[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[PhineasGage]

I don't have much time today - nor indeed the inclination to get into things deeply here. This is mainly because I am fed up of having to explain multiple times now that I have never said that Adolin is a "bad guy" but that his murder was a "bad thing". And yes, this is aimed mostly at you @maxal I am giving up on trying to explain myself to you because you are either deliberately misunderstanding my position or I am unable to explain myself sufficiently well to make you understand it. I have tried, and failed, so rather than devote yet more time to a debate that can't go anywhere I am moving on.

To anyone else who is unclear on my position regarding Adolin I'll summarise:

• Adolin is alright most of the time. His moral code is not better or worse than most of the people of he interacts with. 
• I think he believes he acted wrongly because he hid his murder of Sadeas. If he honestly thought it was the right thing to do, he'd have admitted it sooner imo.
• The murder of Sadeas is a "bad thing". It shows that Adolin can be impulsive and reckless (which is borne up elsewhere in text) and doesn't always consider the consequences of his actions. I think he acted in hate and rage. These are negative emotions, regardless of how well justified they might be.
• Adolin, like any other normal person, has the capacity for both good and evil. He might go dark, though I don't think he has to for the story to work. I am not invested in whether he goes dark or not, as long as it is believable either way.
• I believe his attitude towards Shallan's alts are unhelpful. He is not to blame for not knowing better, but that doesn't make them any less unhelpful. I think this will feature in SA4.
• Adolin's arc is not finished - he is too close to too many MCs and thus will have some development of his own regardless of whether he ends up "dark" or not. I think the Maya arc will be part of this.
• I don't think Adolin is "true" edgedancer material - he may have enough in him to reawaken Maya and this will be interesting, but I am less sure that he will end up being full Radiant. For one thing, my own interpretation of the EDs (nb Loving/healing) is that they would not be terribly keen on killing - and would likely avoid it even in self-defence. 
• On a side note, I am of the firm opinion that murder is an antisocial behavior (aka sociopathic.....) and this is why it is generally considered immoral and illegal. The act of killing someone else, in my opinion, can only be justified in exceptional circumstances. I don't personally find Adolin's justification sufficient. I have also said that Jasnah's actions in Kharbranth are equally immoral. Dalinar's actions at (and before) Rathalas are appalling and also have no sufficient justification. To be clear, Jasnah is my favourite side character - she and I have a great deal in common, but that doesn't excuse her actions. I also dislike that Kaladin is so good at killing. His kills are legally justified, but I agree fully with his father that you cannot kill to protect except in very extreme situations. Indeed I think Kaladin is finally coming round to this idea himself. 

OK, some other thoughts on other ideas touched upon:

• The "triangle" is done, because triangles are about choice and the struggle with that choice. This is not the same as romantic arcs being over. Shallan has made her choice - one might say she has made her bed and now she has to lie in it (get it? lie /= truth and lie down... no? just me then lol)
• Kaladin is likely to avoid raising conflict between Shallan and Adolin - eg by his actual physical absence. If they have conflict, he will not be the cause of it.
• This doesn't mean romantic arcs are over.  Shallan and Adolin really need to actually get to know each other without the lies/fabrications etc. I suspect that SA4 will have either a conflict in the marriage a la the "traditional" romantic arc where the conflict causes a separation at least emotionally that ends in reconciliation or the conflict results in a situation that directly or indirectly leads to Adolin's death (possibly in SA5). NB Kaladin is not involved in this.
• Shalladin's foreshadowing is not a bait and switch. It was too deeply done on top of the "obvious" romantic arc that was alluded to in WoR. That to me suggests that the bait and switch is the marriage between Adolin and Shallan. It has no depth to it beyond standard teenage dating, which would be fine if they were dating, but for a marriage, it is as likely to cause angst as happiness. 
• I doubt Tarah is relevant to the conversation going forward except that she shows partly what Kaladin is looking for in a partner. He understands, at least in part, what his mistakes there were. I don't think he is still holding a torch for her - she is simply the person who best shows his romantic inclinations. It is normal to reflect on past relationships, especially when considering a new partner. The relationship is designed to show how much damage he was doing to his own self-interest because of his inability to put the burdens of his failures down - and they are literally and metaphorically weighing him down.
• I agree with @GameOfGroans (welcome aboard the SS Shalladin which I refuse to acknowledge is sinking - we are just lost at sea) in that there is a personal bias because of personal preferences and memories (as a point, I loved you post, and I am so sorry about your partners Alzheimer's - it is a terrible thing to lose a person, but even worse when you can't really mourn their loss because they are still partly there. I hope you have plenty of additional support around you) . I personally value intelligence more than kindness or openness in a partner. I am a "serial monogamist" I suppose, and my most successful relationships have been based on a meeting of minds (including the one I have with my SO now) so I personally would value Kaladin more highly than Adolin.  
• Neither Kaladin nor Shallan are in a good place for a serious committed relationship. They don't know themselves well enough yet to know what will suit them. This is normal for people of their age. On top of that they need to heal. Kaladin's issues are less deepseated than Shallan's (his major issue is SAD, and his depression is related to his position as a slave etc - he is letting go of those feelings, so it is not something that will dog him for all his days. His SAD is likely to continue, but it is only a few weeks long each year and so he just needs to learn to manage it. So this whole "broken people are bad for each other" thing that people are going on about is only true as long as Kaladin has mood problems. On top of that as I firmly believe that Adolin is likely to cause Shallan more harm than good by treating her alts differently, it isn't like her being with a "whole" person is going to make it a healthy relationship. Indeed, such a situation could make her entirely dependent on him. 

If anyone wants to counter my points I would greatly appreciate  you using quotes from the books or WoBs or analogies from other books. I am getting a little tired of arguing my points with quotes (which I use a lot if you check my posts)  and just being dismissed with "I feel you are wrong" without any equal level of justification for that idea. I am happy to be proven wrong, but no-one's feelings are "proof". I get people don't always have time, and that is understandable, but at the same time, it is very upsetting to be dismissed by others simply because they disagree. 

Alright. I'll be back tomorrow I expect with a more "phin-type" post. To anyone who has joined us here - welcome  It is always good to have new faces here to add to the debate! Sorry if I've come off a bit annoyed today - I can be nice, I promise  

 

 

 

[GameOfGroans]

3 hours ago, SLNC said:

I understand. Personally, I like to keep picking at the wound, but I also understand, when others don't. Whatever is easier for you.

And dissecting a story with a scalpel... Yeah, that is just who I am.

Well, I like how you accept and acknowledge disagreement. Few people in online forums can do it with style.

[GameOfGroans]

Hi PhineasGage,

I'd add that in terms of Adolin's murder of Sadeas we need to also consider the morality of his cultural context, not just our own. Just recently, I was quite shocked when a woman from a different culture told me that where she grew up they had nothing quite like Western ethical expectations and moral judgement - she learned to expect people to lie and cheat and such, and so she learned that it's OK for her to lie and cheat too, because it's normal and it's just what people do to each other. She doesn't even want to change that now, she is way too used to such a society and has learned to accept it (although, she is quite power-hungry generally, so she's not necessarily an average representative of her culture).

Alethi society is a bit like old Roman military culture (and plenty others) with power and force having priority over people's lives and integrity. Practically nobody bats an eye when Sadeas openly betrays Dalinar and sends so many people to their deaths, there are no consequences by the other highprinces, and no visible anger at him, except of course by the ones he betrayed. In this context, it's easier to understand why Adolin wouldn't think causing a death is such a bad thing - it's absolute normality where he grew up. He's much more concerned about breaking the rule that lighteyes shouldn't kill lighteyes than actual murder. And in the context of his culture, this is the absolutely congruent thing to do.

As for marriage between Adolin and Shallan being a bait and switch thing, I was entertaining the thought, but didn't BS already make it pretty clear in his other books that he considers marriage something not to be messed with (he's religious, I think?). Even if he does plan to betray his own canon, it was just sloppily done. So confused, messy and without internal congruence. Disappointment either way. I don't like when writers give up on consistency and credibility just for the sake of a surprise; it shows lack of integrity.

Admittedly, one part of me likes the idea that the next Big Truth Shallan is supposed to say might be: "Hey, y'all, my marriage is actually my biggest lie!"

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, GameOfGroans said:

Alethi society is a bit like old Roman military culture (and plenty others) with power and force having priority over people's lives and integrity. Practically nobody bats an eye when Sadeas openly betrays Dalinar and sends so many people to their deaths, there are no consequences by the other highprinces, and no visible anger at him, except of course by the ones he betrayed. In this context, it's easier to understand why Adolin wouldn't think causing a death is such a bad thing - it's absolute normality where he grew up. He's much more concerned about breaking the rule that lighteyes shouldn't kill lighteyes than actual murder. And in the context of his culture, this is the absolutely congruent thing to do.

I think, it has more to do with something, that Brandon himself said once.

Quote

A wise friend (an LDS writer) once explained that in his opinion, glorifying violence or sexuality comes when consequences are removed. The scriptures themselves don't shy away from graphic content or descriptions (scalps on swords, anyone?) The important issue, however, is that the scriptures show the destructive effect that these things can have, even on the good people who are forced to engage in them.

So, I consider that my charge. I don't sugar-coat my stories; I show cause and effect. A person cannot kill, in my opinion, even for good reasons without it leaving them scarred.

http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/253

So far, we haven't seen any real scarring for Adolin, because of him murdering Sadeas. That is why there is some speculation around that.

For the rest of the morality argument, I'm not invested enough to make a good point, so I'll exclude myself from that for the time being.

42 minutes ago, GameOfGroans said:

As for marriage between Adolin and Shallan being a bait and switch thing, I was entertaining the thought, but didn't BS already make it pretty clear in his other books that he considers marriage something not to be messed with (he's religious, I think?). Even if he does plan to betray his own canon, it was just sloppily done. So confused, messy and without internal congruence. Disappointment either way. I don't like when writers give up on consistency and credibility just for the sake of a surprise; it shows lack of integrity.

He is religious, yes. I don't think, that we'll see a divorce or adultery, but that is why I'm thinking, that Adolin will either go dark (lowest possibility imho) or die (highest possibility imho).

At the end, every character had some kind of outlook for what will happen for them in the future, what will drive the main narrative... Radiants obviously can't be pulled just like that, because we need them to show us the Order progression.

Shallan: Sja-Anat and her personality issues, our resident Lightweaver

Kaladin: Inability to speak the 4th ideal and still bouts of depression, training more Windrunners/squires, our resident Windrunner

Dalinar: Power up Urithiru, solve issues with supply, our resident Bondsmith

Navani: Fabrial research, airship building

Jasnah: Being Queen of Alethkar, our resident Elsecaller

Renarin: Corrupted spren, our resident Truthwatcher

Szeth: personal quest against the Shin, our resident Skybreaker

Adolin: nothing, he can be easily pulled without losing a lot of substance of the narrative, but has a huge tragic impact. Maya revival is a very personal thing and nothing, that would add to the main narrative. We don't need another Edgedancer PoV to see Edgedancer progression. For that we already have Lift.

I'm not sure how much I like it, but it is a possibility. I'd be lying, if I said, that I'm much attached to Adolin. I understand, that others are though.

Edited December 12, 2017 by SLNC

[PhineasGage]

56 minutes ago, GameOfGroans said:

I'd add that in terms of Adolin's murder of Sadeas we need to also consider the morality of his cultural context, not just our own.

56 minutes ago, GameOfGroans said:

As for marriage between Adolin and Shallan being a bait and switch thing, I was entertaining the thought, but didn't BS already make it pretty clear in his other books that he considers marriage something not to be messed with

I'd like to address these quickly because if you think about it, your arguments against the marriage being messed with contradict your argument that we need to consider the in-world culture contradict each other. Either the author is writing his own issues, or he is writing in-world. I don't think BS lacks self-awareness so he would know if he was writing something that doesn't fit with the world because of his own bias. He has included same-sex relationships for example despite his own religious background for this reason. 

As a point,he is religious. He is a member of the LDS church (aka Mormon) and even teaches at Brigham Young University. I just don't think he lets this colour his writing too much. After all, his own religion can be used as a way to avoid military service in the US (they preach and practice pacificism) yet he writes a militaristic culture in the Alethi.

My point with Adolin's murder being amoral is  the in-world culture anyway. Though my own ideas on this are likely stricter than the Alethi - I too am essentially a pacifistic - the Alethi cuture does not condone this kind of murder.

Look at the inworld examples we have - Adolin, Shallan (killing Tyn), Shallan (killing her father) and the various assassination attempts made. They are all done in secrecy. Not one of them is done in the open as would have been necessary for this culture to consider it right and proper. Adolin hides his actions from everyone - because he knows what he did would be considered wrong in Alethi society. His actions wouldn't be essentially ignored by Alethi society like they ignored Sadeas leaving the Kholins on the battlefield. 

It is pretty clear to me that assassination is normal in the world but it is not considered moral or legal. If it were, then Adolin wouldn't have hidden his actions for almost all of OB.

 

[Starla]

6 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

Speaking of disappointment, I'll make a very personal comment here, so if you don't care about personal, best to skip the rest of the post. In fact, I'll just hide it all as a spoiler, so read on if you are interested.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Yesterday before coming to this topic (or maybe this was even in the first few pages of this topic, I don't remember) I briefly noticed a post in which a person mentioned how they "laughed at the outpour of disappointment from various shippers" or something like that. I find it weird that some people would feed on other's disappointment. I wonder where does the need come from? Are they so desperate to feel above others?

For me, the intensity, depth and honesty of Kaladin-Shallan mutual recognition in chasms reminded me of the relationship I used to have with my partner. I say "used to have" because I lost him in last few years to early-onset Alzheimer (he's quite a bit older than me). I didn't lose him physically - his emotional and intellectual brilliance were the first to go. The way Sanderson wrote that part in the chasms, it brought up my memories of what we used to have - of feeling completely seen, understood, accepted as a person. I was hoping to be reminded of that some more, because I could really use such memories now. That's why such apparently pointless, arbitrary, plain weird dissolution of that bond felt like a double let-down, and such mean comments like the one I mentioned are very difficult to comprehend. We all (I think) look in our books for something more than the mess that is real life, for some sense of meaning and what could be. Why rejoice when people have that taken away from them?

OK, end of rant.

 

Thanks to the folks above who welcomed me in their posts - I tried to multiquote them here, but something went wrong, or I didn't yet quite figure out the system.

@GameOfGroans I can empathize with you...I recently went through the same thing with my mother. Sometimes Shallan’s coping mechanisms of repressing painful memories and blackouts triggers some deep feelings of sadness in me, and I have considered whether this is related to what my mother went through. I was deeply disturbed by Shallan’s storyline and resolution in Oathbringer. Shallan has the ability to transcend her problems and become a fully self-aware person with all aspects of her past and present intact in an integrated whole. I was so rooting for her to move in that direction, but the way the book ended, I felt that she was sinking deeper into fragmentation and loss of self, rather becoming more empowered and whole as a person. I still don’t fully understand why this makes me so sad, sometimes I have strong feelings without the words to articulate why I feel that way. Obviously some people are satisfied with where she ended and feel she is getting better, including the author himself. I hope I’ll eventually I'll see some growth in Shallan. Luckily the wonderful folks in this thread had helped me see that her storyline has the potential to continue on in interesting ways, and she is not necessarily doomed to the fate of happy princess wife who derives her strength and sense of self from a partner. 

[GameOfGroans]

1 hour ago, SLNC said:

Quote

So, I consider that my charge. I don't sugar-coat my stories; I show cause and effect. A person cannot kill, in my opinion, even for good reasons without it leaving them scarred.

 

Yeah, that makes sense, I guess. Dalinar's story line was very well done in that context. Considering that at the end of the book Adolin seems to be totally relaxed with killing Sadeas, it seems more about this is yet to come.

Sja-Anat ... what do you think about her? Is she subtly influencing Shallan's thoughts and decisions by the end of the book? Shallan didn't seem to object much to Sja-Anat being inside her body, but maybe all that lack of internal stability is not only due to Veil's trauma and battle exhaustion. Did I even get it correctly that Shallan seems to be carrying her inside somehow? She certainly seems to be able to talk with Shallan's inner voice.

@Starla, thanks for your comment - the more I know, the more I notice how books can trigger deep reactions in me by connecting to my conscious and unconscious knowledge. Maybe my above question might mean something to you in terms of Shallan's sudden fragmentation and loss of inner power?

Edited December 12, 2017 by GameOfGroans

[Dreamstorm]

10 minutes ago, Starla said:

feel she is getting better, including the author himself.

I think this is a little strong of a characterization based on what I think is the only feedback we've gotten from the author.  Here's the link to that WoB, and I would encourage people to listen to it as it comes across a little differently (to me) in the audio.  It seems to be saying that having control is a step forward, but that's not the end game for her mental health.  We also have the WoB (linked below) regarding there being one Shallan in the spiritual realm, which to me strongly suggests reintegration would be the end goal. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8699

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/262-oathbringer-glasgow-signing/#e8785

[Starla]

@Dreamstorm I listened to the audio clips, and I still have a different gut reaction to the end of the book than what Brandon is saying ("Yes, she's much more in control, but still has a way to go."). My initial response was that she handed her control to Adolin (and if she had chosen Kaladin I would have felt the same). I don't feel this this is satisfying for Shallan as a character, and isn't fair to Adolin. I realize this is totally an emotional response on my part and may have no basis in truth and reality, but for some reason I haven't been able to shake it. 

@GameOfGroans There has been some discussion of Shallan being influenced by an outside entity. I didn't pick up on it in my previous read-through, but I can see it being a possibility. Dalinar was intentionally influenced by Nergaoul for decades, so it happens. I'm currently in Part 3 of a re-read, so I'll pay close attention with Shallan's interactions with Sja-Anat to see if I pick up something I missed. It would certainly ease my mind about Shallan giving away her power so quickly. 

[StormingTexan]

I've stayed out of this thread mainly because I do not have an axehound in the fight. I rank romance very very low on Brandon's skill set so I never expect much. I've also only read the last couple pages of the thread obviously the fandom is divided I think this is the biggest OB thread.  I will say though that everyone that was disappointed in how the love triangle was handled is well justified. My only redeeming thought here was I liked how Adolin was willing to step aside for Kaladin. Albeit for all the typical male insecurities that I do not think really matter to most women. Still it showed a level of respect and brotherhood between Kaladin and Adolin that was the only thing I liked about this whole situation. I very well may be interpreting this incorrectly and it was supposed to show Adolin  loves Shallan enough to let her go to be happy with Kaladin but I like the brotherhood thing better and choose to interpret that way. 

 

[Dreamstorm]

34 minutes ago, Starla said:

I listened to the audio clips, and I still have a different gut reaction to the end of the book than what Brandon is saying ("Yes, she's much more in control, but still has a way to go."). My initial response was that she handed her control to Adolin (and if she had chosen Kaladin I would have felt the same). I don't feel this this is satisfying for Shallan as a character, and isn't fair to Adolin. I realize this is totally an emotional response on my part and may have no basis in truth and reality, but for some reason I haven't been able to shake it. 

I totally get where you're coming from, though my disgusted reaction is at a slightly different point; I hate the fact she selected the dominant persona based on Adolin holding her hand and staring into her eyes and choosing it for her.  My reaction to this is almost visceral, in fact.  I'm less upset that Adolin is the anchor for her control after the fact (though I should be; I kind of block out that gross "choosing" moment when I think about it or else it can be hard for me to like the author - dramatic I know, sorry!)  I do think the idea of control before you can heal is potentially realistic?  I'm thinking methadone for heroin addicts; first you get the destructive behavior (shooting yourself up) under control and then you can treat the underlying addiction to the opioid.  Of course plenty of people remain on methadone, so stagnated in their recovery, which I hope doesn't happen to Shallan....

14 hours ago, Awesomness said:

The thing about Shallan is she is full of potential. Deep down, I think she is a great girl, intelligent, funny, empathetic, kind, brave, etc, etc. Why don´t we actually see this Shallan? And now we have her literally divided in 3 lesser-Shallans... I get she has tons of issues, but it´s frustrating and sometimes she really annoys me; which is sad, because I like her.

... because I want this Shallan back.  I know it's likely not realistic, and I know it's not likely to happen, but I really want our end game main female protagonist to be someone readers can rally behind, not someone who spawns a dozen hate threads.

39 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Still it showed a level of respect and brotherhood between Kaladin and Adolin that was the only thing I liked about this whole situation.

#kadolinforever - always in my heart even if not on the page (talk about ship that's sunk to the bottom of the ocean!)

[Greywatch]

1 minute ago, Dreamstorm said:

... because I want this Shallan back.  I know it's likely not realistic, and I know it's not likely to happen, but I really want our end game main female protagonist to be someone readers can rally behind, not someone who spawns a dozen hate threads.

Ah, this. Part of this stems from my own frustrations with her, but it's not out of lack of desire to like her. I feel like any main female character is going to be subject to more unfair scrutiny and vitriol than any male main character, but that she also has a mental illness... I think she will get there, though, I really do. 

7 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

#kadolinforever - always in my heart even if not on the page (talk about ship that's sunk to the bottom of the ocean!)

As I said in the syladin thread, lots of fun to be had in the non-canon spaces! Ships really don't depend on how canon they are, this is a very 17S specific idea that ships are dead if they aren't canon. Kadolin is a very popular ship in other cosmere spaces on the internet, and not a word about how it's not going to happen. We know it's not going to happen - doesn't mean it's not a fantastic ship! My own fervent otp pairing.

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

... because I want this Shallan back.  I know it's likely not realistic, and I know it's not likely to happen, but I really want our end game main female protagonist to be someone readers can rally behind, not someone who spawns a dozen hate threads.

Oh, I do think it is realistic. Reintegration honestly is the only possible endgame, that I see for Shallan. She can't acknowledge the Fourth Ideal, that she has spoken as Truth, if she keeps hiding from it. Since the fracturing is a direct result of herself hiding from the Fourth Ideal, she can't stay fractured to acknowledge it. That is how I see it. Otherwise, she will stagnate. Plus, Pattern is already showing signs of bond strain. He is extremely silent after she has fractured herself and actually warns her once in Kholinar.

Quote

“Why?” Pattern asked.

“Why what?” Veil asked. “Why is the sky blue, the sun bright? Why do storms blow, or rains fall?”

“Mmmm . . . Why are you so happy about feeding so few?”

“Feeding these few is something we can do.”

“So is jumping from a building,” he said—frank, as if he didn’t understand the sarcasm he used. “But we do not do this. You lie, Shallan.”

“Veil.”

“Your lies wrap other lies. Mmm . . .” He sounded drowsy. Could spren get drowsy? “Remember your Ideal, the truth you spoke.”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book Three (Kindle Locations 14431-14437). Orion. Kindle Edition. 

EDIT: Or did you mean, that it isn't realistic, that readers will be able to rally behind Shallan in the end, instead of spawning hate threads? If so, then I misunderstood your sentence  Anyway, I agree, that I'd like to see Shallan as someone, that is more liked than now.

Edited December 12, 2017 by SLNC

[Dreamstorm]

49 minutes ago, Greywatch said:

Kadolin is a very popular ship in other cosmere spaces on the internet, and not a word about how it's not going to happen. We know it's not going to happen - doesn't mean it's not a fantastic ship! My own fervent otp pairing.

I somehow already ran out of upvotes today () but I wish I could give you one.  I could write an essay (and actually at one point outlined one) about how WoR has the cutest Kadolin set-up.  (Also part of said essay is that I could have, prior to OB, read Adolin as gay (though not out) given his inability to move romantic relationships forward and his hesitancy to have intimate contact with Shallan.  I know that's all explained away in-world, but still.)

16 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Oh, I do think it is realistic. Reintegration honestly is the only possible endgame, that I see for Shallan. She can't acknowledge the Fourth Ideal, that she has spoken as Truth, if she keeps hiding from it. Since the fracturing is a direct result of herself hiding from the Fourth Ideal, she can't stay fractured to acknowledge it. That is how I see it. Otherwise, she will stagnate. Plus, Pattern is already showing signs of bond strain. He is extremely silent after she has fractured herself and actually warns her once in Kholinar.

EDIT: Or did you mean, that it isn't realistic, that readers will be able to rally behind Shallan in the end, instead of spawning hate threads? If so, then I misunderstood your sentence  Anyway, I agree, that I'd like to see Shallan as someone, that is more liked than now.

Yeah, more about how we won't see more uniformity in the fandom (also per @Greywatch's point of how female characters are received in general), but I do agree with your analysis of reintegration being the only logical path forward for Shallan to accept her fourth truth and actually progress.  I'm wish fulfilling the idea that she could accept her fourth truth and say her fifth truth at the same time to be our first full Radiant... 

[Rainier]

3 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

My only redeeming thought here was I liked how Adolin was willing to step aside for Kaladin. Albeit for all the typical male insecurities that I do not think really matter to most women. Still it showed a level of respect and brotherhood between Kaladin and Adolin that was the only thing I liked about this whole situation. I very well may be interpreting this incorrectly and it was supposed to show Adolin  loves Shallan enough to let her go to be happy with Kaladin but I like the brotherhood thing better and choose to interpret that way. 

I'm glad at least one person mentioned this in a positive manner. Earlier when it was mentioned was mostly to bemoan Adolin for thinking he can just give her away, but to me that small section was what I had expected the entire book. Why make a point of Kaladin and Shallan longing over each other for the whole freaking book if not to have other characters notice? Adolin was rightly thinking that Shallan wasn't fully invested in a relationship with him, and rightly wary of marrying someone who so clearly has eyes for another.

Shallan, bless her heart, did what she always does: lies through her ducking teeth, and insists it isn't really a lie. 

This scene was the Good Ship Shalladin was about to lay anchor at port, but instead ran aground of some rocks. 

As for the rest, I don't really care if Adolin is good or bad. I got into his alignment earlier, but I greatly approve of his murder of Sadeas, and when the apocalypse is looming life becomes cheap. It's not very Radiant of him, but not everyone needs to be Radiant, and not all magic is so constrained and Honor's bond. I think killing Sadeas is something that Adolin is glad he did, enjoyed doing, but wishes he didn't have to do. And none of those are contradictory.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Rainier
If you're going to autocorrect me, I'll autocorrect myself

[GoddessIMHO]

22 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

And now that I've been thoroughly denied a nice, slow, elaborate and intense romance, I guess I have to go back to Bujold's The Sharing Knife to give me what I crave. It's quite uncommon that I find somebody who can evoke truly deep and not cheap-sounding emotions, and she does it really well.

I don't know what's wrong with me. I keep coming back to read this topic. I'm with you GameOfGroans. We need LMB to edit the romances here.

That said. I think WOB makes it clear he feels done with the triangle and is happy with it.

From Reddit:

The romantic angle between Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin was tweaked as I more and more referenced the idea that two different personalities of Shallan's were in love with two different people. IE--moving it further away from a love triangle, and instead showing more clearly that that Shallan was splitting further into multiple people, with different life goals.

This wasn't coming across in the early drafts, though I sometimes coulen't quite tell which responses were knee jerk "Twilight ruined love triangles! Don't do them!" comments and which were "I'm not convinced these four people--counting Shallan as two--are actually working in relationships." (I'll note that I, personally, am very pleased with how this part turned out in the books--but the betas certainly helped me get there. I'd guess that this is one of the more contentious matters of fan discussion about the book. The point of bringing it up here isn't to discredit anyone's feelings about the actual arc, just point out how the betas helped me find the balance I wanted.)

[Ailvara]

40 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

That said. I think WOB makes it clear he feels done with the triangle and is happy with it.

 

He is happy with what he's written (so far), but I don't see anything here about it being done with for the future books...

...especially since he actually stated, that part of Shallan is in love with Kaladin and not just confused/shallowly infatuated - which is more than I would say being a die-hard Shalladin shipper  

[Dreamstorm]

54 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

I don't know what's wrong with me. I keep coming back to read this topic. I'm with you GameOfGroans. We need LMB to edit the romances here.

That said. I think WOB makes it clear he feels done with the triangle and is happy with it.

LOL join the club.  (Slow holiday-workdays leave me a little worried about how much I'm on this forum )  But I don't get that at all from the Reddit post...

54 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

The romantic angle between Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin was tweaked as I more and more referenced the idea that two different personalities of Shallan's were in love with two different people. IE--moving it further away from a love triangle, and instead showing more clearly that that Shallan was splitting further into multiple people, with different life goals.

So he's saying he wanted to get across "Shallan" is in love with Adolin and Veil is in love with Kaladin.  Unless I see something that says Veil is not part of whole-Shallan (WoB that Shallan is one in the spiritual realm seems to suggest the opposite), I don't see how this can be interpreted any way other than he was trying to convey that part of Shallan was in love with Kaladin.  (A part which she stuffed down in making this decision, when we are beaten over the head with the principle that Shallan stuffing down her feelings is Very Bad.)

54 minutes ago, GoddessIMHO said:

This wasn't coming across in the early drafts, though I sometimes coulen't quite tell which responses were knee jerk "Twilight ruined love triangles! Don't do them!" comments and which were "I'm not convinced these four people--counting Shallan as two--are actually working in relationships."

So I read this as he wanted to get across that "Shallan" and Adolin are working in a relationship and Veil and Kaladin are also working in a relationship.  Again, unless we totally disregard Veil, it seems he wanted to get across that part of whole-Shallan works in a relationship with Kaladin.

He's definitely not saying Shallan doesn't like Adolin; a part of Shallan definitely does!  But I can't read this as dismissing the idea that part of Shallan likes (well he says love) Kaladin.

ETA: Beat me to it @ailvara!  Also, in re-reading this, I'm now slightly worried that given how Very Bad avoiding truths is for Shallan and we see this visible "stuffing in back of brain" of Shallan's feelings for Kaladin, that this will be her fifth truth.  Please no, just please no.  We already have Shallan relying too much on a man for one big decision, so I don't think I can take it again.

ETA2: Since I'm over-analyzing too much, I now read this below as kind of interesting...  I think if he felt it was done, he would have said something like "I hope the majority of fans are happy with how the characters reached this resolution, even though I know there is always some disappointment when there are multiple love interests" instead of basically alluding to the fact he expects people to be upset with it?

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I'd guess that this is one of the more contentious matters of fan discussion about the book.

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[aemetha]

1 minute ago, Ailvara said:

part of Shallan is in love with Kaladin and not just confused/shallowly infatuated

 Where do you draw a line between infatuation and love? In my social psychology classes, infatuation is described more as a stage of passionate love, rather than a different state to passionate love.

[Ailvara]

17 minutes ago, aemetha said:

 Where do you draw a line between infatuation and love? In my social psychology classes, infatuation is described more as a stage of passionate love, rather than a different state to passionate love.

 

I meant infatuation as a shallow and mostly physical desire that will go away on its own in contrast to love as a much deeper affection related to actually caring about the other person. I'm no psychologist, I guess this sums it up better than I could: https://www.diffen.com/difference/Infatuation_vs_Love

18 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

ETA: Beat me to it @ailvara!  Also, in re-reading this, I'm now slightly worried that given how Very Bad avoiding truths is for Shallan and we see this visible "stuffing in back of brain" of Shallan's feelings for Kaladin, that this will be her fifth truth.  Please no, just please no.  We already have Shallan relying too much on a man for one big decision, so I don't think I can take it again.

 

Haha, uninspiringly short posts are at least quick  I wouldn't mind it at all - Kaladin being the subject of her last Truth doesn't mean, that her speaking it would be in any way his contribution. It's still up to Shallan to work this out and he might not even know until after the fact. It's not like she relied on her parents speaking the first two Truths either.

Edited December 12, 2017 by Ailvara

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, aemetha said:

 Where do you draw a line between infatuation and love? In my social psychology classes, infatuation is described more as a stage of passionate love, rather than a different state to passionate love.

I think, it is because it is the wording Brandon himself used on reddit, when replying to the Beta reader AMA.

Quote

The romantic angle between Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin was tweaked as I more and more referenced the idea that two different personalities of Shallan's were in love with two different people. IE--moving it further away from a love triangle, and instead showing more clearly that that Shallan was splitting further into multiple people, with different life goals.

I, myself, am a bit sceptical about the feelings as described in the book are really love. Regarding both Kaladin and Adolin.

Edited December 12, 2017 by SLNC

[aemetha]

Heh, that link confused me even more. It seems to be arguing both sides of my proposition. I tend to believe that the infatuation described in that article is usually the first stage in the development of the interpersonal love. I don't know that I would ever call infatuation delusional though, it's developmental. Infatuation facilitates the development of interpersonal love, and so can be seen as a stage in the larger development.

Of course, you also have circumstances that differ from that, so it clearly isn't a necessary stage.

I'm not a psychologist, I have just studied some of it. I just thought it an interesting contrast of definitions.

[Ailvara]

11 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Heh, that link confused me even more. It seems to be arguing both sides of my proposition. I tend to believe that the infatuation described in that article is usually the first stage in the development of the interpersonal love. I don't know that I would ever call infatuation delusional though, it's developmental. Infatuation facilitates the development of interpersonal love, and so can be seen as a stage in the larger development.

Of course, you also have circumstances that differ from that, so it clearly isn't a necessary stage.

I'm not a psychologist, I have just studied some of it. I just thought it an interesting contrast of definitions.

1

I suppose that I (and the link) simply meant love as only the final stage of what you call love. Infatuation can be the first stage of something more, but it's not like I will instantly tell a guy that I have a crush on that I love him, even if eventually I will, so that's how I differentiate it instinctively.

10 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I, myself, am a bit sceptical about the feelings as described in the book are really love. Regarding both Kaladin and Adolin.

Exactly, that's why it amused me that Bradon expressed himself in a way that suggested he sees even more to Shalladin than we do (and to Shadolin as well, but let's ignore that).

Edited December 12, 2017 by Ailvara

[Dreamstorm]

12 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Exactly, that's why it amused me that Bradon expressed himself in a way that suggested he sees even more to Shalladin than we do (and to Shadolin as well, but let's ignore that).

I also find it interesting Brandon seems to consider her feelings for them equivalent.  I think it's reasonable for Shallan to call herself in "love" with Adolin (dating for four months and seem quite bonded - I think a lot of people consider themselves in love at that point in a relationship just from a typical "when you say I love you" standpoint) whereas Kaladin and her don't seem to have had the time needed to be in "love".  She shouldn't be in an equal place with her feelings for them, truthfully, so yeah let's call this WoB decidedly pro-Shalladin 

[analyticaposteriori]

Yeah but Veil is obviously not in love with Kaladin anymore since Shallan told her to drop it