[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Rainier]

2 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

Previous failed romantic relationship would indicate possible failure in the future. We haven't seen Adolin taking a look on what didn't work in the past so he can work on fixing them, and if these issues don't resurface in the future because he found the right girl who magically fixed his problems, then what was the point of them? Just a cute plot device for his character?

This drives me nuts, too. The entire first book we only learn three things about Adolin: he's loyal to his father and family, he's a good soldier and a better duelist, and he can't keep a woman interested if his life depends on it. It's a constant theme, and he even goes through several women on the way. Where did that go? What happened to that Adolin? He's just as rich, powerful, and high-status as ever, so that hasn't changed. He's still as handsome and charming as always. There's been no serious changes to his attractiveness to the other sex, or to his method of dealing with them. So where the hell is the Adolin that drives women away? Why are we only ever told about him but we never see him? We get one scene where he turns a date into an excuse to investigate the cut strap, and that's about it for Adolin the womanizer.

It seems like it was just a quick prop for book one, and now that we're past that it doesn't matter anymore so this aspect of his character is discarded.

I expected some conflict between Shallan and Adolin over his checkered dating past, because why else would you give him a checkered dating past? I expected some conflict between Shallan and Adolin at all, because there doesn't seem to be any conflict between any of these characters. All of the conflict is self-contained in each of them, and while that's a nice style for some thing, it left this particular arrangement lacking.

[DeployParachute]

1 hour ago, Humming said:

Yeah, I didn't notice when I read the book that Kaladin is playing with a stone, just like Tien did. It was @PhineasGage who pointed it, I think, but it changed completely how I view now Kaladin's word. A powerful lie, as Pattern would say.

oh come on, I earned like, 20 rep for my post on the stone, you can't just give it to Phineas...

Also, where can I find a link to this "shardpost" rant about how Shalladin is the worst thing ever, the one that I shouldn't subject myself to?  I'm kind of a masochist...

Edited December 19, 2017 by DeployParachute

[evanna]

35 minutes ago, Rainier said:

It seems like it was just a quick prop for book one, and now that we're past that it doesn't matter anymore so this aspect of his character is discarded.

I expected some conflict between Shallan and Adolin over his checkered dating past, because why else would you give him a checkered dating past? 

They're too perfect, aren't they? Yet since we barely can see Adolin's point of view, it's hard to say if he really had changed.
We can see how Adolin acts mostly through Shallan's eyes. I believe this is the point in her life when she is completely convinced that Adolin is what she needs to keep her more or less sane. Shallan wants to see him as an adorable prince charming and this is how we are seeing him as well. So there might be a lot going on with him behind the scenes.

Btw, is there anything about how Adolin sees Shallan in his chapters? Anything like "she was so beautiful"I can't remember that. I like the guy but he seemed to be caring more for his new clothing and Kaladin's reaction to them.

 

@Dreamstorm thanks for finding the original quote. And you've probably just convinced me that I really NEED to re-read these books

Edited December 19, 2017 by evanna

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, evanna said:

I like the guy but he seemed to be caring more for his new clothing and Kaladin's reaction to them.

Kadolin confirmed.

5 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Also, where can I find a link to this "shardpost" rant about how Shalladin is the worst thing ever, the one that I shouldn't subject myself to?  I'm kind of a masochist...

It's actually called Shardcast and you can find it in the menu bar below the header

Edited December 19, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

It seems like it was just a quick prop for book one, and now that we're past that it doesn't matter anymore so this aspect of his character is discarded.

I expected some conflict between Shallan and Adolin over his checkered dating past, because why else would you give him a checkered dating past? I expected some conflict between Shallan and Adolin at all, because there doesn't seem to be any conflict between any of these characters. All of the conflict is self-contained in each of them, and while that's a nice style for some thing, it left this particular arrangement lacking.

I just more and more think that in general Shallan, Kaladin and Adolin's character arcs were a bit of arrested development due to the book's timeline fitting around Dalinar's story, so I strongly suspect (/fervently hope) all three will have big "movement" in their arcs the next book.  (They are obviously quite present in OB, but there isn't that much change in any of them over the course of the book.  You could argue the most that Shallan changed, but it seems to be mostly backsliding.)  I find this WoB to be somewhat supportive of this idea (spoilered for length, but I bolded the pertinent part.)

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

Hello, reddit. I figured I'd pop back in and give you a new update on your book. (I can't believe it's been six months since the last one.)

I'll give a slight spoiler warning to everything below this paragraph. I'm obviously not going to say anything story-wise that would spoil the book. However, I'll be talking a little about the structure of it and what's going on with the draft. I can see some people, very sensitive to spoilers, being concerned about learning anything at all about the book. For you who fit this description, let me just say that I'm approaching the halfway point, but I'm not there yet. The book is going very well, and I'm pleased with it.

Now, on to a deeper discussion of the novel. The first thing I did for Stormlight 3 was work on the flashback sequences for Dalinar and Szeth, as I hadn't yet decided which one would match this book. Through this process, I decided on Dalinar--a decision contrary to my original outline from the start of the series. This didn't concern me; the decision was made based on how the series had developed, and it's always good to expect some things to change during the actual writing. (For example, much of Kaladin's plot from book two was originally slated for book three.) Being too slavish to an outline isn't ever a good thing.

This decision made, I sat down and wrote Dalinar's flashbacks in their entirety. By the end of them, I was completely convinced these were the best paring for this book. That meant, as this was "his" book, I wanted Dalinar viewpoints to show up in all five parts of Oathbringer. You see, Stormlight Books have a kind of strange format. I plot them in this bizarre fashion that likely makes sense only to me. But I'll try to explain.

I split each book into five parts, which group together to form three chunks plotted like individual volumes of a trilogy--with a large, over-arching plot that ties into the five-book arc of the initial sequence, which in turn is half of the complete ten book arc. Each volume, then, has a complete trilogy's worth of arcs and climaxes for the primary characters (Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar) while also having a self-contained flashback sequence, at least one secondary novelette about a character that hasn't had viewpoints so far, and a related short story collection. The "main character" for the book gets, beyond their flashback sequence, a role in each part of the story.

So this means a slightly larger plot for Dalinar, and a slight scaling back for Kaladin and Shallan. (Don't worry; both will be in the book around as much as Kaladin was in Words of Radiance.) Now, the plotting for Oathbringer--as I mentioned--is broken into five chunks, which combine into three chunks. (I call them books here for lack of a better word, as the novel--like each other in the series--is a trilogy bound in one volume. Don't be confused. This doesn't mean I'm splitting the book for publication, only that it is plotted in a way with divisions between the story arcs.)

"Book One" of Oathbringer is all of Part one, plus the interludes. "Book Two" is parts two and three, plus two sets of interludes. "Book Three" is parts four and five, plus interludes. Of these, part two is going to be the biggest oddball, as I'm putting another novelette (separated into six chapters) in here as I feel I need a glimpse at another character. So it's going to have the least focus on primary viewpoints.

I've finished all of the flashbacks, all of the viewpoints for part one, the novelette for part two, and part of the other novelette (the one that will take the place of Szeth from book one or Eshonai from book two.) This, so far, puts me at about 180k words written--with 130k of that being part one in its entirety, and the rest being scenes listed above.

If that sounds confusing, I apologize. These books are somewhat involved to write, and more complex stories demand some outlining that gets a little crazy. However, I did whip up a visualization of the viewpoint structure, which I've posted below.

Stormlight Three Visual Outline

This doesn't give an exact view of scale, as--for instance--part one will likely be the longest of the five. Part Two looks the most full, but it's likely to have only three or four chapters from each of the primary characters (well, one chapter from one of them) so it should actually be shorter than part one. Part Five isn't cut off; I know it will be short, as it was in the other two books.

Next up is to do a revision of part one. (I don't often do revisions in the middle of a book, but with books this long, it's helpful for me to keep the plot under control and maintain continuity through the parts.) From there, I'll write Dalinar for part two, interweave with the appropriate flashbacks and the already-finished novelette, then look at the detailed plotting of the other three viewpoints in the part. I hope to bring this part in at around 70k words, bringing the total book to 200k and getting us to roughly the halfway point.

If this makes your head spin, then don't worry, you can ignore it. It is important to me that these books, though epic in scope, retain a tight view of the primary characters through all volumes. You will see a lot of Dalinar, Kaladin, and Shallan. You will see a moderate amount of Szeth, Eshonai, Jasnah, Adolin, and Navani. There will be a few surprises regarding other characters who have slightly larger places in the plot, but in general, anyone not on one of the above lists isn't allowed more than a viewpoint here or there. (Until the second five books, where our primary characters will shuffle. So you Renarin fans will have to be patient.)

I'm determined to maintain momentum in this story without letting it veer too far away from the primary plot. I feel that a careful outline and a consistent structure are the methods by which I will achieve this.

Thanks for your patience.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/178-stormlight-three-update-2/#e3718

On the actual issue at hand (Adolin's failed relationships), this WoB says it's important:

Spoiler

Blightsong (paraphrased)

Is Adolin's inability to form meaningful relationships important to his overall character arch?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, it is.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/93-odysseycon-2016/#e2694

While these two (from the same signing and from close in time to the one above) make it seem less so:

Spoiler

Questioner

What is the thing with Adolin's serial dating? Is it just...?

Brandon Sanderson

He is bad with relationships, and that's just it. He's a little bit scared of being good at relationships, and so there's some kind of unconscious sabotaging going on. But yeah, he's young and he's bad at relationships.

Questioner

He is bad with relationships, and that's just it. He's a little bit scared of being good at relationships, and so there's some kind of unconscious sabotaging going on. But yeah, he's young and he's bad at relationships.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13-calamity-austin-signing/#e4892

Questioner

Are we ever going to find out about all of Adolin’s failed relationships?

Brandon Sanderson

Probably a little bit more. Not a ton. But a little bit more.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/13-calamity-austin-signing/#e4999

So who the storm knows.  But I hope it comes up again, as right now the "things that never came to anything" list for Adolin is pretty long!

34 minutes ago, evanna said:

Btw, is there anything about how Adolin sees Shallan in his chapters? Anything like "she was so beautiful"I can't remember that. I like the guy but he seemed to be caring more for his new clothing and Kaladin's reaction to them.

Shockingly little.  Before OB, I did a full look into his viewpoints in WoR, and there was really just one laundry list of good traits (right after the highstorm date) and maybe one of two other mentions, and besides that, he doesn't even seem to think about her.  I found it really, really odd.  I haven't done a full look in OB, but but I remember thinking that the most he thinks about his relationship with Shallan is in respect to how he thinks she's into Kaladin, and even then it comes across as mild annoyance more than being actually upset.  (PS: Yay for rereads!  The books are even better upon repeat!)

ETA: In spoiler, my list of Shallan mentions in Adolin veiwpoints in WoR and preview chapters in OB at that time.

Spoiler

• WOR Ch. 37, Matter of Perspective: First time he sees Shalln; he thinks she's hot when she walks by.
• WOR Ch. 50, Uncut Gems: Immediately after wine/highstorm date.  Most of this is about Sadeas and brooding on that.  He thinks about Shallan, mentioning she is marvelous, exotic, witty, not smothered in Alethi propriety, smart and doesn't make him feel stupid.
• WOR Ch. 51, Heirs: Eshonai meeting, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 53, Perfection: Elit duel and aftermath, this is the only time I found where we see a Shallan/Adolin interaction from Adolin's perspective, he thinks he's not unhappy to see her and that their relationship is awkward due to not knowing where they stand.
• WOR Ch. 56, Whitespine Uncaged: Four on one duel, burns Shallan's glyph and tells Navani she is quite marvelous. 
• WOR Ch. 81, The Last Day: Start of Battle of Narak, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 82, For Glory Lit: Battle of Narak, mentions Shallan as telling him rock formations are building.
• WOR Ch. 83, Time's Illusion: Battle of Narak, tells Skar Shallan is a clever woman.
• WOR Ch. 84, The One Who Saves: Battle of Narak, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 85, Swallowed by the Sky: Szeth meeting/fight, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 89, The Four: Killing Sadeas, notes Shallan may be the most important woman in the world because she is a Radiant and wonders how he fits in.
• OB, Ch. 2, One Problem Solved: Wandering Urithiru, no mention of Shallan.
• OB, Ch. 10, Distractions: Introspection with Gallant, no mention of Shallan.

32 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Kadolin confirmed.

Edited December 19, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Humming]

25 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

oh come on, I earned like, 20 rep for my post on the stone, you can't just give it to Phineas...

My bad, sorry hahah 

[Rainier]

43 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I just more and more think that in general Shallan, Kaladin and Adolin's character arcs were a bit of arrested development due to the book's timeline fitting around Dalinar's story, so I strongly suspect (/fervently hope) all three will have big "movement" in their arcs the next book.

Yeah, I think it's an example of middle-book syndrome. Book 2 of 3 (or 3 of 5 in this case) is always a hard one to write. Nothing new can really be introduced, and nothing old can really be settled, but stuff needs to happen in the time between introducing the problem and solving the problem. Given what was said about Kaladin's book 2 story being pushed into book 3 makes me think his book 3 story may have gotten pushed into book 4, or at least the parts relevant to this thread. 

As for Adolin, I interpret those WoB as saying that this thing is Adolin's characterization. He's not a main character, so he's not going to get a lot of screentime and we're not going to get inside his head as much, but there's got to be something that makes Adolin special and not just Prince Arthur. In this case, it's his trouble in relationships. 

On a tangent, did we ever get a confirmed explanation of who is what in the outline?

I wrote up a whole lot and then decided to make my own topic.

[Dreamstorm]

Ok... so inspired @evanna's question I revived my prior scholarship (lol) and went through all of Adolin's viewpoints in OB to catalog when he thought about Shallan.  (Note I don't mention every time they interact and speak in a viewpoint, just when he has a thought about her.)  I include a note of two of my own in here about their interactions as presented by Adolin, and then a lot of "Kadolin" notes because as you will see - Adolin spends way more time thinking about, assisting and wanting to be around Kaladin than he does in relation to Shallan.  Honestly... going by Adolin's viewpoints, one would think he has stronger feelings for Kaladin!  Am I crazy??  I know there are plenty of Adolin/Shallan interactions which we see from Shallan's perspective, but the difference in the time we see Adolin focusing on Kaladin vs. Shallan in Adolin's viewpoints is pretty drastic.  Of particular note is that Adolin doesn't notice that Shallan is exhausted to the point of collapse when escaping the Kholinar oathgate in Shadesmar while he was busy focusing on Kaladin and how Adolin chooses to go with Kaladin when they split up in Celebrant.  Adolin also physically admires Kaladin more often then he physically admires Shallan.  (His physical admiration of Shallan seems to be confined to liking her Veil outfit too - it gets a few mentions - when that is the persona he's now refusing to be intimate with.)  I also want to note that in the Deadeye chapter, the cheesy line he gives Shallan is actually not aligned from his inner actions/thoughts as told to us just previously in the chapter; this makes me doubt the veracity (from an Adolin truthfulness perspective) of the other cheesy lines he gives her.

Anyway... I tried to be very objective in the fact collecting and to clearly delineate my own thoughts, but let me know if I stray from that path 

• WOR Ch. 37, Matter of Perspective: First time he sees Shallan; he thinks she's hot when she walks by.
• WOR Ch. 50, Uncut Gems: Immediately after wine/highstorm date.  Most of this is about Sadeas and brooding on that.  He thinks about Shallan, mentioning she is marvelous, exotic, witty, not smothered in Alethi propriety, smart and doesn't make him feel stupid.
• WOR Ch. 51, Heirs: Eshonai meeting, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 53, Perfection: Elit duel and aftermath, this is the only time I found where we see a Shallan/Adolin interaction from Adolin's perspective, he thinks he's not unhappy to see her and that their relationship is awkward due to not knowing where they stand.
• WOR Ch. 56, Whitespine Uncaged: Four on one duel, burns Shallan's glyph and tells Navani she is quite marvelous. 
• WOR Ch. 81, The Last Day: Start of Battle of Narak, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 82, For Glory Lit: Battle of Narak, mentions Shallan as telling him rock formations are building.
• WOR Ch. 83, Time's Illusion: Battle of Narak, tells Skar Shallan is a clever woman.
• WOR Ch. 84, The One Who Saves: Battle of Narak, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 85, Swallowed by the Sky: Szeth meeting/fight, no mention of Shallan.
• WOR Ch. 89, The Four: Killing Sadeas, notes Shallan may be the most important woman in the world because she is a Radiant and wonders how he fits in.
• OB, Ch. 2, One Problem Solved: Wandering Urithiru, no mention of Shallan.
• OB, Ch. 10, Distractions: Introspection with Gallant, no mention of Shallan.
• OB Ch. 83, Crimson to Break: Pre-Kholinar palace assault and first part of assault, mentions fretting about Shallan’s return the night before, checks glyphward he had Shallan make, thinks Shallan is fetching in her Veil outfit, finds it strange to see Shallan on the front lines, tells Shallan she has good form with Patternblade. (Kadolin note – Adolin giving Kaladin the Bridge 4 salute is sooooo adorable.  He’s between terrified and in awe of Kaladin this whole chapter.  Be still my beating heart!)
• OB Ch. 85, Grieve Later: Trying to get through the oathfate, talks to Shallan about Sja-anat but no inner monlogue.
• OB Ch. 87, This Place: Arrival in Shadesmar, no inner monologue about Shallan but mentions he hears her screaming.
• OB, Ch. 89, Damnation: Escaping the oathgate in Shadesmar, no inner monologue about Shallan in first portion, notes Shallan looks close to collapse towards the end and catches her as she falls.  (Kadolin note – Adolin is so adorable with Kaladin here helping him get through his shock, and he ignores Shallan while doing so until she collapses with exhaustion.)
• OB, Ch. 93, Kata: Continuing through Shadesmar, notes Shallan can see what the beads represent which leads to musing on his place in the new Radiant-world, grins stupidly when Shallan interrupts the kata and notes she’s still wearing her Veil outfit.  (Kadolin note – Adolin’s second thought upon waking (after musing over killing Sadeas) is to wonder if Kaladin slept.  They share a “not convinced” glance over Azure’s vague history.  Can they be any cuter?!?!)
• OB, Ch. 101, Deadeye: Adolin getting dressed to arrive in Celebrant, notes Shallan fits her clothes from a pure measurement standpoint but that the cut wasn’t flattering, gets distracted by the highstorm when Shallan asks him to sew her a skirt, when Shallan asks if she looks terrible, he says “I don’t think you’re capable of looking terrible. In all their color [nb. the highstorms], even those clouds can’t compete” [DS note – I find it odd that even though he says this line we see something different from his actual viewpoint as (i) he previously got distracted by those very same highstorm clouds while she talking and cuts off their conversation and (ii) his stated opinion of her appearance directly contrasts his inner monologue where he says her outfit isn’t flattering; yes, you often "white lie" in relationships to make your partner feels better/more important, but I think it says something that the cheesy line Brandon chose to show us from Adolin's perspective is one which is easily contradicted in-text], notes Shallan got excited as they approach Celebrant.   (Kadolin note – Adolin first notices Kaladin’s outfit as “as man trying to wear his childhood suit; he’d never button that coat across his broad chest.”  You guys – the addition of “broad chest” is how these things are noticed in a romance novel, no joke.  Also, when they split up in Celebrant, Adolin asks Shallan if she would rather change money or find a ship; Shallan says she wants to find a ship; and Adolin then says they should split up the radiants and goes with Kaladin.  He actually chooses to go with Kaladin over Shallan.  I just can’t anymore!!!)
• OB, Ch. 108, Honor’s Path: On the honorspren ship, notices Shallan leering [nb. Adolin’s word] at Kaladin and that he couldn’t deny that he had noticed this, sighs and walks away noting it’s hard to compete with Kaladin and speaks to Pattern about it and how can’t blame Kaladin for being the way he is.  (Kadolin note: Notes Kaladin has a “heroic figure – determined, undaunted” in his “crisp Wall Guard uniform.”  Always up on Kaladin’s style and how he likes the way it looks... When they use the spyglass to see the chasing Fused, Kaladin tries to hand it to Adolin but Shallan snatches it away.  Why you getting in between them, girl??)
• OB, Ch. 117, Champion with Nine Shadows: Fighting the fused before the Thaylen City oathgate (Maya saving Adolin), no inner monologue about Shallan.
• OB, Ch. 120, The Spear that Would Not Break: Setting off to fight in TC after being healed and fighting, his most “in awe” passage about Shallan as he notes “The white clothing seemed to glow, the red hair a striking swatch, as Stormlight rose from her… She wove her power, and an army climbed from the ground around her”, notes Shallan’s Adolin illusion is a windrunner and that he “can’t take that”, one mention of Shallan in later viewpoint sections (notes her distraction is working well).

ETA: Wanted to clarify that as much I would love, love, love for Kadolin to happen, I don't think we're supposed to think it will.  Like others point out, Adolin a bit hero-worships and has a strong affection for Kaladin, but (sadly for me, lol) I don't think we're supposed to read it as romantic.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Vissy]

Alright, I'm going to put one foot aboard S/S Kadolin and sail with one foot in both ships. Shalladin and Kadolin shall be my new shoes.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Alright, I'm going to put one foot aboard S/S Kadolin and sail with one foot in both ships. Shalladin and Kadolin shall be my new shoes.

I have to admit, that the signs are pretty damnation there. Well, on Adolin's side.

Edited December 19, 2017 by SLNC

[Vissy]

1 minute ago, SLNC said:

I have to admit, that the signs are pretty damnation there. Well, on Adolin's side.

Yeah, from Adolin's perspective only I think too. Kaladin has zero romantic interest in Adolin, as far as I read the text. I am aboard Kadolin from Adolin's perspective, though. 

Edited December 19, 2017 by Vissy

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Vissy said:

I am aboard Kadolin from Adolin's perspective, though.

I am too. Everything is better than that cheesy boredom, that is Shadolin. 

[Vissy]

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I am too. Everything is better than that cheesy boredom, that is Shadolin. 

I kinda like Shadolin, as long as they work out their issues in a satisfying manner. But then that's my stipulation to all of the ships so... xD

Edited December 19, 2017 by Vissy

[evanna]

Storms, I didn't assume there were that many Kadolin lines in OB  Ha, I already know what I will be looking for in the next books!

Anyway, I think that Adolin's interest in Kaladin is driven by somewhat different reasons. For the first time in his life, Adolin isn't in the middle of attention and he can "hardly compete to that". He might be trying to figure out how did it come to the point where "the storming bridgeboy" is the actual hero. He definitely can see what Kaladin can do and looks up to him, but at the same time he loses part of his confidence. Seeing Kaladin's growth is quite a turning point in Adolin's life and his way of perceiving the world, so it seems natural that he wants to keep an eye on him.

 

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I am too. Everything is better than that cheesy boredom, that is Shadolin

If they are going to be as cheesy and rainbow cute in the next books as they were at the meeting with Dalinar, I will have to grunt and roll my eyes all the time, unless Kaladin do it. Yeah, this is probably why I am waiting subconsciously for some drama to come...

[Rainier]

19 minutes ago, evanna said:

Anyway, I think that Adolin's interest in Kaladin is driven by somewhat different reasons. For the first time in his life, Adolin isn't in the middle of attention and he can "hardly compete to that". He might be trying to figure out how did it come to the point where "the storming bridgeboy" is the actual hero. He definitely can see what Kaladin can do and looks up to him, but at the same time he loses part of his confidence. Seeing Kaladin's growth is quite a turning point in Adolin's life and his way of perceiving the world, so it seems natural that he wants to keep an eye on him.

I'm going to agree here, and mention that it very close to what Elhokar is doing, too. Elhokar also notices that Kaladin just draws people to him, that he naturally steps into a leadership role, and is acclaimed as a hero. Like Adolin, Elhokar attempts to get Kaladin to teach him, or show him what to do, or simply keep him around so some heroism rubs off. 

It's funny how alike the two cousins are, especially in their reaction to the darkeyed bridgeboy Radiant.

[Dreamstorm]

@SLNC and @Vissy even one foot on tropical schooner Kadolin works for me! They are my heart ship for all time, even if we have enough WoB’s to make me believe it is highly, highly, highly unlikely; I put a couple below if anyone cares to read. (And as much as I would applaud Brandon for making as popular and prominent a character as Adolin gay, I don’t think it would be a smart decision commercially as I’ve seen authors with more liberal fanbases be panned for making a major character gay, as sad as that is in this day and age.)

Besides #kadolin , what reading these Adolin veiwpoints has shown me is that Adolin seems to be pretending in this relationship possibly as much as Shallan is... even if his feelings for Kaladin are not romantic (which I doubt they will turn out to be, sigh), he still is choosing Kaladin over Shallan in various situations and admiring him more than Shallan. That means something that this is what we are shown in the limited Adolin veiwpoints we have to work with. We also have evidence that Adolin doesn’t actually believe at least some of these cheesy lines he’s feeding Shallan... So only part of Shallan wants to be with Adolin and Adolin seems to be phoning it with Shallan...? Hmmm....

Quote

Questioner

Do you have any, or will you ever write a gay character into any of your books?

Brandon Sanderson

There are several. Drehy, in The Stormlight Archive, the bridgeman is gay, because he's based off a good friend of mine who's gay. Ranette in the Wax & Wayne books, the woman that Wayne's in love with, she's gay, and it's hinted at in the first book. By the second book, they're like "Dude, she's gay, just leave her alone." So yes, I have written gay characters. I've never written a gay main viewpoint character, maybe someday I will, it's not something I've done yet.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/61-firefight-seattle-ubooks-signing/#e1303

I guess I could be accused of not giving them full representation because of the fact that they usually have minor roles. The truth is that I'm worried I'd just do a poor job of it if I tried to write from their viewpoint; being gay is one of those things that tends to be very dominant in a person's way of seeing the world. It seems that there are a lot of pitfalls that I could saunter right into. I've think I've learned, after a lot of work, how to write female characters who (hopefully) don't feel wrong. However, I haven't taken the dive in trying to figure out how to write a gay or lesbian character. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/40-the-alloy-of-law-annotations/#e705 (excerpted)

 

[enryu]

20 hours ago, SLNC said:

Causally betrothed. They could have broken off the engagement at any point.

Well, you see, Syl has a very... simplistic view of that. A causal betrothal is no oath, so there is nothing, that can be broken. She doesn't see the immorality, because morality is pretty much a human social construct. She is a spren after all.

 

15 hours ago, Humming said:

 

Thanks for the welcome! I'll check the link as soon as I can.

----

Sorry, but I can't understand the hatred in your post, like Shallan was acting like some kind of immoral human being. 

Shallan and Adolin are bethroted, yes, but since when a legal agreement must be a barrier for new feelings? You used the word 'lusted', but I we assume that Shallan was lusting for Kaladin, what was she doing for Adolin? There are a lot of times where she notes 'how hot he is' like it was some cheap Twilight scene. Shallan totally lusts after Adolin, but that doesnt stop her from developing feelings for Adolin.

The problem is that (in my opinion) Veil and Radiant sided with these new emotions flowing towards Kaladin, proving that Shallan is fractured almost as 3 independent individuals, and the Shallan that is in love with Adolin and rushes to a marriage because she suddenly felt the urge to, is denying that Veil and Radiant are part of her true self, as well as the feelings for Kaladin.

It's just her tactic again, deny the problem, shove it the more deep you can, and carry on until you explode.

And about Syl, well. First of all, she's bonded with Kaladin, not with Shallan nor Adolin. What's she supposed to do? An informal bethrotal is not an Oath, spren are not ruled by a legal system mirroring the one in Roshar. Why would she care about a single word of 'yeah, we are kinda going to marry, maybe'.

For her, Kaladin chasing the woman he seems to love is not an immoral act, because he is a protector, he is not forbidden to love. Did the Stormfather for example complain because Dalinar married the widow of his brother? If I recall correctly, ardents were Ned Flanders-judgemental because they were flirting. But hey, the Stormfather was totally fine with it because he didn't see it as wrong or immoral.

 

I feel confused. My memory of Words of Radiance and Way of Kings is sort of hazy, was it indicated somewhere in those books that Alethi betrothals are commonly broken and not a big deal? 

I was under the impression that a betrothal is essentially the penultimate step in a relationship - that is, we are going to get married, but we just haven't gotten around to it yet. That is to say, being betrothed is as committed as two people can be to a relationship, short of actual marriage.

And yes, I don't think that it is beyond the pale to suggest that it is immoral to have unfaithful thoughts when you are in a committed relationship. Certainly it happens in real life, but the appropriate response is to try to suppress unfaithful thoughts, or to break off the relationship if that can't be done. (Shallan does make a mild effort to do the former, and Adolin does make an attempt at doing the latter). The way I see it, the whole point of being in a relationship is that the people in it have made their choice, and they're willing to stick with that choice for as long as the relationship continues. And if the people in that relationship marry, then they're willing to stick with their choice for the rest of their lives.

I personally cannot fathom how people can enjoy reading love triangles where two of the people are already in a committed relationship.

To me, the only thing more disgusting than the love triangle in this book would be if the love triangle continues into the next book, after Shallan and Adolin marry. I find the idea of reading about that sort of marital strife to be nauseating in the extreme.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, enryu said:

I feel confused. My memory of Words of Radiance and Way of Kings is sort of hazy, was it indicated somewhere in those books that Alethi betrothals are commonly broken and not a big deal? 

I was under the impression that a betrothal is essentially the penultimate step in a relationship - that is, we are going to get married, but we just haven't gotten around to it yet. That is to say, being betrothed is as committed as two people can be to a relationship, short of actual marriage.

Shallan often fears that Adolin will break off the betrothal and, well, at the end of OB, he actually is very close to doing it. It never was a full commitment. It is also clarified as such at the beginning of WoR, when Jasnah arranges it.

1 hour ago, enryu said:

And yes, I don't think that it is beyond the pale to suggest that it is immoral to have unfaithful thoughts when you are in a committed relationship. Certainly it happens in real life, but the appropriate response is to try to suppress unfaithful thoughts, or to break off the relationship if that can't be done. (Shallan does make a mild effort to do the former, and Adolin does make an attempt at doing the latter). The way I see it, the whole point of being in a relationship is that the people in it have made their choice, and they're willing to stick with that choice for as long as the relationship continues. And if the people in that relationship marry, then they're willing to stick with their choice for the rest of their lives.

I personally cannot fathom how people can enjoy reading love triangles where two of the people are already in a committed relationship.

To me, the only thing more disgusting than the love triangle in this book would be if the love triangle continues into the next book, after Shallan and Adolin marry. I find the idea of reading about that sort of marital strife to be nauseating in the extreme.

Now this is getting into worldviews. I, personally, am a bit more liberal in that and think, that happiness in a relationship > keeping up a marriage. I'd always rather see a break up than constant conflict, that slowly eats away at our characters, but that could be because I have first-hand knowledge with that (my parents).

I also think, that the choice to marry should always be made when both parties are at their full mental capacity. Shallan is mentally ill. In my eyes, she wasn't mentally capable to make the choice she made.

But I can understand, if you differ with me in that.

To get back to the book:

I actually had a bit of an Eureka moment. Brandon already has shown us an out, even if the Vorin church doesn't permit a divorce.

The Stormfather.

Dalinar and Navani get married before the Stormfather, because the Vorin church didn't want to marry them. The Stormfather even tells Navani, that she has broken oaths before and still accepts her oath to Dalinar. I think, that could be the same with Kaladin and Shallan, if Adolin and Shallan break up. Oaths can be anulled, if there is mutual consent and Adolin already was willing to step back. I do think, that the Stormfather would accept that. While personaShallan is a "good Vorin girl", she has streaks of heresy, which actually makes me believe that that is actually a part of realShallan. 

So who cares about the Vorin church? The SF is the higher authority anyway.

Also wouldn't it be thematically beautiful for two KRs to be married in front of the Stormfather?

Edited December 20, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

54 minutes ago, enryu said:

I feel confused. My memory of Words of Radiance and Way of Kings is sort of hazy, was it indicated somewhere in those books that Alethi betrothals are commonly broken and not a big deal? 

I was under the impression that a betrothal is essentially the penultimate step in a relationship - that is, we are going to get married, but we just haven't gotten around to it yet. That is to say, being betrothed is as committed as two people can be to a relationship, short of actual marriage.

They were causally betrothed, which is a step below being officially betrothed - it seems akin to exclusively dating the way it’s discussed. (See Ch 1 Santhid and Ch 49 Watching the World Transform in WoR for some discussion.) But I don’t think this would lessen your distaste, as it is an exclusive romantic relationship, just one where “oaths” (ie official promises) have not been spoken yet. The lack of oaths is what people were trying to say in the quotes above (a spren wouldn’t understand a commitment without the oath; note Kaladin gets it and even tells Syl she’s not understanding correctly.)

57 minutes ago, enryu said:

And yes, I don't think that it is beyond the pale to suggest that it is immoral to have unfaithful thoughts when you are in a committed relationship. Certainly it happens in real life, but the appropriate response is to try to suppress unfaithful thoughts, or to break off the relationship if that can't be done. (Shallan does make a mild effort to do the former, and Adolin does make an attempt at doing the latter). The way I see it, the whole point of being in a relationship is that the people in it have made their choice, and they're willing to stick with that choice for as long as the relationship continues. And if the people in that relationship marry, then they're willing to stick with their choice for the rest of their lives.

I find your suppression language a little odd because the idea of suppressing anything has a very unhealthy connotation. That said, I agree that when you are in a committed relationship and you have romantic feelings outside of your  committed relationship you should either (i) resolve those feelings and continue with your committed relationship or (ii) end that committed relationship. Shallan instead chooses to intensify her commitment (by progressing to marriage) while simply attempting to ignore (or as she puts it, stuff to the back of her brain) her feelings for Kaladin. But if you truly believe those feelings should be “suppressed”, then she does this rather well because they are shoved onto an alter and that alter is subjugated. So I guess you should be happy with that? I think most of us here don’t think she handled it well, and given the state of her feelings, she should have chosen no relationship with either (so option two which you consider an acceptable choice.)

1 hour ago, enryu said:

I personally cannot fathom how people can enjoy reading love triangles where two of the people are already in a committed relationship.

To me, the only thing more disgusting than the love triangle in this book would be if the love triangle continues into the next book, after Shallan and Adolin marry. I find the idea of reading about that sort of marital strife to be nauseating in the extreme.

In my personal opinion, this was not a fun fluffy love triangle where our heroine just can’t figure out which boy to kiss (I find those annoying) but a literary device to show just how fractured and confused Shallan has become. All three character participants were extremely uncomfortable by the feelings present (Kaladin didn’t want his feelings for Shallan, Shallan didn’t want her feelings for Kaladin, Adolin didn’t want Shallan to have feelings for Kaladin), so I don’t think it was supposed to be an enjoyable experience. Especially against the backdrop of Shallan’s increasingly more severe mental illness. I actually find the reaction that Shallan choosing Adolin was great conclusion to their cute relationship to be emotionally off for this exact reason; none of this was fun to read. But SA often isn’t fun as it grapples with hard, painful issues; that’s the nature of Radiance, they are all broken. 

I also hope we don’t see Kaladin as part of Adolin and Shallan’s marriage issues. They have plenty of issues on their own without him, so I think (and hope) the termination of their relationship will not involve him. If you are morally opposed to the ending of a marriage, I can’t help you there though, except that I think the same parameters apply to any marital issue: you have to resolve it or end the relationship. I believe Adolin and Shallan will have issues they cannot resolve, and thus will hopefully do what they should have done in OB (and what Adolin seems to have wanted) and end the relationship. 

[Guest]

36 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I also hope we don’t see Kaladin as part of Adolin and Shallan’s marriage issues. They have plenty of issues on their own without him, so I think (and hope) the termination of their relationship will not involve him.

I... do hope that as well, but I'm not holding my breath. Adolin already had doubts about Shallan's commitment and gave her an out for her to be with Kaladin. I think, that if marriage troubles will occur, that this will come up again. It is kind of destined to. Kaladin is still part of the equation. I don't think he will actively interfere though.

[PhineasGage]

4 hours ago, enryu said:

I was under the impression that a betrothal is essentially the penultimate step in a relationship - that is, we are going to get married, but we just haven't gotten around to it yet. That is to say, being betrothed is as committed as two people can be to a relationship, short of actual marriage.

And yes, I don't think that it is beyond the pale to suggest that it is immoral to have unfaithful thoughts when you are in a committed relationship. Certainly it happens in real life, but the appropriate response is to try to suppress unfaithful thoughts, or to break off the relationship if that can't be done. (Shallan does make a mild effort to do the former, and Adolin does make an attempt at doing the latter). The way I see it, the whole point of being in a relationship is that the people in it have made their choice, and they're willing to stick with that choice for as long as the relationship continues. And if the people in that relationship marry, then they're willing to stick with their choice for the rest of their lives.

I personally cannot fathom how people can enjoy reading love triangles where two of the people are already in a committed relationship.

To me, the only thing more disgusting than the love triangle in this book would be if the love triangle continues into the next book, after Shallan and Adolin marry. I find the idea of reading about that sort of marital strife to be nauseating in the extreme.

I must admit I am a little confused by your position. I'll explain why I feel this way and if you could answer my points t help me I'd be grateful.

1) Shallan and Adolin are not "formally" betrothed. Shallan says this to Adolin during their highstorm date - that they are "maybe supposed to get married kinda" because the betrothal is not like an engagement IRL. It is more like exclusive dating. 

2) Shallan and Adolin don't actually know each other very well. They've only known each other for a few months at this point (?4-5 months iirc) most of which they only meet in public rather than having an opportunity to have deep and meaningful conversations. 

3) Shallan has expected to have an arranged marriage her whole life and has only had a recent taste of freedom. Adolin represents her expected outcome, Kaladin her freedom to choose. She "chooses" to stick with her expected outcome because it is a safe and known quantity.

4) Shallan is only 17/18 years old. Most people don't commit at this point, or if they do, their relationships are statistically likely to fail.

5) I firmly believe that you shouldn't commit to a relationship if you are conflicted about it. Shallan makes a mistake that is pretty typical of teenagers/young adults - they over commit to a relationship because they want to be in a relationship more than they care about whether it is the "right" relationship. I think Adolin is doing this too - indeed he more or less admits it when he says he has trouble with relationships to Kaladin in WoR.

 

I agree that a person shouldn't commit to marriage unless they are prepared to live with that decision. That being said, people grow and change. Life throws things at you that you cannot always predict. So I believe that people should have the option to end the marriage if that is the better option than staying together. Shallan and Adolin are marrying in less than perfect circumstances - one or both of them are not as committed as they should be. They are young, and may be making a mistake. Should they suffer the rest of their lives for this mistake simply to conform to societal norms? It would be better for them not to marry at this point in their relationship - but it is too late for that now - they've already committed. A fully integrated Shallan at the age of 27 might be a very different person from the fractured 17year old Shallan we know now. 

I don't condemn Shallan for her situation - she cannot help finding Kaladin attractive (storms, Adolin seems to  ) and they have a connection that she couldn't have predicted. She agreed to the causal to Adolin out of need - she needed to protect her family. It wasn't like she expected to "love" him. No-one else thought it was necessary for them to love each other either - that is the basis for arranged marriages. She doesn't do anything with Kaladin other than "look" at him - she doesn't act on her feelings. 

 

As to Kadolin - I am afraid that despite the evidence, I just can't get on board - mainly because Kaladin isn't interested in Adolin at all as far as I can see, and I don't need Adolin to pine for him and Shallan (lol). I could see Adolin being bisexual though - he certainly seems to appreciate male beauty as much as female beauty. I just don't think he would act on it because Vorin society must encourage lighteyes to partner with the opposite sex (Adolin will need someone to read and write for him unless he follows Dalinar's example). 

I think we will see Adolin's history of being a bit of a player come back in SA4. By then, he'll be bored of Shallan's novelty and be looking for more. He won't act on it imo, but he will probably let his eyes wander again (as they did in WoR). He and Shallan will present an image of the perfect lighteyed couple - attractive, intelligent (up to a point), wealthy, accomplished (up to a point), and obviously committed. I believe they will believe this image themselves, but it will hide a deeper truth that neither of them is actually as committed as they pretend to be. 

 

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

As to Kadolin - I am afraid that despite the evidence, I just can't get on board - mainly because Kaladin isn't interested in Adolin at all as far as I can see, and I don't need Adolin to pine for him and Shallan (lol). I could see Adolin being bisexual though - he certainly seems to appreciate male beauty as much as female beauty. I just don't think he would act on it because Vorin society must encourage lighteyes to partner with the opposite sex (Adolin will need someone to read and write for him unless he follows Dalinar's example). 

Of course it is completely unrealistic

It is just funny how the pointers are there. Even more than his attraction to Shallan. So much so, that I'm for some reason beginning to doubt the intensity of it, but well, I'm obviously a bit biased.

[Ailvara]

6 hours ago, SLNC said:

I... do hope that as well, but I'm not holding my breath. Adolin already had doubts about Shallan's commitment and gave her an out for her to be with Kaladin. I think, that if marriage troubles will occur, that this will come up again. It is kind of destined to. Kaladin is still part of the equation. I don't think he will actively interfere though.

I think it will be as it has been - Kaladin will be a part of their issues, but on the level of Shallan's head only, without his actual involvement.

I am now watching the creative writing videos as a background for my work, and I need to share another lovely piece:

Quote

You basically, in a lot of relationship plots, you are starting off with two people who look like they're completely wrong for each other and then, through the course of the plot you're showing how their various differences actually improve each others lives. And you do that incrementally.

https://youtu.be/Ww3VhMxxJNA?list=PLPdJIpbJfgiR-pZysJ7nM9TjiJ-X-MH1Q&t=303

[Krios]

5 hours ago, SLNC said:

Of course it is completely unrealistic

It is just funny how the pointers are there. Even more than his attraction to Shallan. So much so, that I'm for some reason beginning to doubt the intensity of it, but well, I'm obviously a bit biased.

Well Im still hoping for Kaladin-Shallan-Adolin threesome scene told trough Syl, Pattern and a reawakend Maya.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Krios

[Dreamstorm]

2 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I am now watching the creative writing videos as a background for my work, and I need to share another lovely piece:

Quote

You basically, in a lot of relationship plots, you are starting off with two people who look like they're completely wrong for each other and then, through the course of the plot you're showing how their various differences actually improve each others lives. And you do that incrementally.

https://youtu.be/Ww3VhMxxJNA?list=PLPdJIpbJfgiR-pZysJ7nM9TjiJ-X-MH1Q&t=303

I am going down a rabbit hole with these videos, but I loved this one.  Especially when he's talking about promises and fulfilling them or subverting, and in response to a question from a student (6min mark) he says that if you're going to subvert a promise you need to foreshadow appropriately...   And then you have to have what happens be way cooler than what they (the readers) are imagining, so they are more excited about that then what they lost.