[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[Awesomness]

2 hours ago, Calyx said:

As a side note, Kaladin is not my favorite character - but he seems to be for many others. Why do so many people want to subject him to the misery that a relationship with Shallan (who is my favorite character) would certainly entail? 

hahahha I don´t want to subject Kaladin to that misery, I just think it´s inevitable! (even after OB). Luckly this will surely happen when they are in a better place with themselves so there won´t be misery.

 

2 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

The stone was for the average reader's sake in my opinion, because the connection between Tien and colored stones is well established and I'd expect more people to remember it as opposed to one or two specific sentences in the chasm scene they read three years ago. It may have been unnecessarily for you, me and may sharders, but majority of readers don't re-read previous books before picking a sequel, so it was a good way to imply Kaladin meant Tien without spelling it.

You have a point. I read many comments regarding this scene about people thinking Shallan reminded Kal of Syl, not Tien (which is silly, IMHO: why would Kal need to be reminded of someone who is omnipresent in his life..but it makes sense if they didn ´t remember the rock).

I read it as Kaladin taking Tien´s clue and trying to find happiness in little things, the way Tien did; instead of placing his happiness in others. Though I also loved @DeployParachute interpretation, and think it makes a lot of sense. 

It´s amazing how different people read different things from the exact same lines.

1 hour ago, Ookla the Feathered said:

Perhaps that's the real contrast here. Kaladin and Shallan get the big romance plots. They fight the chasmfiend together, they huddle for warmth, they bare their souls to each other and have this intense bonding experience. I totally understand why people ship Shallan/Kaladin, 100%. If those scenes felt legitimate and that connection felt real and true to you, then sure of course you'd ship it. They were the ones who got the set up. Shallan and Adolin is just kind of Nice™. It's the cute date, the handsome prince who's a bit goofy rather than the wild and passionate longing for dark broody darkeyes she's not supposed to have. 

As you say, we were totally baited with this big romance. I thought, and still think, that´s were the story is going, the endgame.  Why would Brandon set up all Shalladin if he intended to go definitely  for Shadollin in the 3rd book of 10? 

The funny thing is, ignoring the fact that none of them seem ready to commit in a relationship (except maybe Adolin), the two ships read as Epic Romance vs Real Life. So maybe in the end this is about what each of us want to see in a romance... Thank Adonalsium this isn´t the main focus on the story!

1 hour ago, Ookla the Feathered said:

I think the Sadeas situation was one where justice was failed by the system and required an outside correction, and Nale can bite me if he disagrees.

You may have a point, though I think the issue with Sadeas´s death is that we have this incredibly good guy, who happens to "snap" and kill that hateful piece of crem. Does the fact that Adolin is good diminish the crime? Does the fact that Sadeas is bad? I personally think No, it was a murder, there are valid justifications.

In my mind there is Nice Adolin and Dark Adolin, and I think it´s pointless to try to reconcile one with the other, because neither "mindset" (for lack of a better denominator) invalidates the other. Adolin is good and is a murderer.

I do think the murder could be the beginning of Adolin turning dark, mainly because we don´t see consequences ant that´s just too suspicious...but that is just speculation...

Edited December 11, 2017 by Awesomness

[Ailvara]

9 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I like this twist a lot too!  But, if this was the twist, it should have been executed in a better manner.  I think if we had the same exact same overt storyline (nice boy vs. bad boy to put it much too simply), but had all of those little literary elements pointing towards Adolin, I would 100% be behind it.  I don't like not being able to trust in an author's foreshadowing/symbolism/metaphors (whatever you want to call it - I feel like I can't ever figure out how to state that), which is where I will be left if Adolin is the end game.  But perhaps part of Brandon's subversion is that he doesn't want me to trust him on those aspects 

Ooo, this. I have real trouble comprehending the amount of misdirection given here. What bothers me even more is that the subversion interpretation puts Kaladin in shoes of a bad boy, which is so unfair. If I had to pick a "bad one" out of this triangle, it would be Shallan... 

Also, I'm worried that sinking Shalladin would end up with setting up some pretty random last-minute love interest for Kaladin, something like Spook's storyline in HoA; the only alternative is leaving him alone (and I'm with Syl on this one). He's one of the main characters, he deserves more than being a tool in Shallan's arc. 

[gawwyt]

4 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Also, I'm worried that sinking Shalladin would end up with setting up some pretty random last-minute love interest for Kaladin, something like Spook's storyline in HoA; the only alternative is leaving him alone (and I'm with Syl on this one). He's one of the main characters, he deserves more than being a tool in Shallan's arc. 

Unfortunately I think Shallan/Adolin is endgame (if not executed perfectly). I believe that Kaladin will remain single until he dies. Ending up in a relationship would give him someone to protect over everyone else and I'm pretty sure Kaladin's need to protect everyone is going to turn out to be a very important plot point. At least when he takes Jezrien's place as a herald.

[Ailvara]

1 minute ago, gawwyt said:

Unfortunately I think Shallan/Adolin is endgame (if not executed perfectly). I believe that Kaladin will remain single until he dies. Ending up in a relationship would give him someone to protect over everyone else and I'm pretty sure Kaladin's need to protect everyone is going to turn out to be a very important plot point. At least when he takes Jezrien's place as a herald.

Actually, the 4th Ideal is (most probably) about how he cannot protect everyone, so I don't think we'll go there. Anyway, if that was the case, I think Brandon would have already killed off Kaladin's family instead of additionally giving him a baby brother to worry about.

And if we'll have new heralds at the end of book 5, Shallan is likely to be one as well, and Adolin is not, which actually fits with my theory on all this.

[aemetha]

3 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Actually, the 4th Ideal is (most probably) about how he cannot protect everyone, so I don't think we'll go there.

I mostly agree with this. I suspect it is probably more protection and leading themed though. Something like "I will protect the rights of people to make their own choices and accept the consequences". It keeps the theme of protecting, and adds an aspect of leading whereby people are allowed to develop, while also adding the caveat that you can't protect people from the consequences of their own choices.

[Dreamstorm]

38 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

What bothers me even more is that the subversion interpretation puts Kaladin in shoes of a bad boy, which is so unfair.

But he's darkeyed and darkhaired and doesn't smile, so obviously he's bad   They are probably both too good to be cast as a "forbidden" romantic interest, really, even though Kaladin was definitely forbidden for racist reasons before he was revealed as a Radiant.  Shallan herself basically says that neither are mysterious enough for her (or rather that she doesn't want to know Adolin's secret because that relationship needed some measure of mystery and she flat out told Kaladin he was no longer mysterious due to bad puns, which seriously having an annoying sense of humor can kill an attraction faster than anything else IRL too.)  So maybe we'll get a legit bad boy into the freshen up the mix - hot young Nale-esque Skybreaker?  Flies and follows Odium.  Double whammy.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

So maybe we'll get a legit bad boy into the freshen up the mix

has Zane flashbacks

whimpers

Edited December 11, 2017 by SLNC

[GameOfGroans]

Hi guys,

I'm new here, just finished reading Book 3 (was peeking around a bit after Book 2, but didn't join).

I'm actually surprised at the variety of "shipping" around here - I was never much into imagining relationship between barely known characters, or relationships based on one or two lines and details (and I can't say I really care about all the logical, real-life tidbits if they take away from the richness of a story). I enjoy feeling that I'm under both characters' skins (the reason why I don't care much about Tarah, she was just dropped there out of the blue), I enjoy the slow, detailed and complex buildup of connection and understanding that turns into passion, and I like the writer to take me there - my emotions seem stronger when triggered by somebody else's words than my own imagination. That's why this book was so disappointing for me (in this context, at least) after Book 2 seemed to go decidedly in that direction.

I mean, Adolin "knows" Shallan and accepts her as who she is? She never even told him about killing her parents, she always played a nice little Vorin girl with him. That was pretty much the whole point of their communication in Book 2. Then after she spends a night in a city in utter despair (after Grund's death) she comes to Adolin and he ... starts talking about fashion?... And then somehow, suddenly, he makes her whole and she "always loved him". Cheap, bland and lame, especially in the hands of otherwise such a skilled writer.

I have a strong impression that Brandon Sanderson changed his mind about the ending of the series - or maybe the ending for Kaladin? - somewhere between the two books or even in the middle of Oathbringer, and that's why he devised such a sharp, poorly explained U-turn in the romance plot. Otherwise, I really see no point for him to dedicate so much time and energy into building such a deep, smouldering sense of connection between Kaladin and Shallan in book 2, in the first place, and then suddenly drop it for no reason.

At first I thought Kaladin is supposed to become the new Honor, like something similar with you-probably-know-who in Mistborn. But it seems that Dalinar might be going in that direction. Now I'm not sure, but it doesn't bode well for Kaladin. Especially considering the story about the man racing the storm that he and Wit told in Book 2, in which the racer dies, but "his spirit moves on", and Wit says, basically, it's Kaladin's story. Storms. I hate when main characters die, it makes the whole book feel rather empty and pointless. I guess I'm a bit old-fashioned that way, but feelings don't choose fashion.

I can't imagine there will be any divorce/cheating/anything to change the current state of affairs, with Radiants, especially Honor-bound, being so heavy on oaths and all.

And now that I've been thoroughly denied a nice, slow, elaborate and intense romance, I guess I have to go back to Bujold's The Sharing Knife to give me what I crave. It's quite uncommon that I find somebody who can evoke truly deep and not cheap-sounding emotions, and she does it really well.

Edited December 11, 2017 by GameOfGroans

[gawwyt]

58 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Actually, the 4th Ideal is (most probably) about how he cannot protect everyone, so I don't think we'll go there. Anyway, if that was the case, I think Brandon would have already killed off Kaladin's family instead of additionally giving him a baby brother to worry about.

And if we'll have new heralds at the end of book 5, Shallan is likely to be one as well, and Adolin is not, which actually fits with my theory on all this.

 

52 minutes ago, aemetha said:

I mostly agree with this. I suspect it is probably more protection and leading themed though. Something like "I will protect the rights of people to make their own choices and accept the consequences". It keeps the theme of protecting, and adds an aspect of leading whereby people are allowed to develop, while also adding the caveat that you can't protect people from the consequences of their own choices.

I agree with you on what the 4th ideal is likely to be about. How ever i disagree that were going to see Kaladin swear it in the 4th book without massive external help getting over his hangups. The sort of help that might've been provided by a caring and understanding partner but alas we are in the broodiest time-line.

As I said earlier I think this particular dysfunction of Kals will actually make him a worse radiant, but a better herald. Especially if you consider that by not giving in to the torture of the voidbringers* he will effectively be protecting everyone, humans and parshmen alike. And by suffering eternally no less! A perfect situation for Kaladin powered-by-my-own-suffering Stormblessed.

 

Grab your tinfoil hats.

Now the assumption was made that if Kaladin is becoming a herald then we would be getting multiple new heralds (and that laughably Shallan would be one of them). I dont think were getting multiple new heralds I think the existing heralds are going to die and were going to get one new herald and one champion-with-nine-shadows. If this is the broodiest time line-then they may both be Kaladin, but I doubt it.

Hell I could be wrong Kaladins new baby brother and family may be what he needs to heal during that year of time-skip while he sails around on his sky-ship with bridge 4 singing sky-shanties. Sanderson has definitely shown that he likes making Kaladin happy right?

*using this to refer to the things that torture the heralds not humans.

 

Edit: Almost forgot to ask, Why do you think Shallan is likely to become a herald? Other than MC status.

Edited December 11, 2017 by gawwyt

[GameOfGroans]

I thought that most heralds were either dead or crazy, and when Dalinar had almost a complete group with him, that those must be the future new ones. Quite unsatisfying, if he  doesn't find a way to make it happen without all that torture, doom and gloom.

As for 4th Ideal being how Kal cannot protect everyone, I didn't really have an impression that spren were so realistic and circumstance-considering. They are much more into very black/white ideas.

[Dreamstorm]

23 minutes ago, GameOfGroans said:

I have a strong impression that Brandon Sanderson changed his mind about the ending of the series - or maybe the ending for Kaladin? - somewhere between the two books or even in the middle of Oathbringer, and that's why he devised such a sharp, poorly explained U-turn in the romance plot. Otherwise, I really see no point for him to dedicate so much time and energy into building such a deep, smouldering sense of connection between Kaladin and Shallan in book 2, in the first place, and then suddenly drop it for no reason.

You'll find a lot of people on this thread agree with you, and you expressed it very well   Per this this point, this was my exact thought upon finishing OB (what?!? - the author must have changed his mind last minute), but upon lots of agonizing, I now actually read OB as deepening the K/S connection rather than lessening it, despite the ending.  I have no idea how this will be reconciled, because I've never known Brandon to break up a marriage either, but he certainly wasn't moving away from the K/S connection in OB.  (Everyone here has been subject to my revelations multiple times, so if you want me to point out some key items, PM me.)

[aemetha]

1 minute ago, GameOfGroans said:

As for 4th Ideal being how Kal cannot protect everyone, I didn't really have an impression that spren were so realistic and circumstance-considering. They are much more into very black/white ideas.

I don't believe the oaths are entirely of the Spren. Ishar had a hand in the oaths, so while the ideas are consistent with the general ideas of the spren, they also have the hand of men in them. Also, it's important to note that the words matter less than the intent.

[LinkasZelda]

I'm still a Shalladin fan. Very disappointed that she married Adolin. It was the "right" thing to do, I guess, but it didn't feel good. Adolin and Shallan together seemed just so... cringe and cheesy.

I identify with Shallan a lot for many reasons, but this love triangle is definitely one of them. It felt realistic to have the guy you know is great and treats you well and loves you a lot, but then also having an unquenchable pine for somebody more... real. Kaladin and Shallans relationship always seemed more sincere to me, more passionate, and like the inevitable. Shallan is not a "healthy" person and relationship/mood instability is part of that. She doesn't have coping mechanisms for her problems, yet she can talk to Kaladin about it and not Adolin.

Admittedly it was frustrating that "romance or nothing" are basically the choices. I would be okay with the betrothal, as long as Shallan and Kaladin get to keep some sort of platonic, but strong relationship. They are both bonded and therefore both broken. Sure its less healthy to be always around somebody who is just as broken as you are and reinforces you bad coping habits (like when Kaladin almost encourages her to keep things locked away), but it's also nice to be with somebody who *understands*, as opposed to being with somebody you always feel like you have to improve for.

It would tear my insides up, though, for Shallan to marry Adolin and then cheat with Kaladin later on. But yet I kind of want to see it happen? DRAMA ya know?

[shawnhargreaves]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Feathered said:

And in the end I think that's probably the point that Sanderson was trying to make, the twist he was hoping to execute. That sometimes the nice guy that you go on a few good dates with can be The One and sometimes the one that you go down the start of the wild and passionate forbidden love turns out to not be the right pick after all. The subversion makes the cliches work because when you get to the end, Brandon says, "In any other story, she would have picked the forbidden passionate one instead of the one she was 'supposed' to be with, but in this story, I'm going to show you why the opposite is going to happen and she ends up with Adolin instead."

Thanks for chiming in on this thread, Feather!  I've been curious to see what you would make of it all.

I'd like to clarify something you may have missed while skimming the nearly-entire-Stormlight-novel-worth that has been written here so far.  Many of the more passionate posters in this thread are not primarily approaching this from a Kaladin vs. Adolin perspective, but instead are concerned about Shallan's mental health and the haste with which we feel she made an important decision.

I completely agree that "I'm going to show you why the opposite is going to happen" would be an interesting way to go.  I would love to read that story!  But I am struggling to reconcile your take on this with what I read during Oathbringer, where I didn't feel that Brandon did actually show us what the right pick was either way.  The way I see it, Shallan was unstable during most of OB, and also clearly conflicted about her relationship options.  Many words were spent exploring both sides of that (although more so in WoR than OB, where she was kept busy with more immediate crises).  Then at the end of OB, she made a snap decision that was not well considered, not agreed to by all of her alts, and most importantly, coming from a place of unresolved mental illness and fresh off the heels of a massive series of external stresses that would leave anyone incapable of making serious life decisions in a proper way.

To me this is has nothing to do with whether I found her relationship with Adolin vs. Kaladin cuter, more plausible, or cliched.  It's as if a friend of mine went out partying, got incredibly drunk, and woke up married the next morning.  Let's just say my first reaction would not be "pray tell me more about this new spouse: what are your common interests and I cannot wait to meet them!" :-)

I know very little about Dissociative Identity Disorder (unlike depression and addiction, with which I have enough real life experience to attest to the accuracy with which Brandon portrays Kaladin and Dalinar), but others on this thread have expert knowledge of it.  They've done a great job articulating the details of what to me was a vague intuition that Shallan has a lot of work still ahead to integrate her personalities. At least according to current real world medical knowledge, in her current state a marriage to Adolin is more likely to hurt than help that healing process.

So I am left wondering:

Did Brandon really spend so many words and so much nuance setting up her tension between two options, only to resolve it so quickly that many of us were left feeling unsatisfied?  His writing can certainly move fast over big things at times (that's the very nature of the avalanche technique), but these are usually so carefully prepared that just a few sentences can change everything yet leave me with a sense of awe about how obvious the conclusion is in retrospect and how well everything fits.  To me at least, this wasn't that.

Also, did Brandon really write a portrayal of Dissociative Identity Disorder that contradicts current understanding of that condition?  I find it unlikely, especially considering how accurately he is portraying other mental illnesses (eg. Kaladin's depression is not magic fantasy depression, but follows the same patterns and smells the same as what various people I love dearly struggle with).

Or did Brandon write a character who is following textbook DID, in which case her state at the end of OB is far less healthy than it might superficially appear, yet who independently made an unrelated and correct decision about who should be The One for her?  I just don't find that plausible, and my sense is that Brandon takes marriage seriously enough that he wouldn't either.

So I'm left with only three options:

1. Are my perceptions off, so Shallan is healthier and her decision less hasty than the way I read it?
2. Is Brandon a less careful and skilled writer than I believe him to be?
3. Or is this storyline not finished yet?

I do not like #1 or #2, so am choosing to believe in #3 at least for the time being :-)

[Ailvara]

1 hour ago, gawwyt said:

I agree with you on what the 4th ideal is likely to be about. How ever i disagree that were going to see Kaladin swear it in the 4th book without massive external help getting over his hangups. The sort of help that might've been provided by a caring and understanding partner but alas we are in the broodiest time-line.

As I said earlier I think this particular dysfunction of Kals will actually make him a worse radiant, but a better herald. Especially if you consider that by not giving in to the torture of the voidbringers* he will effectively be protecting everyone, humans and parshmen alike. And by suffering eternally no less! A perfect situation for Kaladin powered-by-my-own-suffering Stormblessed.

Grab your tinfoil hats.

Now the assumption was made that if Kaladin is becoming a herald then we would be getting multiple new heralds (and that laughably Shallan would be one of them). I dont think were getting multiple new heralds I think the existing heralds are going to die and were going to get one new herald and one champion-with-nine-shadows. If this is the broodiest time line-then they may both be Kaladin, but I doubt it.

Hell I could be wrong Kaladins new baby brother and family may be what he needs to heal during that year of time-skip while he sails around on his sky-ship with bridge 4 singing sky-shanties. Sanderson has definitely shown that he likes making Kaladin happy right?

*using this to refer to the things that torture the heralds not humans.

Edit: Almost forgot to ask, Why do you think Shallan is likely to become a herald? Other than MC status.

10

Kaladin has had his share of struggling with the 4th Ideal in OB and I don't see Brandon stretching it further than book 4. A caring partner would be cool, but he has Syl, bridge 4, his family, and his own strength, so he'll be alright and be an awesome Radiant.

I don't get why you assume he would be the only new Herald. The old ones are mostly not good for anything anymore and I don't see Kaladin becoming Taln 2.0 - there are a few other characters that are well suited for the job and won't dodge the responsibility if it comes to that. It would serve neither the story nor character development to treat Kaladin as a special snowflake in this case. If someone gets send to Damnation for those 15 years, my bet is on the whole Dalinar's Ten in Thaylen. Shallan is an obvious candidate for the Ash LW replacement - the only one, in fact.

@GameOfGroans, @LinkasZelda always happy to welcome new crewmates. "Sailing before landing". 

51 minutes ago, LinkasZelda said:

It would tear my insides up, though, for Shallan to marry Adolin and then cheat with Kaladin later on. But yet I kind of want to see it happen? DRAMA ya know?

I know. I probably would have reluctantly settled on this if that was the only option other than "it's over, trolled you guys". But now that I have some hope there's more to come, I'd rather see it go on properly. Stupid hope.

2 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

I have a strong impression that Brandon Sanderson changed his mind about the ending of the series - or maybe the ending for Kaladin? - somewhere between the two books or even in the middle of Oathbringer, and that's why he devised such a sharp, poorly explained U-turn in the romance plot. Otherwise, I really see no point for him to dedicate so much time and energy into building such a deep, smouldering sense of connection between Kaladin and Shallan in book 2, in the first place, and then suddenly drop it for no reason.

 

If he did change his mind in the middle, he had plenty of time to withdraw all Shalladin from OB and be done with it - it's not like it would hurt the plot in any way. So either we misunderstood him from the start or he's not done. I obviously hope for the second option.

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

But he's darkeyed and darkhaired and doesn't smile, so obviously he's bad   They are probably both too good to be cast as a "forbidden" romantic interest, really, even though Kaladin was definitely forbidden for racist reasons before he was revealed as a Radiant.  Shallan herself basically says that neither are mysterious enough for her (or rather that she doesn't want to know Adolin's secret because that relationship needed some measure of mystery and she flat out told Kaladin he was no longer mysterious due to bad puns, which seriously having an annoying sense of humor can kill an attraction faster than anything else IRL too.)  So maybe we'll get a legit bad boy into the freshen up the mix - hot young Nale-esque Skybreaker?  Flies and follows Odium.  Double whammy.

Shallan really likes her mysteries, doesn't she? Even when there's no need for one. How healthy, especially in her case.

I may not like our Skybreakers, but I'm not sure if I wish any of them to get into such pile of femme fatale Shallan crem... Why do I wish this upon Kaladin then? Stupid emotions.  

Edited December 11, 2017 by Ailvara

[gawwyt]

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

Kaladin has had his share of struggling with the 4th Ideal in OB and I don't see Brandon stretching it further than book 4. A caring partner would be cool, but he has Syl, bridge 4, his family, and his own strength, so he'll be alright and be an awesome Radiant.

I don't get why you assume he would be the only new Herald. The old ones are mostly not good for anything anymore and I don't see Kaladin becoming Taln 2.0 - there are a few other characters that are well suited for the job and won't dodge the responsibility if it comes to that. It would serve neither the story nor character development to treat Kaladin as a special snowflake in this case. If someone gets send to Damnation for those 15 years, my bet is on the whole Dalinar's Ten in Thaylen. Shallan is an obvious candidate for the Ash LW replacement - the only one, in fact.

Im stabbing wildly in the dark with the whole kal is only new herald theory, but I do have some small pieces of reasoning that he would get the snowflake treatment. If the suspiciously like a Hemalurgic spike for storm-light dagger wasn't in play I wouldn't entertain the theory at all. If it wasn't Moash holding it.. If the champion with nine shadows had ten shadows.. If the currently stored herald investiture had come from any of the heralds other than the Kaladin analog that is Jezrian..

 

Theory breakdown:

Spoiler

 

Spike dagger kills heralds and stores their investiture then transfers it to a non herald when they're stabbed.

Odiums plan is to steal the investiture of heralds to make his champion.

Odium knows Kaladin would/will be Dalinars champion and that Kal would beat the champion with 9 shadows.

Odium sends Moash to kill Kaladin in a sneak attack.

Moash has no clue that he shouldn't use the dagger on Kaladin and does so. Renarin is involved so Odium doesnt know the scale of his screw up.

Kaladin is seemingly killed as hes sent to whatever purgatory it is the heralds go to when they die.

Moash goes on to collect the other nine heralds investiture and creates the champion with nine shadows.

Kal breaks sometime later returns and kills Moash. As Odium had seen.

 

 

Edited December 12, 2017 by gawwyt

[Awesomness]

Wouw! new crewmates! Welcome everyone!

3 hours ago, gawwyt said:

At least when he takes Jezrien's place as a herald.

This is starting to establish as a firm possibility. I´ve been thinking, if the skybreaker´s 5th ideal is "I am law", could the other radiant´s 5th ideal be "I am Honor", "I am truth", "I am unity" (I know! the last one was dismissed by Brandon saying Dalinar only swore one ideal, but It still bugs me!), etc?

2 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

I mean, Adolin "knows" Shallan and accepts her as who she is? She never even told him about killing her parents, she always played a nice little Vorin girl with him. That was pretty much the whole point of their communication in Book 2. Then after she spends a night in a city in utter despair (after Grund's death) she comes to Adolin and he ... starts talking about fashion?... And then somehow, suddenly, he makes her whole and she "always loved him". Cheap, bland and lame, especially in the hands of otherwise such a skilled writer.

You seem to be in the first stage of grief (shock). We are on the second (denial)! This is not the end, sailing before landing my friend...

2 hours ago, GameOfGroans said:

Especially considering the story about the man racing the storm that he and Wit told in Book 2, in which the racer dies, but "his spirit moves on", and Wit says, basically, it's Kaladin's story. Storms

I used to think Fleet´s story was a foreshadowing of Kaladin´s death. I don´t exactly know when or why did I change my mind, but right now I´m more inclined to the new heralds idea, so he won´t die, just go to damnation (?). Talking seriously, I think there will be a new kind-of oathpact, similar but with different terms. We´ll have to wait and see...

3 hours ago, gawwyt said:

Now the assumption was made that if Kaladin is becoming a herald then we would be getting multiple new heralds (and that laughably Shallan would be one of them).

The thing about Shallan is she is full of potential. Deep down, I think she is a great girl, intelligent, funny, empathetic, kind, brave, etc, etc. Why don´t we actually see this Shallan? And now we have her literally divided in 3 lesser-Shallans... I get she has tons of issues, but it´s frustrating and sometimes she really annoys me; which is sad, because I like her.

I´d like to see them all as Heralds 2.0.

2 hours ago, LinkasZelda said:

Admittedly it was frustrating that "romance or nothing" are basically the choices. I would be okay with the betrothal, as long as Shallan and Kaladin get to keep some sort of platonic, but strong relationship. They are both bonded and therefore both broken. Sure its less healthy to be always around somebody who is just as broken as you are and reinforces you bad coping habits (like when Kaladin almost encourages her to keep things locked away), but it's also nice to be with somebody who *understands*, as opposed to being with somebody you always feel like you have to improve for.

I agree with most of this, but I don´t think Kaladin encourages her with her coping mechanism. To say the truth, back in the chasm when Shallan was in a good place and Kal was at his bottom, she surely sold her coping methods as the best. She made fun of his depression and then sayd with a smile in her face that her life was crem, but she kept positive. First she convinces him that her method is The method, then she convinces herself that Kaladin encourages her method........................

1 hour ago, shawnhargreaves said:

To me this is has nothing to do with whether I found her relationship with Adolin vs. Kaladin cuter, more plausible, or cliched.  It's as if a friend of mine went out partying, got incredibly drunk, and woke up married the next morning.  Let's just say my first reaction would not be "pray tell me more about this new spouse: what are your common interests and I cannot wait to meet them!" :-)

Hhahaha this was a great way of summarizing it!

 

After rereading this post I realize I am a little sarcastic right now, sorry 

[Kaymyth]

16 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

Regarding the other post, the whole experience was extremely disturbing to me and I've been feeling very apprehensive in posting anything since that thread was closed down. I may appear as a logical person but that doesn't mean that I didn't feel harassed and bullied and quite frankly very unwelcome in the forums (especially by a moderator's PM the next day, after the whole thing was done and closed). Yes, I was emotionally charged when I used 'ph' on that specific post, but other than that, I certainly wasn't trolling when I made the original post and I was completely sincere in creating a logical and respectful discussion.

As the moderator in question here, I feel I ought to add - while the thread was closed down, there were two reports still open that I felt needed addressing (one of them your own). I did not make that clear in my PM, and for that I apologize.

But to build on what @Chaos said, if you feel that my PM was in error or problematic, the appropriate response was to either respond and open a dialogue, or escalate it to one of the admins.

So far as I am concerned, the door to a discussion there is still open should you wish to walk through it. But I am not going to address the details in public unless you specifically ask me to.

[maxal]

On 12/10/2017 at 10:16 PM, aemetha said:

...

15 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

... 

I will not quote the entirety of your posts, I will however say I wish to move out of the "Adolin is immoral" discussion as I feel everything has been said onto the matter. My stance is firm and, for the shake the argument, I will briefly resume it here.

We have WoB evidence, in-world evidence, numerous quotes which strongly imply Adolin's actions aren't against the morality within Roshar. We also have WoB evidence, in-world-evidence Adolin's actions are completely illegal as many people would consider Sadeas offered him a challenge which was rightly responded to. As such, stating Adolin is an immoral individual with sociopathic tendencies on the virtue he killed one man while falling to feel properly ashamed is pushing the character analysis beyond what I perceive the written text is conveying. Whether or not we personally find Adolin's action immoral is irrelevant as Adolin isn't evolving within our modern day world: he is an Alethi man, a trained career soldier having grown-up in a world where murder is not seen within the same light as it is within our own world. Dalinar, Gavilar, Sadeas multiplied the ploys to murder their opponents for no other reasons than their personal advancement and Alethkar is relatively fine with their proceeding. I cannot conceive why Adolin is held to a different standard in being considered a vile human being for his stabbing on a man having been presented as the greatest villain within the story. Sadeas had no redeeming quality, he professed there was absolutely nothing Adolin could do to stop him from killing his father, his cousin, destroy his family and his princedom.

As someone else put it, his back was set against the wall and despite opinions of the contrary, I firmly believe he had no had other viable options. I have been within those discussions for four years and one of my greatest regrets is saying how Oathbringer brought no closure on this specific arc. As always, there are readers being firmly convinced there were other options, but Adolin was too enraged, his desire to kill Sadeas, too long suppressed, was too strong for him to be bothered to think about them. I strongly disagree with this analysis as I do feel the textual has provided enough evidence there was no legal options to deal with Sadeas, not ones having no cost the Kholin princedom is not able to afford (civil war). People will usually barge in, at this stage, to claim they could have trialed Sadeas or send assassins, but my take is the textual showed us it was impossible for them to do the former and the later is not considered a moral valid solution. Alethi like to do their killing in plain sight, using assassins is not considered acceptable: Brandon himself has confirmed such was the morality in Alethkar. The fact a few individuals such as Sadeas or Jasnah are willing to employ such means merely means they aren't highly moral individuals and/or they won't be bothered by what is proper. It is however clear neither Dalinar, Navani nor Adolin consider assassination as a solution, I thus do not comprehend why Adolin should have thought of it. By all means, his stabbing of Sadeas is probably better seen and less damaging to the Kholin household then being known for having send an assassin: of course this last bit is myself speculating, but I wouldn't be surprised to be right.

On the matter of Adolin having a suppressed Blackthorn sleeping inside him: just plain no. He has never shown anything but care and concern towards his soldiers, he openly dislike the killing, being forced to kill Alethi doesn't settle well with him and he has a moment where he is ill-at-ease with the carnage he is causing. There are reasons why he set himself to fight the thunderclast instead of mere soldiers even if the textual doesn't highlight it. Adolin also has a moment of weakness, back in Narack, as he couldn't be the war machine the combat demanded of him. As such, the idea Adolin may turn into another Dalinar by hacking through his own soldiers or torching a whole city filled with women and children out of personal revenge quite frankly goes against everything the narrative has told us of Adolin.

And all of this because he murdered Sadeas. My last thoughts are readers have always been, for reasons I never managed to properly identified, be willing to firmly believe Adolin was evil or would become evil or was a bad person and since Oathbringer didn't properly address the matter, those perceptions remain. I however do not think readers are supposed to read Adolin as a immoral person because I sincerely don't believe this is how he was written, no matter what my other complains may be.

This is brief resume of my current stance on the matter in order to close the discussion, this way everyone knows where I stand.

20 hours ago, Ookla the Feathered said:

I think it's a good point. Yes, we want "strong female characters" but I don't think that means characters who never get support. Adolin helps her in the end, but I don't think that undermines who Shallan is or her own narrative arc. She has many aspects of her life that don't revolve around Adolin or her love life or any part of that. I don't have an issue with her getting support from her love interest at a low point in her life. When you're worn out and don't have energy left, that's when you need someone to help get you on your feet again.

You're right that we're on different sides of the debate, but I explained some of why I find them incompatible above. I think that though they did have a connection, it wasn't something that was going to be sustainable through the difficulty in spanning the gap in their unique problems. Though they bond, I have always preferred them as supportive, snarky friends, rather than getting tied up in the tangles of what a romance would be between them. And I'm pleased that they seem to be heading in this direction.

And I've specifically saved this point for last, because you're right, it's something that hasn't been talked about enough. It's also important! Adolin's not working through trauma in the way that Shallan and Kaladin are, but a good relationship is reciprocal, which means we need Shallan to be contributing to Adolin.

To me, we see this in the way that Shallan bolsters Adolin's insecurities. He confesses the issue that he's been struggling with, the murder, to her, and she's supportive and helps him come to terms with it. We also see Adolin trying to find his place in the new world and struggling with his relative unimportance within it. He was the top of the top all his life, the expert duelist, the one who got all the girls, the Highprince's son, and now he's surrounded by people with superpowers who are fighting the apocalypse and he feels... inadequate.

He's sure that Shallan will pick Kaladin because Kaladin has magic flight and does all those dang dramatic hero moments, but Shallan doesn't want superpowers and the dramatic hero moments. She wants Adolin, the kind, goofy, supportive guy that brings her food when he hears she's not feeling well. What Adolin needed was to hear someone say "Yes, you. You're the one I want. You don't need all the bells and whistles. You're enough."

And I think Shallan's also good for him because even before everyone starts dealing with the apocalypse, she's not dazzled. She thinks Adolin is very handsome, but she's not intimidated by his status or the fact that he's Alethkar's most eligible bachelor. She cracks jokes with him and treats him like a person.

Despite having many "friends," Adolin didn't seem to be great at making really true connections with people. His girlfriends all leave because he doesn't support the relationships well, his supposed best friend says he doesn't want to hang out anymore because the Kholins are "not fashionable" at the moment, and then enters a rigged duel to the potential death against him. Adolin needs someone that he can just cut loose with and be a person. He and Renarin have a great relationship, but he also needs people who aren't his brother.

Shallan is good for him because she cracks poop jokes and teases him. She treads the line of not letting him think too much of himself when he's all special and important and also helping lift his spirits when he's worried that he's not enough. Her simple, stark affection for him is really something that keeps him grounded and helps him keep on the right track. 

And I'm gonna cut myself off there. If someone responded with a point that I missed, I'm sorry, I was trying to hit the big ones. Goodness this a thread and a half, isn't it?

I will say over the course of these conversations, I've gone from "yeah, it's cute I guess" on Shallan/Adolin to maybe actually shipping it for real. So thanks for that, guys? I'm starting to really feel the heat here, finally.

I quoted these two parts because I needed to say a thing or two on how Shallan is portrayed as weak. My thoughts were not geared towards her choosing Adolin, but more towards her being persistently pictured as needing others to care for her. Each time she has "a scene" where she "does something" she ends it needing to rest, to be blanketed, to be fed hot tea and to have a myriad of people festering over her. This has bothered me as I felt she was constantly both acting and being portrayed as the "weak little girl". I understand using stormlight it tiring, but Kaladin too is using stormlight and physically fighting: we don't see him needing to be fuss over nor going off to rest while others keep on working. Adolin goes through sleepless nights, physical fighting, I stopped counting how many injuries and he too doesn't need to lay down nor being fed hot tea after each fight. Even Renarin goes to fight the thunderclast after his very emotional scene with Jasnah and doesn't need to crumble in blankets afterwards.

As such, I was bothered by this part of Shallan's characterization.

For the second part, thank you for expending your thoughts. I'll admit I am worried over the union as my feelings are Adolin is, once again, putting himself into a relationship where he'll be the main provider of emotional support. It seems he has been clustered into such role for practically all of his life and it was sadden to see Shallan crumbled down in ways which are beyond repairs. Can she be the Highlady? Does she even have this capacity? Adolin needed not just a wife, but a partner. Can Shallan be this woman or will she flee as it proves too difficult or not interesting enough?

While it is true Adolin is getting a safe get-away where he can act himself, be himself, outside of the pressure his father constantly put on him, but will this be enough? 

One of my concerns with the future of SA is how Brandon has focused so much of the narrative onto the topic of mental illness. I fear he may downplay issues non mentally ill people are having, making them insignificant and not worthy of thought. As such, the Adolin/Shallan union appear as it may become one of those instance where all the focus is kept on Shallan, her problems, her issues and none will ever move onto Adolin. This too has bothered me. I wish Adolin to be happy with Shallan and I do think Shallan is a good match, but I also felt Brandon broke her too badly in OB. She will never be whole again and I can't see how Adolin will pay the price for Pattern forcing Shallan to speak a truth she was not ready to speak.

15 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Firstly, clearly Renarin asks - because he heals Adolin. You acknowledge that then contradict yourself. We see it happen from Dalinar's perspective - which means he is watching and that he cares. He trusts the people who he sees as best able to manage to do their jobs. The Radiants job is to protect people and fight the voidbrngers - Adolin isn't one. His role of stepping up beside Dalinar as an equal has been usurped by the Radiants around him. This is something that likely bothers Adolin. Adolin sets great store by Dalinar's opinion (as you;ve noted) so this is likely a very difficult moment for him - he isn't used to being ignored - indeed Renarin, perhaps more than any of the other Radiants, gets his place as the first person to get commands. I would be interested to see how Adolin handles that. We get a tiny moment when he is less than pleased about Renarin when we see a rather uncharitable thought about Renarin arriving at the Thunderclast : "Took you long enough". He doesn't say it - he thinks it. That's not fair - it isn't Renarin's fault that Adolin got there first - they took different routes - and what is the betting that Renarin was healing people on the way? He also doesn't have any real experience fighting and moving through a battlefield yet so is it surprising that he would take longer? I don't think so. This thought is unworthy of Adolin - Renarin has never (until recently) held any kind of position above Adolin - and this is how he handles it? I personally suspect that it isn't Adolin thinking it - or perhaps it is something that it being egged on - but if I'm wrong and it is Adolin then he is definitely not as good a brother to Renarin as Renarin is to him. 

First apologies for not quoting more, but this was a very long post and I fear I do not have the time to fully respond. I will therefore broach this one point alone as I feel my earlier point basically respond to a lot of it. My stance on Adolin's morality remains firm.

On the scene I have referenced, what bothered is how little reaction we saw from Dalinar upon seeing his son with a mortal wound. Of course, Renarin heals him, but I felt the dispatching of the Radiants, while Adolin remains on the ground, was cold. I expected more out of Dalinar, I expect more out of a parent, no matter how much they trust their children. This lack of concern, reaction within Dalinar's character on matters related to Adolin has always bothered me. Of course this is an argument I have often had and usually fail to convince many people. I can thus only share my impressions and general thoughts on the matter. I have always read an emotional distance in between Dalinar and Adolin which I feel was well explained with the flashbacks. I of course have to read to see if Brandon will pick it up within a future thread or not, but Oathbringer has not dispel my thoughts on the matter, it has reinforced them.

On the matter of Adolin not acting like the perfect supporting encouraging brother towards Renarin during the thunderclast scene, need I remember you how injured he was? He is suffering from hundred of cuts, he is covered in his own blood, his injured his leg in ways which prevents him from putting weight on it, he hit his head hard enough to black out, his arms are hurting him and the only reason he is even standing up is out of sheer will-power. He speaks of every movement he tries to make as pure agony. He also went through several moments where he tried to evade a creature determine to squish him with this awful rock grinding sound which was terrifying enough to read, I can't imagine living it. Adolin is certainly not immune to fear, he often speak of feeling terror during powerless scenes where he witnesses his impeding death. So considering all of this, I would say the guy can get a break out of not being perfectly supportive towards Renarin, ought of wanting the Radiants to come forward. He gets to have a break from saying: "Took you long enough" when the guy is barely standing, injured and making his final stance as he ought to know fleeing is useless due to his injuries and fighting will be equally useless as he's probably too weak to parry decently anymore. I think it is really pushing it a tad far to hold it against Adolin to wish Renarin got here sooner: he's hurt! 

I really find it harsh to state Adolin is suddenly not a good brother to Renarin because his reaction was not spot perfect on the day he was nearly drowning in his own blood. Adolin is a human being too, he gets not be perfect at times, he gets to be a bit more abrupt when he's hurting: he does not make less supportive or less of a good brother to Renarin, it just means within this one Adolin his plate is understandably quite fill.

I wish to quote out more, but I have not more time tonight. So tomorrow.

Edited December 12, 2017 by maxal

[aemetha]

5 minutes ago, maxal said:

I cannot conceive why Adolin is held to a different standard in being considered a vile human being for his stabbing on a man having been presented as the greatest villain within the story.

Whoever said that? I certainly didn't, and I haven't seen anyone else argue this at any point. Honestly, this is a really hyperbolic statement, which is really a bit of a theme in some of these posts. I made one statement that was misunderstood, which I've clarified three times now, and somehow it just continues to be inflated into something much larger than it is. Good people do bad things sometimes. That's the essence of what anyone said about it on my side of the argument.

His act was sociopathic has in your commentary become he's a sociopath has become he's a vile human being.

You see what's going on there? I feel at this point most of us are arguing something that was said, and you are arguing something that you've inferred. I don't expect you to agree with me, I do expect you to at least accept my explanation of what I think rather than insinuating that you know my mind better than I do.

[LinkasZelda]

4 hours ago, Awesomness said:

I agree with most of this, but I don´t think Kaladin encourages her with her coping mechanism. To say the truth, back in the chasm when Shallan was in a good place and Kal was at his bottom, she surely sold her coping methods as the best. She made fun of his depression and then sayd with a smile in her face that her life was crem, but she kept positive. First she convinces him that her method is The method, then she convinces herself that Kaladin encourages her method........................

Yeah, that's why I said "almost". Sorry it may not have been very clear haha. I was nodding to the fact that I'm sure he wasn't ACTUALLY encouraging her to be unhealthy. But it's kind of a situation where Kaladin doesn't have much experience and doesn't really say the right thing. He's just so in awe that she can *do* that and lauds her for it. To be honest though, I think that's how Shallan interprets it. I think that conversation, if anything, just made her feel that what she's doing is "right" because Kaladin is impressed by it. Unfortunately, Kaladin doesn't get much context into Shallan's life since the chasm, and so he can't really talk to her properly about whether or not it's good. He's just stuck on how she acted in the chasm 

[GameOfGroans]

8 hours ago, shawnhargreaves said:

Did Brandon really spend so many words and so much nuance setting up her tension between two options, only to resolve it so quickly that many of us were left feeling unsatisfied?  His writing can certainly move fast over big things at times (that's the very nature of the avalanche technique), but these are usually so carefully prepared that just a few sentences can change everything yet leave me with a sense of awe about how obvious the conclusion is in retrospect and how well everything fits.  To me at least, this wasn't that.

Exactly. That's why I feel that this whole story line is a hasty patch for Sanderson's last-minute change of mind about the ending. It's just so inconsistent, in intellectual, emotional and just plain common sense.

Quite a few segments of OB were written like they were a setup for Kaladin and Shallan to deepen their mutual understanding, only to be somehow diluted, left dangling, or patched with something that seemed... forced, vague, not genuine, like an afterthought - total opposite of Book 2. If Sanderson planned from the start to have their bond slowly dissolve, he made an incredibly poor, amateurish job out of it (besides, why then build it in the first place?). So I can only conclude he didn't plan it from the start.

I had a thought that Shallan is not quite herself because that Unbound entity from Kholinar Oathbringer gate got into her, but I don't think Sanderson would make such somersaults with relationships, he likes them to be stable and tidy. Besides, in that case I don't think he'd make such a point about Kaladin deciding he was never really in love with her after all.

I just don't think Sanderson is the kind of author who enjoys sudden twists and turns for their own sake, not to mention the importance that vows have in this story. I mean, I enjoy intellectual challenge and depth, but I also read with my heart, not just my mind, and I believe Sanderson also writes from his heart, not only his mind. And the heart needs some internal consistency at least. I just don't think he would make such a mess just to please those who want sharp twists without previous emotional buildup. I don't want to grasp to straws just to be disappointed again.

Speaking of disappointment, I'll make a very personal comment here, so if you don't care about personal, best to skip the rest of the post. In fact, I'll just hide it all as a spoiler, so read on if you are interested.
 

Spoiler

 

Yesterday before coming to this topic (or maybe this was even in the first few pages of this topic, I don't remember) I briefly noticed a post in which a person mentioned how they "laughed at the outpour of disappointment from various shippers" or something like that. I find it weird that some people would feed on other's disappointment. I wonder where does the need come from? Are they so desperate to feel above others?

For me, the intensity, depth and honesty of Kaladin-Shallan mutual recognition in chasms reminded me of the relationship I used to have with my partner. I say "used to have" because I lost him in last few years to early-onset Alzheimer (he's quite a bit older than me). I didn't lose him physically - his emotional and intellectual brilliance were the first to go. The way Sanderson wrote that part in the chasms, it brought up my memories of what we used to have - of feeling completely seen, understood, accepted as a person. I was hoping to be reminded of that some more, because I could really use such memories now. That's why such apparently pointless, arbitrary, plain weird dissolution of that bond felt like a double let-down, and such mean comments like the one I mentioned are very difficult to comprehend. We all (I think) look in our books for something more than the mess that is real life, for some sense of meaning and what could be. Why rejoice when people have that taken away from them?

OK, end of rant.

 

Thanks to the folks above who welcomed me in their posts - I tried to multiquote them here, but something went wrong, or I didn't yet quite figure out the system.

Edited December 12, 2017 by GameOfGroans

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, GameOfGroans said:

Exactly. That's why I feel that this whole story line is a hasty patch for Sanderson's last-minute change of mind about the ending. It's just so inconsistent, in intellectual, emotional and just plain common sense.

Quite a few segments of OB were written like they were a setup for Kaladin and Shallan to deepen their mutual understanding, only to be somehow diluted, left dangling, or patched with something that seemed... forced, vague, not genuine, like an afterthought - total opposite of Book 2. If Sanderson planned from the start to have their bond slowly dissolve, he made an incredibly poor, amateurish job out of it (besides, why then build it in the first place?). So I can only conclude he didn't plan it from the start.

I had a thought that Shallan is not quite herself because that entity from Kholinar Oathbringer gate got into her, but I don't think Sanderson would make such somersaults with relationships, he likes them to be stable and tidy. Besides, in that case I don't think he'd make such a point about Kaladin deciding he was never really in love with her after all.

I just don't think Sanderson is the kind of author who enjoys sudden twists and turns for their own sake, not to mention the importance that vows have in this story. I mean, I enjoy intellectual challenge and depth, but I also read with my heart, not just my mind, and based on his previous books, I just don't think would make such a mess just to please those who want sharp twists without previous emotional buildup. I don't want to grasp to straws just to be disappointed again.

Speaking of disappointment, I'll make a very personal comment here, so if you don't care about personal, best to skip the rest of the post. In fact, I'll just hide it all as a spoiler, so read on if you are interested.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Yesterday before coming to this topic (or maybe this was even in the first few pages of this topic, I don't remember) I briefly noticed a post in which a person mentioned how they "laughed at the outpour of disappointment from various shippers" or something like that. I find it weird that some people would feed on other's disappointment. I wonder where does the need come from? Are they so desperate to feel above others?

For me, the intensity, depth and honesty of Kaladin-Shallan mutual recognition in chasms reminded me of the relationship I used to have with my partner. I say "used to have" because I lost him in last few years to early-onset Alzheimer (he's quite a bit older than me). I didn't lose him physically - his emotional and intellectual brilliance were the first to go. The way Sanderson wrote that part in the chasms, it brought up my memories of what we used to have - of feeling completely seen, understood, accepted as a person. I was hoping to be reminded of that some more, because I could really use such memories now. That's why such apparently pointless, arbitrary, plain weird dissolution of that bond felt like a double let-down, and such mean comments like the one I mentioned are very difficult to comprehend. We all (I think) look in our books for something more than the mess that is real life, for some sense of meaning and what could be. Why rejoice when people have that taken away from them?

OK, end of rant.

 

Thanks to the folks above who welcomed me in their posts - I tried to multiquote them here, but something went wrong, or I didn't yet quite figure out the system.

Yes. It all boils back down to confusion. There is still so much left dangling, but we're supposed to feel closure. This is so... different to what I'm used to in Brandon's written romantic plots. They are not always the best, but atleast they feel closed, when you're supposed to feel closure. With Adolin and Shallan there is just so many... confusions. I mean in the scene before the wedding, we still get it blared in the face, that Shallan is wearing a sapphire gown for the wedding. Right after a few pages back Moash killed Jezrien, patron of the Windrunners, with a dagger, that had a sapphire gemstone. What are we supposed to think about this? There is this obvious connection between sapphire and the Windrunners. Sure, there is Kholin blue, but it has always just been described as Kholin blue and not sapphire, that was always connected to the Windrunners. And with Veil not really accepting Adolin as a romantic partner for herself after she was constantly pining for Kaladin in OB? What signals is that supposed to send? After all Veil and Radiant are personality facets of Shallan, so their feelings all somehow stem from her. Does this really scream closure? To me it certainly doesn't.

I'm just left confused, even after all decisions have apparently been made, but maybe that was Brandon's intention. I don't like being mislead though. I can handle misdirections (like Mistborn), but misleading is like breaching trust. I don't know what I can believe anymore. But @Dreamstorm already put that best in a few posts already.

Regarding the vow thing: Well, Shallan's order is the pretty much the one order, that puts truth above oath, sooo from her side it might not be a problem, but yes, oaths are still a central theme of the Stormlight Archive. I don't see any adultery coming either, nor do I want that. A divorce... Maybe? But I don't know if the Vorin church even allows for something like that.

No, what I really think is, that Adolin is going to die. He has no real merit to the overall story anymore, but his death would have a huge emotional impact to our Main Characters. He is connected to everyone of them. There is the Maya revival arc thing, but I don't think, that that has influence on the main narrative. It is a nice and interesting subplot, but the overall story wouldn't suffer if it isn't completely explored. It certainly would also get some a lot of backlash from the fandom, but "good art is always hated".

Edit: Some additional thoughts to Adolin's character after Oathbringer. A lot of that sourced from @DeployParachute

Quote

Well, let us look at the character of Adolin right now.

1. He has no remaining internal conflicts to address or resolve, no (meaningful) flaws to explore or confront. There would have been his temper, but, well, yeah there were no consequences of it.

2. He had no external conflicts with other characters too explore or confront. The Sadeas plot had gone nowhere, he doesn't have to be king, he isn't competing for Shallan's affection anymore.

So much for the personal stuff. Now what does he bring to the main narrative (and other characters)?

1. Adolin has now been painted as the stabilizing force for Shallan's personality issues. He is someone who is heavily depended on by her moving forward. If he were absent, Shallan likely would be forced to do something about her condition sooner.

2. Clearly, Kaladin and Adolin have grown closer as companions. I'm not going to call them best buds yet, but out of all the characters in the narrative outside of bridge four, Adolin is right up there with Dalinar with regards to respect and a sense of dependability that Kaladin has.

3. Everyone in the narrative (other than clearly defined antagonist elements) likes Adolin, and don't have any serious problems with him. He is a very strong and prominent figure in what remains of Alethi society

4. He is the only Kholin to not have any measure of Radiancy

There is the Mayalaran revival plot, but, while it would be interesting to see, let us be honest, it doesn't bring anything to the main narrative. We don't need another Edgedancer PoV, we already have Lift.

He has been seemingly set up to be a ripe tragic plot device just waiting to be picked at the right time by the author. He can be lifted right out, while providing the narrative with several interesting avenues to explore, both from a plot perspective, and a character growth/regression perspective from the rest of the mains.

Thank you for sharing your personal comment. And welcome.

Edited December 12, 2017 by SLNC

[GameOfGroans]

Hi SLNC,

Hm, I never even noticed the thing with sapphire colour. I'm not sure that I want to read so much into it, it feels like dissecting a story with a scalpel.

Killing off Adolin would be such a cliche, much more than any of those Shalladin opponents were complaining about. After all the frustration and disappointment of OB, I'm not convinced I'd even welcome another cycle of confusion. For me, BS already irreparably diluted and dismissed what he was building in Book 2; the magic is broken.

But yeah, the whole wedding part feels so surreal, with even Shallan's brothers suddenly there, sent by no one else but suddenly benevolent Mraize - kind of feels like the next thing we'll be told it was only Shallan's hallucination or something. 

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, GameOfGroans said:

I'm not sure that I want to read so much into it, it feels like dissecting a story with a scalpel.

Killing off Adolin would be such a cliche, much more than any of those Shalladin opponents were complaining about. After all the frustration and disappointment of OB, I'm not convinced I'd even welcome another cycle of confusion. For me, BS already irreparably diluted and dismissed what he was building in Book 2; the magic is broken.

I understand. Personally, I like to keep picking at the wound, but I also understand, when others don't. Whatever is easier for you.

And dissecting a story with a scalpel... Yeah, that is just who I am.