[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[PlanetReelo]

1 hour ago, DimChatz said:

So here we’re a month later and were to we stand? Well, I thought that I should try to make a summery, in order to assist people that are just now joining us. Some of the stuff mentioned below are re-purposed from the feedback email I send BS though his website, because I think it encapsulates our thoughts and criticisms well enough. The text in it was checked by @PhineasGage so part of the credit goes to them as well, they did an amazing job in helping me get my point across.

The main concerns regard the portrayal of dealing with mental issues, the developments as a character of the female protagonist, and the (1) apparent lack of fulfillment of promises made through this book and parts of the previous one. Many of us feel that the resolution of the protagonist's (2) mental issues were not solved in a medically realistic manner and were only used to advance the plot line.

Another point of consternation is the apparent need for the female protagonist (Shallan) to be rescued from her struggles by a traditional male archetype (Adolin). (3) This results in him “enabling” her, so to speak, This would be bad enough from a feminist perspective, but the idea of him seeing the “real” Shallan (3) is also incorrect when the kind of discussing dissociative states she has, and that matter is ignored so that another arranged marriage could be brought to conclusion. It is felt this has perhaps been overdone.

Lastly, it is felt by many readers that (1) false promises were made through the text regarding the progression of two characters (Kaladin and Shallan) and their relationship, but were not addressed in a satisfying manner no matter where they might have led. As result readers who got invested in said characters are feeling upset, deceived, toyed with and, personally, that their favorite character was mishandled in order to be needlessly used as a plot device. We feel that this diminishes Kaladin’s value in the storyline simply to progress a romantic story line that is written in a very archetypal fashion.

Let me know if I missed anything. Moving on, I'll try to list what has been further discussed in this thread.

It is felt that motherhood for Shallan, at this point, of her life would not be an advisable course, not only for the child but her as well.

(4) Adolin should be further developed as character and face the consequences of his actions, no matter if they were moral or immoral, because Sadeas murder was presented as something that would have ramifications. This wasn't shown in text, but instead it was glossed over. Possibilities for the further development of him included a darker future for them, as it's quite impossible for him to get more perfect than he already is, not to mention that it would be dull.

The marriage of those two characters feels quite rushed with a large number of issues that need to be addressed for it to be successful. (4) This matters should be addressed in a believable manner and with an open mind, which means that if they cannot be believably resolved then the marriage should be terminated, as to preserve the interest in the development of both characters.

Another interesting plot plot-point that has been brought up is the possible fraying of the bond between Shallan and Pattern due to her self-deception and lack of self awareness. This is support by instances in text where Pattern displays odd behavior that could suggest that his mental capacity in diminishing

Giving feedback on all of the points of dissatisfaction is a great idea! However, I have to comment on your wording for some of the points. We have to remember that BS is the author and we can't purport to know more than him. This is absolutely not criticism of your content (I agree with all of it), it's just that the feedback is more likely to be well received if it's relatively neutral and reads less like a critique of his writing, and more like a consensus for the way the fanbase feels. 

(1) 'Lack of promise fulfillment' might sound a bit accusatory and read to him as a sense of entitlement, as he explicitly made no promises, and may argue that we were simply reading too deeply in to his text. I understand why you would write this though, because it perfectly encompasses the way we all feel. Perhaps something along the lines of 'absence of follow-through on heavily foreshadowed events highly anticipated by a large proportion of the fandom' or something like that.

(2) There's nothing really wrong with this one, just that he may outright dismiss it. As a fantasy writer,  he doesn't have to stick with real life depictions of illnesses. This was difficult to get my head around too, as I'm a doctor working in Emergency Medicine so my immediate and natural thought process is always to seek out diagnoses.

(3) For these points, it may be better to make it sound less as though we are explaining BS's own text to him. I just thought it may be better to say 'this made it appear that he is enabling her' and '...idea of him seeing the “real” Shallan did not feel realistic in light of the paralells to dissociative disorders. Her arranged marriage to Adolin without true resolution of her mental health issues can be read as erroneous in this context'.

(4) If you include these points in your feedback, just ensure that they sound less instructive and more like suggestions.

You absolutely don't have to take on board any of the above, just thought I'd put in my two pennies worth!

[Info_Drone-0451]

20 minutes ago, PlanetReelo said:

Giving feedback on all of the points of dissatisfaction is a great idea! However, I have to comment on your wording for some of the points. We have to remember that BS is the author and we can't purport to know more than him. This is absolutely not criticism of your content (I agree with all of it), it's just that the feedback is more likely to be well received if it's relatively neutral and reads less like a critique of his writing, and more like a consensus for the way the fanbase feels. 

(1) 'Lack of promise fulfillment' might sound a bit accusatory and read to him as a sense of entitlement, as he explicitly made no promises, and may argue that we were simply reading too deeply in to his text. I understand why you would write this though, because it perfectly encompasses the way we all feel. Perhaps something along the lines of 'absence of follow-through on heavily foreshadowed events highly anticipated by a large proportion of the fandom' or something like that.

(2) There's nothing really wrong with this one, just that he may outright dismiss it. As a fantasy writer,  he doesn't have to stick with real life depictions of illnesses. This was difficult to get my head around too, as I'm a doctor working in Emergency Medicine so my immediate and natural thought process is always to seek out diagnoses.

(3) For these points, it may be better to make it sound less as though we are explaining BS's own text to him. I just thought it may be better to say 'this made it appear that he is enabling her' and '...idea of him seeing the “real” Shallan did not feel realistic in light of the paralells to dissociative disorders. Her arranged marriage to Adolin without true resolution of her mental health issues can be read as erroneous in this context'.

(4) If you include these points in your feedback, just ensure that they sound less instructive and more like suggestions.

You absolutely don't have to take on board any of the above, just thought I'd put in my two pennies worth!

Many of the things that I wrote above were not in the feedback I submitted (everything below "Let me know if I missed anything." wasn't in the original and the tone of the original text was different as the paragraphs that are missing here make it much less critical in my opinion), which was done weeks ago and not with the express purpose of capturing the feelings of the community, but mostly my own which happened to match many of that were included here, and which I tried to include as well. Anyway, thanks for the feedback

 

Edited December 14, 2017 by DimChatz

[PlanetReelo]

11 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

Many of the things that I wrote above were not in the feedback I submitted (everything below "Let me know if I missed anything." wasn't in the original and the tone of the original text was different as the paragraphs that are missing here make it much less critical in my opinion), which was done weeks ago and not with the express purpose of capturing the feelings of the community, but mostly my own which happened to match many of that were included here, and which I tried to include as well. Anyway, thanks for the feedback

 

Having read the final draft, I see what you mean about the missing paragraphs! It's a great piece of feedback.

[DeployParachute]

@DimChatz

Don't think you posted the right links in your summary regarding your popular theory. Or at least when I clicked then they didn't take me to them.

Anyway, great job on the summary. Any chance I could get a copy of the feedback that was sent?

Edited December 14, 2017 by DeployParachute

[GoddessIMHO]

I will likely not ever be somewhere that I can ask Brandon a question. If any of you are it seems like asking what state Pattern is in at the end of OB would be useful information. Is being drowsy the sign that he is fading/dying? The WOB that says she is better but still has a way to go doesn't give us a "level of danger" that knowing Pattern's state would.

[Guest]

Yeah, that would be a great question, but I'd guess, that it would be RAFO'd.

[Ailvara]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Yeah, that would be a great question, but I'd guess, that it would be RAFO'd.

If it's RAFO'd that's the answer  

@DimChatz I've been thinking on making a summary for a while, but for some reason, I didn't feel like diving again into all our issues and feelings regarding this particular resolution... Now that's done you inspired me to make a summary of our theories, observations regarding foreshadowings etc  I'm not much an essay person, it'll be in the form of notes. It's already 9 pages, I aimed for much shorter, but with the quotes... I'll post it in a few hours I think.

[Info_Drone-0451]

1 hour ago, DeployParachute said:

Don't think you posted the right links in your summary regarding your popular theory. Or at least when I clicked then they didn't take me to them.

That's strange... It takes me right to it. November 22 page 18, Theory regarding  who is who in the triangle posted by me...

50 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

@DimChatz I've been thinking on making a summary for a while, but for some reason, I didn't feel like diving again into all our issues and feelings regarding this particular resolution... Now that's done you inspired me to make a summary of our theories, observations regarding foreshadowings etc  I'm not much an essay person, it'll be in the form of notes. It's already 9 pages, I aimed for much shorter, but with the quotes... I'll post it in a few hours I think.

Yay! I inspired someone! Do it! Mine is more like a quick Previously on... so, yes, having something longer and more comprehensive will also be good.

Edited December 14, 2017 by DimChatz

[Ailvara]

Ok, guys, the summary is more or less done!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit?usp=sharing 

I'll leave it in "everybody can edit" mode for now in case I overlooked something important or you have a quote to add! I'll probably later change it to "anybody can comment" so that we don't get attacked by any trolls.

It needs some polishing, but like I said, it's not an essay, but a note. Also, I kind of concentrated on the topics that I felt were more in line with the main topic, overlooking mostly the discussion f.ex. on Shallan becoming a mother or deep analysis of Adolin's character. If you disagree with this approach, please feel free to add or rephrase anything.

I think that @DimChatz summary would work well as the introduction, for example, but I won't go as far with copying other people's posts, unless you want to include it  Anyway, this is wholly a group work, I only summarize because I'm a notes freak.

[Info_Drone-0451]

@Ailvara Amazing work! I've just begun it and I'm already atounded by the effort you have put. So many information and annotations... Love it!

[Guest]

@Ailvara Great, great work! This will be a useful reference.

@Harbour Maybe put the link in the OP?

[Dreamstorm]

2 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Ok, guys, the summary is more or less done!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit?usp=sharing 

I'll leave it in "everybody can edit" mode for now in case I overlooked something important or you have a quote to add! I'll probably later change it to "anybody can comment" so that we don't get attacked by any trolls.

It needs some polishing, but like I said, it's not an essay, but a note. Also, I kind of concentrated on the topics that I felt were more in line with the main topic, overlooking mostly the discussion f.ex. on Shallan becoming a mother or deep analysis of Adolin's character. If you disagree with this approach, please feel free to add or rephrase anything.

I think that @DimChatz summary would work well as the introduction, for example, but I won't go as far with copying other people's posts, unless you want to include it  Anyway, this is wholly a group work, I only summarize because I'm a notes freak.

This is AMAZING.  I love, love, love all of the footnotes with actual quotes from the book.  Btw, I think it's actually stronger as a note with the source quotes because that makes it less about your (or any of our) opinions, and more about what is actually in the text.  Hopefully you can leave it open for a couple days so we can see what other quotes can be added?  (I personally won't be able to really dig into it until tomorrow and I really want to!)

Also, is this something we (you? - I'd be fine doing just you since you did the work or a collective group, whichever you prefer) should send to Brandon?

ETA:  I lied and already made a couple edits and added some quotes but want to add more.  There are so many quotes in support it's amazing!!

Edited December 14, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Ailvara]

Thank you for all feedback, it makes me feel so much better about being way too invested in the life of fictional characters  

2 hours ago, SLNC said:

@Ailvara Great, great work! This will be a useful reference.

@Harbour Maybe put the link in the OP?

I guess that would be great, or in a few pages, newcomers will be as confused as ever.

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

This is AMAZING.  I love, love, love all of the footnotes with actual quotes from the book.  Btw, I think it's actually stronger as a note with the source quotes because that makes it less about your (or any of our) opinions, and more about what is actually in the text.  Hopefully you can leave it open for a couple days so we can see what other quotes can be added?  (I personally won't be able to really dig into it until tomorrow and I really want to!)

Also, is this something we (you? - I'd be fine doing just you since you did the work or a collective group, whichever you prefer) should send to Brandon?

1

I was thinking about shutting it tomorrow, but I guess I can leave it open longer and make more backups in the meantime. Even once I close it, it'll still be open to comments and then I can copy-paste them

I never really considered writing to Brandon, because before joining the forums I didn't even know it was possible! So I don't know exactly is this is the sort of stuff people send him, but if he would like to read it, wow, it'd be awesome.

Edited December 14, 2017 by Ailvara

[Guest]

Just now, Ailvara said:

I was thinking about shutting it tomorrow, but I guess I can leave it open longer and make more backups in the meantime. Even once I close it, it'll still be open to comments and then I can copy-paste them

I think, that would be for the best. Let others add comments and then add them to the document. Or give certain persons rights to edit.

[Dreamstorm]

22 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I was thinking about shutting it tomorrow, but I guess I can leave it open longer and make more backups in the meantime. Even once I close it, it'll still be open to comments and then I can copy-paste them

Whatever works best for you!  The one substantive thing I thought about changing I added a note for, besides that it was just adding additional quotes in support or slightly elaborating on some things, but you wouldn't want people coming in and deleting!

22 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I never really considered writing to Brandon, because before joining the forums I didn't even know it was possible! So I don't know exactly is this is the sort of stuff people send him, but if he would like to read it, wow, it'd be awesome.

I have no clue because I'm new to this to, but I guess if I was an author and someone clearly spent so much time analyzing the text of my writing and crafting an argument around it?  I'd think that was amazing.  I know he gets "opinion" pieces on how people feel about what happened or what they want to happen, but I would find something which required so much effort to find textual support versus just giving an opinion to be awesome.  But then again, that's also just my opinion   (I also remain in awe of this compilation.  Like this can be converted to a legal brief for the argument with minimal effort.  Ok, crazy idea, but once it's done, I could even put it into an amicus brief format (example here: https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/publishing/preview/publiced_preview_briefs_pdfs_07_08_07_588_PetitionerAmCupacificlegal.authcheckdam.pdf) and add citations (I have all three hardcovers for cites) and everything.  Ok, this is the nerdiest idea ever so feel free to shut it down )

Edited December 14, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Calyx]

I think the "Shalladin Manifesto" title fits this very well, and I admire the work put into it (seriously, it looks like a lot of work - great job!)

But as a person who cares about Shallan quite a bit more than I do Kaladin - and favors her relationship with Adolin, who is clearly better than both of them - I don't find it convincing. When I read many of the quotes, I arrive at the opposite interpretation. One specific objection I have is to the argument that neither we nor Adolin has seen realShallan - I think realShallan is occasionally present. Think of times where what seems to be personaShallan acts decisively with confidence, or is very scholarly (i.e. at the zoo, or on the shattered plains, both times she kind of leaves Adolin behind). This is realShallan, and Adolin has caught glimpses of her.

Some constructive criticism - I think you should have a brief key at the beginning defining terms, i.e. personaShallan and realShallan.

[DeployParachute]

3 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Ok, guys, the summary is more or less done!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VqLjiUojkPqIfLJLyu7OnykTP3i-LG0f5f1KjRSJE6A/edit?usp=sharing 

This is unbelievably awesome. Thank you so much for putting this together.

[Ailvara]

6 minutes ago, Calyx said:

I think the "Shalladin Manifesto" title fits this very well, and I admire the work put into it (seriously, it looks like a lot of work - great job!)

But as a person who cares about Shallan quite a bit more than I do Kaladin - and favors her relationship with Adolin, who is clearly better than both of them - I don't find it convincing. When I read many of the quotes, I arrive at the opposite interpretation. One specific objection I have is to the argument that neither we nor Adolin has seen realShallan - I think realShallan is occasionally present. Think of times where what seems to be personaShallan acts decisively with confidence, or is very scholarly (i.e. at the zoo, or on the shattered plains, both times she kind of leaves Adolin behind). This is realShallan, and Adolin has caught glimpses of her.

Some constructive criticism - I think you should have a brief key at the beginning defining terms, i.e. personaShallan and realShallan.

Constructive criticism is always good! I wouldn't be able to convincingly make a case for Shadolin myself, but if you feel this point of view should be represented, feel free to add a section. Out of curiosity, which quotes did you interpret in the opposite way?

Actually, I get it how realShallan can be confusing. It could reference Shallan as she is before fracturing, ie WoK and WoR. But I guess I went more with the person buried inside of her due to her mental wounds, as it is likely the endgame for her, especially after we recently discussed this:

Quote

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.” Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her.

 

So I'm not sure yet whether to just clarify that or introduce a third Shallan into the mix (one that is whole but still has stuff buried deep inside her). So yes, we do see glimpses of this whomSheCouldBeAndPossiblyWillBeShallan (damnation, somebody better come up with a better name), but she never emerges for long enough and I don't think Adolin notices, though that is debatable. I mean, everybody acts OOC sometimes, but without knowing her history it'd be impossible to realize, that these glimpses are actually realShallan and not just random... moods.

[mariapapadia]

Sorry for the offtopic and popping in like this, but is there anyone here good with rhymes? I need some help! Also this is the most active thread, so if I were to have some luck, I hope to find it here  

Ok! Thank you ! Carry on !

[MonsterMetroid]

1 minute ago, Ailvara said:

Actually, I get it how realShallan can be confusing. It could reference Shallan as she is before fracturing, ie WoK and WoR.

Yeah I briefly looked over the document but realShallan is pretty confusing and also we dont really know who realShallan is and Brandon I'm quite convinced has done that on purpose to throw us on our heads again in the next book or two.

[Guest]

44 minutes ago, Calyx said:

This is realShallan, and Adolin has caught glimpses of her.

I disagree. I think, this is the best description of realShallan, we've got so far.

Quote

Shallan looked into the depths of the swirling void, the dark spinning soul of Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother. Then, growling, Shallan struck. She didn’t attack like the prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society. She attacked like the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. She drew upon the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever.

This isn't personaShallan. personaShallan is the "prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society." And personaShallan is what Adolin has been seeing primarily. And what he fell in love with.

If this is realShallan, then I would place her closer to Veil... And we both know who Veil prefers.

Edited December 14, 2017 by SLNC

[MonsterMetroid]

 

25 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Quote

Shallan looked into the depths of the swirling void, the dark spinning soul of Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother. Then, growling, Shallan struck. She didn’t attack like the prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society. She attacked like the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. She drew upon the part of her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever.

This isn't personaShallan. personaShallan is the "prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society." And personaShallan is what Adolin has been seeing primarily. And what he fell in love with.

If this is realShallan, then I would place her closer to Veil... And we both know who Veil prefers.

I love this and I have been thinking along the same lines as this. Enough so that I have been working on a whole post about it, but Shallan feels kind of over talked right now. But realShallan seems pretty deeply buried and dark and I'm sure there are more surprises about her background for us to read about still.

Edited December 14, 2017 by MonsterMetroid
removed typo

[Rainier]

46 minutes ago, mariapapadia said:

Sorry for the offtopic and popping in like this, but is there anyone here good with rhymes?

Strange request, but I'll bite. Lord knows I've spent enough time setting musical songs to Stormlight settings, of which I'm inordinately proud. Feel free to either PM or @ me and I'll lend a hand.

Also, here's to @Ailvara, which I've totally been reading as Alivara right up until I had to spell it. You've put together a great resource, and it looks great.

 

[Awesomness]

I don´t feel like thinking right now, but I just wanted to say (again) this thread is Amazing!

@Ailvara What a great idea! Im going to read the essay tonight 

@Calyx Please tell us how you interpret the same phrases! I find it fascinating how different people interprets completely opposite things from the same lines

EDIT: I don´t know who opened this thread or if they are still around, but it may be a good idea to post a summary on the OP to avoid misunderstandings from people who reads the last 2 pages and think we are desperate shippers (hehe) or Adolin-haters.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Awesomness
added an idea

[Gunzaan]

3 hours ago, Calyx said:

But as a person who cares about Shallan quite a bit more than I do Kaladin - and favors her relationship with Adolin, who is clearly better than both of them - I don't find it convincing.

I love this board and the varied opinions. I don’t agree with most of them.  This is a glaring example of plain ignorance.

 

”Who is clearly better than both of them”

 

That’s an absolute statement that you can’t quantify.

 

 

 

And honestly, I appreciate that statement, even though I don’t agree.  Atleast he/she has a strong opinion.  I’ve seen a few instances in this thread where someone calls someone out for saying a similar statement.  Grow a thicker skin and live in the real world. People have completely different opinions and perspectives and they are allowed to express them.  If you can’t deal with it, that’s on you, not their individual perspective/opinion.