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[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion


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I think the main problem here is that while Shallan spent a lot of time with both Kaladin and especially Adolin, most of their actual interactions were either off screen or glossed over. She has been going on dates with Adolin, and Radiant has been regularly training with her shardblade / flirting with him. Meanwhile, she has definitely spent time with Kaladin, as in their flight to Theylen City or when he flies her to the mountains near Urithiru to draw. Plus all of the time the three of them spent in Kholinar / shadesmar together.

The problem is, we don't actually see these interactions that must have taken place. We get some of their internal thoughts - well some of Kaladin's, anyway. Not much of Adolin, and Shallan's internal thoughts are totally messed up until (debatably) the very end. I think there was just too much stuff happening for these relationship building moments to be really explored, which is a shame - it makes the decision at the end seem to under-deliver on a lot of the initial build up.

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20 hours ago, aemetha said:

Whoever said that? I certainly didn't, and I haven't seen anyone else argue this at any point. Honestly, this is a really hyperbolic statement, which is really a bit of a theme in some of these posts. I made one statement that was misunderstood, which I've clarified three times now, and somehow it just continues to be inflated into something much larger than it is. Good people do bad things sometimes. That's the essence of what anyone said about it on my side of the argument.

His act was sociopathic has in your commentary become he's a sociopath has become he's a vile human being.

You see what's going on there? I feel at this point most of us are arguing something that was said, and you are arguing something that you've inferred. I don't expect you to agree with me, I do expect you to at least accept my explanation of what I think rather than insinuating that you know my mind better than I do.

I responded to a great many posts painting Adolin into a very negative light, some of these posts even stated how he would become another Blackthorn if he weren't restraining himself. Also, there was a strong insistence he is an immoral individual, many posts even claiming each and every one of this actions were done for selfish reasons, using his lack of viewpoints to justify giving him very negative intentions when it is my perspective everything in the textual highlights the opposite. 

Maybe some of those posts were your own, maybe they weren't. When a thread is as active as this one, it is virtually impossible, for myself, to go back and quote each and every single posts which I want to answer.  As such, I will generally take a big one and refer to it. None of it is meant to be personal nor targeted towards anyone, I tend to respond at large. I quoted your post because you have been one of those arguing in favor of Adolin having sociopathic behavior: I did not mean to infer you personally said he was a sociopath, but I felt some posts were arguing for it.

Some of the posts I have read go far beyond "the good people do bad things", it went as far as to claim Adolin is repressing his vile evil side which is just waiting to shine, so apologies if I tend to respond to those posts to the best of my ability. They may not have been yours, so if you feel targeted in a personal manner, then apologies again, none of it was meant towards you specifically, as a person, but towards a great many people more or less inferring the same things. I also consider the difference in between a sociopath and a vile human being to be negligible: a sociopath is, by definition, a vile human being or at least it is to me. The term itself itself is highly negative and when used, then backlash is to be expected. 

I can agree to disagree with you, but I cannot agree the words "Adolin" and "sociopath" or "sociopathic behavior" belong within the same sentence. I have made my stance very clear, apologies for it being so badly received.

13 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I don't have much time today - nor indeed the inclination to get into things deeply here. This is mainly because I am fed up of having to explain multiple times now that I have never said that Adolin is a "bad guy" but that his murder was a "bad thing". And yes, this is aimed mostly at you @maxal I am giving up on trying to explain myself to you because you are either deliberately misunderstanding my position or I am unable to explain myself sufficiently well to make you understand it. I have tried, and failed, so rather than devote yet more time to a debate that can't go anywhere I am moving on.

If you feel someone is misunderstand you or misquoting you, the better approach is to explain why and how it happened. Unfortunately, the downside of very long posts is people may not have the capacity nor the time to answer them fully: I made it very clear within my last post I knew my response was under-whelming, but I did not have the time to write a better one. I was very honest with this. I also made it clear I felt the discussion was going in circles and, as such, I expressed the desire, in all respect, to move out of it. I disliked some of the arguments being used and as such, I have decided to leave them as is and move onto more productive discussions.

I however do not take it kindly to be quoted in such way, accused of having badly responded, being obtuse or any synonyms befitting the conversation. I especially cannot shake the feeling I am interjected in such way due to my disagreement with the leading opinion within this thread as if myself not agreeing with you meant I wasn't misinterpreting you. As such, I have decided I did not have any new to add to it nor any valid contribution to make. I have stated my points, others are willing to like it, to hate it, to take it or to leave it.

I will thus leave you to discuss among yourselves, my contribution not benefiting the general conversation. None of it meant towards you or anyone, just a statement on a conversation I feel I no longer contribute in ways which are appreciated nor in-sync with the general ambiance.

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So, I think I've officially burned out on this thread. And on forums in general. I'm not pointing any fingers or attempting to be disparaging. I just feel like what's happening is a lot of people talking AT each other instead of WITH each other. People seem to be predisposed to stating opinion as fact. I dunno, maybe I'm just stupid, but I feel like nothing's going anywhere.

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6 hours ago, maxal said:

If you feel someone is misunderstand you or misquoting you, the better approach is to explain why and how it happened.

did (3 times in fact)That is why I got annoyed. I have tried to explain myself by quoting you then explaining my position and why you have misunderstood. Then you go and misrepresent my position again. There is simply no point in me continuing to argue my point when you aren't engaging with me.

6 hours ago, maxal said:

I responded to a great many posts painting Adolin into a very negative light, some of these posts even stated how he would become another Blackthorn if he weren't restraining himself. Also, there was a strong insistence he is an immoral individual, many posts even claiming each and every one of this actions were done for selfish reasons, using his lack of viewpoints to justify giving him very negative intentions when it is my perspective everything in the textual highlights the opposite

1) Most posts simply acknowledge that there is the possibility for Adolin to go bad because he committed murder. That's one interpretation, yours is another. 

2) Most posts are not saying that Adolin is inherently selfish- they acknowledge that we don't get much insight into Adolin's PoV so we don't know how much selfishness is there in his actions. That adds a shade of grey into the interpretation of Adolin - it is as reasonable as saying we don't need to see his PoVs because his actions display his selflessness. It is an opinion. Yours is another. I would add that the WoB on Adolin being "what you see is what you get" supports your position in this.

3) There is strong acknowledgement that Adolin's action by killing Sadeas is immoral. Not everyone agrees, but there are some here that see the murder as an immoral act. That doesn't make all of Adolin's character or actions immoral. It simply means that he may be capable of immoral acts in the future. If you think the murder was moral then you will disagree with that. It is still an opinion. The WoB of "what you see is what you get" I feel supports the idea that the murder is immoral from Adolin's perspective because he hides it.

Essentially it feels like you have reacted very negatively to valid opinions regarding Adolin's character and then stated that most of the thread holds more extreme views of Adolin than is actually the case. I get that you like Adolin and relate to him, but these criticisms are not of the Adolin as you see him. They are criticisms of the Adolin seen by others. Different perspective results in a different view of the character which results in different opinions. I don't much care for the Adolin see. That is likely a very different character to the one you see because otherwise we would likely have more aligned opinions of him.

6 hours ago, maxal said:

I quoted your post because you have been one of those arguing in favor of Adolin having sociopathic behavior: I did not mean to infer you personally said he was a sociopath, but I felt some posts were arguing for it.

The problem here is that (a) if you quote someone then directly imply they said something they didn't it will annoy them and anyone else who actually reads their posts and (b) only 2 people regularly used the word sociopathic (myself and aemetha) and thus it was clear who you were referring to. Even though neither of us actually said what you implied and we both clarified our positions multiple times. Hence we both got annoyed for being misrepresented.  On top of that, if you feel strongly that something is wrong with a post then you should quote it directly and not lump multiple nuanced opinions together because it actually undermines your own argument - it makes you look like you aren't engaging so people will switch off.

Overall, I don't object to you arguing Adolin's position. It is refreshing. I just object to arguments here being reduced to black and white oversimplifications when the thread is heavily nuanced and there is a broad range of opinions. By reducing the arguments in such a way you cause the thread to become very circular as people feel the need to explain their positions multiple times and it gets dull.

6 hours ago, maxal said:

I will thus leave you to discuss among yourselves, my contribution not benefiting the general conversation. None of it meant towards you or anyone, just a statement on a conversation I feel I no longer contribute in ways which are appreciated nor in-sync with the general ambiance.

Fine - but bear in mind that it wasn't your opinions that were the problem here - it was the fact you weren't actually engaging in the conversation, you were simply repeating your position and misrepresenting others. If you feel I am being unfair, I will happily discuss it further in PM.

8 hours ago, Calyx said:

The problem is, we don't actually see these interactions that must have taken place. We get some of their internal thoughts - well some of Kaladin's, anyway. Not much of Adolin, and Shallan's internal thoughts are totally messed up until (debatably) the very end. I think there was just too much stuff happening for these relationship building moments to be really explored, which is a shame - it makes the decision at the end seem to under-deliver on a lot of the initial build up.

Yes I agree Calyx. I am on the SS Shalladin but if I'd been given enough material to jump ship, I would have done so  (albeit somewhat reluctantly because foreshadowing) - but, as you say the relationships don't seem to develop much during OB. Indeed, besides the marriage, I would even argue that the relationships between A/S/K are not much more progressed than they were at the end of WoR - we get a bit of additional material for Kaladin/Adolin getting closer as friends but not much. Shallan may or may not still like Kaladin more than is appropriate, Adolin and Shallan share some important information - but it is all "new" from the end of WoR, and Kaladin is still accepting of Shadolin (note he says in WoR that "they fit").

Additionally, I would suggest that the major conflict points in the relationships haven't really been changed. Kaladin and Adolin had already resolved their differences by end of WoR and Shallan is never really a point of conflict between them, and Adolin seems to cope with Kaladin taking Adolin's position as Dalinar's right hand man. Helaran's death still lies as a point of conflict between Shallan and Kaladin, Adolin doesn't know Shallan's history and we don't know if "Veil" will actually tell him anything.  

8 hours ago, Ookla the maladroit said:

Who knows how much control Shallan has over Veil though? They still seem pretty different.

Yes this is important - while trueShallan is still fractured, her alts can behave independently. It is a potential problem for her as it sets up intrasystem conflict. A "single" (ie a person with a single core identinty - like most of us) displays this kind of conflict as cognitive dissonance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance which we can resolve in a number of ways. 

Shallan however, splits her ideas, thoughts, and behaviours amongst her alts and so she can cause conflict between them. That can cause all kinds of issues. It doesn't have to, but it is one of the factors likely to contribute the the spontaneous reintegration of her personalities which, if she isn't ready for it, she may really struggle with. 

17 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

Sja-Anat ... what do you think about her? Is she subtly influencing Shallan's thoughts and decisions by the end of the book? Shallan didn't seem to object much to Sja-Anat being inside her body, but maybe all that lack of internal stability is not only due to Veil's trauma and battle exhaustion. Did I even get it correctly that Shallan seems to be carrying her inside somehow? She certainly seems to be able to talk with Shallan's inner voice.

I think I must have missed something here - can you elaborate your idea please? It sounds interesting.

16 hours ago, Starla said:

My initial response was that she handed her control to Adolin (and if she had chosen Kaladin I would have felt the same). I don't feel this this is satisfying for Shallan as a character, and isn't fair to Adolin. I realize this is totally an emotional response on my part and may have no basis in truth and reality, but for some reason I haven't been able to shake it. 

I know exactly what you mean! I did feel a bit better about it after listening to the audio, but I think Shallan needs to stand up (*ahem @Dreamstorm) and deal with this herself.

16 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

My only redeeming thought here was I liked how Adolin was willing to step aside for Kaladin. Albeit for all the typical male insecurities that I do not think really matter to most women. Still it showed a level of respect and brotherhood between Kaladin and Adolin that was the only thing I liked about this whole situation. I very well may be interpreting this incorrectly and it was supposed to show Adolin  loves Shallan enough to let her go to be happy with Kaladin but I like the brotherhood thing better and choose to interpret that way. 

Agreed. I am less keen on how he phrased it ("he can have you" or something iirc) but it was probably one of Adolin's best moments in terms of his character. I also think it is interesting that Kaladin and Adolin both essentially feel the same "acceptance" for Shallan's choice. They are not so different.

14 hours ago, Rainier said:

Adolin was rightly thinking that Shallan wasn't fully invested in a relationship with him, and rightly wary of marrying someone who so clearly has eyes for another.

Shallan, bless her heart, did what she always does: lies through her ducking teeth, and insists it isn't really a lie. 

This scene was the Good Ship Shalladin was about to lay anchor at port, but instead ran aground of some rocks

Yes indeed - I feel very bad for Adolin here. He is doing his best for himself and her (not that she is better with Kaladin, but she is in no shape to be a decent partner atm) and she goes and stops him. I don't blame him for giving in - he wants to be in a relationship - that's why there is so little time between his partners. I don't really blame Shallan either - she is like a ship at sea in a highstorm herself - any safe harbour will do. Adolin should be more than that to her, but I am not sure that he is (yet).

I personally see us having run aground on a coral reef - nowhere near land - as we have no supplies left, I'd even be happy to see "land of Shadolin" which is rumoured to have really weird hair before getting back on board the SS Shalladin and sailing off the edge of the world!

Perhaps my nautical metaphors are getting out of hand?

11 hours ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I don't know what's wrong with me. I keep coming back to read this topic. I'm with you GameOfGroans. We need LMB to edit the romances here.

I think I need to read this author. 

11 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

A part which she stuffed down in making this decision, when we are beaten over the head with the principle that Shallan stuffing down her feelings is Very Bad.)

Indeed - self-awareness is necessary for all KR, but crucial for a LW. "Very Bad" almost doesn't cover it - she is ripping herself and her bond to Pattern apart by refusing to acknowledge her true self. I don't think we'll open SA4 to a completely broken Shallan but I do think she'll probably have another crisis in SA4. If not, then SA5. She can't go on like this in my opinion. If she was living in a less stressful environment (eg not during a desolation) then she might manage to stay as a multiple, but given the circumstances I seriously doubt it.

11 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Beat me to it @ailvara!  Also, in re-reading this, I'm now slightly worried that given how Very Bad avoiding truths is for Shallan and we see this visible "stuffing in back of brain" of Shallan's feelings for Kaladin, that this will be her fifth truth.  Please no, just please no.  We already have Shallan relying too much on a man for one big decision, so I don't think I can take it again.

I personally think that Shallan will realise the truth for another reason and this will eventually lead her to Kaladin. She is (imo) using a man to help her lie. She needs to find the truth on her own because no-one can make her reintergrate - she has to do it, and want to do it herself.

10 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I meant infatuation as a shallow and mostly physical desire that will go away on its own in contrast to love as a much deeper affection related to actually caring about the other person.

I agree - infatuation may be a stage towards passionate love, but it doesn't have to be. I feel "love" is a stretch for both Kaladin and Adolin. Different parts of Shallan have similar levels of feelings for both men - BS describes it as love, but I personally would say it was more infatuation for both of them. Her marriage to Adolin increases the chance of attachment forming to him over Kaladin, and that is the best marker of stability in a long term relationship. But then , attachment needs to start forming before the infatuation ends or it will just burn out.

10 hours ago, Ailvara said:
10 hours ago, SLNC said:

I, myself, am a bit sceptical about the feelings as described in the book are really love. Regarding both Kaladin and Adolin.

Exactly, that's why it amused me that Bradon expressed himself in a way that suggested he sees even more to Shalladin than we do (and to Shadolin as well, but let's ignore that).

I suspect it was for simplicity more than anything! He is showing the equality of the feelings, the actual level is less important. She is choosing to "love the one she is with" to all intents and purposes. 

10 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

  She shouldn't be in an equal place with her feelings for them, truthfully, so yeah let's call this WoB decidedly pro-Shalladin 

Ha I love it - but I am unwilling to run with it (sorry). The WoB says they are equal in terms of level - and she has more scope for growing attachment to Adolin. As long as I see decent grounds for that attachment (no more "without you I fade" nonsense) I can live with it.

Hmm, am I arguing for Shadolin now? :huh:

My feelings are that she had more to gain from making Adolin like her and more to lose by him not liming her so she had to put her best foot forward with him - thus it took her longer to realise she can tell him things. Kaladin's opinion mattered less in a way, so she was freer to talk to him so they bonded more quickly. This is where it really matters whether she can be honest with Adolin going forward. If she can't, it will massively impair their ability to attach to one another. Adolin thinks that the "Shallan" persona is the "real one". How is he going to feel that a good chunk of trueShallan is a thief, a con-artist, a murderer, betraying Jasnah and Dalinar (Ghostbloods) and sacrilegious? Those are all parts of her she's pushed onto Veil - her feelings regarding Kaladin are almost an aside - part of Shallan revels in the con, in the thrill of risk taking behaviour. That isn't the Shallan he knows - he will feel like the rug has really been pulled from under him when he realises. Can he even love that woman? Maybe - but it would be unfair to expect it. Even if true

Shallan does end up attached to Adolin, what if he doesn't feel the same way?

9 hours ago, analyticaposteriori said:

Yeah but Veil is obviously not in love with Kaladin anymore since Shallan told her to drop it

Indeed. Veil is so good at doing what she is told after all.

 

 

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48 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

My feelings are that she had more to gain from making Adolin like her and more to lose by him not liming her so she had to put her best foot forward with him - thus it took her longer to realise she can tell him things. Kaladin's opinion mattered less in a way, so she was freer to talk to him so they bonded more quickly. This is where it really matters whether she can be honest with Adolin going forward. If she can't, it will massively impair their ability to attach to one another. Adolin thinks that the "Shallan" persona is the "real one". How is he going to feel that a good chunk of trueShallan is a thief, a con-artist, a murderer, betraying Jasnah and Dalinar (Ghostbloods) and sacrilegious? Those are all parts of her she's pushed onto Veil - her feelings regarding Kaladin are almost an aside - part of Shallan revels in the con, in the thrill of risk taking behaviour. That isn't the Shallan he knows - he will feel like the rug has really been pulled from under him when he realises. Can he even love that woman? Maybe - but it would be unfair to expect it. Even if true

Shallan does end up attached to Adolin, what if he doesn't feel the same way?

This is a great section.

I have stated multiple times, that the whole causal with Adolin and Shallan felt extremely... like necessity to me. On both sides. At first Shallan needed to be married into the Kholin family to save her family, which is why she did everything to play the good Vorin girl... Well, that fizzled out when the world started to end :D Now she needs him to anchor her "Shallan" personality as primary, and Adolin needs her to, well, feel good about finally having a lasting relationship. Props to him for being willing to step back.

Kaladin and Shallan felt more... natural in its development. Not necessary at all, it just happened. I think, that this is a more realistic depiction of how falling in love works, but then again, "falling in love" is hard to define.

Anyway.

What is important is, that I do think, that Adolin is attached to Shallan, but not trueShallan, which makes the revelation, that Shallan is much, much more than that even worse. There is a reason many long-lasting couples break up with the sentence "You're not the man/woman I fell in love with anymore." The longer Shallan waits, the harder it will be for Adolin to accept... Problem is, that Shallan herself sees herself as independent from Veil and Radiant, so she'll probably won't even be that inclined to tell him about those things you've listed. As she's already pushing this off to Veil with her Ghostblood involvement.

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6 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I think I need to read this author.

You do. You most definitively do. I put my hand in fire you won't be disappointed. She was my top favorite author until I started reading BS; now the two of them share the top spot. Lois M. Bujold is primarily a big name in science fiction (Vorkosigan saga, one of my favorite if not THE favorite series ever. It includes two "prequels", also excellent, that are about the protagonist's parents, but the best books start with the character Miles Vorkosigan (A Warrior's Apprentice, and on from there)), but she wrote a few excellent fantasy series too ("The Sharing Knife" I mentioned earlier, and "Chalion"). Sadly, I think she must be close to 70 now, so no more new books from her. Even in the last two or so it was visible that her skill was not as it used to be  :(

As for my theory that Shallan might be carrying Sja-Anat inside herself, I re-read that part and it might be that I got things wrong, that she was just communicating with Shallan through that mirror - although Shallan hears her voice later too, on one or two occasions. Sja-Anat makes spren similar, but somehow different than they normally are - maybe she can do it with people, too? On the other hand, Pattern would certainly be screaming his curly little head off if that happened, and this explanation would also interfere with Shallan's need to come to grips with her own inner demons. So I was probably wrong.

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And then I find these bits:

Quote

Vathah prodded at his face, still looking in the mirror, confused. 
“I’ll bet the first few times are always accidents,” Veil said. She tucked the mirror away. “Gather this stuff up. We’ll do the mission as planned, but tomorrow you’re relieved of infiltration duty. I’ll want you practicing with your Stormlight instead.” 
“Practicing . . .” He finally seemed to get it, his brown eyes opening widely. “Brightness! I’m no storming Radiant.”
“Of course not. You’re probably a squire—I think most orders had them. You might become something more. I think Shallan was making illusions off and on for years before she said the oaths. But then, it’s all kind of muddled in her head. I had my sword when I was very young, and . . .” 
She took a deep breath. Fortunately, Veil hadn’t lived through those days
Pattern hummed in warning

Oathbringer - Chapter 77 - Location 15071

So Veil existed back when Shallan had her sword, back before she said the oaths, back when she was very young. She says that "Veil hadn’t lived through those days" but this contradicts the previous statements AND Pattern hums in warning, which means he knows that is a lie too.

So Veil is not necessarily someone that was created recently in WoR, but possibly Shallan's original personality. 

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I think you're reading a little too much into that there. My interpretation of that scene is that she is saying Veil remembers what Shallan has experienced, but because Shallan has delineated them, she doesn't have an emotional response as if it happened to her as Veil, she has a response as if it happened to someone else - a close friend perhaps is a good analogy. That's basically how dissociative disorders work in terms of insulating the main persona from the trauma.

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5 minutes ago, aemetha said:

I think you're reading a little too much into that there. My interpretation of that scene is that she is saying Veil remembers what Shallan has experienced, but because Shallan has delineated them, she doesn't have an emotional response as if it happened to her as Veil, she has a response as if it happened to someone else - a close friend perhaps is a good analogy. That's basically how dissociative disorders work in terms of insulating the main persona from the trauma.

Yeah, sure. That's how I took it the first time I read it too. That's how red herrings work, right?

But you have to admit, Shallan is not present at this moment, but Veil is instead. She uses the first person (I/my) for Veil and third person (she/her) for Shallan.

She says "my sword" so that's Veil's sword, before "she" (Shallan) said the oaths.

If you believe I'm still reading too much into it, okay sure, no problem. But the fact is, that these bits exist in the books, either if they are perfectly clear or not.

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2 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

If you believe I'm still reading too much into it, okay sure, no problem. But the fact is, that these bits exist in the books, either if they are perfectly clear or not.

Yes, I don't discount the possibility, you're right that that is how red herrings work. I'm personally a little wary of finding red herrings in everything though. Like I said though, I don't discount it. If I had I wouldn't have said "I think" at the beginning of the sentence ;), though to be fair the only thing I'm really absolute about is that there are no absolutes, just strong or weak evidence for things.

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I came across an interesting quote in my OB reread, and I don’t believe I’ve seen it posted here. The quote is from Chapter 62, when Shallan tells Vathah and Ishnah about Veil. It is related to the question of whether the “Shallan” we see in the books is just another persona, or if she is the true identity with Veil and Radiant being the false personas. It seems that Shallan answers that question here:

Quote

“You don’t look surprised about this,” Shallan said as she started changing.

“I was suspicious when Veil … when you told me to go on this mission,” she said. “Then I saw the illusions, and guessed.” She paused. “I had it reversed. I thought Brightness Shallan was the persona. But the spy— that’s the false identity.” 

“Wrong,” Shallan said. “They’re both equally false.” Once dressed, she flipped through her sketchbook and found a drawing of Lyn in her scouting uniform. Perfect. “Go tell Brightlord Kaladin I’m already out and exploring, and that he should meet me in about an hour.”

So how does this reconcile with the common notion that the “Shallan" that Adolin identifies at the end of the book is the “real” Shallan? I don’t see that end-of-book Shallan is any different from the Shallan in this scene in Kholinar. I personally don’t think we’ve seen the real full Shallan in the books yet, though I think we came close during the Re-Shephir encounter. It is my interpretation (like many others in this thread) that all of her fragmented personas, including Shallan, Veil, and Radiant, make up the larger True Shallan, which is a single individual in the Spiritual Realm, but fragmented in the Physical Realm.

Taking this quote into account, I’d be curious to hear from someone who believes that the “Shallan” at the end of the book, as identified by Adolin, is her true self, and why you think that. This might be the key piece I’m missing to understand where Shallan is at the end of the book. ( I am determined to figure this thing out one way or another. :D )

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17 minutes ago, Starla said:

Taking this quote into account, I’d be curious to hear from someone who believes that the “Shallan” at the end of the book, as identified by Adolin, is her true self, and why you think that. This might be the key piece I’m missing to understand where Shallan is at the end of the book

Well, I'm obviously not of the belief, that "Shallan" is the trueShallan for that she is waaay too different from WoRShallan - way too unconfident and weak.

What I think is that by the end of OB, she still had no idea, who she is so she made the decision on the personality at which Adolin squeezed her hand. Had it been Veil? She probably would have chosen Veil as her primary. I think. Of course, that is not realistic, because Adolin acted on visual cues, but I do think, that Shallan basically made Adolin choose for her.

On a side note, this makes the scene even worse for me. *sigh* Frustrating, that she never even considers herself to be all of her personalities combined, but it is a coping mechanism after all. She sees trueShallan as a monster and non functioning.

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@SLNC I see it the same way you do. She allowed someone else to tell her who she is because she was tired of not knowing. Sometimes it's easier to go along with whatever you're told rather than undergoing to exhausting process of figuring it out for yourself.  At least she had this moment of self-awareness in Kholinar, so maybe she'll get back there at some point in the future.

It's interesting, Jasnah had my favorite quote of the whole series so far in Part 2 of this book, where she said to Dalinar “I don’t need company to be confident." I feel like Shallan is at the opposite place at the end of this book.

 

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1 hour ago, Starla said:

 

@SLNC I see it the same way you do. She allowed someone else to tell her who she is because she was tired of not knowing. Sometimes it's easier to go along with whatever you're told rather than undergoing to exhausting process of figuring it out for yourself.  At least she had this moment of self-awareness in Kholinar, so maybe she'll get back there at some point in the future.

 

But Hoid also sees the main Shallan as the "real" one not just Adolin. I have no argument that she is really made up of all these traits and certainly isn't integrated at this time but the base is Shallan as Hoid and Adolin see her. The other traits are her also but she is afraid to accept fully. At least she is now steady and working with the 3 together.

My guess; she "combines" herself after "something" that will occur in the next book. She has that Ghostblood task looming as well as any potential battles with fused that may occur.

In other discussions here numerous posts and the text refer to Adolin "snapping" in the murder of Sadeus. That seems a very interesting bow to what has to happen in Scadrial for magic to enter a soul.

 

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29 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

But Hoid also sees the main Shallan as the "real" one not just Adolin.

Are you sure about this? I figure he of all people would see through the masks, especially since he visited her when she was a child. I also thought that was the point of the two pictures of Shallan. Hoid noticed her conflicting personalities and showed her two aspects of herself: the craven, broken, cowardly girl and the confident, self-assured, radiant woman. He's taking different parts of her, parts that she might not even compartmentalize, and showing them to her so she can see herself from the outside.

Generally I'm going to assume that Hoid knows what's happening, or at least knows better than any other character we've met.

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52 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

But Hoid also sees the main Shallan as the "real" one not just Adolin. I have no argument that she is really made up of all these traits and certainly isn't integrated at this time but the base is Shallan as Hoid and Adolin see her. The other traits are her also but she is afraid to accept fully. At least she is now steady and working with the 3 together.

So, breaking this down - see bolded bits below. Wit makes Shallan create two illusions of her “whole” self. Both have the terrible memories and such. One is a mess, collapsed on the ground, unable to bear this. The other illusion is setting her jaw, accepting the pain, forgiving herself and standing up. These are both representations of what Shallan could be if she has to deal with her pain. Wit is showing her she can be the girl who is forgives herself and stands up, but both of those figures at that point are illusions. Shallan thinks she needs her personas in order to not be the girl collapsed on the ground; Wit says no, you are the girl standing up, you just have to accept the pain and allow yourself to be that person.

Note how she got into position for her “moment” with Adolin (“Shallan, Radiant, and Veil just settled down on the wall walk, back to the stone.”) which draws similarities to how her sitting self is in the Wit scene (“backed up against the wall of the room”). 

Anyway, to be brief, Wit doesn’t select the “Shallan” persona as the one standing up, as the alive Shallan is creating two illusions, and one of those illusions is the one referenced to as standing up.

Quote

He swept his hands to the sides, as if brushing something away from Shallan. Stormlight curled out from her right and left, swirling, then forming into two identical versions of Shallan. They stood with ruddy hair, mottled faces, and sweeping white coats that belonged to someone else. “Wit…” she started. “Hush.” He walked up to one of the illusions, inspecting it, tapping his chin with his index finger. “A lot has happened to this poor girl, hasn’t it?” “Many people have suffered more and they get along fine.” “Fine?” Shallan shrugged, unable to banish the truths she’d spoken. The distant memory of singing to her father as she strangled him. The people she’d failed, the problems she’d caused. The illusion of Shallan to the left gasped, then backed up against the wall of the room, shaking her head. She collapsed, head down against her legs, curling up. “Poor fool,” Shallan whispered. “Everything she tries only makes the world worse. She was broken by her father, then broke herself in turn. She’s worthless, Wit.” She gritted her teeth, found herself sneering. “It’s not really her fault, but she’s still worthless.” Wit grunted, then pointed at the second illusion, standing behind them. “And that one?” “No different,” Shallan said, tiring of this game. She gave the second illusion the same memories. Father. Helaran. Failing Jasnah. Everything. The illusory Shallan stiffened. Then set her jaw and stood there. “Yes, I see,” Wit said, strolling up to her. “No different.” “What are you doing to my illusions?” Shallan snapped. “Nothing. They’re the same in every detail.” “Of course they’re not,” Shallan said, tapping the illusion, feeling it. A sense pulsed through her from it, memories and pain. And … and something smothering them … Forgiveness. For herself. She gasped, pulling her finger back as if it had been bitten. “It’s terrible,” Wit said, stepping up beside her, “to have been hurt. It’s unfair, and awful, and horrid. But Shallan … it’s okay to live on.” She shook her head. “Your other minds take over,” he whispered, “because they look so much more appealing. You’ll never control them until you’re confident in returning to the one who birthed them. Until you accept being you.” “Then I’ll never control it.” She blinked tears. “No,” Wit said. He nodded toward the version of her still standing up. “You will, Shallan. If you do not trust yourself, can you trust me? For in you, I see a woman more wonderful than any of the lies. I promise you, that woman is worth protecting. You are worth protecting.” She nodded toward the illusion of herself still standing. “I can’t be her. She’s just another fabrication.” Both illusions vanished. “I see only one woman here,” Wit said. “And it’s the one who is standing up. Shallan, that has always been you. You just have to admit it. Allow it.” He whispered to her. “It’s all right to hurt.

 

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1 hour ago, GoddessIMHO said:

But Hoid also sees the main Shallan as the "real" one not just Adolin. I have no argument that she is really made up of all these traits and certainly isn't integrated at this time but the base is Shallan as Hoid and Adolin see her. The other traits are her also but she is afraid to accept fully. At least she is now steady and working with the 3 together.

Thanks for responding with a different point of view! I went back and read the Wit chapter again. I interpret it as Wit saying that all of Shallan’s personas are her, including the two illusions they are watching of the overwhelmed girl curled up in a ball, and the girl standing up and forgiving herself. The True Shallan is the one who birthed all the personas, and is a fully integrated whole person. In his words “I only see one woman standing here.” Wit doesn’t focus on the illusions or distinguish between her personalities, they are all her.

Compare this with the end of the book, where her personas are rapidly flickering. Adolin is seeing the individual personas, not the integrated whole. He doesn’t say “I only see only see one woman” he sees the individual fragments, picks one he recognizes, and says “that’s you.” If the fully integrated Shallan were present in this moment, I don’t think she would be flickering between the fragmented parts. This is why I don’t feel that she is steady at the end of the book, she had separated out more, and one of her "parts" has been confirmed by Adolin to be the "whole."

[ @Dreamstorm Thanks for quoting the whole Wit passage... it makes my post easier to manage. :D ]

As for the "Shallan" persona, I think she refers to it in Chapter 30 during the Re-Shephir fight. She describes it as “the prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society...she was so nice, so sweet...described as diverting or clever.” I think this is the Shallan we’ve seen so far in the first three books, the one Adolin recognizes and chooses, and the persona Shallan herself describes as false in Chapter 62, which I quoted further up in on the page. 

Also, there is this WOB, which I see referring to the true Shallan (from the WOK annotations, Nov. 24, 2017. Link).

Quote

Shallan berates the book merchant

The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two's flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.”

Shallan's father has an infamous temper; it's buried deep within her as well. If she'd been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin. It is also part of why both attract a certain type of spren…

The good news is that he says "the person she could become is buried inside her.” I think we’ve seen glimpses of this Shallan, but they’ve been very brief. I am dying to more of this Shallan with the flaring passion.

Also about this quote, I wonder what he means by Shallan and Kaladin attracting a certain type of spren? I'm not seeing the connection there.

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27 minutes ago, Starla said:

Also about this quote, I wonder what he means by Shallan and Kaladin attracting a certain type of spren? I'm not seeing the connection there.

I think he just means Truespren who can Nahel bond and make a Radiant (this was originally supposed to be a non-spoiler annotation for beginning of WoK.)

Btw, as far as "standing up", we have seen two personas do this: Veil on Honor's Path (when Veil "stood solidly on two feet" as observed by Adolin when seeing Kaladin with the windspren) and again when Kaladin lands post-TC (when Veil "pulled herself to her feet") and Radiant after TC (when Radiant is the one "stumbling to her feet" as the one "Jasnah could feel"). Both those personas choose Kaladin before "Shallan" "stuffed them into the back part of her brain."

I'm getting a little worried Shallan's reintegration is going to be a little too tied to Kaladin...

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7 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I'm getting a little worried Shallan's reintegration is going to be a little too tied to Kaladin...

Maybe... I have been thinking about how Kaladin might react if Shallan tells him about the situation in which she killed her mother. I honestly think, that he might actually commend her :D After all, she was protecting herself. I don't know, how Shallan would react to that, but that might give her another perspective, that she needs to finally accept herself as not a monster for doing that. I mean, when Kaladin, who is all about protecting and saving lives, gives her the "What should have you done except protecting yourself?" speech, that will probably get to her. At least I hope.

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54 minutes ago, SLNC said:

"What should have you done except protecting yourself?" speech, that will probably get to her. At least I hope.

Wait a minute... What if it goes the other way around and this is a progression moment for Kaladin. "What should have you done except protecting yourself? Well, that sound like a great idea. I have to start doing that instead of constantly berating myself. Protect my self if I can't poretect others, so that in the future I can keep protecting.Yeah, sound like the reasonable and realistic thing to do". I doubt that it's going to be as easy as that, it's Kaladin we're talking about here.:D

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29 minutes ago, DimChatz said:

Wait a minute... What if it goes the other way around and this is a progression moment for Kaladin. "What should have you done except protecting yourself? Well, that sound like a great idea. I have to start doing that instead of constantly berating myself. Protect my self if I can't poretect others, so that in the future I can keep protecting.Yeah, sound like the reasonable and realistic thing to do". I doubt that it's going to be as easy as that, it's Kaladin we're talking about here.:D

That would be funny. A revelatory moment for both. :D

But I think, that Kaladin's Fourth Ideal won't mean quite that. He just needs to realize, that he can't protect everyone. I don't think, that is about protecting himself.

Edited by SLNC
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So here we’re a month later and were to we stand? Well, I thought that I should try to make a summary, in order to assist people that are just now joining us. Some of the stuff mentioned below are re-purposed from the feedback email I send BS though his website, because I think it encapsulates our thoughts and criticisms well enough. The text in it was checked by @PhineasGage so part of the credit goes to them as well, they did an amazing job in helping me get my point across.

The main concerns regard the portrayal of dealing with mental issues, the developments as a character of the female protagonist, and the apparent lack of fulfillment of promises made through this book and parts of the previous one. Many of us feel that the resolution of the protagonist's mental issues were not solved in a medically realistic manner and were only used to advance the plot line.

Another point of consternation is the apparent need for the female protagonist (Shallan) to be rescued from her struggles by a traditional male archetype (Adolin). This results in him “enabling” her, so to speak, This would be bad enough from a feminist perspective, but the idea of him seeing the “real” Shallan is also incorrect when the kind of discussing dissociative states she has, and that matter is ignored so that another arranged marriage could be brought to conclusion. It is felt this has perhaps been overdone.

Lastly, it is felt by many readers that false promises were made through the text regarding the progression of two characters (Kaladin and Shallan) and their relationship, but were not addressed in a satisfying manner no matter where they might have led. As result readers who got invested in said characters are feeling upset, deceived, toyed with and, personally, that their favorite character was mishandled in order to be needlessly used as a plot device. We feel that this diminishes Kaladin’s value in the storyline simply to progress a romantic story line that is written in a very archetypal fashion.

Let me know if I missed anything. Moving on, I'll try to list what has been further discussed in this thread.

It is felt that motherhood for Shallan, at this point of her life, would not be an advisable course, not only for the child but her as well.

Adolin should be further developed as character and face the consequences of his actions, no matter if they were moral or immoral, because Sadeas murder was presented as something that would have ramifications. This wasn't shown in text, but instead it was glossed over. Possibilities for the further development of him included a darker future for him, as it's quite impossible for him to get more perfect than he already is, not to mention that it would be dull.

The marriage of those two characters feels quite rushed with a large number of issues that need to be addressed for it to be successful. These matters should be addressed in a believable manner and with an open mind, which means that if they cannot be believably resolved then the marriage should be terminated, as to preserve the interest in the development of both characters.

Another interesting plot plot-point that has been brought up is the possible fraying of the bond between Shallan and Pattern due to her self-deception and lack of self-awareness. This is supported by instances in text where Pattern displays odd behavior that could suggest that his mental capacity is diminishing.

This is only an attempt to list important points that it is felt that should be addressed and I'd be willing to add more if they are pointed out for me, as I have only listed the ones I remember from my daily perusal of this thread.

Here I'll list some links of two popular theories, one of them is my own and the other is that of @DeployParachute.

This was an attempt to summarize what has been discussed over the past month. I hope it it is helpful for people that are just joining, as well as a reminder for people that have been here since the beginning. I thought that this would be a good point in time to make this post as the thread is almost 60 pages long and has become a daunting task to sift through.

Edited by DimChatz
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