[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

December 8, 2017

Damnation.

Good job. I absolutely haven't made the connection, but it makes sense.

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You know, sometimes I wonder just how people who were happy with the romantic ending at the end of OB could NOT see this stuff. Then I think, perhaps, Brandon is happy with this state of affairs, as it means he is doing something right, hiding it so well, that a large chunk of the readership are going to be primed and ready for his next big surprise for them.

That is a thought, that I also had.

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I don't believe for a second that Kaladin could have some of the most pronounced and detailed feelings that we've seen from his POV yet here, and then turn around and wave those away as simply "I felt ...something. A lightening of my burdens". During the scene on the roof when Shadolin are making their passion for each other known, Kaladin is still trying to work out his feelings for her, and he decides, yet again, that they are less than what they are. Not only because she is already "taken". Not only because of his respect for her betrothed. But because it allows him to continue to hide, to remain static, to do what he has always done.

Yes, I've been surprised at this, too. He had feelings for other women, but those feelings still don't compare to what he feels when he is with Shallan. There is some strange discrepancy between what he says and thinks.

This could also tie in with how Kaladin often compares Shallan to Tien.

For Kaladin, Tien was special. A one of a kind person, that could evoke some strong, special feelings inside of him. I think, that Kaladin thinks, that there can't be another living person, who is capable of doing this to him, eventhough he already met that person. Shallan. He just doesn't realize or trust it yet, so he plays it down. And keeps on feeling for the dead, which I absolutely agree with, seems to be what keeps him from speaking the Fourth Ideal.

Now what could Kaladin give Shallan? I think, that there is one theme in their interactions. He inspires her to be herself and doesn't distinguish between her personalities - because he already knows Shallan as a whole. This is something, that Shallan is not ready for, so she flees to Adolin. Her fracturing is what keeps her from accepting the Fourth Ideal she spoke. But what he also can give: He is non-judgemental. He didn't even think of judging her for what she did in killing her father, which is the crux of Shallan's problem. She is afraid to tell someone, that she killed her mother, because she is afraid to be seen as a monster. I don't think Kaladin would see her that way. I do think, that she needs someone to tell her, that she isn't. I think, that would make it much easier for her to finally acknowledge, that she killed her mother. But, frankly, Adolin isn't that judgemental either.

But just speculation.

Edited December 8, 2017 by SLNC

insert_anagram_here · December 8, 2017

6 hours ago, maxal said:

it turned out being Shalash who filled the last open spot

Are you referring to the focus characters for the 6-10 books? Can we have the reference of proof to this? This is very important.

6 hours ago, maxal said:

no moral conscience: not feeling guilty over one murder is not enough

I disagree. Not having guilt over at least one murder is actually proof that a person does not have a personal conscience. Even if you justify it somehow the guilt doesn't just 'go away', you just learn to live with the guilt for the rest of your life. I'm preparing a post on Sadeas' murder, which I'm looking for the right thread to place right now. We can go through all the bits together if you'd like.

6 hours ago, maxal said:

My personal wish would be for the narrative to focus more on Adolin than on Dalinar (which is why I loved WoR so much) because I find the son more interesting than the father. So while it is realistic to expect Adolin's vision of his father to shatter upon hearing the truth, we are again putting much faith into a relationship issue which is unlikely to matter nor to be important.

Oh I love Dalinar, but yes I'd die (pun intended) to see more of Adolin's POV. He is intriguing exactly because his inner thoughts and reasoning, are the only way we can tell if his actions (both good and bad) are done (a) consciously -in full control or not- and (b) with conscience -with or without a personal moral sense-.

I'm not sure if I missed it somewhere, but does he show remorse or guilt regarding harm done to another person anywhere? Does he hate his Shardblade? Does he hate killing people in war or in duel?

I think that he isn't a moral person by himself. He doesn't have the sense of what feels is right in his gut. He is only following society's rules and his father's code.

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He renounces the king’s authority, Adolin thought. Storms, this was bad. He gritted his teeth, and found himself reaching his hand to the side to summon his Blade. No. He pulled the hand back. He’d find a way to force this man into the dueling ring. Killing Sadeas now—no matter how much he deserved it—would undermine the very laws and codes Adolin’s father was working so hard to uphold.
But storms . . . Adolin was tempted.
Sadeas smiled again. “Do you think me an evil man, Adolin?”
“That’s too simple a term,” Adolin snapped. “You’re not just evil, you’re a selfish, crem-crusted eel who is trying to strangle this kingdom with his bulbous, bastard hand.”
“Eloquent,” Sadeas said.

Words of Radiance - Chapter 50 - page 582

That's a bit that shows that the only thing withholding him from killing Sadeas is Dalinar's laws and codes.

6 hours ago, maxal said:

BUT if it doesn't fit within the bigger narrative, if it serves no purpose (and so far Adolin's inner issues haven't served any purpose), then it is unlikely to go much further down the: "Oh bags" kind of reaction.

Wouldn't you say that finding out that his father was even more evil in the past than he thought would make him sink even lower on a moral scale and potentially make him open to Hatred? ( He recognizes himself as 'a worse man than his father is' during Sadeas' murder)

Wouldn't you say that if he turned out to be the "Champion with Nine shadows" that would serve as part of the bigger narrative?

@DeployParachuteGood job of finding that bit with Tarah! The colorful stone symbolizes not only his guilt for the dead that he let die, but possibly, his guilt for the important ones he never loved.

Edited December 8, 2017 by insert_anagram_here
typos

FuzzyWordsmith · December 8, 2017

So, a lot of Shadolin vs Shalladin. I'll just leave this little tidbit *cough*Kadolin*cough* here.

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“Maybe you should let me teach you how to use a side sword. You’re pretending to be head of our bodyguards tonight, and you’re lighteyed today. It looks strange for you to walk around without a side sword.” “Maybe I’m one of those punchy guys.” Adolin stopped in place and grinned at Kaladin. “Did you just say ‘punchy guys’?” “You know, ardents who train to fight unarmed.” “Hand to hand?” “Hand to hand.” “Right,” Adolin said. “Or ‘punchy guys,’ as everyone calls them.” Kaladin met his eyes, then found himself grinning back. “It’s the academic term.” “Sure. Like swordy fellows. Or spearish chaps.” “I once knew a real axalacious bloke,” Kaladin said. “He was great at psychological fights.” “Psychological fights?” “He could really get inside someone’s head.

PhineasGage · December 8, 2017

Hello all given the positive feedback on the long posts and the absence of negative feedback I'm going to continue in the same pattern as before until I get told to stop

18 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

What is sticking out in my mind is Kaladin and Adolin's spar in Ch. 18 Bruises where Adolin (wearing shardplate) slams Kaladin (without shardplate) so brutally that Zahel really gets into Adolin about his behavior. That's not the perfect, humble prince who is kind to everyone...

I had totally forgotten about this. I know Kaladin was being a bit of an arse in this moment but there is no way he would have done the same had the positions been reversed. Indeed he even balks at the idea of killing and hurting his enemies - he finds Adolin annoying at this point, but he knows he can't actually hurt Adolin through the plate. He also loses his stormlight as soon as his motive are less than pure anyway, so we know exactly what his motivations are when he fights.

18 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Adolin's actually not that humble, especially about his dueling. He is decidedly arrogant in Ch. 22 Lights in the Storm ("When I beat them." after Kaladin uses "if"). Again, this is Kaladin's perception (they aren't friendly at the time), but I think it's safe to say Adolin is arrogant, not humble, about his dueling skill. (That arrogance seems warranted, but it's still there.)

That is why i went with self-assured. It would have to be false humilty if he said he wasn't that good for example. I don't know how much he actually boasts about it? We see one of the people he challenges say he has been boasting but that could be part of the confrontation rather than an accurate representation. (this is when he ends up challenging Elit but it was said by his cousin whose name I can't remember). Of course that could be something true but we can't be sure one way or the other.

18 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Not to go down this path again, but there wasn't a whole Shallan for Adolin to even recognize... I think this is pretty well supported by the WoB on that fact the Shallan is one person in the spiritual realm, and as such any persona who is shutting out Veil and Radiant isn't the whole Shallan. So, yes, Adolin recognizes "Shallan", but this statement loses its power if Adolin just recognizes when one part of Shallan is dominating.

True. We also don't know how much his hand squeeze was pure luck - tho the WoB suggests that it wasn't, it is just that he only sees one alt as being Shallan, rather than a fragment of the whole.

18 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

I would even argue that their most intimate conversation - where Shallan admits to her fractured personas and Adolin tells her he killed Sadeas - shows tone deafness as well, despite the fact that he seems to come to the correct conclusion (they are both lying to the world.) He turned a topic which was very personal and distressing to Shallan into a conversation about himself. Is that really listening?

So this is where we are at risk of projecting again - we don't know what he was thinking during this ionconversation - there is only one way to be sure whether he is listening or not, and that is to see into his head. Wthout that, we can only guess. Those who like Adolin will assume the best, those that don't will assume the worst. His actions are not so clear cut as to definitely be the result of a specific motivation.

18 hours ago, Rainier said:

So to try again, Adolin is Law/Order: the sculpture, the fashion, the wines, the everything pomp and circumstance and High Society. Kaladin is Chaos/Nature: the rock formation, the sullen intensity, the lack of patience for propriety and social strata, the constant allusion to winds and storms and natural phenomena that cannot be walled in or restrained.

I definitely see this as being a good descriptor in terms of their personas, but as they evolve I think it is fair to allow their alignments to evolve with it. Given that Sadeas' murder is definitely not lawful (both in the sense of against the law, but also against the strict codes that Adolin is supposed to be following) he is definitely slipping.

18 hours ago, Calyx said:

Kaladin would be insufferable in this role, always trying to fix things

I'm not sure I agree with this. He doesn't try to "fix" Shallan in the chasms despite everything she tells him. He fixes physical woulds sure but when he cannot fix those he finds ways to make sure people don't fall off the face of the Earth - eg Hobber and Dabbid are still Bridge 4 despite their injuries. He isn't pushing for Dabbid's recovery at all, he just lets him be.

17 hours ago, Vissy said:

Could it be that Shallan is feeling horrible for betraying Adolin's love and expectations somehow, or feeling horrible for merely thinking that that was what she was doing when she swooned over Kaladin, and that is causing her to overcompensate in the other direction - to the point where she actively has to suppress the parts of herself?

She might feel this way, though I doubt it because she genuinely thinks she is 3 separate people. She doesn't recognise the feelings for Kaladin as being "hers" - they are "Veil's", so why should Shallan feel guilty? It isn't her fault that someone else fancies someone after all. I also don't think the fracturing is the result of romantic feelings at all - it is her past catching up with her. I therefore dont believe that the romance element to her story will be important for her eventual healing.

16 hours ago, Lightblessed said:

So overall, I am very much disappointed with the conclusion (the choice and the way it was handled) and I do believe Sanderson put and end to the ‘romantic’ part of it as he himself stated that he was satisfied by the way of handling the situation on the beta readers AM(A)A on reddit.

Stay a while - we'll bring you round Oh, also - Welcome aboard. I'm the Ship's cat - if you happen to have any food or water on you I'd keep it quiet or there might be a riot.

12 hours ago, Awesomness said:

Exatcly this is the main reason why I don´t think he will become an ED. Glad you mentioned it because I was begining to think I was alone in this matter.

I can see that there is some good evidence for the theory, so I'm not actually against it myself. I'd be more inclined to wonder if he is possibly going down the route of corrupted ED or possibly the voidbringer ED version (like the ED fused). Not sure how it works so not sure if that is even possible. That said, we don't see him worry about his mother's chain once he lost it (tho as i pointed out, we don't get much PoV from Adolin anyway) and we actively see him not act to better the lives of the people of Kholinar in OB despite opportunity. I don't think he makes people's lives worse either - more that he just doesn't think at all about it.

11 hours ago, Diomedes said:

As is stands now all Shallan personas have feelings for Kaladin. Princess Shallan does not want to admit it and blames this on Veil, but her stares reveal her ambigious feelings. Veil is completly on team Shalladin. Radiant is pretty emotionless, but she also favors Kaladin. True Shallan... well she certainly has feelings for Adolin and Kaladin.

Only two Shallan personas have developed feelings for Adolin. Princess Shallan is infatuated with him and true Shallan, well I do not know actually how far true Shallan`s love for him goes. Did she ever confess to Adolin that she killed her father? As long as she does not do that we will never know if true Shallan has had any contact with Adolin.

So I personally see it a little differently, but the evidence is sketchy in either direction. I think "Shallan" has feelings for Adolin, "Veil" has feelings for Kaladin and "Radiant" has feelings for neither - she is the pragmatic unromantic one - she likely doesn't have the ability to love (she is a very 2D alter) at all. The "True Shallan" is separating her conflicting feelings by putting them in different personas. It is likely that she cannot therefore tell whether her feelings for one man or the other is greater. I don't see her emotions as "love" for either, she is infatuated in different ways. I personally think that her infatuation with kaladin is more a result of recognising his ability to challenge her mentally/verbally so it has better long term prospects that just wanting to rip off his shirt. That is me projecting a bit though as I personally look for intellectualism in a partner.

9 hours ago, maxal said:

Hence, while I do agree with you Adolin, by all means, should have a very negative reaction towards finding out the extend of his father's involvement within his mother's death, I would not bet a great deal lot of eggs Brandon will go there. Moreover, I do think knowing his mother died burned alive as opposed to just "murdered", knowing she suffered, knowing it wasn't quick, but instead horrible, should be a shock, a terrible shock. BUT if it doesn't fit within the bigger narrative, if it serves no purpose (and so far Adolin's inner issues haven't served any purpose), then it is unlikely to go much further down the: "Oh bags" kind of reaction.

I agree that this narrative may not ever come forward, but I suspect if that is the case it will be because Dalinar chooses not to tell Renarin and Adolin. Renarin may find out on his own, depending on how much "truth" he can see. I am a firm beleiver that the Sadeas murder will be dealt with before the end of book 5. Dalinar and Shallan have only just found out. It is possible that Ialai will place spies in Urithiru - she has a history of having extensive spy networks so I wouldn't be surprised if the secret is eventually found out and there is some kind of ramification. On top of that, why make Adolin kill Sadeas? It acheieves nothing for OB - that means the payoff is just later. It is coming,

10 hours ago, maxal said:

To be a sociopath Adolin would need to have absolutely no moral conscience: not feeling guilty over one murder is not enough. Adolin felt justified to kill Sadeas because Sadeas was trying to harm Dalinar. He needs no additional justification.

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. I believe @aemetha is a trained psychologist and is using the term sociopath in the professional sense, rather than the sense we hear it in lay culture. This is important. An action can be sociopathic without the whole person being a sociopath. All that means is that the behaviour is sufficiently outside "normal" behaviour to be considered unhealthy both to the person in question and to society as a whole. A lack of remorse is considered a sociopathic behaviour, but a lack of remorse on its own is not enough to make someone a sociopath.

The example I'll use is the Antisocial Personality Disorder (DSM-5). Adolin does not have this. But one of its hallmarks is a lack of remorse and guilt. These people tend to act violently and don't learn from their actions - even if those actions result in legal problems (eg prison). These are the people sometimes termed "psychopaths" though psychiatists don't like the term because "psychopathy" just means disease of the mind - in the most general sense (eg depression is a form of psychopathy - but depressed people are not all "psychopaths"). My point is that you can call his behaviour problematic because it is closely associated with a specific disorder, without labelling him with that disorder.

I also quickly want to point out that even with justification, most people would feel guilt in this setting and that is what makes Adolin's lack of guilt appear sociopathic. Indeed generally people feel guilty even when they shouldn't. They justify their actions after the event and use that to erode their guilt away, but Adolin doesn't seem to start from there - at most he is ashamed because he doesn't want to be caught letting his father down.

10 hours ago, maxal said:

First off, you never have to apologize for writing lost posts: as one writer of long posts my take has always been, if others don't want to read it, they'll skip it and won't quote it. There are however chances many are enjoying the posts and reading them.

I'm taking this to heart - thank you I must admit I enjoy other people's long posts myself so I am glad that you think this!

10 hours ago, maxal said:

Adolin is exactly what he appears to be: yes he genuinely saved the prostitute, yes he genuinely cares about the people he meets. Yes, he has had failure, minor ones, but he isn't a guy who gets bogged on them, he moves on. Always. No matter what it is. The mask he wears is not authenticity, it is the blind faith he has towards his father if mask this can be called. He wants to please other people, this is true, but it doesn't dither him from his tasks.

So I would say even this is projection. We don't know Adolin's motivations for most of his behaviours. Kaladin gives an alternative option for Adolin's motives himself - that it is part of the games between Sadeas and Kholin princedoms. It might be that - we don't know. Adolin seems decent I grant you and his PoV'sdont give us any reason to think he is "evil" (i don't think he is) but I do think he is generally guided more by how he wants to be perceived than by his conscience. I think this might be one reason that the fashionista element to his character is being pushed so much.

10 hours ago, maxal said:

nor does he have much in common with Snape

I wasn't suggesting that he is anything like Snape as a person - Snape was a nasty piece of work. But I do think that there is an opacity to their actions that gives them something in common.

9 hours ago, maxal said:

this murder was one he felt he needed to do, not for pleasure, not for fun, but to keep the people he loves alive.

I disagree - he loses his temper - he isn't considering anything but vengeance when he kills the man

8 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

He gets to keep carrying his rock

Mind. Blown. Thank you for this - its an incredible piece of analysis and ties in so well with all aspects of Kaladin's arc. Do we think that Rock may also be of importance here as a result? I mean, he too was named for a pretty rock and I personally think he is going to be a LW.

8 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Shallan and Kaladin are both making choices, or not making choices, that leave them in a static state, unable to progress further on their own respective paths of Radiancy. And these choices are both wrapped up in denying the feelings they have for each other. If that isn't an indication that they are not done, then I don't know what is.

This whole post was fantastic. Alas I have only one upvote to lay down for my 'Ship.

4 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I disagree. Not having guilt over at least one murder is actually proof that a person does not have a personal conscience. Even if you justify it somehow the guilt doesn't just 'go away', you just learn to live with the guilt for the rest of your life. I'm preparing a post on Sadeas' murder, which I'm looking for the right thread to place right now. We can go through all the bits together if you'd like.

I would love to see this - if you haven't posted it yet in a thread can you make a new one? I think it could be really interesting.

4 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I'm not sure if I missed it somewhere, but does he show remorse or guilt regarding harm done to another person anywhere?

Difficult to know. I can't find one - but then we get so little directly from Adolin. He declares he didn't feel guilty about confronting Dalinar about his madness - tho he says he "felt sick" about having to do so. He apologises for how he confronted Dalinar later, but not for doing it.

1 hour ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

“Hand to hand?”

Personally I have always preferred the term "punchy guys".....

This, unfortunately is a repeat of Shallan's joke about the hangman and the headsman (it's easier to get a head). I need BS to get some more jokes, and soon.

analyticaposteriori · December 8, 2017

On 6. 12. 2017 at 10:45 AM, SLNC said:

Another great example of how the other angle was completely ignored. Thanks.

Look, it is not the point which scenes we choose, but rather the general lack of scenes between them.

Coming back to this - those are some really strange choices made by BS. The book is 1300 pages long, your two main characters spend 4 of 5 Parts mostly in the same place and yet you barely give them any scenes (and i'm not talking only about romantic ones, but all kinds) and when you can give them some (flying to the peaks for a better view of the tower, flight to Thaylen) you weirdly omit them. Once again all of this keeps happening on the back of the fantastic WoR chasm sequence.

It's worth noting that both of these most noticeably omitted scenes happen in the section of the book where Kal has no POV (tower drawing in the Second Part and they come back from Thaylen in the first scene of the Third Part so the whole thing plays out sometime during the ending of Second Part/Interlude) which could indicate Shallan may be suppresing something about them and that's why don't get see her POV. Then again if anything interesting happened Kaladin would probably reminisce about it.

December 8, 2017

3 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said:

Coming back to this - those are some really strange choices made by BS. The book is 1300 pages long, your two main characters spend 4 of 5 Parts mostly in the same place and yet you barely give them any scenes (and i'm not talking only about romantic ones, but all kinds) and when you can give them some (flying to the peaks for a better view of the tower, flight to Thaylen) you weirdly omit them. Once again all of this keeps happening on the back of the fantastic WoR chasm sequence.

Also because he say in a WoB, that he needed to do Kal's and Shallan's backstories first, because they would spend lots of time interacting and now he has both backstories done and now... nothing much? Its a bit weird.

Edited December 8, 2017 by SLNC

Dreamstorm · December 8, 2017

8 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

You know, sometimes I wonder just how people who were happy with the romantic ending at the end of OB could NOT see this stuff. Then I think, perhaps, Brandon is happy with this state of affairs, as it means he is doing something right, hiding it so well, that a large chunk of the readership are going to be primed and ready for his next big surprise for them.

...then again, it could also be I who is the dupe...

Repeating what so many have said, this was awesome. I feel like every day there are more pieces of symbolism which tie these two together. If you're the dupe, well, he tossed away so much...

8 hours ago, SLNC said:

Now what could Kaladin give Shallan? I think, that there is one theme in their interactions. He inspires her to be herself and doesn't distinguish between her personalities - because he already knows Shallan as a whole. This is something, that Shallan is not ready for, so she flees to Adolin.

Building on this, I really like this bit from OB where Adolin is observing Shallan's changing upon seeing Kaladin do his windspren thing (bold mine):

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Just ahead of him, Shallan seemed to change. It was in her bearing, the way she stopped resting lightly on one foot, and stood solidly on two feet instead.

With standing up being one of the main (if not the main) symbolism tied to Shallan's healing in OB, I like how changing from "Shallan" to Veil causes her stand solidly. Such great imagery, and I think ties into your point about Kaladin inspiring her to heal herself. (Note also that this is immediately after the Adolin/Sadeas discussion where she is sitting down with him and then she stands up to go watch Kaladin, so another point where we see the sitting/standing motif pulled through.)

1 hour ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

So, a lot of Shadolin vs Shalladin. I'll just leave this little tidbit *cough*Kadolin*cough* here.

I shipped Kadolin so hard after WoR. Like searching down fanfic hard. I found out pretty much right away that there was no way Brandon would go there (he said no gay viewpoint characters), but I couldn't give it up emotionally. They have such a classic enemies to lovers romantic arc in WoR!! Also before my hopes were dashed, I was thinking that Adolin's inability to get into a relationship was related to a subconscious desire to not be intimate with a woman, which I could also see in the way he never initiates intimate contact with Shallan in WoR. I don't sense the same spark between Kaladin and Adolin in OB, sadly, though there are a couple moments like the one you point out.

40 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

So this is where we are at risk of projecting again - we don't know what he was thinking during this ionconversation - there is only one way to be sure whether he is listening or not, and that is to see into his head. Wthout that, we can only guess. Those who like Adolin will assume the best, those that don't will assume the worst. His actions are not so clear cut as to definitely be the result of a specific motivation.

I was going more for how I would feel as Shallan, because I find it selfish for Adolin to turn the conversation to himself and his problems when it started as a conversation about Shallan and her problems. But, this could also be read as him finding a way to relate to how she feels, so it's a matter of personal preference. I don't find Adolin very good with emotional support (Dalinar in WoK for example), so I'm definitely reading that into him. As you said, it's impossible to actually know his feelings because we rarely see them, and when we do, they aren't very nuanced. (The lack of us really knowing his feelings for Shallan is really glaring, for example. We get a couple lines in WoR which are just listing character traits, and then the most we really see him even thinking about her is noticing her fawning over Kaladin IIRC.)

48 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I don't see her emotions as "love" for either, she is infatuated in different ways. I personally think that her infatuation with kaladin is more a result of recognising his ability to challenge her mentally/verbally so it has better long term prospects that just wanting to rip off his shirt.

Veil's feelings for Kaladin in OB were pretty superficial, though, which aligns with Shallan's mooning over Adolin. So much about eyes and rugged handsomeness and whatever else she goes on about. I found it annoying, but I think Brandon would say that it's accurate for teenagers (based on his lectures saying the emotions in Twilight felt right for teenagers, but the conclusion that this was "true love" was the unrealistic part.) I think we're supposed to see as readers that her attraction to Kaladin is deeper than that, but I'm not sure Shallan recognizes it as such. Of course, she's pushing those feelings down to Veil, so it's not like she's exploring them.

54 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I do think he is generally guided more by how he wants to be perceived than by his conscience. I think this might be one reason that the fashionista element to his character is being pushed so much.

Love this! Great to see a reason besides comic relief for this emphasis. There's like half a chapter in OB (Deadeyes, Ch. 101) which is primarily about how Adolin dresses himself and how Captain Ico and Azure perceive him because of it, which ties into this nicely.

59 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Snape was a nasty piece of work.

Ok, now we're fighting. I love, love, love Snape. "Always" will still bring tears to my eyes. Even after all this time...

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

This, unfortunately is a repeat of Shallan's joke about the hangman and the headsman (it's easier to get a head). I need BS to get some more jokes, and soon.

Or perhaps intentional that it's a repeat

47 minutes ago, analyticaposteriori said:

Coming back to this - those are some really strange choices made by BS. The book is 1300 pages long, your two main characters spend 4 of 5 Parts mostly in the same place and yet you barely give them any scenes (and i'm not talking only about romantic ones, but all kinds) and when you can give them some (flying to the peaks for a better view of the tower, flight to Thaylen) you weirdly omit them. Once again all of this keeps happening on the back of the fantastic WoR chasm sequence.

I didn't originally think it was that weird to omit the TC flying scene, but I find the tower viewing scene particularly suspicious because it's more of an easter egg that it even happened, since you have to tie it to Shallan's off-hand comment in part 1 and notice that Kaladin is on the sketch. Or maybe I just think it's weirder because I didn't realize it was Kaladin in the sketch until someone pointed it out. But it's strange. And like you it makes me think there's something to it besides space concerns. But I also probably read too much into everything Shalladin

@PhineasGage I feel like I co-opted your posting style. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?

PhineasGage · December 8, 2017

7 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

Snape was a nasty piece of work.

Ok, now we're fighting. I love, love, love Snape. "Always" will still bring tears to my eyes. Even after all this time..

I love Snape too! I mean I love him because despite being a really unpleasant person he was able to redeem himself. He had the potential to be a good decent person - and likely would have been had he had a better childhood, but the point is that he isnt a nice person and yet chooses what is right. I was always on team Snape when there were debates on whether he was a good or bad guy. But that doesn't make him nice. He just isn't.

12 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

I was going more for how I would feel as Shallan

Hmm thats a good point. I didn;t see it that way personally - i thought he just couldnt keep it in any longer - esp if she was opening up to him.

13 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

@PhineasGage I feel like I co-opted your posting style. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?

Well I'll take a compliment but I suspect it has more to do with efficiency than flattery

shawnhargreaves · December 8, 2017

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

2 hours ago, FuzzyWordsmith said:

“Hand to hand?”

Personally I have always preferred the term "punchy guys".....

This, unfortunately is a repeat of Shallan's joke about the hangman and the headsman (it's easier to get a head). I need BS to get some more jokes, and soon.

Two possibilities here:

1. Brandon is gradually turning into my dad, and forgetting that he already told that joke.

or:

2. He intentionally wrote Shallan and Kaladin independently coming up with the exact same pun?

Dreamstorm · December 8, 2017

11 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

I love Snape too! I mean I love him because despite being a really unpleasant person he was able to redeem himself. He had the potential to be a good decent person - and likely would have been had he had a better childhood, but the point is that he isnt a nice person and yet chooses what is right. I was always on team Snape when there were debates on whether he was a good or bad guy. But that doesn't make him nice. He just isn't.

Ok, I agree with this. We can be friends again

5 minutes ago, shawnhargreaves said:

2. He intentionally wrote Shallan and Kaladin independently coming up with the exact same pun?

Shallan actually said the first "a head" joke to Kaladin in the chasms, so if this is intentional it's even stronger, because Kaladin is either subconsciously or consciously copying her. Oh, I love how a repeated bad pun can become yet another pro-Shalladin argument

Vissy · December 8, 2017

2 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

She might feel this way, though I doubt it because she genuinely thinks she is 3 separate people. She doesn't recognise the feelings for Kaladin as being "hers" - they are "Veil's", so why should Shallan feel guilty? It isn't her fault that someone else fancies someone after all. I also don't think the fracturing is the result of romantic feelings at all - it is her past catching up with her. I therefore dont believe that the romance element to her story will be important for her eventual healing.

I agree, her healing will be the result of having time just to herself and working through her issues, maybe with the aid of another story from Hoid. The romance subplot will be finalized only after she has achieved her Fifth Ideal (or healed her psyche, whichever comes first). We really need to do an analysis of OB in similar vein as to your WoR analysis! I'm starting another re-read quite soon as a matter of fact.

2 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

So I personally see it a little differently, but the evidence is sketchy in either direction. I think "Shallan" has feelings for Adolin, "Veil" has feelings for Kaladin and "Radiant" has feelings for neither - she is the pragmatic unromantic one - she likely doesn't have the ability to love (she is a very 2D alter) at all. The "True Shallan" is separating her conflicting feelings by putting them in different personas. It is likely that she cannot therefore tell whether her feelings for one man or the other is greater. I don't see her emotions as "love" for either, she is infatuated in different ways. I personally think that her infatuation with kaladin is more a result of recognising his ability to challenge her mentally/verbally so it has better long term prospects that just wanting to rip off his shirt. That is me projecting a bit though as I personally look for intellectualism in a partner.

I personally handle the Veil / Shallan / Radiant dichotomy as such:

Veil: Team Shalladin

Shallan: Team Shadolin (and a bit of Team Shalladin, as in the natural history stuff)

Radiant: Team Shasnah / Team Shalladin

Just because Radiant is *always* fawning over just how perfect Jasnah is!

50 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Repeating what so many have said, this was awesome. I feel like every day there are more pieces of symbolism which tie these two together. If you're the dupe, well, he tossed away so much...

I didn't originally think it was that weird to omit the TC flying scene, but I find the tower viewing scene particularly suspicious because it's more of an easter egg that it even happened, since you have to tie it to Shallan's off-hand comment in part 1 and notice that Kaladin is on the sketch. Or maybe I just think it's weirder because I didn't realize it was Kaladin in the sketch until someone pointed it out. But it's strange. And like you it makes me think there's something to it besides space concerns. But I also probably read too much into everything Shalladin

@PhineasGage I feel like I co-opted your posting style. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?

Or then the reason why BS didn't show those scenes is because, well, y'know, you leave two people who like each other alone...

:lol: jkjk, but maybe he just didn't want to encourage Shalladin in this book, or maybe there wasn't space for them, or he wanted to make it into Shadolin all the way for Book 3 at least. Or maybe he didn't want to add too many Kaladin / Shallan chapters as there's already quite a lot of them in the book, and he needed the space for other characters.

I think I might've spirited away some of that writing style as well now...

Edited December 8, 2017 by Vissy

Rainier · December 8, 2017

10 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Shallan and Kaladin are both making choices, or not making choices, that leave them in a static state, unable to progress further on their own respective paths of Radiancy. And these choices are both wrapped up in denying the feelings they have for each other. If that isn't an indication that they are not done, then I don't know what is.

And this is why you're the Picard aboard this Good Ship Shalladin. Brilliant post, and great analysis of the rock/Tien/weight of the dead connection, not just at the end but also with Tarah. We can wrap this up with his scars to see if he can start living for the living, and stop thinking of himself as a slave.

2 hours ago, analyticaposteriori said:

The book is 1300 pages long, your two main characters spend 4 of 5 Parts mostly in the same place and yet you barely give them any scenes (and i'm not talking only about romantic ones, but all kinds) and when you can give them some (flying to the peaks for a better view of the tower, flight to Thaylen) you weirdly omit them. Once again all of this keeps happening on the back of the fantastic WoR chasm sequence.

I'll just jump in to remind everyone that neither Shallan nor Kaladin is the main character of this book: Dalinar is. He's the main character, and it's his plotlines that are prioritized and his revelations which are the crux of the book. Both Kaladin and Shallan have had their books, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them both slowly drop in screen-time, despite how heavily invested we as readers are in their characters. That doesn't make it any less disappointing, as 50 pages and counting can attest.

DeployParachute · December 8, 2017

34 minutes ago, Rainier said:

And this is why you're the Picard aboard this Good Ship Shalladin. Brilliant post, and great analysis of the rock/Tien/weight of the dead connection, not just at the end but also with Tarah. We can wrap this up with his scars to see if he can start living for the living, and stop thinking of himself as a slave.

Oh yay! I better shave my head and start drinking Earl Grey tea.

aemetha · December 8, 2017

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. I believe @aemetha is a trained psychologist and is using the term sociopath in the professional sense, rather than the sense we hear it in lay culture

To clarify, I am not a qualified psychologist, but I am training in psychology. My field of study is addiction counselling specialising in dual diagnosis. That said, I agree with everything else, but I do understand that it's easy to conflate the issue. I was describing a specific instance of behaviour, and not a pattern of behaviour which is where the confusion has arisen I believe.

Arch · December 9, 2017

23 hours ago, Awesomness said:

Passionate about beauty and nature ---> ?? some almost forgotten trait

This isn't really true. The first thing she does in Kholinar is study and document the corrupted spren. She the documents the apperance of the spren in Shadesmar too.

22 hours ago, Diomedes said:

Veil or Radiant don`t seem to have any artistic talent as shown by the mixed sketchbook

I don't know about that... Veil draws sketches perfectly fine, in WoR, for Mraize. You could say that at the time she hadn't factured in to Veil yet, but we dont really have a specific moment for when Veil was ''born''. I think that time (I think it was her 3rd or 4th apperance) is good enough to say she had become a person in Shallan's mind.

maxal · December 9, 2017

10 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I agree that this narrative may not ever come forward, but I suspect if that is the case it will be because Dalinar chooses not to tell Renarin and Adolin. Renarin may find out on his own, depending on how much "truth" he can see. I am a firm beleiver that the Sadeas murder will be dealt with before the end of book 5. Dalinar and Shallan have only just found out. It is possible that Ialai will place spies in Urithiru - she has a history of having extensive spy networks so I wouldn't be surprised if the secret is eventually found out and there is some kind of ramification. On top of that, why make Adolin kill Sadeas? It acheieves nothing for OB - that means the payoff is just later. It is coming,

With a one year time gap planned in between both books, I most surely do not expect Sadeas's death to matter much more than it did in Oathbringer. Adolin did speak the truth: Shallan didn't care, Dalinar cared a little, but didn't let this influence how he viewed his son. He offered to make a statement and claimed, while damaging, the event wouldn't threatened the Kholin's leadership in any foreseeable way. The only way I could see this plausibly played out, now every single player of importance has either been discarded or not bothered by it, if if the heir, similarly as Tanalan Jr did, went on a cruise to get vengeance. However, the heir is very young, so this will not happen until many more years and, considering the Desolation, it will likely be forgotten completely. Also, it is too much a re-enactment of the Rift.

As such I most definitely think Brandon is done with this arc: he is not one to re-cycle old threads nor to have them not be significant until 2 books down the road. Seeing how Brandon's writing style has evolved and cement with Oathbringer, I would claim he is one author to focus on the big narrative, the big focus, not the smaller ones. This is why character oriented readers are so disappointed, this is why so many of us feel scenes are missing: they are missing not because it foreshadows future development, they are missing not because the author wanted to leave "something" open for the future, they are missing because they didn't matter next to the main narrative.

Thus, I firmly believe Brandon considers the Sadeas affair done and gone. I'd be curious to hear his thoughts on his readers disappointment, but he's likely to say "A story cannot be everything to everyone, he focused on what was important and yes, some things were left out, but such is the story he wants to write. Readers can always edit it in their mind to fit their expectations better.". He will not say: "I never realized my readers were so invested into those story arcs. I can see now why the book is not working for any, if I were to do it again, I might change a thing or two.".

The matter of Dalinar burning Evi alive also lies with Sadeas: it is not important. Adolin does not need to know. Nobody knows but Dalinar, Kadash and Kalami. Nobody is ever going to tell Adolin and even if Dalinar were to come clean, Adolin will shrug it off just he shrugged off everything else. Nothing will ever tarnish how Adolin views his father because they would mean conflict within the heroes and Brandon has made it clear the conflict was not to be in between the Radiants, but in between either Dalinar and other nations or our heroes and the Fused. They aren't going to quarrel which is likely why they never talk one to another.

It is most definitely not coming. I will not believe unless someone can come out with a WoB having Brandon PROMISES he will take care of Adolin in ways his readers will find satisfying within future books.

10 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I think there is a bit of a misunderstanding here. I believe @aemetha is a trained psychologist and is using the term sociopath in the professional sense, rather than the sense we hear it in lay culture. This is important. An action can be sociopathic without the whole person being a sociopath. All that means is that the behaviour is sufficiently outside "normal" behaviour to be considered unhealthy both to the person in question and to society as a whole. A lack of remorse is considered a sociopathic behaviour, but a lack of remorse on its own is not enough to make someone a sociopath.

The example I'll use is the Antisocial Personality Disorder (DSM-5). Adolin does not have this. But one of its hallmarks is a lack of remorse and guilt. These people tend to act violently and don't learn from their actions - even if those actions result in legal problems (eg prison). These are the people sometimes termed "psychopaths" though psychiatists don't like the term because "psychopathy" just means disease of the mind - in the most general sense (eg depression is a form of psychopathy - but depressed people are not all "psychopaths"). My point is that you can call his behaviour problematic because it is closely associated with a specific disorder, without labelling him with that disorder.

I also quickly want to point out that even with justification, most people would feel guilt in this setting and that is what makes Adolin's lack of guilt appear sociopathic. Indeed generally people feel guilty even when they shouldn't. They justify their actions after the event and use that to erode their guilt away, but Adolin doesn't seem to start from there - at most he is ashamed because he doesn't want to be caught letting his father down.

And Brandon is an author, not a psychologist: not every single one of his character is coherent nor are they all well written. He gave Adolin a very traumatic childhood, but had him grow up well-adapted, well-behaved, steady, reliable, strong and seemingly normal within all the senses of the word. I am not a psychologist, but it seems far-fetched to think an abusive drunken father and a murdered mother aren't dire enough events to cause some adaptation issues into a growing boy.

However, a lack of remorse has never been one of Adolin's reactions within anyone of his other actions. He openly hates the killing, he is openly ill-at-east in having to kill fellow Alethi even if they betrayed their country, but he doesn't seem to feel much for Sadeas. He is seen to be worried over the consequences and his reaction, after the kill, is own of shock, not glee nor pleasure nor "I do not care". His early chapters had Adolin trying very hard not to think about it, presumably to avoid having to deal with the rush of emotions it would create.

The story however stops right here as Brandon drops the ball and later decides Adolin would not care. As such, I do not consider Adolin's apparent lack of care as testifying of sociopathic behaviors, I take it as a narrative mistake made by an author whom didn't want to write too much of Adolin, so he removed all reactions and brushed the affair under the carpet. I certainly do not believe Brandon will take it out, in a later book, and start using it to further craft Adolin.

Hence, readers aren't supposed to read Adolin as having "sociopathic behaviors", they are supposed to read him as he is written: "He is a well-adapted young man who pushes through hardships which are never big enough to bring down his enthusiasm nor his eagerness. Yes, he murdered a Highprince and yes, it should matter, but it doesn't because Adolin later rationalize it was the best course of action and once he chooses a course of action, he follows it without guilt nor remorse". He does the same in WoK and in WoR: once he decides to follow and believe Dalinar, all negative emotions vanish.

10 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I'm taking this to heart - thank you I must admit I enjoy other people's long posts myself so I am glad that you think this!

My take on this community has always been: I will post as long as I am enjoying it and as long as other people seem to enjoy reading my posts. Of course, I chose to have a fighting horse which never made unanimity, it caused me a lot of trouble, but as long as I believed what I wrote mattered, then I was happy to do it.

I can't however say if my involvement within this community will remain as it has been within the past four years. It has turned being very bittersweet as I feel I gave up a lot, but got not much in return. Arguably, it isn't why I was doing it in the first place, but looking back at my involvement, I came to believe it had no purpose other than myself passing time. It created many too strong emotions and perhaps my husband has been right all along: I should choose another hobby.

I however encourage anyone willing to keep on participating to do so, not everyone can turn so bitter and most people are better received within this community. You can hardly do worst than I.

10 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

So I would say even this is projection. We don't know Adolin's motivations for most of his behaviours. Kaladin gives an alternative option for Adolin's motives himself - that it is part of the games between Sadeas and Kholin princedoms. It might be that - we don't know. Adolin seems decent I grant you and his PoV'sdont give us any reason to think he is "evil" (i don't think he is) but I do think he is generally guided more by how he wants to be perceived than by his conscience. I think this might be one reason that the fashionista element to his character is being pushed so much.

We do not need his behavior to be spelled out because they are self-explanatory. There are no other motives for saving the prostitute than saving her: there is nothing in it for Adolin and I don't believe one minute he does it for the show. Where are the spectators? A bunch of disgruntled Sadeas's soldiers? Adolin doesn't care what they think of him.

Most of my character analysis had Adolin as a two fold person. There is the outside him, the him which wants to please, which tries hard to be everything for everyone (especially Dalinar) and will ignore his own well-being to conform himself to what he perceives he needs to be. Then there is the inside him, the compassionate very un-Alethi him, which, when pushes comes to shove, tend to get out as illustrated by his trek of inconsistent behaviors in WoR (not so much in OB). There is nothing wrong with Adolin's conscience nor sense of morality except he got it from his mother (confirmed by WoB) and, as such, has always done his best to repress because: 1) his father hated his mother, 2) his mother was the laughing stock of the Alethi society. However as OB progresses, Adolin becomes more and more like Evi, being more physical with Shallan, hugging, kissing and refusing the kingship. This was Brandon's way to make Adolin's facade come down, but it was poorly done without much drama nor conflict nor tension. Mind, I guess this is what he was going for, but as a long-term Adolin's fan, I was hoping for more. For a lot more.

On the fashionata thing-y, I would argue Adolin likes fashion either because it allows him to hide or because it allows him to expressed himself better.

10 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I wasn't suggesting that he is anything like Snape as a person - Snape was a nasty piece of work. But I do think that there is an opacity to their actions that gives them something in common.

Not really, Adolin is not opaque. Brandon has said it on numerous occasions: he does not think Adolin needs viewpoints because Adolin is self-explanatory. There is no hidden Adolin nor layer nor depth: what you see if what you get and, as thus, Adolin's action aren't opaque. They are exactly what the story tells us they are.

10 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I disagree - he loses his temper - he isn't considering anything but vengeance when he kills the man

Nope. He never once thought of personal vengeance. All he thought about was this man was about to keep on harming his daddy, hence he killed him. It wasn't retribution like Moash, but a son protecting a father. I used to say how twisted Adolin's relationship with his father was because he felt inclined to protect Dalinar whereas Dalinar has no instinct to protect Adolin. And it should be the other way around! But it doesn't seem Brandon wants to go down this way with his story. He means for Adolin to be loyal, hence he will stay loyal even if Dalinar doesn't deserve him.

aemetha · December 9, 2017

3 hours ago, maxal said:

Hence, readers aren't supposed to read Adolin as having "sociopathic behaviors"

And again, we have you misrepresenting what I said by applying it plural to a pattern of behaviour instead of the singular instance of behaviour that was described. I have clarified this on multiple occasions, and yet every time I open one of your comments in this thread you are doing it again. I don't know what else you have experienced here, but I can assure you, I never held any malice against you for your arguments. We can't have a discussion if everyone agrees on everything. I do take issue with you repeatedly misrepresenting what I said though - that's dishonest.

Edited December 9, 2017 by aemetha

PhineasGage · December 9, 2017

Oh this is much better - not quite so many posts for me to catch up on this morning

14 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Ok, I agree with this. We can be friends again

Phew. *wipes brow*

14 hours ago, Vissy said:

maybe with the aid of another story from Hoid. The romance subplot will be finalized only after she has achieved her Fifth Ideal (or healed her psyche, whichever comes first).

Yes I agree - I see her having a similar moment to Kaladin's moment where he said "Fleet kept running" - just before he says the 3rd Ideal. She hasn't yet properly realised that she is not a monster (what she takes from the Girl who Looked Up story imo) - tho I believe she is on her way (hence she allowed herself to be happy at her wedding). She needs a story about being split/reunification in my mind - and then she can take that and work with it.

14 hours ago, Vissy said:

Radiant: Team Shasnah / Team Shalladin

Just because Radiant is *always* fawning over just how perfect Jasnah is!

It works - WoB is that Shallan is subconsciously bisexual so that aspect of her could be pushed onto Radiant.

13 hours ago, Rainier said:

And this is why you're the Picard aboard this Good Ship Shalladin. Brilliant post, and great analysis of the rock/Tien/weight of the dead connection, not just at the end but also with Tarah. We can wrap this up with his scars to see if he can start living for the living, and stop thinking of himself as a slave.

I like the way this ties with the scars - the stone and the scars represent his emotional burdens that he has to set down so that he can view himself as whole and undamaged. The scars, to me anyway, represent more than simply his time as a slave - they represent his failures as well. I wonder if he is transferring the idea of his failures to the rock - and then once he is ready, he can put it down. Perhaps keep the rock somewhere as a form of shrine/memorial so he can still remember but doesn't have to have it as a constant reminder to him, literally weighing him down.

13 hours ago, Rainier said:

I'll just jump in to remind everyone that neither Shallan nor Kaladin is the main character of this book: Dalinar is. He's the main character, and it's his plotlines that are prioritized and his revelations which are the crux of the book. Both Kaladin and Shallan have had their books, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them both slowly drop in screen-time, despite how heavily invested we as readers are in their characters.

True - I hope not too much tho (Kaladin is my fave) - I was surprised how much time Kaladin got in WoR and how much time Shallan got in OB. I suspect that in SA4 we'll still get a lot of Dalinar, but perhaps less Kaladin and Shallan as a result of the time. I am looking forward to the Eshonai/Venli flashbacks and obviously Venli will give us loads of info we wouldn't otherwise get from our other MCs, but I don't want to lose too much of Shallan/Kaladin/Dalinar - mainly because I am assuming that at least 1 of them will progress in book 4 (Kaladin is my guess) - depending on exactly how many oaths Dalinar has actually said. Do we have WoB on that?

13 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

Oh yay! I better shave my head and start drinking Earl Grey tea.

Make it so. Oh wait, that's your line

6 hours ago, Arch said:

I don't know about that... Veil draws sketches perfectly fine, in WoR, for Mraize. You could say that at the time she hadn't factured in to Veil yet, but we dont really have a specific moment for when Veil was ''born''. I think that time (I think it was her 3rd or 4th apperance) is good enough to say she had become a person in Shallan's mind.

Shallan definitely doesn't fracture at that point in WoR. The key is who is named when she thinks - Shallan never thinks as Veil in WoR afaik (i can't find an example anyway). She sort of thinks of Veil as separate but it is still really more of a mask she wears to reveal aspects of her own personality that she normally hides. She only wishes "Veil" was in the chasms once - and then she goes on to manage just fine on her own. Later in OB we seem her think as Veil or Radiant and refer to Shallan in the third person.

5 hours ago, maxal said:

With a one year time gap planned in between both books, I most surely do not expect Sadeas's death to matter much more than it did in Oathbringer. Adolin did speak the truth: Shallan didn't care, Dalinar cared a little, but didn't let this influence how he viewed his son. He offered to make a statement and claimed, while damaging, the event wouldn't threatened the Kholin's leadership in any foreseeable way.

I don't think this is resolved because they get sidetracked by deciding who will be king and then Shallan pushing for Jasnah to take the throne. Dalinar is horrified when he finds out. He isn't about to go and make a proclamation because he needs to protect Adolin from the fall-out. We see a week gap between Dalinar finding out and the wedding but the announcement isn't made and I don't think it is going to be - which frankly is a political mistake (you should reveal things asap to prevent them leaking out and being used by your political enemies). This means someone else can find out the secret and use it against Adolin in some way. Blackmail, undermining his political power, his trial/execution etc. There are loads of possible ways this could go. Dalinar's view of Adolin is now very different as well. He specifically thinks that "Adolin [isn't] the man he thought he was". He still loves his son, but he genuonely thought Adolin was steady and a better man than Dalinar is. Now he knows Adolin is neither of these things - or at least is not them all the time. Dalinar doesn't trust himself. Its a constant recurring theme. Now he may not trust Adolin either. We may see his behavior gradually change over the time-skip. Even if Dalinar manages to get over it (not sure how - I mean it isn't something most parents can just brush aside - even while they still love their kids) it doesn't mean that there aren't many other people who wouldn't try to profit from the situation. What about the Skybreakers? I can't see Szeth loving this fact for example. The Ghostbloods want to make a play of some sort for power and this kind of secret could be huge. If they find out they could use it as further leverage over Shallan and Adolin. I mean, they may need to blackmail them to force Shallan to deal with Sja-Anat which seems likely to happen in SA4 rather than in the timeskip.

Lastly - of course such a statement would be damaging. It would suggest that Dalinar ordered Adolin to kill his political opponent. The truth wouldn't even matter then - people would worry (with good reason) that the Blackthorn was re-emerging and that he was prepared to do anything to seize power -including using his son as an assassin.

5 hours ago, maxal said:

As such I most definitely think Brandon is done with this arc: he is not one to re-cycle old threads nor to have them not be significant until 2 books down the road. Seeing how Brandon's writing style has evolved and cement with Oathbringer, I would claim he is one author to focus on the big narrative, the big focus, not the smaller ones

I disagree with this so entirely. Brandon uses minor plots all the time and has them drag through under the radar. Mistborn is literally filled with minor plots that seem to go slowly/be dropped then randomly appear later on and prove to be significant.

Spoiler

Vin's Earring - which is brought up all the time but the fact that she is being influenced by Ruin is only clear at the end of the trilogy - yet it drives a huge amount of her arc.

Kelsier's death (then his supposed (false) and actual resurrection for Mistborn 2nd trilogy)

The whole flower thing from Kelsier's wife --> the rebirth of Scadrial

Sazed (tho only one interested in religion) becomes God. Also "I am, unfortunately, the Hero of Ages".

The mists - obviously of preservation - and that Vin is a vessel for preservation right from book 1 (but she can only use them when she loses her earring - because that is on Ruin)

Spook having problems with having flared his tin too much in book 3 - based on advice given in book 1 by Kelsier to Vin.

This is by no means a complete list, it is just a few threads I could come up with quickly to make my point. Storms he even has scenes that are reflected in each of the three books. The difference between Mistborn and SA is that the first Mistborn trilogy is complete so we can see the threads tie up.

5 hours ago, maxal said:

We do not need his behavior to be spelled out because they are self-explanatory. There are no other motives for saving the prostitute than saving her: there is nothing in it for Adolin and I don't believe one minute he does it for the show. Where are the spectators? A bunch of disgruntled Sadeas's soldiers? Adolin doesn't care what they think of him.

He cares what his fellows think of him. If he didn't he wouldn't worry so much about his appearance. And of course he cares what the Sadeas troops think of him - he will just want it to be negative. Point is that we don't know because we don't see it. I am happy that Adolin was simply being a decent human being. But I can't prove it. This is my point. We need to be careful whenever we push motivations onto him - whether we see those motivations as good or bad is irrelevant. Going forward, if his motivations change we also likely won't see it and thus we cannot be sure if they are changing or how.

5 hours ago, maxal said:

tend to get out as illustrated by his trek of inconsistent behaviors in WoR

Can you tell me what you mean? I didn't find Adolin inconsistent at all except for his murder of Sadeas. He still looks at other women, he still likes socialising in winehouses, he is a bit of a snob (think the menagerie is "low") but nothing too awful, he is still decent to those beneath him socially - aside from Kaladin at the beginning (and thats a personal grudge which he gets over). I can't think of many inconsistencies at all. If he'd been inconsistent I'd have found him more interesting - but he's predictable to the point of being boring in WoR (imo).

5 hours ago, maxal said:

Not really, Adolin is not opaque. Brandon has said it on numerous occasions: he does not think Adolin needs viewpoints because Adolin is self-explanatory.

So I had a look for som WoBs on this and I'll quote them below - these are from https://wob.coppermind.net/basic_search/?query=adolin the search I did and all come from BS.

Quote

Adolin has basically always had the same personality, from TWOK Prime, through the original draft of the published TWOK, to the revision. The changes to making him more strong a viewpoint character were very natural, and he has remained basically the same person all along--just with an increased role in the story, and more development because of it

Quote

I am well aware that many people are very interested in what is happening to Adolin, and I consider him one of the more interesting and unexpected developments of the series, in deviation from the original outline. I intend to dig into things with him in the book.

Quote

I still think you're over reacting, and prematurely at that. Jasnah was a major force in the first book, and became many people's favorite, despite having no viewpoints. Sometimes, keeping someone from having viewpoints actually enhances their story.

Quote

Questioner

Would you say that it's going to have any ramifications for him down the line? With how it was handled?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh it's definitely—how it's handled, definitely there are ramifications, lots of ramifications. And there are certain characters who would think that what he did is totally, totally, totally wrong.

So that last one completely refutes the idea that it is going to be dropped. That was from 2014 but just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't. If there is a WoB that shows nothing will happen that is more recent then we can consider it done as a plot, but as far as I could find, there is nothing more recent that refutes this statement. For one thing, we haven't seen any character react extremely negatively to it yet.

5 hours ago, maxal said:

Nope. He never once thought of personal vengeance.

I didn't say "personal" I said "vengeance". Adolin, as you pointed out, identifies with his House. He was acting to gain revenge for his House. And he did so when he was "irrevocably" enraged - apart from a tiny part of him that was "amused". Amused? I mean that, if nothing else, is sociopathic. No matter how much you hate someone, the act of murder is not amusing .

December 9, 2017

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

Even if Dalinar manages to get over it (not sure how - I mean it isn't something most parents can just brush aside - even while they still love their kids) it doesn't mean that there aren't many other people who wouldn't try to profit from the situation.

Not to mention Ialai Sadeas, the woman everyone seems to forget. She's been sent away from Urithiru in disgrace and was obviously very stricken with grief that her husband was killed. She has lost everything and nothing more to lose, who knows what she'll do if she finds out Adolin killed Torol.

Vissy · December 9, 2017

1 hour ago, PhineasGage said:

True - I hope not too much tho (Kaladin is my fave) - I was surprised how much time Kaladin got in WoR and how much time Shallan got in OB. I suspect that in SA4 we'll still get a lot of Dalinar, but perhaps less Kaladin and Shallan as a result of the time. I am looking forward to the Eshonai/Venli flashbacks and obviously Venli will give us loads of info we wouldn't otherwise get from our other MCs, but I don't want to lose too much of Shallan/Kaladin/Dalinar - mainly because I am assuming that at least 1 of them will progress in book 4 (Kaladin is my guess) - depending on exactly how many oaths Dalinar has actually said.

Book 4 AFAIK will be Szeth's book, and now that Venli is added to the cast as a main viewpoint character, I think you're right - it stands to reason Kal and Shallan will have less viewpoints. Maybe Kaladin will be busy conquering and protecting his newly-acquired lands in Alethkar, justifying his absence? I don't know how, but it might also give him the chance to swear his Fourth Ideal, as it would be his first time in a leadership role of that capacity. Shallan might be featured more prominently, though, given that many of her plotlines are currently tied up with Adolin's, who will probably stick around with Dalinar. Then again, maybe Dalinar will opt to send Adolin away - perhaps to oversee war efforts somewhere - as a means of sending him away from trouble (due to now knowing that he murdered Sadeas), thus justifying Shallan's absence too. That set-up might mirror Dalinar and Evi too much to happen, though. It would give Adolin the opportunity to grow harsher and more Blackthorn-esque through the crucible of war, which is a side of him that has been foreshadowed in his murder of Sadeas, though.

Quote

He cares what his fellows think of him. If he didn't he wouldn't worry so much about his appearance. And of course he cares what the Sadeas troops think of him - he will just want it to be negative. Point is that we don't know because we don't see it. I am happy that Adolin was simply being a decent human being. But I can't prove it. This is my point. We need to be careful whenever we push motivations onto him - whether we see those motivations as good or bad is irrelevant. Going forward, if his motivations change we also likely won't see it and thus we cannot be sure if they are changing or how.

I agree with this as well. Adolin is a very interesting character to me, because he's so full of opposites in many ways. Aforementioned murder contrasts with his otherwise great personality. He is shallow in so many ways, and yet quite deep in many others.

PhineasGage · December 9, 2017

1 hour ago, Vissy said:

Book 4 AFAIK will be Szeth's book

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116-general-reddit-2017/#e4007

Mrrobot112

Now when Oathbringer is finished have you already chose a flashback character for Stormlight 4?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. It's Eshonai.

Just FYI

@Ailvara just read your alternate ending for OB and I loved it. I get why she couldn't have done it because she was probably still too broken to have enough insight into herself, but how I wish she had been that Shallan. in OB. SO much better as an outcome. And makes her seem to like Adolin more. *sigh*

Edited December 9, 2017 by PhineasGage

Vissy · December 9, 2017

Wawwwwwww I remember he said sometime before that Szeth was going to have his turn during Book 4. Guess I haven't kept up with the info.

Dreamstorm · December 9, 2017

6 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Do we have WoB on that?

Yup we do https://wob.coppermind.net/events/262-oathbringer-glasgow-signing/#e8803

Quote

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

In that one long rejection of Odium, how many Oaths did Dalinar swear before merging the Realms? And is "I am Unity" the fifth.

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

No, that is not an Oath. He swore one ideal in that experience.

Hoidonalsium [PENDING REVIEW]

Okay. How many Oaths is he on?

Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]

The number you think. So, he should have just finished three, right? Or maybe four. I'll have to go look. It's the number that you think it is. I'm not being sneaky on you. There's nothing sneaky there. He doesn't get armor, so I can't remember where he is... He should be at three. "Life before death." "I will unite instead of divide." "I will stand up each time I fall." Yeah, so he's done three.

@maxal you may take this the wrong way, but where you are with Adolin's character development is pretty similar to how a lot of us felt about the love triangle resolution; there was so much there and why, why, why didn't Brandon use it when he was the one who wrote it in the first place?!? I think a lot of us have sorted through our feelings (50+ pages of feelings, so many feelings) and basically come to the conclusion that, it's not over. This is the absolute middle book of the 5-book arc, so there is a lot of story left to tell. I personally think the reason Adolin's arc didn't progress is because it is very tied to Shallan's romantic arc; in fact both of them are stuck in the same place as they were in WoR (Sadeas is dead, not much came of it besides the reveals to Shallan and Dalianar which could have happened in the first chapter of OB to be honest; Shallan is still with Adolin and Kaladin still feels like it's not his place to be in the middle, the only thing which came of it was betrothal turned into marriage and we now have plenty of confirmation that Shallan (via Veil) has feelings for Kaladin, whereas that was not so explicit in WoR.) So, I think we will see major shifts on both these fronts in the next book, possibly primarily because we will see major developments for Adolin. One thing I noticed in your post is that in order to deal with your grief over Adolin not doing much (I'm using grief because going through the stages of grief was much referenced on this thread in terms of the love triangle resolution), you are thinking of things in terms of absolutes; I don't think we know a lot of the things you assert we know, and though I understand that it can feel satisfying to do a 180 in order to cope with your disappointment over Adolin's arc (i.e. Brandon will never do anything with Adolin's character), that kind of thinking ends up making me more upset! On a couple specific points:

13 hours ago, maxal said:

Seeing how Brandon's writing style has evolved and cement with Oathbringer, I would claim he is one author to focus on the big narrative, the big focus, not the smaller ones. This is why character oriented readers are so disappointed, this is why so many of us feel scenes are missing: they are missing not because it foreshadows future development, they are missing not because the author wanted to leave "something" open for the future, they are missing because they didn't matter next to the main narrative [.....]

I'd be curious to hear his thoughts on his readers disappointment [...] He will not say: "I never realized my readers were so invested into those story arcs. I can see now why the book is not working for any, if I were to do it again, I might change a thing or two.".

I've found his books to be completely opposite - side characters end up being well-fleshed out. To take Mistborn as an example, in the first book, the focus is tightly on Kelsier and Vin, but by the end we have full story arcs for Marsh, Sazed, Spook, Breeze, TenSoon, and I would even say Dox and Clubs get a lot of nuance. On your point about Brandon not being reflective, he wrote the following about Ham's character in the Mistborn annotations:

Quote

Chapter Fifteen

Ham

I've expressed before that I wish I could have done more with Ham. Of the main crew, he's the only one other than Clubs who never got even a token viewpoint in the series.

I just didn't have the time for everyone. Perhaps, as I write more and more, I'll get better at covering more ground with fewer pages. That will let me branch out into studying more of the lesser characters and rounding them out. However, for this series, I had to pick and choose carefully. Ham's story didn't have enough conflict, tension, or growth in it. So, I went with Spook and TenSoon instead.

One thing I have noticed about Brandon, is that he frequently is analyzing the quality of his work and how he can make it better. Since we are at a mid-point of a very long series, it's hard to evaluate where things will be at the end. I think you're right that he won't say now - "I messed up and made Adolin boring" - because that would give away too much future plot by saying Adolin is always going to be boring. Also don't forget we know the betas did bring up the Sadeas point, so that reader reaction has been brought to his attention; he just chose to handle it the way he did. My opinion is that Adolin has the fourth-most viewpoints after our main three; he has, as you note, a ton of backstory and character development; but we just haven't seen any payoff for that backstory and development. I think it's coming!

13 hours ago, maxal said:

Brandon has made it clear the conflict was not to be in between the Radiants, but in between either Dalinar and other nations or our heroes and the Fused.

This isn't the case, actually. With the Skybreakers following Odium and Malata working against our main crew (spying and possibly opening the Oathgate to Kholinar), we have seen Radiant discord already. The in-world WoR book excerpts also show divisions between orders. Increased Radiant v. Radiant conflict will almost inevitably become more prominent as the series goes on.

13 hours ago, maxal said:

It is most definitely not coming. I will not believe unless someone can come out with a WoB having Brandon PROMISES he will take care of Adolin in ways his readers will find satisfying within future books.

I think this is the tricky part... I think I can 99.9% guarantee we will see significant development from Adolin in the future. Now, will you find that development satisfying? I don't know. Based on little hints (e.g. off the top of my head - whitespine, Sadeas killing, Adolin's satisfaction with the Sadeas killing, some of his aggressive actions from Kaladin's PoV before they were friends), I think Brandon could be priming us for a Dark Adolin character arc... If that's the case, I bet that will be hard for a lot of readers to swallow. That's just one way of tying together the hints we have about Adolin's future path, but I am very, very confident he will develop into a less "perfect" character, if only because I have no evidence that Brandon as an author will let his fourth-most prominent character go completely to waste; he just hasn't done that before. (Re. Ham above, he was the equivalent of saying Drehy didn't get enough development.)

Anyway, I don't mean this as an attack so I hope you don't take it as such, but I do think your disappointment over Adolin's development in OB has made you look at things in a very absolute manner, which is possibly making you even more disappointed. We have a lot more to see of Adolin in books to come!

Edited December 9, 2017 by Dreamstorm

Awesomness · December 9, 2017

@DeployParachute you brew my mind with that stone. Great catch!

21 hours ago, Rainier said:

Both Kaladin and Shallan have had their books, and I wouldn't be surprised to see them both slowly drop in screen-time, despite how heavily invested we as readers are in their characters.

I think the fact that we are having flashbacks from dead characters (Eshonai, but I wouldn´t be surprised if Ash, Taln, Renarin or Jasnah die before their respective book) may open more room to keep exploring our main beloved characters.

6 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

WoB is that Shallan is subconsciously bisexual so that aspect of her could be pushed onto Radiant.

Hahaha Really? Do you have the WoB?

Btw those Adolin WoB were great. I still hope we´ll get something more juicy from Adolin. through the books we have explored the actions, consequences and underlying morality of so many characters, I refuse to believe this plotline will be left open.

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

Not to mention Ialai Sadeas, the woman everyone seems to forget. She's been sent away from Urithiru in disgrace and was obviously very stricken with grief that her husband was killed. She has lost everything and nothing more to lose, who knows what she'll do if she finds out Adolin killed Torol.

I wonder where did she go...

9 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

@maxal you may take this the wrong way, but where you are with Adolin's character development is pretty similar to how a lot of us felt about the love triangle resolution; there was so much there and why, why, why didn't Brandon use it when he was the one who wrote it in the first place?!? I think a lot of us have sorted through our feelings (50+ pages of feelings, so many feelings) and basically come to the conclusion that, it's not over. This is the absolute middle book of the 5-book arc, so there is a lot of story left to tell.

You read my mind and worded it better than I could I loved Oathbringer, but it gave me a middle-book-feel of incompleteness.

PhineasGage · December 9, 2017

1 hour ago, Awesomness said:

Hahaha Really? Do you have the WoB?

Annoyingly I can't find the original WoB but this kind one kind of references it:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/35-arcanum-unbounded-hoboken-signing/#e4826

I'll keep looking and try to remember to edit this post with it when I post it (i'll tag you again)

1 hour ago, Dreamstorm said:

Yup we do https://wob.coppermind.net/events/262-oathbringer-glasgow-signing/#e8803

Wooo Shiny I am pleased, I was one of the boring ones thinking it needed to be three (for more growth later). Means we'll get more Dalinar awesome when he levels up again!

2 hours ago, Dreamstorm said:

Also don't forget we know the betas did bring up the Sadeas point, so that reader reaction has been brought to his attention; he just chose to handle it the way he did. My opinion is that Adolin has the fourth-most viewpoints after our main three; he has, as you note, a ton of backstory and character development; but we just haven't seen any payoff for that backstory and development. I think it's coming!

And this is even more true is Adolin is slated to survive all 10 books. I mean if Kaladin is slated to die in book 5, then he would be at 3 of 5 in terms of his growth. If Adolin gets 10 books then he needs less time per book to get the same development. I personally think Adolin is wearing a redshirt (Star Trek reference for those who don't get it) so his time is limited, but most of us don't yet have enough reason to either want him dead or mourn him the way his family would if he were to die. We still need a bit more movement on this.

[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

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