Harbour

[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

2,388 posts in this topic

12 hours ago, Gunzaan said:

I love this board and the varied opinions. I don’t agree with most of them.  This is a glaring example of plain ignorance.

”Who is clearly better than both of them”

That’s an absolute statement that you can’t quantify.

And honestly, I appreciate that statement, even though I don’t agree.  At least he/she has a strong opinion.  I’ve seen a few instances in this thread where someone calls someone out for saying a similar statement.  Grow a thicker skin and live in the real world. People have completely different opinions and perspectives and they are allowed to express them.  If you can’t deal with it, that’s on you, not their individual perspective/opinion.

The ability to look past our gut feelings/instinct to engage with an argument in good faith notwithstanding... there are ways to disagree with other people that are less prone to escalation. Calling someone ignorant and demanding that others engage in debates the way that you like is more conducive to causing fights than actually moving the discussion ahead in a productive way. With this topic especially, tensions are already a little higher than in other threads, and it would be helpful if we all were more conscious of our tones rather than less. The standard of debate only lowers when we get heated and start sniping at each other.

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Good Morning Good Morning!

Sorry I've been afk for a bit (bet you were all a little relieved!) Life suddenly got a little busy.

I've enjoyed trying to catch up with y'all - but I haven't yet managed to read @Ailvara's notes and make comments. I will do so sometime today though :) I'm really looking forward to it!

Ok, on to thread comments:

On 13/12/2017 at 6:22 PM, aemetha said:

I think you're reading a little too much into that there. My interpretation of that scene is that she is saying Veil remembers what Shallan has experienced, but because Shallan has delineated them, she doesn't have an emotional response as if it happened to her as Veil, she has a response as if it happened to someone else - a close friend perhaps is a good analogy. That's basically how dissociative disorders work in terms of insulating the main persona from the trauma

On 13/12/2017 at 4:56 PM, insert_anagram_here said:

So Veil existed back when Shallan had her sword, back before she said the oaths, back when she was very young. She says that "Veil hadn’t lived through those days" but this contradicts the previous statements AND Pattern hums in warning, which means he knows that is a lie too.

So Veil is not necessarily someone that was created recently in WoR, but possibly Shallan's original personality. 

This is a really interesting question that we will presumably get an answer to. Here is my personal take on it (it lies somewhere between your two opinions)

TrueShallan is the combination of all three of Radiant, Veil and personaShallan, plus the interactions that arise from the personality traits that she has artificially separated. KInd of like the resonance from who surges - its a form of emergent complxexity. 

Whilst Veil and Radiant were not named before trueShallan fractured, they did exist as part of trueShallan and thus whilst they don't have the autobiographical memories that personaShallan has, they are aware of those autobiographical memories because in a sense they did experience them. They each (for example) also will consider the physical body (that we could call bodyShallan) as their own - and thus each likely has a bond with Pattern - but the trick is that each bond is weaker than a full nahel bond because she has split herself 3 ways.

So in this sense, personaShallan, Veil, and Radiant each have access to surgebinding and the Patternblade but they only do these things best when they stand united (eg at TC). I suspect this might be why Pattern seems to be going backwards - only a fragment of the bond is active at any one moment. 

I don't think that Veil is more like trueShallan than personaShallan is. Veil is perhaps more like the person trueShallan might have been had she not lived the life she has, but we are a product of our experiences as well as our inbuilt personalities so personaShallan (likely more a product of environment including education) is as "real" as Veil because that is how she has been taught to think and behave. That being said, this means that her personality traits are inherently conflicting with her upbringing and I can see that causing strife.

On 13/12/2017 at 9:26 PM, Starla said:
Quote

“You don’t look surprised about this,” Shallan said as she started changing.

“I was suspicious when Veil … when you told me to go on this mission,” she said. “Then I saw the illusions, and guessed.” She paused. “I had it reversed. I thought Brightness Shallan was the persona. But the spy— that’s the false identity.” 

“Wrong,” Shallan said. “They’re both equally false.” Once dressed, she flipped through her sketchbook and found a drawing of Lyn in her scouting uniform. Perfect. “Go tell Brightlord Kaladin I’m already out and exploring, and that he should meet me in about an hour.”

So how does this reconcile with the common notion that the “Shallan" that Adolin identifies at the end of the book is the “real” Shallan? I don’t see that end-of-book Shallan is any different from the Shallan in this scene in Kholinar. I personally don’t think we’ve seen the real full Shallan in the books yet, though I think we came close during the Re-Shephir encounter. It is my interpretation (like many others in this thread) that all of her fragmented personas, including Shallan, Veil, and Radiant, make up the larger True Shallan, which is a single individual in the Spiritual Realm, but fragmented in the Physical Realm.

I agree - and also want some insight on this. I would add that I think she is whole in the spiritual and physical realms but fractured in the cognitive realm and this feeds into why Pattern's mental abilities seem to be deteriorating.

I think Shallan in WoR is whole, but she hides her "less desirable" traits (ie those schooled out of her by her upbringing) behind a mask of proper behaviour. This is normal human behaviour - we all wear masks. She has just been wearing a mask for so long (as a result of her father and her education) that she has forgotten that she can actually take it off whenever she likes. She is starting to take it off during WoR but goes backwards and fractures her identity as a result of the 4th ideal.

On 13/12/2017 at 10:00 PM, Starla said:

@SLNC I see it the same way you do. She allowed someone else to tell her who she is because she was tired of not knowing. Sometimes it's easier to go along with whatever you're told rather than undergoing to exhausting process of figuring it out for yourself.  At least she had this moment of self-awareness in Kholinar, so maybe she'll get back there at some point in the future.

It's interesting, Jasnah had my favorite quote of the whole series so far in Part 2 of this book, where she said to Dalinar “I don’t need company to be confident." I feel like Shallan is at the opposite place at the end of this book

Indeed. Shallan in some ways has had to grow up long before her time - she was  the main emotional support for her older brothers and thus had an enormous amount of responsibility put on her. She had very little childhood without trouble (from what we've seen) and like many abused children, has a precociousness that is offputting but also somewhat erratic. I can see why being allowed some time to drop the responsibility is appealing. Unfortunately, she's a KR and responsibility is part and parcel of that role.

On 13/12/2017 at 11:51 PM, GoddessIMHO said:

But Hoid also sees the main Shallan as the "real" one not just Adolin. I have no argument that she is really made up of all these traits and certainly isn't integrated at this time but the base is Shallan as Hoid and Adolin see her. The other traits are her also but she is afraid to accept fully. At least she is now steady and working with the 3 together.

My guess; she "combines" herself after "something" that will occur in the next book. She has that Ghostblood task looming as well as any potential battles with fused that may occur.

In other discussions here numerous posts and the text refer to Adolin "snapping" in the murder of Sadeus. That seems a very interesting bow to what has to happen in Scadrial for magic to enter a soul.

I think Hoid is probably the only person who can see trueShallan at this point. His ability to read people is extraordinary. I also think he relates to Shallan in a way we dont really see with other characters. I agree that she seems to accept that she needs all 3 alts to function, but I don't think she realises that she is all 3. Its a step, but there is a long way to go.

I agree that she will reintegrate after some kind of crisis - likely occurring in SA4. I wouldn't be surprised if the "something" occurs towards the end (perhaps assisting with someone else's progression) but that she won't progress to level 5 until book 5. 

I must admit i was also interested in "snapping". Adolin also "surges" when he kills Sadeas and he feels exhausted after encountering Sadeas in the winehouse during the highstorm - all suggestive of surgebinding. That said, we have no indication of him bonding a spren as yet, unless it is Maya. 

On 14/12/2017 at 0:23 AM, Rainier said:

Generally I'm going to assume that Hoid knows what's happening, or at least knows better than any other character we've met.

Yeah I agree - also as the oldest human (ish) person we've encountered he may have experience of similar issues. I would anticipate him helping Shallan with another story that helps her understand her situation when the right moment arises.

On 14/12/2017 at 1:56 AM, Dreamstorm said:

I'm getting a little worried Shallan's reintegration is going to be a little too tied to Kaladin...

I'm not, oddly. The more I think about it, the more I think it will be Kaladin progressing as a result of her. Indeed much of their interaction has actually resulted in him depending on her rather than the other way round (eg, he needed her sword, and her assistance to beat the chasmfiend and survive the highstorm). If anyone impacts Shallan I think it will be Hoid, for reasons stated above. Adolin might be of value, but I hope in a more passive supoorting way if we end up going down that route.

On 14/12/2017 at 1:56 AM, Dreamstorm said:

I think he just means Truespren who can Nahel bond and make a Radiant (this was originally supposed to be a non-spoiler annotation for beginning of WoK.)

That said, Cryptics and Honorspren are opposite on the double eye, and are opposite in many ways, I think on Roshar, a world where symmettry is so important, that this means these types of spren are actually more closely related than they first appear.

23 hours ago, DimChatz said:

Wait a minute... What if it goes the other way around and this is a progression moment for Kaladin. "What should have you done except protecting yourself? Well, that sound like a great idea. I have to start doing that instead of constantly berating myself. Protect my self if I can't poretect others, so that in the future I can keep protecting.Yeah, sound like the reasonable and realistic thing to do". I doubt that it's going to be as easy as that, it's Kaladin we're talking about here

So, I agree that I think Kaladin will probably be guided by Shallan in some respect, but for different rreasons. 1) I don't think this will be his 4th ideal - it is too close to the 3rd (think of Teft's in which he includes himself as the person he most hates) and 2) I think Kaladin needs some leadership ideals. I posted an idea in the 4th WR ideal thread that went along the lines of protecting those who need it, allowing people to act in their own interests, and knowing when the difference between these. Perhaps something about empowering others to act  (which is probably the most important thing a leader can do imo)

14 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I will likely not ever be somewhere that I can ask Brandon a question. If any of you are it seems like asking what state Pattern is in at the end of OB would be useful information. Is being drowsy the sign that he is fading/dying? The WOB that says she is better but still has a way to go doesn't give us a "level of danger" that knowing Pattern's state would.

Yes I very much agree. Isn't there a grandmaster list out there? Can we get this put on it? I have no idea how.

12 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Ok, guys, the summary is more or less done!

10 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I was thinking about shutting it tomorrow, but I guess I can leave it open longer and make more backups in the meantime. Even once I close it, it'll still be open to comments and then I can copy-paste them :)

Woo, can't wait to read it. I reckon you'll have closed it by the time I get to it, but I'll leave comments or something for you.

9 hours ago, Calyx said:

I think realShallan is occasionally present. Think of times where what seems to be personaShallan acts decisively with confidence, or is very scholarly (i.e. at the zoo, or on the shattered plains, both times she kind of leaves Adolin behind). This is realShallan, and Adolin has caught glimpses of her.

I agree that trueShallan is present here but I think she is wearing the mask of personaShallan so Adolin has limited chances to meet the real one. That isn't his fault - she is wearing a face for him deliberately.

Note that she wonders about wearing a face (illusion) for him after their first meeting in WoR and whether she could even keep it up during the marriage - is this foreshadowing (along with Wit's "Almost but not quite bride" comment)? I dont have the book on me right now but she wonders about it after she arrives at Sebariel's war camp iirc.

9 hours ago, mariapapadia said:

Sorry for the offtopic and popping in like this, but is there anyone here good with rhymes? I need some help! Also this is the most active thread, so if I were to have some luck, I hope to find it here 

I'll have a go if you still need someone but I'm not amazing.... PM me if you like.

9 hours ago, MonsterMetroid said:

Yeah I briefly looked over the document but realShallan is pretty confusing and also we dont really know who realShallan is and Brandon I'm quite convinced has done that on purpose to throw us on our heads again in the next book or two.

I agree. We have the traits we would associate with Shallan but not the amounts of each trait that go into completeing her personality. That said, I anticiptae someone more like WoR Shallan (when she is alone and free to think and act as she likes) because otherwise she will lose a lot of the goodwill she got from her arc in WoR and it will be harder to keep her sympathetic if she changes too much.

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12 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

So, I agree that I think Kaladin will probably be guided by Shallan in some respect, but for different rreasons. 1) I don't think this will be his 4th ideal - it is too close to the 3rd (think of Teft's in which he includes himself as the person he most hates) and 2) I think Kaladin needs some leadership ideals. I posted an idea in the 4th WR ideal thread that went along the lines of protecting those who need it, allowing people to act in their own interests, and knowing when the difference between these. Perhaps something about empowering others to act  (which is probably the most important thing a leader can do imo)

Oh, it was mostly a joke on my part:D... I have absolutely no idea what the 4th Ideal might be. I agree that it may be time for some Leadership Ideals, though.

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1 hour ago, DimChatz said:

Oh, it was mostly a joke on my part:D

"Many a true word is spoken in jest"...... ;) 

@Ailvara - wow your notes are great! I added a few comments for your perusal. Only add them if you think it is useful - i wasn't sure how much WoR you wanted to add. I will find quotes if you need them - just let me know.

Edited by PhineasGage
Added thought
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3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I don't think that Veil is more like trueShallan than personaShallan is. Veil is perhaps more like the person trueShallan might have been had she not lived the life she has, but we are a product of our experiences as well as our inbuilt personalities so personaShallan (likely more a product of environment including education) is as "real" as Veil because that is how she has been taught to think and behave. That being said, this means that her personality traits are inherently conflicting with her upbringing and I can see that causing strife.

I think I was misunderstood (yet again!) on what I was trying to say with the excerpt I used with Veil. It seems I do miss a lot of English semantic details and please excuse me for that.

I didn't mean to say that Veil is the true Shallan personality but possibly the one that pre-existed the other ones. The first time that she pushed down a part of herself in order to 'not break but crack', that first part of her is what she later named as Veil. Described in the book as "the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. (...) the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever."

edit: By no means that personality is the full Shallan, because frankly that one would be an undeveloped person, a child, compared to the Shallan of multiple personalities and view points. She definitely needs to re-integrate all her character traits and memories into one, in order to balance out who the real Shallan actually is.

Edited by insert_anagram_here
added clarification
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13 hours ago, Gunzaan said:

I love this board and the varied opinions. I don’t agree with most of them.  This is a glaring example of plain ignorance.

 

”Who is clearly better than both of them”

 

That’s an absolute statement that you can’t quantify.

In "Adolin is better than both of them" I meant in terms of his mental state, though I didn't specify that and my comment is easy to interpret in other ways.

I think all three of them are actually good people, but you are right that this is something that can't be effectively quantified.

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3 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I didn't mean to say that Veil is the true Shallan personality but possibly the one that pre-existed the other ones. The first time that she pushed down a part of herself in order to 'not break but crack', that first part of her is what she later named as Veil. Described in the book as "the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. (...) the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever."

I really like this distinction, and since we absolutely know that Radiant was made in OB, and we know she at least christened Veil in WoR, it makes sense that Veil comes before Radiant. However, if I'm understanding correctly, you're saying that Veil predates what can be called personaShallan (or maskShallan, or wifeShallan, or betrothedShallan, or whatever it is she's showing to Adolin). That would be significant, but I think it's correct considering that this personality was there at least as far back as her mother's death. So Veil is the part of her that's a frenzied child, or a cornered woman. Radiant is the part of her that can stand to hold the sword without breaking, and is also Shallan wishing she was Jasnah. And what's left? Prim, proper Vorin girl ready with a quip.

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31 minutes ago, Calyx said:

In "Adolin is better than both of them" I meant in terms of his mental state, though I didn't specify that and my comment is easy to interpret in other ways

Oh I agree that Adolin is in a better place at the end of OB - though I wonder if he will feel guilt for Sadeas' murder and this might affect him going forward. I wouldn't worry about the rest of the comment you quoted though as it was unneccessarily harsh towards you - your points have been pretty clear thus far and I for one appreciate them :) 

 

3 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I didn't mean to say that Veil is the true Shallan personality but possibly the one that pre-existed the other ones. The first time that she pushed down a part of herself in order to 'not break but crack', that first part of her is what she later named as Veil. Described in the book as "the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. (...) the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever."

Oh I see. I think we perhaps agree then that she is more like the person Shallan would have been without her upbringing, and thus predates the rest (tho she would have still been called "Shallan"? I can certainly get behind that idea. Veil does seem more "passionate" than the personaShallan we see - indeed, personaShallan seems to have lost her passion for scholarship etc that she definitely had in WoR and tWoK. Which I personally find a pity because it is Shallan's fascination with the various aspects of natural history and other bits of scholarship that I probably like the most about her. It is interesting that Veil is likely to have the "will to survive" parts to her - which means that "Veil" is likely to remain dominant - despite personaShallan being the anchored alt at the moment, I think this will be important and possibly problematic later.

 

7 minutes ago, Rainier said:

and is also Shallan wishing she was Jasnah. And what's left? Prim, proper Vorin girl ready with a quip.

Yes, which is probably why those of us worried about the end of OB find it so jarring. It just feels as false as we feel Shallan probably is at this point!

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17 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Oh I see. I think we perhaps agree then that she is more like the person Shallan would have been without her upbringing, and thus predates the rest (tho she would have still been called "Shallan"? I can certainly get behind that idea. Veil does seem more "passionate" than the personaShallan we see - indeed, personaShallan seems to have lost her passion for scholarship etc that she definitely had in WoR and tWoK. Which I personally find a pity because it is Shallan's fascination with the various aspects of natural history and other bits of scholarship that I probably like the most about her. It is interesting that Veil is likely to have the "will to survive" parts to her - which means that "Veil" is likely to remain dominant - despite personaShallan being the anchored alt at the moment, I think this will be important and possibly problematic later.

This lack of scholarship in Oathbringer bothered me quite a bit as well, and is one of the main difficulties I have with the realShallan / personaShallan distinction.

One of the best arguments against Shallan's relationship with Adolin is in love with personaShallan and not realShallan. The crux of this position is that Adolin has never met realShallan, and my disagreement here is why I am unconvinced that Adolin and Shallan's relationship is a negative (and, by extension, she will end up with Kaladin). Though people (@SLNC probably most effectively) have argued plausibly that Adolin has never met realShallan, I believe the passion for scholarship is something that belongs to realShallan. This is something that she displayed throughout Words of Radiance, but is infrequent in Oathbringer. There are times while reading that Shallan displays attributes from more than one of her personalities, and this seems indicative of either realShallan or approaching realShallan.

Adolin clearly interacts with and likes personaShallan and Radiant, and I believe he has seen glimpses of realShallan as well. The only reason he doesn't treat Veil as Shallan is that her appearance changes significantly - but he still clearly likes Veil, just isn't intimate with her.

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13 minutes ago, Calyx said:

I believe the passion for scholarship is something that belongs to realShallan.

I don't think so actually... She starts getting interested in natural history, her calling, by acting on Helaran's advice, when she was just drawing corpses after her mother's death.

Quote

“Draw plants,” Helaran said, “and animals. Safe things, Shallan. Don’t dwell on what happened.” Tears trickled down her cheeks.

That was also where she started to build personaShallan and bury realShallan.

But, to be fair, I believe, that personaShallan is part of realShallan... Veil is just what is closest to what was buried right now. It really is complicated.

EDIT: In hindsight, what Phin said below makes more sense. :D

Edited by SLNC
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1 minute ago, Calyx said:

I believe the passion for scholarship is something that belongs to realShallan. This is something that she displayed throughout Words of Radiance, but is infrequent in Oathbringer. There are times while reading that Shallan displays attributes from more than one of her personalities, and this seems indicative of either realShallan or approaching realShallan.

Adolin clearly interacts with and likes personaShallan and Radiant, and I believe he has seen glimpses of realShallan as well. The only reason he doesn't treat Veil as Shallan is that her appearance changes significantly - but he still clearly likes Veil, just isn't intimate with her.

My position is that Adolin doesn't see much of realShallan because she wears a mask for him. She isn't an alt in WoR but she doesn't share her scholarship ith Adolin much at all and I wonder how much he knows about her genuine passion for it. Remember that most of her true scholarship happens when she is alone because it is related to the Radiants, Urithiru and the parshmen/voidbringer conundrum. She shares a bit then withdraws her position a bit (highstorm date) because he is viscerally opposed to her point and doesn't ask about evidence etc the way she asked Jasnah etc.

He also doesn't share her love of learning - we see him actively walk away from her when she engages in her own scholarly pursuits for example. I don't think he dislikes her intelligence and curiosity, but he doesn't actually value it particularly - indeed he is pleased that she just doesn't make him feel stupid, despite her being cleverer than him.

We don't need to share a partner's interests all the time, imo, but Shallan's intelligence is a primary part of who she is, so him not valuing it feels.... wrong to me. But I admit I might be projecting a bit. I personally value intelligence very highly.

2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I don't think so actually... She starts getting interested in natural history, her calling, by acting on Helaran's advice, when she was just drawing corpses after her mother's death.

That was also where she started to build personaShallan and bury realShallan.

I actually disagree a bit here I'm afraid.

Helaran tells her to draw safe things, but not to take an interest in them. He essentially encourages her art, the questions come directly and only from Shallan. Her intelligence is not a cover, it is inherent to who she is. The art is also her, but it is the combination of her curiosity and her artistic nature that results in natural history becoming her calling.

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2 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I actually disagree a bit here I'm afraid.

Helaran tells her to draw safe things, but not to take an interest in them. He essentially encourages her art, the questions come directly and only from Shallan. Her intelligence is not a cover, it is inherent to who she is. The art is also her, but it is the combination of her curiosity and her artistic nature that results in natural history becoming her calling.

Right. That makes actually more sense.

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9 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Amazing! @Ailvara I'll be adding my comments in there if that's okay. I'll try to cite as much as I can.

Absolutely, go for it!

7 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

@Ailvara - wow your notes are great! I added a few comments for your perusal. Only add them if you think it is useful - i wasn't sure how much WoR you wanted to add. I will find quotes if you need them - just let me know.

I think anything that is relevant to the discussion, and we have discussed WoR as well :)

1 hour ago, Calyx said:

Adolin clearly interacts with and likes personaShallan and Radiant, and I believe he has seen glimpses of realShallan as well. The only reason he doesn't treat Veil as Shallan is that her appearance changes significantly - but he still clearly likes Veil, just isn't intimate with her.

 

I actually wouldn't go so far as to say that Adolin wouldn't like realShallan. The bigger problem is, that she doesn't believe he would and so she hides her. That might change, but the longer she lies, the more difficult it's going to be to untangle it and after a year of marriage... I don't know. To me personally, to admit after such time that I have been lying to my SO all along, it would be much, much more difficult and stressful than telling it at the stage of relationship Shallan and Adolin are in OB.

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

He also doesn't share her love of learning - we see him actively walk away from her when she engages in her own scholarly pursuits for example. I don't think he dislikes her intelligence and curiosity, but he doesn't actually value it particularly - indeed he is pleased that she just doesn't make him feel stupid, despite her being cleverer than him.

 

That's actually the part of how she crafted a perfect bride for him, isn't it? Not just losing her passion because of general diminishing herself, but possibly subconsciously specifically ripping out a part of her that doesn't go so well with Adolin. Again, he could accept it, but she doesn't give him this chance and when the whole lie falls apart at some point it just can be too much and too late.

I'll be closing the document soon, PM me with your emails if you want to continue editing, comments will be open to everyone.

I have just one suggestion, that we should use the comments as "to add" notes. One or two comments to clarify that not everybody agrees is perfectly fine, but let's not move the discussion out from this topic to the document, because 1) it'll simply take too much space 2) not everyone may see it and get involved in time. If you see, that some point is controversial, let's discuss it here and then post its summary as a correction.

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27 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I actually wouldn't go so far as to say that Adolin wouldn't like realShallan. The bigger problem is, that she doesn't believe he would and so she hides her. That might change, but the longer she lies, the more difficult it's going to be to untangle it and after a year of marriage... I don't know. To me personally, to admit after such time that I have been lying to my SO all along, it would be much, much more difficult and stressful than telling it at the stage of relationship Shallan and Adolin are in OB.

Absolutely, I agree! I think Adolin really would like realShallan, and does - he just doesn't realize that some parts of her he has seen belong to realShallan, because she hasn't even told him realShallan exists. I think Adolin would like realShallan, even more than he likes whatever combination of personaShallan / Radiant / realShallan that he currently defines as 'Shallan' - and that is the only way their relationship is going to be healthy or even survive.

Shallan has a lot of truth to share in the next book, hopefully with Pattern, Jasnah, Adolin, and - especially - herself. One thing I admire about Adolin's role in their relationship is that he doesn't go in and try to fix things. Shallan needs to fix herself.

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This is how I interpret the ShallanShattering:

Once upon a time she was a normal girl with many and complex personality traits like everyone else.

Until she killed her mother and had to bury the memory and let her father take the blame, and see how he suffered and became more and more angry because of this. The repercussions of Brightlady Davar´s dead were huge, and all the family and household suffered from it. So Shallan obviusly felt guilty.

That´s when she starts pretanding to be the perfect daughter, and developed personaShallan by burying other traits, that will eventually evolve into Veil and Radiant.

PersonaShallan is  "funny, eager, shy, vorin, artist"  (note: this is also the Shallan that was expecting to marry whoever her father chose, and was ecstatic at the idea of an arranged marriage with a prince).  The perfect girl for surviving her complicated home life.

I think she buried, back then, some characteristics like her courage, self confidence, interest for the parshmen and the darkeyed household (she knew her father killed many of them, but didn´t do anything, she used to draw parshman but she was forbidden to do it because it was unseemly), radiantness (comlpetely forgot about all this), her ambition, among others.

When she left her home, and specially after the shipwreck, her personaShallan wasn´t equipped to deal with the new challenges, so she starts recovering some of her other traits, but then pushes them into the other personas.

The personaShallan for house Davar is the most similar to the personaShallan who tries to win over Adolin, she really doesn´t change that much. As she has to pretend to be the perfect fiance, gain the Kholins´ trust  and infiltrate the ghostblood, she picks some of her buried treats and baptizes this persona as Veil, then gives her a backstory. Eventually she will do a similar thing with Radiant.

Doing this allows her to go on doing what she needs to do without freezing or confronting her truths. 

So in a way, Veil did live all the events that traumatized Shallan,  because she was a bunch of characteristics that were buried afterwards because they dind´t go with the persona Shallan needed to be in order to avoid problems with her father.

(I think Shallan could even convince herself that her mother´s death was Veil or Radiant´s fault if she tried, as that surviving instinct is not exactly personaShallan, but more like the other personas)

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17 hours ago, Calyx said:

I think Adolin really would like realShallan, and does - he just doesn't realize that some parts of her he has seen belong to realShallan, because she hasn't even told him realShallan exists. I think Adolin would like realShallan, even more than he likes whatever combination of personaShallan / Radiant / realShallan that he currently defines as 'Shallan'

Not wanting to discount your opinion on that, but may I ask: On what grounds do you think that? The fact, that Adolin already is just accepting everything? (no snark intended)

Veil is extremely different from personaShallan. Almost the polar opposite. Especially regarding flaring passion and vivaciousness.

We have a WoK annotation, that Sanderson think this is far more "herself."

Quote
Shallan berates the book merchant

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin.

https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-way-of-kings-chapter-8

From this I can only assume(!), that should reintegration occur, that Veil will be a much, much more character-defining part of realShallan. personaShallan won't be gone, but just not as character-defining as she is now.

There is a reason many relationships don't end well, when one partner changes so much, that the love just fizzles out. I'm not saying, that it is impossible, but even if Adolin still loves realShallan... How does realShallan think about it? Veil doesn't like Adolin as a romantic partner. There are always two sides to it.

17 hours ago, Calyx said:

One thing I admire about Adolin's role in their relationship is that he doesn't go in and try to fix things. Shallan needs to fix herself.

I think, that a romantic relationship (with either Adolin or Kaladin, doesn't matter) atm, will make matters harder for her. Especially for the fact, that Veil doesn't accept Adolin as romantic partner. personaShallan likes to play things safe and... well the status quo is pretty safe. No, if something will prompt her to maybe do something against it, it will be a frayed bond with Pattern (of which we've already seen signs). That is what I think about it.

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In all the discussion of Adolin and Veil you can't forget that he loves her fashion sense when he sees Shallan wearing Veil's clothes.  Just saying. ..

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Yeah. Based on every single interaction where Adolin learns something new about Shallan - no matter what part of Shallan it comes from - he's always liked it, and seems to find every bit of her amazing. So yeah. I take it as an indication they have the right foundation going forward even though they have struggles coming up ahead, rather than proof they're destined to fail. Same text, different reading.

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3 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

In all the discussion of Adolin and Veil you can't forget that he loves her fashion sense when he sees Shallan wearing Veil's clothes.  Just saying. ..

IIRC Shallan chose the look of Veil, not Veil herself. Back then she was just a disguise and not a fractured part of her personality. So the look actually comes from Shallan. But there might have been some Veil influence in Shallan's choice, I'll admit, we just don't know it.

Regarding Adolin finding everything about Shallan great: First of all, we don't know what he was thinking in the scene with Veil's clothes. Secondly, what else would he have said after searching for her and being worried? That her outfit sucks and that he'd rather have her don a havah again? He's just as insecure about messing this up, so he plays it safe. He might have thought something different.

And these are all actually pretty harmless revelations, I don't know if he is going to very much like the fact, that Shallan is a thief and the murderer of both her parents. He might not care about it  or he might. I wouldn't dare to make a prediction yet and I don't see the clothes thing as an indicator for anything to be honest.

Edited by SLNC
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I've just found another quote that I don't think we've had here:

Quote

“The evil force that rules the palace did not think highly of someone coming with a letter from the king.” She smiled at him. “You could say, um, it made that point quite clear.”

Smile. I need you to smile. I need what happened to be all right. Something that can simply roll off me. Please.

“Well…” Kaladin said. “I’m glad we … took a stab at this anyway.

 
 

(Storms I'm never going to get over it if these things continue to pop up.) I like how it shows Kaladin is not the only one that gets the cheer-up boost.

Edited by Ailvara
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1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

I've just found another quote that I don't think we've had here:

(Storms I'm never going to get over it if these things continue to pop up.) I like how it shows Kaladin is not the only one that gets the cheer-up boost.

hahahahah There is no getting over this... I love this guy.

He is really empathic and knows how to help people when they need it. 

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9 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I like how it shows Kaladin is not the only one that gets the cheer-up boost.

 

7 hours ago, Awesomness said:

He is really empathic and knows how to help people when they need it. 

Yes, that is exactly the chemistry I'm always talking about. Its funny really how Kaladin, a character, that is always, on the surface, depicted as brooding and reserved, can radiate this much hope and understanding and have this effect on Shallan. And, once again, she is one of the few people, who he actually smiles at.

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I was incredibly disappointed with the way things ended with this. Shallan and Adolin always felt so very boring and shallow to me. The whole "Adolin gets me" thing is outright baffling. He has only every seen one side of her for the longest time and that side was always a mask to begin with. He sees Veil and Radiant in Oathbringer, but he never really sees Shallan imho. It feels so forced. If Sanderson had developed things in a more meaningful manner between the two maybe I could buy it, but I just don't. 

Now does that mean Kaladin and Shallan would work? Not necessarily. They both have a lot of growing to do I think before they could ever enter a truly healthy relationship with each other. But the thing is, it could have happened. It could have become something special. Instead their relationship is just brushed aside in a very unsatisfactory manner. Outside of one scene, there were no really good discussions/interactions between the two characters. And once that scene on the ship in Shadesmar happened I knew where the author was heading. It was very clear that he would push Shallan and Adolin. Kaladin and Shallan just had the potential to be more interesting to me. Maybe Sanderson was afraid they were too predictable a couple, but if he was going to go the Shallan and Adolin route he really needed to sell it and he just didn't. 

Edited by Xarallei
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14 hours ago, Xarallei said:

I was incredibly disappointed with the way things ended with this. Shallan and Adolin always felt so very boring and shallow to me. The whole "Adolin gets me" thing is outright baffling. He has only every seen one side of her for the longest time and that side was always a mask to begin with. He sees Veil and Radiant in Oathbringer, but he never really sees Shallan imho. It feels so forced. If Sanderson had developed things in a more meaningful manner between the two maybe I could buy it, but I just don't. 

Now does that mean Kaladin and Shallan would work? Not necessarily. They both have a lot of growing to do I think before they could ever enter a truly healthy relationship with each other. But the thing is, it could have happened. It could have become something special. Instead their relationship is just brushed aside in a very unsatisfactory manner. Outside of one scene, there were no really good discussions/interactions between the two characters. And once that scene on the ship in Shadesmar happened I knew where the author was heading. It was very clear that he would push Shallan and Adolin. Kaladin and Shallan just had the potential to be more interesting to me. Maybe Sanderson was afraid they were too predictable a couple, but if he was going to go the Shallan and Adolin route he really needed to sell it and he just didn't. 

Hello @Xarallei and welcome! Thanks for joinning us and contributing in this discussion. If you're just joinning I'd like to point you to two summeries to get you caught up and perhaps adress some of your doubts and concerns, as has been done for all of us.

A quick summery made by me 

A more thorough made by @Ailvara

 

I, sincerely, hope that these help!:)

Edited by DimChatz
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