Harbour

[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

2,388 posts in this topic

8 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

It's an interesting take, I agree. My personal is somewhat different: multicolored rocks first appear in one of Kal's flashback in Tien and they remain a symbol of him ever since. In the scene where Kal is looking at the kissing Adolin and Shallan he has a rock and alludes how she reminded him of Tien, which can be found as far back as WoR. The colored rock is there to strengthen the connection between Shallan and Tien. 

You'd... disregard the complete parallel, that those scenes embody? Whew.

I mean it is your decision, but I'm still a bit baffled. I mean, we didn't need the flashback with Tarah to know, that she and Kaladin were lovers, that we knew before. It was the scene, that we finally understand, that Kaladin can't be there for the living, because he dwells on those that have died, which is why he also can't speak his fourth ideal (I assume.)

And why bring the stone into the scene with Tarah, when it, by your perception, only is there to be a metaphor for Shallan reminding Kaladin of Tien?

Edited by SLNC
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2 minutes ago, SLNC said:

You'd... disregard the complete parallel, that those scenes embody? Whew.

I mean it is your decision, but I'm still a bit baffled. I mean, we didn't need the flashback with Tarah to know, that she and Kaladin were lovers, that we knew before. It was the scene, that we finally understand, that Kaladin can't be there for the living, because he dwells on those that have died, which is why he also can't speak his fourth ideal (I assume.)

And why bring the stone into the scene with Tarah, when it, by your perception, only is there to be a metaphor for Shallan reminding Kaladin of Tien?

I think that's not the parallel the scene had. Colored stones are a symbol of Tien. In Tarah's scene we see how difficult it was for Kal to go for someone he wanted in the present because he couldn't let go of the guilt from Tien's death. In the other scene the colored rock was again a symbol of Tien, but this time it served to reinforce in the reader's mind who Kal was thinking of when he said Shallan reminded him of someone without saying it.

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14 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

It's an interesting take, I agree. My personal is somewhat different: multicolored rocks first appear in one of Kal's flashback in Tien and they remain a symbol of him ever since. In the scene where Kal is looking at the kissing Adolin and Shallan he has a rock and alludes how she reminded him of Tien, which can be found as far back as WoR. The colored rock is there to strengthen the connection between Shallan and Tien. 

 

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

And why bring the stone into the scene with Tarah, when it, by your perception, only is there to be a metaphor for Shallan reminding Kaladin of Tien?

The stone symbolizes Tien.  Tien is the reason Kaladin can't leave and follow Tarah (i.e. he needs to protect boys like Tien.)  Shallan reminds Kaladin of Tien (likely because he's a lightweaver, too.)  So one can definitely read Tien as being the symbolism, but that it's tied to different things in each instance.

Btw - I believe and like DP's analysis, but I think it's reasonable that someone can get the Tien symbolism and still not think that it's evidence that Shalladin is alive and well.

ETA: Sorry @Aleksiel should have just let you handle this!

Edited by Dreamstorm
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2 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

 

The stone symbolizes Tien.  Tien is the reason Kaladin can't leave and follow Tarah (i.e. he needs to protect boys like Tien.)  Shallan reminds Kaladin of Tien (likely because he's a lightweaver, too.)  So one can definitely read Tien as being the symbolism, but that it's tied to different things in each instance.

Btw - I believe and like DP's analysis, but I think it's reasonable that someone can get the Tien symbolism and still not think that it's evidence that Shalladin is alive and well.

ETA: Sorry @Aleksiel should have just let you handle this!

No, it's nice to read you understood my take! ^_^

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20 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Btw - I believe and like DP's analysis, but I think it's reasonable that someone can get the Tien symbolism and still not think that it's evidence that Shalladin is alive and well.

Sure you can. And on the surface it does look like that, but I still ask the question. Why the Tarah flashback and why does Tarah specifically tell Kaladin this:

Quote

"Oh, Kal," she whispered, then squeezed his arm.  "Maybe someday you'll learn how to be there for the living, not just for the dead."

after he has looked at the stone.

Let's face it, Kaladin has been looking for excuses to not pursue Shallan through the whole of OB. He didn't need the stone to realize, that Shallan reminded him of Tien, that he already found out in the chasm. He thinks it himself back then. Now? It is just another excuse for him. And an excuse for Syl to finally stop bugging him about it.

I think, that this is one of those famous misdirections. While I do think, that the stone is a symbol of Tien, it, by extension, also is a symbol of why Kaladin can't let go of those that have died.

@Aleksiel For the record, I understood your take too, but I just see... more behind it.

Edited by SLNC
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@SLNC May be I can summarize it as you seeing more in the stone and me seeing more in Tarah :D I don't think she was this foreshadowed and even shown just for that.

15 minutes ago, SLNC said:

He didn't need the stone to realize, that Shallan reminded him of Tien, that he already found out in the chasm.

The stone was for the average reader's sake in my opinion, because the connection between Tien and colored stones is well established and I'd expect more people to remember it as opposed to one or two specific sentences in the chasm scene they read three years ago. It may have been unnecessarily for you, me and may sharders, but majority of readers don't re-read previous books before picking a sequel, so it was a good way to imply Kaladin meant Tien without spelling it.

I'm repeating myself, but I can understand your frustration with the poorly handled resolution. Where we differ is that precisely because it was unsatisfactorily handled you (and others) don't accept it as resolution. Risking to go a bit off-topic, I felt underwhelmed with Sadeas murder in a similar way, I was disappointed we got his PoVs and saw how he and Ialai were plotting only to lead to his defeat before he could execute some crafty sneaky plan, but that was a red herring all along.

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8 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

The stone was for the average reader's sake in my opinion, because the connection between Tien and colored stones is well established and I'd expect more people to remember it as opposed to one or two specific sentences in the chasm scene they read three years ago. It may have been unnecessarily for you, me and may sharders, but majority of readers don't re-read previous books before picking a sequel, so it was a good way to imply Kaladin meant Tien without spelling it.

The reader is unimportant in that situation. Important is what the stone means to Kaladin. The Tarah flashback was there to establish, that for Kaladin the stone is a symbol for those, that have died and that he just can't let go of them. Once again, Kaladin didn't need the stone to come to the realization, that Shallan reminds him of Tien.

And even then, I don't see why the stone has to serve a singular function.

8 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

I'm repeating myself, but I can understand your frustration with the poorly handled resolution. Where we differ is that precisely because it was unsatisfactorily handled you (and others) don't accept it as resolution.

I'm sorry, I was trying to abstain from alleging confirmation bias, but when you do the same to me, I'll have to.

I'm out of this conversation. You don't even seem to want to understand my position.

Edited by SLNC
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3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

The reader is unimportant in that situation. Important is what the stone means to Kaladin. The Tarah flashback was there to establish, that for Kaladin the stone is a symbol for those, that have died and that he just can't let go of them. Once again, Kaladin didn't need the stone to come to the realization, that Shallan reminds him of Tien.

And even then, I don't see why the stone has to serve a singular function.

But this is a book and a great many things are done for the reader's sake, including foreshadowing and symbolism.

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I'm sorry, I was trying to abstain from alleging confirmation bias, but when you do the same to me, I'll have to.

I'm out of this conversation. You don't even seem to want to understand my position.

You went for the worst possible take when I was trying to do the opposite...

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5 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

You went for the worst possible take when I was trying to do the opposite...

Then how should I interpret it? Educate me. You are basically telling me, that my perception is skewed by the fact, that I find the resolution unsatisfactory.

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I agree the stone is clearly tied to Tien, which is wrapped up in Kaladin's failure to protect and the scene with Tarah where it is specifically called out that he lives for the dead. Shallan reminds Kaladin of Tien... but the thing is, Kaladin needs to let Tien go. I suspect his fourth ideal is to accept that he cannot protect everyone (there is the Windrunner quote from a gem in the archive asking something along the lines of 'am I really not supposed to want to protect people?' when considering the fourth ideal), and how can he possibly ever do that if he gets into a relationship with a woman who reminds him of Tien - his first and greatest failure - who also happens to be on the front lines?

As a side note, Kaladin is not my favorite character - but he seems to be for many others. Why do so many people want to subject him to the misery that a relationship with Shallan (who is my favorite character) would certainly entail? 

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6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Then how should I interpret it? Educate me. You are basically telling me, that my perception is skewed by the fact, that I find the resolution unsatisfactory.

@Aleksiel also thinks the resolution was crem, they have just accepted that it actually is the resolution.  You have not (and neither have I.)  But you guys agree on the fundamental point - the love triangle resolution was badly done.

ETA: Btw, there's a lot of other reasons I don't think it's done besides the fact it sucked!  The fact it sucked made me go down a rabbit hole of searching for reasons why it wasn't over, but said rabbit hole exploration turned up things which, IMO, offer firm support that it's not over :)  

26 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Risking to go a bit off-topic, I felt underwhelmed with Sadeas murder in a similar way, I was disappointed we got his PoVs and saw how he and Ialai were plotting only to lead to his defeat before he could execute some crafty sneaky plan, but that was a red herring all along.

Please explain!  I don't think we even have a late-WoR Sadeas viewpoint?  (We go off-topic so much, I figure no one will mind :D)

Edited by Dreamstorm
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10 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

But you guys agree on the fundamental point - the love triangle resolution was badly done.

That doesn't change the fact, that he is implying confirmation bias on our side, because we don't accept the resolution. It is just something, that is extremely unfair in a discussion, where I try to make my point by using the text at hand and that is why I'm reacting in this confrontational way.

But I'm letting it rest now. No sense in continuing this.

Edited by SLNC
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1 minute ago, SLNC said:

That doesn't change the fact, that he is implying confirmation bias on our side, because we don't accept the resolution. It is just something, that is extremely unfair in a discussion, where I try to make my point by using the text at hand and that is why I'm reacting in this confrontational way.

Well... that is a bit what is going on.  I think this is one thing where there is a way for the symbolism to hang together without it being pro-Shalladin.  So I think someone who wants to read it as thus is able to rationally do so.  I think there is also a (frankly beautiful) way to interpret it as pro-Shalladin.  And of course you emotionally want it to be the latter, so it's easier for you to see.  I think there are a lot of Shalladin literary aspects which could be dismissed by a reader without those aspects being bad writing.  This is one of them.  I think there are some Shalladin literary aspects which cannot be dismissed without it being incredibly sloppy craftsmanship by the author, which is why I so firmly got on board the SS Shalladin.

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6 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Then how should I interpret it? Educate me. You are basically telling me, that my perception is skewed by the fact, that I find the resolution unsatisfactory.

I said the execution was unsatisfactory. What I meant was while I agree the way it was handled leaves something to be desired in my perception it doesn't mean there would be farther development, but I can see how others would view it as hinting we haven't seen the end of it. 

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

That doesn't change the fact, that he is implying confirmation bias on our side, because we don't accept the resolution. It is just something, that is extremely unfair in a discussion, where I try to make my point by using the text at hand and that is why I'm reacting in this confrontational way.

That's what you read into it, but that's not what I said. No need to jump to conclusions and get hostile :unsure: Don't read the worst implications into my posts, I suck at implying things in English anyway.

1 minute ago, Dreamstorm said:

@Aleksiel also thinks the resolution was crem, they have just accepted that it actually is the resolution.  You have not (and neither have I.)  But you guys agree on the fundamental point - the love triangle resolution was badly done.

Basically yes, thank you.

1 minute ago, Dreamstorm said:

Please explain!  I don't think we even have a late-WoR Sadeas viewpoint?  (We go off-topic so much, I figure no one will mind :D)

We had late enough for me to expect there would be more, but it turned out I was wrong. But you are right to point this out, I expected more PoVs later and should have taken the hint if there wasn't it meant it wasn't going in the direction I first thought it would.

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Great... now I'm the evil hostile person again.

deep breath

It is fine. I just felt my points were ignored, because there was no counter, which is something I hate. What I also hate is when things are being put in a way, that I don't accept your opinion because of our differing opinions on the whole acceptance thing, which is why I reacted like that. I always accepted it and I can't do more than state it again and again.

Edited by SLNC
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44 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I'm out of this conversation. You don't even seem to want to understand my position.

Your opinion is well noted and you don't need to respond to everything. People have different opinions and if you're going to be like this, you should just not be in this thread.

The quote I have here is definitely hostile. Chill out. Anything remotely close to this and you are not going to be in this thread anymore. You are escalating things for no reason, and you are not going to continue doing that. 

You even admit to being confrontational. You will stop now. If you think a post of yours is being confrontational, stop! It really doesn't matter what the context is. You just need to not react that way. 

8 minutes ago, SLNC said:

It is fine. I just felt my points were ignored, because there was no counter, which is something I hate. What I also hate is when things are being put in a way, that I don't accept your opinion because of our differing opinions on the whole acceptance thing, which is why I reacted like that. I always accepted it and I can't do more than state it again and again.

Tons of people have opinions where other people's opinions were different. Someone disagreed with your interpretation and you feel strongly about that. Cool. It's coming across aggressively and you are acting petulantly when someone just says, "Yeah, I don't really see it that way." You won't be able to change their minds and being aggressive and pissy about it is not going to help. 

You can just not respond to a thing. Crazy, I know. You do not need to have the last word. 

This is the last time I want to see any remotely hostile, aggressive, or other such posts in this thread from you SLNC. This is a problem and it will not continue, in this thread or otherwise. 

It's funny how most conflict in this thread seems to involve you. I don't think that's a coincidence. 

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13 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Great... now I'm the evil hostile person again.

deep breath

It is fine. I just felt my points were ignored, because there was no counter, which is something I hate. What I also hate is when things are being put in a way, that I don't accept your opinion because of our differing opinions on the whole acceptance thing, which is why I reacted like that. I always accepted it and I can't do more than state it again and again.

You're not an evil hostile person, you are just emotionally involved in the books, which we all are since we spend hours and hours reading and rereading and analyzing them :ph34r:  I agree that having one's perspective dismissed as "just a disgruntled shipper" is irritating and something you do see around here.  I'm pretty sure @Aleksiel wasn't doing that, but I certainly understand the gut reaction when you see something so clearly and it feels like its being summarily dismissed just because it supports what is seen as a "lesser" argument.

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8 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I find it highly dishonorable that just because I made another post on attempting to discuss Adolin's morality (BTW I hardly got any logical feedback in there, but was thoroughly bashed for even entertaining the possibility of interpreting Adolin as immoral) is being used as a counter argument for the whole Shalladin approach. That was my personal post on the matter and it does not correlate with the rest of the people arguing on this thread. On the contrary, I think most people think Adolin as the perfect good guy on either side of the spectrum.

Regarding the other post, the whole experience was extremely disturbing to me and I've been feeling very apprehensive in posting anything since that thread was closed down. I may appear as a logical person but that doesn't mean that I didn't feel harassed and bullied and quite frankly very unwelcome in the forums (especially by a moderator's PM the next day, after the whole thing was done and closed). Yes, I was emotionally charged when I used 'ph' on that specific post, but other than that, I certainly wasn't trolling when I made the original post and I was completely sincere in creating a logical and respectful discussion.

A moderator has PMed you and you ought to respond to that, rather than just leaving the PM thread.

You actively escalated the discourse in that thread, whereas others were pretty low key about it. I encourage you to take a look at your posts and have some self-reflection. You have not been bullied. People disagreed with your assessment and you got very heated about it. People don't need to be welcoming to that. Sorry. 

Bring up your concerns to the mod team. But it seems you just want to be upset. 

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7 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I agree that having one's perspective dismissed as "just a disgruntled shipper" is irritating and something you do see around here.  I'm pretty sure @Aleksiel wasn't doing that, but I certainly understand the gut reaction when you see something so clearly and it feels like its being summarily dismissed just because it supports what is seen as a "lesser" argument.

I in no way intended something like this. When I said I understood why others might disagree I wasn't attacking Shalladin shippers in any way or implying I see this view as lesser.

 

I sincerely apologize my post caused so much trouble.

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I'm just going to throw a quick response in here this time, not a line-by-line. I feel at this point I've pretty much talked out my position and I'll just end up repeating myself if I try to keep engaging. A girl can only have so many thoughts on one subject before it runs dry.

That said, I'll fess up that I misremembered the Skybreakers WoB and misquoted it. I should have looked up the actual thing but I thought I remembered it well enough off the top of my head. Silly Feather should know that she doesn't know WoBs as well as canon quotes. Embarrassing. Still, Skybreakers aside, I think the Sadeas situation was one where justice was failed by the system and required an outside correction, and Nale can bite me if he disagrees.

And the last point is about cliches. Yes, I dislike the Shalladin setup because it reads as very cliched to me, but this isn't just because I have a vendetta against the very concept of cliches and anything that remotely resembles a different story is bad. Rather, I dislike when plots feel contrived or formulaic and especially when they don't bring anything interesting. WoR didn't bring anything interesting to me to that plotline and it brought a whole lot of familiar and recycled points. The chasm scene in particular felt particularly egregious as a setup for sexual tension and bonding. Of course those two would be the two who fall into the chasm of course they would need to cuddle to stay warm and Kaladin gets all "aware of her in more ways of one." The follow up of them distractedly thinking of each other felt like it was just stacking up stock forbidden crush reactions all on top of each other.

I mean, it's been a while since I listened to the WoR Splintercast but I'm pretty sure my thought process along the plotline was "huh, Shallan and Kaladin? Did anyone really picture those two getting together?" moving into "uh this bickering and 'oh she's/he's the worst' is definitely turning UST-y" to "oh no... really... they're stranded alone together... I've read this fanfic before..." to "yep, there it is, all that dark heartfelt bonding because of course we gotta have all the cuddling and bonding" to "wow, okay now we're daydreaming about each other and doing this? uuuuuuugh please let this plotline stop happening to me."

I mean, we started off with mild confusion and it was only after it just. kept. going. with no interesting end in sight that I transitioned into annoyance and then true dislike towards the end. It was only later while I was thinking about why the storyline bothered me so much that I started realizing how much I felt they weren't good for each other and questioning that if that were the case and they had all these deepset issues, why Brandon would have chosen to shove them into the love interest lock step like he did. And so very strongly. So deeply unsubtle. Like getting whacked over the head with THIS IS SHALLAN AND KALADIN AND THEY ARE DOING A LOVE INTEREST ROMANCE PLOT NOW, THANK YOU.

Meanwhile I'm sitting through all of these scenes like.

Do Adolin and Shallan feel cliche to me? Not really. She gets excited about meeting him, they both get a little flustered when they meet for the first time, they go on a date and have a silly conversation, and then they kiss at the end because Shallan's been wanting to kiss him for a while. That WoR plotline doesn't read "cliche" to me. It just reads like two people who start dating and like each other. Adolin might be a prince, but his and Shallan's romance definitely isn't fairytale. If anything you could say it's a little too quiet and normal, whereas most romance plots have those big dramatic moments. But in real life, a lot of romances don't have the big dramatic moments. They're just two people who realize they really like each other. 

Perhaps that's the real contrast here. Kaladin and Shallan get the big romance plots. They fight the chasmfiend together, they huddle for warmth, they bare their souls to each other and have this intense bonding experience. I totally understand why people ship Shallan/Kaladin, 100%. If those scenes felt legitimate and that connection felt real and true to you, then sure of course you'd ship it. They were the ones who got the set up. Shallan and Adolin is just kind of Nice™. It's the cute date, the handsome prince who's a bit goofy rather than the wild and passionate longing for dark broody darkeyes she's not supposed to have. 

And in the end I think that's probably the point that Sanderson was trying to make, the twist he was hoping to execute. That sometimes the nice guy that you go on a few good dates with can be The One and sometimes the one that you go down the start of the wild and passionate forbidden love turns out to not be the right pick after all. The subversion makes the cliches work because when you get to the end, Brandon says, "In any other story, she would have picked the forbidden passionate one instead of the one she was 'supposed' to be with, but in this story, I'm going to show you why the opposite is going to happen and she ends up with Adolin instead."

And in the end, I like that little twist a lot.

I'm at the point where I'm not really trying to convince anybody. If you guys really think that there's gonna be way more on the love triangle in the books to come, well, the only thing to do is wait for another book and see what happens. I think it's pretty clearly resolved. But I've been wrong before, so maybe you guys will win out in the end.

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6 minutes ago, Ookla the Feathered said:

I think the Sadeas situation was one where justice was failed by the system and required an outside correction, and Nale can bite me if he disagrees.

See, here's the thing. I don't disagree with that at all. I think that's quite an astute assessment. Where the disagreement comes in for me, is the suggestion that a justice correction is what Adolin did. He didn't even think about justice. He thought about how much he hated Sadeas, snapped and enjoyed inflicting pain on him. Now I'm not saying that makes Adolin a bad person on balance, or a sadist, or a sociopath. I am however saying what he did, considering the motivation for his action was an immoral act, and he should regret the circumstances of that act, if not the outcome of it.

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@Ookla the Feathered I don't really care about winning or being right in this case, as I said before, I like the current state of matters as well in terms of the romance subplot. I agree with all of the reasons you state in favour of Shadolin, sometimes it's just nice to have a normal relationship. Call it the little plotter inside of me though, but I really do like the Kaladin / Shallan relationship, and it didn't fell at all clichéd or forced to me when I read it - and I do want that foreshadowing to have a better payoff in the future books. At the very least, a conversation between a non-depressed Kaladin and a reintegrated Shallan, where it is made clear that they won't end up together - if Brandon intends for Shallan and Adolin to end up together. 

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10 minutes ago, aemetha said:

See, here's the thing. I don't disagree with that at all. I think that's quite an astute assessment. Where the disagreement comes in for me, is the suggestion that a justice correction is what Adolin did. He didn't even think about justice. He thought about how much he hated Sadeas, snapped and enjoyed inflicting pain on him. Now I'm not saying that makes Adolin a bad person on balance, or a sadist, or a sociopath. I am however saying what he did, considering the motivation for his action was an immoral act, and he should regret the circumstances of that act, if not the outcome of it.

Yeah, I was speaking less to Adolin's motivations and more to the function of it. Adolin lashed out because he felt backed into a corner and saw no other way out. Sadeas was literally gloating about how nothing could stop him and Adolin knew that they'd lose any chance to bring him down with all the chaos of the Everstorm and the move to Urithiru. If there had been a legal way to bring Sadeas to justice, I think Adolin probably wouldn't have ended up feeling backed up into that corner the way he did. So, roundabout the failure of justice is what caused Sadeas' death, even though it wasn't Adolin's direct motivations at the time. And even though fulfilling justice wasn't Adolin's motivation, the killing served that purpose regardless, intent or no.

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@Aleksiel And I apologize for what seems to be a big misunderstanding.

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31 minutes ago, Ookla the Feathered said:

And in the end I think that's probably the point that Sanderson was trying to make, the twist he was hoping to execute. That sometimes the nice guy that you go on a few good dates with can be The One and sometimes the one that you go down the start of the wild and passionate forbidden love turns out to not be the right pick after all. The subversion makes the cliches work because when you get to the end, Brandon says, "In any other story, she would have picked the forbidden passionate one instead of the one she was 'supposed' to be with, but in this story, I'm going to show you why the opposite is going to happen and she ends up with Adolin instead."

And in the end, I like that little twist a lot.

I like this twist a lot too!  But, if this was the twist, it should have been executed in a better manner.  I think if we had the same exact same overt storyline (nice boy vs. bad boy to put it much too simply), but had all of those little literary elements pointing towards Adolin, I would 100% be behind it.  I don't like not being able to trust in an author's foreshadowing/symbolism/metaphors (whatever you want to call it - I feel like I can't ever figure out how to state that), which is where I will be left if Adolin is the end game.  But perhaps part of Brandon's subversion is that he doesn't want me to trust him on those aspects :D

As an aside, I find it ironic that with most Shadolin shippers, it's hard to convince them there even is a romantic setup for Shallan and Kaladin, whereas you go a 180 and say the romantic setup is so obvious it must be a fakeout.  I like it. 

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