[OB] Adolin-Shallan-Kaladin Discussion

[PhineasGage]

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Though if they are getting too much for you, you should stop!

Nope  Except when I had a bad night - usually I love doing them. I just had other things that also needed doing today so I couldnt blitz through it like normal. I overslept this morning so didn't get my usual 2-3 hours free first thing (stupid insomnia) 

[Calyx]

4 hours ago, SLNC said:

It would make sense... Maybe that Prince Charming image is his cage... Going back to the "whitespine uncaged" thing. I can't help but think, that there is something more... primal and blackthorn-y whitespine-y beneath his mask.

Exactly.

She doesn't even tell Adolin, why she chooses him, but rather why she doesn't choose Kaladin. She tells it as much for herself as she tells it seemingly for him. It is all about convincing herself and we know how good she is with that.

Welcome by the way!

I've seen this point a few times, and I can't figure out why people think that Shallan doesn't tell Adolin why she chooses him - she goes on a fairly lengthy tirade listing the reasons why she likes him.

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Calyx said:

I've seen this point a few times, and I can't figure out why people think that Shallan doesn't tell Adolin why she chooses him - she goes on a fairly lengthy tirade listing the reasons why she likes him.

Oh, for sure. What I meant is how she tells it not only for Adolin, but to convince herself.

And I specifically meant this passage in the tirade, which seems to be the pivot anyway:

Quote

Never mind if he actually seems to get you, and remarkably listens to your problems, encouraging you to be you—not to hide yourself away.

Which is actually something Kaladin never encouraged, Shallan just (purposely?) misinterpreted it. He just said, that whatever she is doing seems to be working.

Well and her intonation, that she doesn't stop speaking and is out of breath afterwards. It seems like she is hammering those reasons into her brain, making herself believe Adolin really is better.

Might have stormed up the wording in my original post. Was writing it on the side at work.

Edited December 7, 2017 by SLNC

[Rainier]

I'm not a fan as Adolin-as-whitespine, as I still assign that sybolism to Kaladin (like he needs any more). Kaladin is the one we see wilt in captivity. Kaladin is the dangerous beast (shash brand). Kaladin even had a flashback scene that featured a whitespine off screen. Remember, Kaladin is the wild, chaotic nature and Adolin is the proper, upstanding civilization. Rock formation (or apex predator) vs sculpture (or duelist). This is why Adolin is a duelist and not a hunter: his is the civilized violence of men, not the raw simmering volence of a beast. 

Even the chapter title, Whitespine Uncaged, is referring to Kaladin, not Adolin. After all, everybody knows that Adolin is a duelist. He's not caged, and if he were at one point by this point he's already been uncaged for a series of duels. It's Kaladin that comes out of his cage by putting himself in the midst of shardbearers and using stormlight to defeat them. He's the whitespine who's been uncaged, and he's the dangerous beast they throw in prison afterwards. 

I think this is the major difference between Kaladin and Adolin. Adolin is civilization, high society, fashion, commerce, law, and trade. Kaladin is the wild, low society. Even though he's educated and a surgeon, he's still a loner, standoffish, and generally still described as a natural phenomena such as a rock formation instead of a delicate piece of art such as a sculpture. In DnD, Kaladin is Chaotic Good and Adolin is Lawful Good, given the law-chaos axis represents civilzation vs the wild and not literally follows the law or doesn't.

Everything else in this thread is golden, however, so I won't let that minor disagreement derail anything.

 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Kaladin is Chaotic Good

Kaladin follows a strict moral code (as in a law) and acknowledges a legitimate authority (Dalinar). I'd rather put him to LG rather than CG.

[Vissy]

I'd actually say that Adolin is not a Lawful Good, but rather a Neutral Good - the ends can justify the means for him, whereas an LG would consider the journey before the destination. Kaladin (and all Radiants that are of Honor) are by necessity Lawful Good.

Awesome posts, @PhineasGage and @SLNC and @Subvisual Haze, I really enjoyed reading all of this. Do you guys think that Book 4 will feature Shallan confronting her fractured psyche and trying to become whole, perhaps leading to realizing how she has been deluding herself? Wouldn't it be quite bittersweet for that to happen just when Kaladin is about to throw himself into another suicide mission? Leading to both of them reaching their Fourth Ideals? Hmm.... 

Edited December 7, 2017 by Vissy

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Vissy said:

I'd actually say that Adolin is not a Lawful Good, but rather a Neutral Good - the ends can justify the means for him, whereas an LG would consider the journey before the destination. Kaladin (and all Radiants that are of Honor) are by necessity Lawful Good.

I agree. Adolin is more NG, while Kaladin is LG by necessity with having a strict moral code and being dependent on oaths.

13 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Do you guys think that Book 4 will feature Shallan confronting her fractured psyche and trying to become whole, perhaps leading to realizing how she has been deluding herself?

I do think so. She has to reintegrate her alters before she can attain self-awareness, that will lead her to finally acknowledge, that she killed her mother - without seeing herself as a monster for it. Otherwise she will stagnate. As Veil will become a part of her again as consequence, I do think, that she will also see her delusion then. It all depends on whether or not she comes clean with Adolin then.

13 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Wouldn't it be quite bittersweet for that to happen just when Kaladin is about to throw himself into another suicide mission? Leading to both of them reaching their Fourth Ideals?

I would very much like that. Not only from a shipping point of view, but because ever since those characters have been introduced and they have shown, that they can really work together, I've been looking forward to them fighting together. Assuming, that she goes with Kaladin on that mission.

Edited December 7, 2017 by SLNC

[Info_Drone-0451]

5 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Do you guys think that Book 4 will feature Shallan confronting her fractured psyche and trying to become whole, perhaps leading to realizing how she has been deluding herself?

I certainly hope so. Especially the bolded part needs to happen.

 

6 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Wouldn't it be quite bittersweet for that to happen just when Kaladin is about to throw himself into another suicide mission? Leading to both of them reaching their Fourth Ideals? Hmm....

Yeah, it would be. Honestly bittersweet isn't that bad, although it annoys me at times, as just simple sweetness can be quite dull in my opinion. And who knows what happens after the suicide mission, especially if they reach their 4th ideals... 

[PhineasGage]

1 hour ago, Calyx said:

I've seen this point a few times, and I can't figure out why people think that Shallan doesn't tell Adolin why she chooses him - she goes on a fairly lengthy tirade listing the reasons why she likes him

Lets have a look at her reasons:

• Handsome as sin
• kind to everyone
• passionate about his art
• humble in a confident way
• he gets her
• listens to her
• encourages you to be you and not hide yourself away
• being near him makes her want to rip his shirt off

So of those, the first and last are essentially the same and not relevant for a long term relationship. I think they are good as part of a romantic relationship - but they won't last. Lets therefore focus on the rest of them.

1) Adolin is decent to people in the grand scheme of things - this is a fair comment, but he is hardly unique in this regard. Indeed, Shallan herself does more for "the common man" in Kholinar than Adolin does. He doesn't actually go out of his way to make people's lives better. Its not a criticism so much as a fact. He believes in the hierarchy of society.

2) Yes - he loves duelling. I am not sure why this matters to Shallan as she is less interested in duelling herself, and as far as I can see they share little time discussing each other's interests. It is fine not to be as engaged with your partner's interests, but you should be interested a bit - if only for their sake. Do we see passion in other aspects of Adolin's life? Not projected passion we ascribe to him- passion he himself tells us of?

3) Not really. He is realistic about his lack of radiant powers. Prior to that he was self assured and therefore not boastful of his position because he didn't need to be. He was one of the most instantly recognisable people in the Shattered Plains, he imply didn't need to boast. I don't think that makes him humble so much as self assured. Self assurance is good - but she is wrong to describe him as humble.

4) Does he? Are we sure? We don't see Adolin's perspective on him "recognising her". She assumes so, but she is not 100% infallible. Because I can think of at least 2 situations where he doesn't get her at all.

5) Really? Again, are we sure? I think he listens pretty well in general, but Shallan hasn't actually told him that much of herself yet so she has no empirical evidence of this. Does he know the names of her brothers? Or what her favourite food is for example? If not, why not? Why don't we know whether he knows them? Storms even Kabsal knew about her favourite food....

6) This is a dig at Kaladin. And actually is probably wrong anyway given that she should be aiming to reintegrate her identities not split them further

 

The problem is that the reasons sound hollow. Can she not come up with something more specific? I mean, Adolin has some really good qualities that are his own but none of the ones she mentions couldn't be applied to Kaladin as well. And yet they are quite different people. Why doesn't she love the fact that he can always see the positive side of things, or that he doesn't really get her jokes, or that he loves fashion despite having to be in uniform all the time, or that he is surprisingly good at admitting when he is wrong.? Those are all things that are specific to Adolin. They may seem frivolous (like the fashion) but they can also show his ability to push aside more serious concerns and just have some fun. 

 

33 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I'm not a fan as Adolin-as-whitespine, as I still assign that sybolism to Kaladin (like he needs any more). Kaladin is the one we see wilt in captivity. Kaladin is the dangerous beast (shash brand). Kaladin even had a flashback scene that featured a whitespine off screen. Remember, Kaladin is the wild, chaotic nature and Adolin is the proper, upstanding civilization. Rock formation (or apex predator) vs sculpture (or duelist). This is why Adolin is a duelist and not a hunter: his is the civilized violence of men, not the raw simmering volence of a beast. 

I can see where you are going with this. I am not anti the whitespine thing myself - to me Kaladin is the chasmfiend, not the whitespine. He is even more at home in the chasms and is vastly more dangerous than Adolin could be (in their present states). 

 

33 minutes ago, Rainier said:

In DnD, Kaladin is Chaotic Good and Adolin is Lawful Good, given the law-chaos axis represents civilzation vs the wild and not literally follows the law or doesn't.

I personally see Kaladin as Neutral Good - he follows laws he agrees with, and breaks those that oppose "what is right". If I were a DM for this character I would have him be switching between chaotic and neutral - mostly neutral leaning chaotic. I cannot see him breaking laws without good reason so I wouldnt leave him fully chaotic personally. On top of that as a person he isn't "chaotic" - he is controlled. Also his oaths are kind of laws he has to follow so he cannot break them. I suspect that he will never quite get to lawful, but that he will lean closer and closer as he has more and more sway over how those laws are applied (eg in his newly acquired lands)

With Adolin its a bit more difficult for me. Prior to his murder of Sadeas I'd have said he was true neutral or neutral good (remember he hates having to follow the codes and would prefer not to have to even tho he can see the point), but I could possibly have said he was leaning lawful good. However the murder made me very uneasy about his arc. The murder strikes me as a Chaotic Evil choice, and he gets there very suddenly. I definitely feel he is True Neutral now because he feels no remorse, and acts in a neither lawful nor chaotic manner. He seems happy to go with the flow to an extent - and currently the flow is coming from "Good" characters like Dalinar and Kaladin. True Neutral characters are very interesting from a plotline perspective because their motivations are usually the most opaque.

Interestingly, Dalinar was Chaotic neutral/evil as a youth. He has changed over time to reverse this entirely to become Lawful Good. His period immediately around his visit to the Nightwatcher was his "True Neutral" period - he spent most of it drunk and unconscious after all. We could suggest that he and Adolin are on inverse arc as a result?

As an aside, Shallan is Chaotic Good, and I don't see any suggestion that she is changing. Szeth is Lawful Neutral and also seems set in his alignment.

 

15 minutes ago, Vissy said:

Do you guys think that Book 4 will feature Shallan confronting her fractured psyche and trying to become whole, perhaps leading to realizing how she has been deluding herself?

Yes I do, but I don't think she will be complete with it by the end. I think she will continue with the "Shallan" alt dominating over the other alts for most of it, and her progression will come from unerstading her 4th ideal in some way she hasn't acknowledged yet. Her final "healing" will come when she recognsised herself as 1 person - not 3 and this will be her 5th truth and the stormlight will be able to heal her spiriweb because her understanding of herself will mend her psyche. This is very much opinion based tho - I have no evidence to support it.

[Dreamstorm]

47 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I'm not a fan as Adolin-as-whitespine, as I still assign that sybolism to Kaladin (like he needs any more). Kaladin is the one we see wilt in captivity. Kaladin is the dangerous beast (shash brand). Kaladin even had a flashback scene that featured a whitespine off screen. Remember, Kaladin is the wild, chaotic nature and Adolin is the proper, upstanding civilization. Rock formation (or apex predator) vs sculpture (or duelist). This is why Adolin is a duelist and not a hunter: his is the civilized violence of men, not the raw simmering volence of a beast. 

Even the chapter title, Whitespine Uncaged, is referring to Kaladin, not Adolin. After all, everybody knows that Adolin is a duelist. He's not caged, and if he were at one point by this point he's already been uncaged for a series of duels. It's Kaladin that comes out of his cage by putting himself in the midst of shardbearers and using stormlight to defeat them. He's the whitespine who's been uncaged, and he's the dangerous beast they throw in prison afterwards. 

I totally get where you're coming from here with how the characters tie into the symbolism.  I think Brandon, however, ties Adolin to whitespine pretty strongly in the Whitespine Uncaged chapter ("Adolin attacked. [...] They were like spears prodding at a whitespine.  And this whitespine was not yet caged.") and again in The Darkness (Ch 22) where Ialai compares Sadeas' killer (who we know to be Adolin) to a whitespine.  I think where this gets really interesting is that Shallan definitely doesn't seem to think of Adolin as a whitespine.  (She is the one making the fine art vs. rock formation comparison.)  To pull back @PhineasGage's point that  because we mostly see Adolin through the eyes of others, our perspective of Adolin is skewed.  We actually see Adolin's personality mostly through Shallan, and she is our least reliable narrator.  So I don't know how much I trust the "perfect boyfriend" spin she puts on him.  If we look at Adolin from Kaladin's viewpoint before they become friends, we get a different picture.  What is sticking out in my mind is Kaladin and Adolin's spar in Ch. 18 Bruises where Adolin (wearing shardplate) slams Kaladin (without shardplate) so brutally that Zahel really gets into Adolin about his behavior.  That's not the perfect, humble prince who is kind to everyone...

57 minutes ago, Rainier said:

In DnD, Kaladin is Chaotic Good and Adolin is Lawful Good, given the law-chaos axis represents civilzation vs the wild and not literally follows the law or doesn't.

 I have no clue what this is!  Can someone educate me?

18 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

Lets have a look at her reasons:

• Handsome as sin
• kind to everyone
• passionate about his art
• humble in a confident way
• he gets her
• listens to her
• encourages you to be you and not hide yourself away
• being near him makes her want to rip his shirt off

You totally read my mind about breaking this down   Couple more things to add...

19 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

3) Not really. He is realistic about his lack of radiant powers. Prior to that he was self assured and therefore not boastful of his position because he didn't need to be. He was one of the most instantly recognisable people in the Shattered Plains, he imply didn't need to boast. I don't think that makes him humble so much as self assured. Self assurance is good - but she is wrong to describe him as humble.

Adolin's actually not that humble, especially about his dueling.  He is decidedly arrogant in Ch. 22 Lights in the Storm ("When I beat them." after Kaladin uses "if").  Again, this is Kaladin's perception (they aren't friendly at the time), but I think it's safe to say Adolin is arrogant, not humble, about his dueling skill.  (That arrogance seems warranted, but it's still there.)

26 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

4) Does he? Are we sure? We don't see Adolin's perspective on him "recognising her". She assumes so, but she is not 100% infallible. Because I can think of at least 2 situations where he doesn't get her at all.

Not to go down this path again, but there wasn't a whole Shallan for Adolin to even recognize... I think this is pretty well supported by the WoB on that fact the Shallan is one person in the spiritual realm, and as such any persona who is shutting out Veil and Radiant isn't the whole Shallan.  So, yes, Adolin recognizes "Shallan", but this statement loses its power if Adolin just recognizes when one part of Shallan is dominating.

27 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

5) Really? Again, are we sure? I think he listens pretty well in general, but Shallan hasn't actually told him that much of herself yet so she has no empirical evidence of this. Does he know the names of her brothers? Or what her favourite food is for example? If not, why not? Why don't we know whether he knows them? Storms even Kabsal knew about her favourite food....

Though he might listen to the words she says, he also has exhibited many times he's tone deaf to noticing how she's feeling (e.g. when she was distressed about learning the sword and disassociates into Radiant; when she's distressed over learning Kaladin killed Heleran), and I would even argue that their most intimate conversation - where Shallan admits to her fractured personas and Adolin tells her he killed Sadeas - shows tone deafness as well, despite the fact that he seems to come to the correct conclusion (they are both lying to the world.)  He turned a topic which was very personal and distressing to Shallan into a conversation about himself.  Is that really listening?

32 minutes ago, PhineasGage said:

6) This is a dig at Kaladin. And actually is probably wrong anyway given that she should be aiming to reintegrate her identities not split them further

Agreed so much on this being flat out wrong.  By pushing for "Shallan" to be the persona and subjugating Veil and Radiant, he's actually encouraging her to not be herself (again I think the WoB makes it pretty clear the real Shallan is all three together as that is who she is in the spiritual realm) and to hide parts of herself (Veil and Radiant) away.  He doesn't know it, though, but that doesn't make the effect any better.

[Rainier]

4 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

 I have no clue what this is!  Can someone educate me?

In Dungeons and Dragons, and various derivative works, a character's alignment is represented along two axes: Good-Evil and Law-Chaos. There's some debate about which characters fall into which sections of the alignment grid, and it's generally a fun and illuminating way to interpret a character's actions.

My specific point was about a distinction in these arguments about the nature of the Law-Chaos axis. Good-Evil generally has fewer confusions, but lots of people think Law is following the laws, or a code, or keeping your word. I like to think of it as the opposite of Chaos, so it's closer to Order-Chaos or Civilization-Wilderness, and that was the distinction I was trying to make regarding Kaladin and Adolin: Adolin as Order, Kaladin as Chaos. But that's more of an argument on the characterization of the system than anything really specific about our characters, although you can see how it's prompted some reactions already.

So to try again, Adolin is Law/Order: the sculpture, the fashion, the wines, the everything pomp and circumstance and High Society. Kaladin is Chaos/Nature: the rock formation, the sullen intensity, the lack of patience for propriety and social strata, the constant allusion to winds and storms and natural phenomena that cannot be walled in or restrained.

It's not perfect, but it's where my mind went when I started thinking about Adolin vs Kaladin as a whitespine. I'll have to concede on that particular imagery, as I like @PhineasGage explanation of Adolin as whitespine and Kaladin as chasmfiend. It doesn't quite get at the raw wild nature vs constrained human society, but that's my fault for shoehorning it in to a slightly separate idea.

[Calyx]

17 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said:

Agreed so much on this being flat out wrong.  By pushing for "Shallan" to be the persona and subjugating Veil and Radiant, he's actually encouraging her to not be herself (again I think the WoB makes it pretty clear the real Shallan is all three together as that is who she is in the spiritual realm) and to hide parts of herself (Veil and Radiant) away.  He doesn't know it, though, but that doesn't make the effect any better.

My impression when reading this section is that Shallan is rapidly switching between personas - including her complete one, which she definitely adopts infrequently throughout the book (like confronting the unmade in the tower). Adolin is able to recognize as she switches personas, and I believe that this was who she was when she was wooing him in WoR, which was before she really started fracturing.

I'm sure their relationship would be challenging - honestly, any relationship involving Shallan is going to be a challenge - but I do think Adolin is good for her. He grounds Shallan and doesn't push her, which is probably exactly what she needs to resolve her problems, because she needs to resolve those problems on her own. Kaladin would be insufferable in this role, always trying to fix things - both counterproductive for Shallan and unfairly painful to Kaladin, who really has enough struggles.

[Dreamstorm]

16 minutes ago, Rainier said:

So to try again, Adolin is Law/Order: the sculpture, the fashion, the wines, the everything pomp and circumstance and High Society. Kaladin is Chaos/Nature: the rock formation, the sullen intensity, the lack of patience for propriety and social strata, the constant allusion to winds and storms and natural phenomena that cannot be walled in or restrained.

It's not perfect, but it's where my mind went when I started thinking about Adolin vs Kaladin as a whitespine. I'll have to concede on that particular imagery, as I like @PhineasGage explanation of Adolin as whitespine and Kaladin as chasmfiend. It doesn't quite get at the raw wild nature vs constrained human society, but that's my fault for shoehorning it in to a slightly separate idea.

Thanks!  I'll have to look it up.  I totally agree with your distinction too... playing off Order vs. Nature can we possibly think of these as Known (understood, studied, explained) versus Unknown (novel, mysterious, requiring additional scholarship) where despite its aggressive nature, whitespines are well-known by Rosharians (Shallan notes in WoK Ch. 39 Burned Into Her that scholars prefer studying big, dynamic animals like whitespines, which implies there has been a lot of scholarship on them, plus they are common enough in Alethkar proper, i.e. hunted by Kaladin's town, and kept in menageries) versus chasmfiends who weren't even known to exist until recently and haven't been studied properly.

5 minutes ago, Calyx said:

My impression when reading this section is that Shallan is rapidly switching between personas - including her complete one, which she definitely adopts infrequently throughout the book (like confronting the unmade in the tower). Adolin is able to recognize as she switches personas, and I believe that this was who she was when she was wooing him in WoR, which was before she really started fracturing.

I'm sure their relationship would be challenging - honestly, any relationship involving Shallan is going to be a challenge - but I do think Adolin is good for her. He grounds Shallan and doesn't push her, which is probably exactly what she needs to resolve her problems, because she needs to resolve those problems on her own. Kaladin would be insufferable in this role, always trying to fix things - both counterproductive for Shallan and unfairly painful to Kaladin, who really has enough struggles.

I totally agree he's recognizing her switching between personas, but I don't think whole-Shallan is in the mix.  If it was, and especially if that was what Adolin selected, why would she need to "stuff down" Veil and Radiant "into the back part of her brain" a few paragraphs later?  If they were integrated during the "That's the one I am" decision, than that decision would have been made taking into account all three personas, so there would be no need to suppress any of them.

There are many varying opinions on what would work best for Shallan to resolve her problems, but one thing you'll see people mention a lot (at least on our admittedly pro-Shalladin thread) is that it's not good for Adolin to be treating one of Shallan's personas differently from the other, which he is by refusing to be intimate with Veil and treating her as a drinking buddy.  Another common theme is that I don't think anyone has thought Shallan should have run to Kaladin and started a relationship with him; the popular conclusion (again, of this pro-Shalladin crew) has been that Shallan should have chosen to not be in a relationship with either guy.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Dreamstorm

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Calyx said:

My impression when reading this section is that Shallan is rapidly switching between personas - including her complete one, which she definitely adopts infrequently throughout the book (like confronting the unmade in the tower). Adolin is able to recognize as she switches personas, and I believe that this was who she was when she was wooing him in WoR, which was before she really started fracturing.

Uhm. Okay, this is going to get deep into it.

The one Adolin was couring in WoR was not actually Shallan. It was a mask. That is the Shallan he recognizes and is attracted to/loves. This is reflected in how he deals with the Veil personality, which inarguably is a part of Shallan, but he doesn't see it as such, because she has never shown him that before.

Shallan says it herself in Oathbringer:

Quote

It wouldn’t be her. The real her was a bruised and sorry thing, painted up all pretty, but inside a horrid mess. She already put a face over that for him [Adolin].

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book Three (Kindle Locations 15007-15008). Orion.

Now regarding Shallan's fracturing. As she faced new situations, where she couldn't cope with the pain the Fourth Ideal she spoke left, she created new personas. These are Veil and Radiant. Now, there are not just some random perfect persons, that Shallan imagines, but actually based on herself. Veil was created in WoR and there she says that she actually incorporated a part of herself into Veil. Particularly the bold and confident part of herself. Back then, she wasn't fractured, but she used Veil as a disguise. Radiant was created kind of like that. She couldn't wield the sword as Shallan, so she had to split off the part of her that could, the strong and pragmatic part, to a new alter called Radiant. Now that was a real fracture, because of the stress she was in. The same she later chooses to do with Veil. So we have now three personalities inside of Shallan's head, with imaginary borders, as she is still one individual in the Spiritual Realm. This is why she is situationally switching between them - on instinct. These personalities are all incomplete. The complete Shallan is all of those three together. Another hint to that is during the Battle of TC.

Quote

Shallan, Veil, and Radiant held hands in a ring. The three flowed, faces changing, identities melding. Together, they had raised an army.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book Three (Kindle Locations 23054-23055). Orion. 

Remember how I said, that Adolin only sees the Shallan mask she always wore as the "real" Shallan? Coincidentially, the Shallan personality that is left after fracturing is exactly that mask she crafted. Smart, quick in wit, innocent and sweet.

This is also why I think, that Kaladin didn't really recognize the switches. Firstly, he never was that focused on her in a physical way, so he probably would have had a hard time picking up visual cues, unlike Adolin does, but he always was focused on her regarding her behavior, asking himself why she does things she does. He does pickup on some hints in her behavior, but doesn't further act on them, because: He always knew the complete Shallan. He doesn't only know the sweet and innocent side, but also the bold and confident side. The resilient side. He has seen all of that in the chasms. So, he doesn't recognize any switching that occurs, because he isn't surprised, when Shallan is thinking bold. He already knows this side of her (like when she/Veil suggests a mutiny to get the crew to cooperate)

Quote

It sounded reasonable. Well, except for the fact that the honorspren were watching them. And the fact that the Fused knew where they were now, and were probably gathering forces to give chase. And the fact that they had to somehow escape from a ship in the middle of a sea of beads, reach the shore, then hike two hundred miles to reach Thaylen City.

All of that could fade before Kaladin’s passion. All but the worry that topped them all—could she even make the Oathgate work? She couldn’t help feeling that too much of this plan depended on her.

Yet those eyes . . .

“We could try a mutiny,” Veil said. “Maybe those mistspren who do all the work will listen. They can’t be happy, always hopping about, following honorspren orders.”

“I don’t know,” Kaladin said, voice hushing as one of these spren—made entirely of mist, save for the hands and face—walked past. “Could be reckless. I can’t fight them all.”

“What if you had Stormlight?” Veil asked. “If I could pinch it back for you? What then?”

He rubbed at his chin again. Storms, he looked good with a beard. All ragged and untamed through the face, contrasted by his sharp blue uniform. Like a wild spren of passion, trapped by the oaths and codes . . .

Wait.

Wait, had that been Veil?

Shallan shook free of the momentary drifting of personality. Kaladin didn’t seem to notice.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book Three (Kindle Locations 19724-19736). Orion.

And directly after that, look how she turns unconfident again. All her confidence lies by Veil.

Quote

“Maybe,” he said. “You really think you can steal the gemstones back for us? I’d feel a lot more comfortable with some Stormlight in my pocket.”

“I . . .” Shallan swallowed. “Kaladin, I don’t know if . . . Maybe it would be best not to fight them. They’re honorspren.”

“They’re jailers,” he said, but then calmed. “But they are taking us the right direction, if only inadvertently. What if we stole back our Stormlight, then simply jumped off the ship? Can you find a bead to make us a passage toward land, like you did at Kholinar?”

“I . . . guess I could try. But wouldn’t the honorspren simply swing around and pick us up again?”

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book Three (Kindle Locations 19736-19742). Orion.

 

Edited December 7, 2017 by SLNC

[Vissy]

Could it be that Shallan is feeling horrible for betraying Adolin's love and expectations somehow, or feeling horrible for merely thinking that that was what she was doing when she swooned over Kaladin, and that is causing her to overcompensate in the other direction - to the point where she actively has to suppress the parts of herself? She genuinely does like Adolin, and clearly has romantic feelings for him as well, but then again she has romantic feelings for Kaladin too. None of this has changed. All in all, I think she needs a lot of time for just herself in the next book xD

[Lightblessed]

Just to put my two cents on the “triangle”.

I just want to say I mean no disrespect meant to any Shadolin/Shalladin/No shippers by my opinion.

Being a Shalladin shipper from the beginning I just became catatonic at the cheesy declarations/whatever of love between Adolin and Shallan. That made me think “Let me write my cheesy version of Shalladin and see if I cringe”.

So i wrote a short verse describing the qualities of my ship and genuinely found myself shipping it even more.

Here it goes…

 

The Bond that is so Torn,
The Bond that is so Forlorn,
The Bond that was made an Unborn;

Nevertheless......

A Bond rivaling a Radiant Morn,
A Bond revamped from mutual Scorn,
A Bond... to coalesce her, a Reborn.

 

I honestly believe that Kaladin can help in healing Shallan if they were just able to communicate a little bit without an active thought to the betrothal in OB.

Adolin… he just seems to me the normal guy ( w.r.t other characters ) and the idea of being in love genuinely fascinated him and “Shallan” provided the exact thing. Which he was looking for and the poor guy had no info on the baggage Shallan was carrying, so he was mesmerized with the “Shallan” persona.

Shallan… ha! She, to me, is a beautiful mess that i fell for her even more after her dissociation. She had no idea of what that closeting away was doing to her and grasped the first safety anchor that was presented to her. If she gave a smidgen of a chance to Kaladin in OB just as in the chasm, I feel Kaladin would really have helped her face the truths just as he faced his’.

Kaladin… What can be said about him that was not said before? He is the perfect protagonist for this series. He valued his relationship with Adolin and honored the betrothal by keeping his ‘silly daydreams’ to himself engaging in a much professional/platonic talk with Shallan.

So overall, I am very much disappointed with the conclusion (the choice and the way it was handled) and I do believe Sanderson put and end to the ‘romantic’ part of it as he himself stated that he was satisfied by the way of handling the situation on the beta readers AM(A)A on reddit.

So, I just hope that he develops a friendly/professional relationship with Shallan which i will cherish in order to sate my shipping heart.

Also, props to @SLNC, @PhineasGage for their Sanderson-y discussions and dissections of the “traingle” which helped me get over the disappointment…. almost.

Edited December 7, 2017 by Lightblessed

[insert_anagram_here]

3 hours ago, Rainier said:

In DnD, Kaladin is Chaotic Good and Adolin is Lawful Good, given the law-chaos axis represents civilzation vs the wild and not literally follows the law or doesn't.

3 hours ago, Vissy said:

I'd actually say that Adolin is not a Lawful Good, but rather a Neutral Good - the ends can justify the means for him, whereas an LG would consider the journey before the destination. Kaladin (and all Radiants that are of Honor) are by necessity Lawful Good.

3 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

I personally see Kaladin as Neutral Good - he follows laws he agrees with, and breaks those that oppose "what is right". If I were a DM for this character I would have him be switching between chaotic and neutral - mostly neutral leaning chaotic. I cannot see him breaking laws without good reason so I wouldnt leave him fully chaotic personally. On top of that as a person he isn't "chaotic" - he is controlled. Also his oaths are kind of laws he has to follow so he cannot break them. I suspect that he will never quite get to lawful, but that he will lean closer and closer as he has more and more sway over how those laws are applied (eg in his newly acquired lands)

With Adolin its a bit more difficult for me. Prior to his murder of Sadeas I'd have said he was true neutral or neutral good (remember he hates having to follow the codes and would prefer not to have to even tho he can see the point), but I could possibly have said he was leaning lawful good. However the murder made me very uneasy about his arc. The murder strikes me as a Chaotic Evil choice, and he gets there very suddenly. I definitely feel he is True Neutral now because he feels no remorse, and acts in a neither lawful nor chaotic manner. He seems happy to go with the flow to an extent - and currently the flow is coming from "Good" characters like Dalinar and Kaladin. True Neutral characters are very interesting from a plotline perspective because their motivations are usually the most opaque.

Oh I love all the DnD alignment discussions

I'd put Kaladin on Chaotic Good because he acts as his conscience directs, he desires freedom but holds a resentment toward legitimate authority, he is altruistic, he respects life and is concerned about the dignity of sentient beings (even if they aren't humans).

And I'd put Adolin on Lawful Evil because he is obedient to authority, he is reliable, traditional but sometimes judgmental. He methodically takes what he wants (dueling) within the limits of a code of tradition, loyalty, or order.

http://engl393-dnd5th.wikia.com/wiki/Alignment

It's strange because instinctively I wouldn't make out Adolin as Evil in any way, but within the descriptions provided in the DnD rules, that's how he would be aligned.

31 minutes ago, Lightblessed said:

I do believe Sanderson put and end to the ‘romantic’ part of it as he himself stated that he was satisfied by the way of handling the situation on the beta readers AM(A)A on reddit

Welcome on board the forums (and the ship) But No! Do not give up hope yet!

Sanderson would be satisfied by how the OB ending was handled because there is a lot of evidence pointing that he is making a parallel between Dalinar-Navani-Gavinor and Kaladin-Shallan-Adolin. So it could all be part of his plan of promoting that Shallan is capable of loving both men. And also, if you acknowledge that he deliberately foreshadows the Shallan and Kaladin relationship (as it is evident is so many ways), you have to either convince yourself that Sanderson did that by mistake or trickery, which none of the two sound like him as an author.

Just read back on all these marvelous 50 pages of thread and you'll come out a changed person.

Edited December 7, 2017 by insert_anagram_here
typos, oh so many typos...

[Rainier]

2 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said:

I'd put Kaladin on Chaotic Good because he acts as his conscience directs, he desires freedom but holds a resentment toward legitimate authority, he is altruistic, he respects life and is concerned about the dignity of sentient beings (even if they aren't humans).

And I'd put Adolin on Lawful Evil because he is obedient to authority, he is reliable, traditional but sometimes judgmental. He methodically takes what he wants (dueling) within the limits of a code of tradition, loyalty, or order.

 

Oh boy, not only do you put them opposing on the Law-Chaos axis, but on the Good-Evil axis. I just assumed they were both good, because that's not the contrast I wanted to make, but I like your arguments for how Adolin can be evil, from a DnD perspective if not a Cosmere perspective.

I'll disagree with you, because I think Adolin matches Lawful Good better than Lawful Evil/

Quote

Lawful good (LG) creatures can be counted on to do the right thing as expected by society.

Quote

Lawful neutral (LN) individuals act in accordance with law, tradition, or personal codes.

Quote

Lawful evil (LE) creatures methodically take what they want, within the limits of a code of tradition, loyalty, or order. 

So in these three alignments, I see Dalinar as Lawful Good, Szeth (surprise) as Lawful Neutral, and Sadeas as Lawful Evil. I don't think any of these are very controversial, although Dalinar was absolutely Lawful Evil in his flashbacks, and his experiences at the Rift, his brother's death, and his visit to the Nightwatcher moved him slowly from Evil to Good.

Szeth I feel I shouldn't have to explain. He held to his personal code and it nearly destroyed him. He's bound to a spren that expects him to hold to those oaths. He will follow those oaths, period.

Sadeas is the one who methodically takes what he wants. He's the one who has plans and plots that won't ever come to fruition, because they're backup plans. He's the one who doesn't care whether Dalinar is right or wrong, he just cares about advancing his own interests. However he still works within the Alethi society and its customs.

Adolin, on the other hand kills Sadeas for exactly this reason, and he does so outside of the Alethi customs. He's probably between Lawful Evil and Lawful Neutral, because he still acts in accordance with his laws and codes, most of the time. Killing Sadeas definitely moved him towards Lawful Evil, but he was probably close enough to Lawful Good beforehand that I wouldn't move him straight there. 

[Awesomness]

7 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

1) Adolin is decent to people in the grand scheme of things - this is a fair comment, but he is hardly unique in this regard. Indeed, Shallan herself does more for "the common man" in Kholinar than Adolin does. He doesn't actually go out of his way to make people's lives better. Its not a criticism so much as a fact. He believes in the hierarchy of society.

Exatcly this is the main reason why I don´t think he will become an ED. Glad you mentioned it because I was begining to think I was alone  in this matter.

5 hours ago, SLNC said:

He does pickup on some hints in her behavior, but doesn't further act on them, because: He always knew the complete Shallan

I´d like to add a comment on this. Who was the Chasm´s Shallan? She was:

• Funny --> Princess Shallan
• Naive, proper --> Princess Shallan
• Brave --> Veil
• Independent ---> Veil
• Passionate about beauty and nature ---> ?? some almost forgotten trait
• Heroic --> Radiant
• Compassionate  --> Veil
• Positive --> Princess Shallan
• True, sincere, broken --> True Shallan
• Self confident --> Veil / Radiant
• Etc (you are welcome to add adjectives too)

Funny thing is, Shallan sees herself as insecure, and this is a treat she associates to Princess Shallan, but I don´t think Kaladin ever sees her being insecure. I ´d say she is at her best around Kaladin (except when she snaps at him, and I associate this to Helaram´s death)

Adolin recognizes Princess Shallan, wish is currently the persona Shallan identifies with. But she can be so much more!!! -this is when I get frustrated at her all over again...

4 hours ago, Lightblessed said:

So overall, I am very much disappointed with the conclusion (the choice and the way it was handled) and I do believe Sanderson put and end to the ‘romantic’ part of it as he himself stated that he was satisfied by the way of handling the situation on the beta readers AM(A)A on reddit.

Welcome and don´t worry. Read the thread and you will find your way onboard again!

 

6 hours ago, Calyx said:

Kaladin would be insufferable in this role, always trying to fix things - both counterproductive for Shallan and unfairly painful to Kaladin, who really has enough struggles.

Funny that at the end of WoR people said Shalladin shouldn´t be because it would be unfair to ask Shallan to be Kal´s light. Now their arcs are reversed. He, as well as Adolin, are in relative good places: Shallan is a mess. I don´t think I´ve read much about how unfair is for Adolin to "anchor" Princess Shallan...

We should throw a party when we hit the 100 pages! Violet wine for everyone!

Edited December 8, 2017 by Awesomness
Added an incredibly good idea

[Diomedes]

1 hour ago, Awesomness said:

Passionate about beauty and nature ---> ?? some almost forgotten trait

I think this is a fundamental trait of true Shallan. In the beginning of WoR before she had created any of these personas (Princess Shallan/Veil/Radiant) we see her diving into the ocean just to study the Santhid. Though this part of her has leapt into Princess Shallan. She went together with Adolin  to study the whitespine in the zoo as Princess Shallan in WoR. Veil or Radiant don`t seem to have any artistic talent as shown by the mixed sketchbook. All these talents have gone to Princess Shallan. Oh and according to this assessment all good sketches of Kaladin have been made by Princess Shallan or true Shallan....... 

What did Kaladin and Shallan talk about on the ship in Shadesmar? They were mostly nerding out about stuff, great spren and the like. Her passion in this regard is a fundamental trait of true Shallan which she cannot share with Adolin. In some ways this is the key to her true identity. Choosing between scholarly life and keeping on lying to Jasnah was her entire arc in WoK. Kaladin totally "gets" it and Adolin does not. Shallan is also quite amiable towards Kaladin in this scene, which means we are talking about real Shallan here. It cannot be Veil, because she is not interested in scholarship. If Veil would be, she would have spotted the fishy stuff going on with the children in Kholinar, but she did not. Her recognition of killing her father in this scene ("I remember", p. 933.) confirms that this is real Shallan. 

As is stands  now all Shallan personas have feelings for Kaladin. Princess Shallan does not want to admit it and blames this on Veil, but her stares reveal her ambigious feelings. Veil is completly on team Shalladin. Radiant is pretty emotionless, but she also favors Kaladin. True Shallan... well she certainly has feelings for Adolin and Kaladin.

Only two Shallan personas have developed feelings for Adolin. Princess Shallan is infatuated with him and true Shallan, well I do not know actually how far true Shallan`s love for him goes. Did she ever confess to Adolin that she killed her father? As long as she does not do that we will never know if true Shallan has had any contact with Adolin.    

Edited December 8, 2017 by Diomedes

[maxal]

19 hours ago, DeployParachute said:

What a well written post in its entirety, and thanks for writing it. I want to focus on what you wrote above: now I don't know if writing Oathbringer will take Dalinar the full year of the time gap that is planned, but don't you think it is possible for Adolin to have a severe negative reaction to what Dalinar did to his mother at the very least? Something? #iwannabelieve

I wanna believe too. Been around in the 90s? I really want to believe, but Brandon has proven one thing which writing OB was he resolutely was focused onto the main narrative. It is one aspect of writing he often broached within his classes and conventions, how his goal was to write an epic fantasy which doesn't get bloated, which doesn't stall. He feels the secret recipe to achieve it is to never lose focus of the main narrative, it is to never divert his attention towards the side arcs and, as such, we cannot expect the story to focus on Adolin's internal issues unless they allow Adolin to grow in a way the main narrative needs him to. However since he isn't a main protagonist, there aren't very strong chances this may happen.

Hence, while I do agree with you Adolin, by all means, should have a very negative reaction towards finding out the extend of his father's involvement within his mother's death, I would not bet a great deal lot of eggs Brandon will go there. Moreover, I do think knowing his mother died burned alive as opposed to just "murdered", knowing she suffered, knowing it wasn't quick, but instead horrible, should be a shock, a terrible shock. BUT if it doesn't fit within the bigger narrative, if it serves no purpose (and so far Adolin's inner issues haven't served any purpose), then it is unlikely to go much further down the: "Oh bags" kind of reaction.

16 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Valid point. However, we have three years of waiting ahead of us, so we might as well live the story the way we want during this time and strategically crush our expectations a few months before SA4.

I have been there, I have gotten my expectations very high for Oathbringer only to see them get crushed into tinier pieces as the release date got nearer. Right after we finished WoR, a majority of readers thought Adolin was a much more important character than the author ever intended him to be. At the time, we didn't know the name of all the flashback characters, we all, well most of us, expected Adolin to be one of those characters, so guess the disappointment when it turned out being Shalash who filled the last open spot. Imagine how crushing it was to know Jasnah, Lift, Renarin and basically every single name character of lesser importance (according the narrative we had read so far) were getting it, but not Adolin? Argh, this was so frustrating. Then I convinced myself it meant nothing, I convinced myself not getting a flashback didn't mean a character couldn't grow and be important into the narrative.

Four years of speculation, character analysis and theories, great work, fun work, but so little pay-off in the end. As such, living the story the way we want it, hoping it will turn somewhere closer to where we want it may make us create unwarranted expectations or think the author we are reading is.. different.

16 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I wouldn't say he is a sociopath either. On the contrary, he does what many people would do given the same circumstances. However, I have a question for you. The way Moash wants justice for his grandparents and to free Alethkar of a bad king - how different is it really from what Adolin does to Sadeas? On the level of outcomes, these are both valid choices (at least at first - until you consider all the mess with Amaram, Sadeas troops and the Thrill) - they just stand in opposition to the "journey before destination" moral implications. In the reality of SA - end of the world, hard decisions and all that jazz - being a good person is not always about not being a complete baddie. Sometimes it is about being exceptionally strong in unfair situations, that would make an evil person from an average, or even above-average one (even paladin-Kaladin is so close to falling down this path after all). So, if Adolin turns evil, I wouldn't see it as a manifestation of his overwhelming internal darkness, but a consequence of facing too many challenges and moral confusion, that wouldn't end well for many normal, good people.

As for the second part, I really hope, that this relationship is going to backfire. Dalinar hasn't had enough problems yet, has he? While Adolin feels no guilt partly because of his loyalty, I can completely see him starting to question it after he learns of Dalinar and Evi. And then, to question himself and the murder as a natural consequence. Usually, I would expect to see the seeds of conflicts for the next book more clearly at the end of the preceding one. However, Brandon seems to make the books more contained - I'm talking especially about Mistborn1-Mitsborn2 and Shallan's fracturing being nonexistent in WoR, though influenced by it. 

To be a sociopath Adolin would need to have absolutely no moral conscience: not feeling guilty over one murder is not enough. Adolin felt justified to kill Sadeas because Sadeas was trying to harm Dalinar. He needs no additional justification. Moash is completely different situation: he wants revenge for his grand-parents death and, as such, is targeting the man being indirectly responsible for it. The major difference is Elhokar does not have a personal vendetta against Moash's family, he probably doesn't even know who he is.  Nobody Moash knows is at risk nor is being threatened: he just wants revenge. Adolin is much different because the threats are real and are being made against people he loves for no valid reasons. Both characters motivations are entirely different and what Adolin did needs not be an "ending", it could also be a "journey": it depends what he does with it.

My personal wish would be for the narrative to focus more on Adolin than on Dalinar (which is why I loved WoR so much) because I find the son more interesting than the father. So while it is realistic to expect Adolin's vision of his father to shatter upon hearing the truth, we are again putting much faith into a relationship issue which is unlikely to matter nor to be important.

16 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Aaand, that makes at least two of us (my focus isn't Adolin, but I'm always happy to find validation for my daydreaming).

I love making stories into my head. Years ago, I had insomnia and I couldn't sleep. Reenacting stories, making them, fueling them really helped take the focus out of the "real-life stuff" which kept being bugged into my head. Not being an author, I rely on other people to come up with stories I like and characters I find both engaging and interesting. Stormlight Archive

11 hours ago, PhineasGage said:

Phew, so now that's over I'd like to add my thoughts to the Adolin discussion. I haven't addressed this point by point because it is a complex subject and I want to try and keep my thoughts on it coherent.

Firstly, I want to address something that occurred to me this morning. How much are we each projecting onto Adolin?

This is a really important subject - and needs to be dealt with before we can go further with his character analysis. If we fail to recognise this may be an issue, then any analysis is inherently flawed.

So why do I say this? Well firstly, I feel Adolin falls into a kind of "uncanny valley" in terms of his portrayal. He gets a lot of screentime from other people but relatively little time as an actual PoV character. Let me put it this way - do you know how many PoV chapters Adolin gets in tWoK for example? I massively overestimated it - he only gets 10 PoV chapters - and he shares every one of those with at least 1 other PoV character - ie Kaladin or Dalinar. This puts Adolin in a unique position in the story - he gets a great deal of page-time for his actions (at times almost equal or even greater than Kaladin) , but vastly less time for his motivations. This makes him ripe for us projecting onto him because we want to explain his actions and without his inner monologue, we have little or no information to go on. 

I suspect that this explains in part why some people relate to him and others do not - we are projecting different things onto him.

Let us look at a specific example - his protection of the whore in tWoK. Why does he do it?

Quick answer: We don't know. 

Long answer: We see this from Kaladin's perspective and the whole episode is coloured by Kaladin's perspective - he is not an unreliable narrator like Shallan, but he still tells things as he sees them, not as they "truly" are. We know the truth is subjective and our PoVs are equally so - and we must remember this is true for all our characters, though some may be more problematic (*cough Shallan *cough) than others. We never see Adolin think about this event. His motivations may have been pure and honourable, or they may have been base, but the crucial thing is we don't know because we don't see them.

So I know people will try to draw analogies with other events and say this points to this thought patterns and behaviors, and they will have a point. The problem is that throughout all 3 books, we see relatively little of Adolin's motives. He tends to get "in the moment" PoVs - eg his duels, where his introspection is limited. That means that we have many examples of behaviors that are never explained. We can try but we are working with very limited data. 

The issue for Adolin's actions is that they are primarily seen through the eyes of people who want to see the best of him. Dalinar is exceptionally proud of Adolin and doesn't see his flaws particulary. Shallan wants to see him in the best light and goes out of her way to make herself like him. Even Kaladin, despite the fairly rocky start, conceded that Adolin is a decent bloke long before he acknowledges it verbally. His view of Adolin also may therefore work in Adolin's favour. This is very different from how the same characters view (eg) Sadeas - who gets almost nothing but negative ideas - even from Dalinar - throughout tWoK and WoR. We might agree he is "bad" because he opposes our heroes but let's be honest, we know even less of his motivations than we do Adolin's. He may yet be redeemed. 

Unlike other side PoV characters, it is Adolin's onscreen actions that are important rather than his on-screen thoughts. That seems likely to continue. But where we see Renarin's position (i.e. a good guy - definitely trying to be one based on his PoV) - we see Adolin acting in concert with his position within his family and the expectations of him. That doesn't mean he doesn't "think like a good guy" the problem is that we have limited proof of it. Renarin sees his father fail to fight Odium in his vision and pleads for him to fight (and so shows his feelings about it) and he essentially allows Jasnah to kill him (because he thinks she is probably right to) whereas Adolin does what he is told and doesn't question it. As I said, I am not suggesting that Adolin wants to question it - the point is, by not seeing himself question his own actions, we don't know where he stands. The closest we get is his introspection about how to handle Dalinar's "madness" and even then he doesn't tell us much about why he is worried. We get a few hints - that he is worried for Dalinar (understandably) or that he is worried for himself (he doesn't want to be highprince). But we don't see how he reconciles himself to his eventual outcome. Is it selfishness that drives him or selflessness? I don't think we know because we don't see him make the decision.

Again, I am not suggesting Adolin's position is "evil".  It is more that I think we feel like we know him as well as our 3 MCs - but in fact we don't. 

So given all this, where do we go from here?

I think people are concerned regarding Adolin's arc progression and I just wanted to point out that (a) Sanderson wouldn't invest this much time into a character just to keep him as a light aside - so we will see more, and (b) we actually have limited info regarding where he is now so deciding his progression is difficult.

I actually think the "whitespine" may be a very good analogy for Adolin as a result of this. A top predator is not "evil" or "good", it simply "is". Anthropomorphism of an animal tells us more about people than the animal in question. I feel that Adolin is perhaps more neutral than many of us would naturally place him. He has the propensity to go either way (as do we all) and thus is likely to be very important. Like Snape in Happy Potter, his position is unique and may be much more important than he initially appears.

I know we can argue that "actions speak louder than words" and I would normally agree, but in a work of literary fiction, we essentially only have words and motivations are vital for truly understanding someone. I, for one, will be re-reading Adolin with this in mind and trying to decide what his PoVs alone can tell me - and try to ignore the bias regarding him that other PoVs inevitably give him. 

Ok, this post has taken me about 4 hours (on and off) to finish and I'm flagging. I hope I made my final point properly. I wanted to address specific points, but I can't remember them all now so I'm going to leave it for a bit. 

First off, you never have to apologize for writing lost posts: as one writer of long posts my take has always been, if others don't want to read it, they'll skip it and won't quote it. There are however chances many are enjoying the posts and reading them.

I will respond to this briefly, are we projecting too much onto Adolin? Quite probably. We are reading too much into his character: he is what we see. As such, I do think there isn't anything more to Adolin then what Brandon has written. He is a good, steady, normal guy who's had a crap childhood, but is really so earnest he pushed through it unscathed. There is hidden brutality or blood-thirst as others have mentioned, if anything Adolin, by the end of the book, has started to be more and more like Evi, not more and more like a barbarian or a hunter waiting for his prey. This is reading too much into the character and projecting into him, this is projecting thoughts of Adolin being more than meets the eyes this is projecting Sadeas is not an isolate case happening because of dire circumstances but the expression of a hidden dark Adolin. 

Adolin is exactly what he appears to be: yes he genuinely saved the prostitute, yes he genuinely cares about the people he meets. Yes, he has had failure, minor ones, but he isn't a guy who gets bogged on them, he moves on. Always. No matter what it is. The mask he wears is not authenticity, it is the blind faith he has towards his father if mask this can be called. He wants to please other people, this is true, but it doesn't dither him from his tasks.

He also absolutely is not a predator nor a hunter: he hates hunting nor does he have much in common with Snape. This is projecting into the character elements which aren't into the narrative. The narrative is explicit on the matter: Adolin is not a hunter, he is not evil nor does he have inclinations towards falling prey to Odium, he is exactly what we have read so far. 

So this was my grain of salt: the missing POV for Adolin didn't go missing to hide anything (like Renarin), they didn't go missing to foreshadow anything, the went missing because Brandon didn't think he needed to write them. 

[aemetha]

41 minutes ago, maxal said:

To be a sociopath Adolin would need to have absolutely no moral conscience: not feeling guilty over one murder is not enough.

Can I please just clarify, I used the term sociopathy as an adjective to describe a single instance of his behaviour. At no time did I say he was a sociopath, nor was it my intention to imply that, and I even went so far as to follow up by saying I believe he is not a sociopath. I am just not aware of another adjective that more aptly describes that particular instance of behaviour. I really would prefer if we didn't get hung up on that because it wasn't my intention and as far as I am aware nobody is actually arguing that he is a sociopath.

[maxal]

3 minutes ago, aemetha said:

Can I please just clarify, I used the term sociopathy as an adjective to describe a single instance of his behaviour. At no time did I say he was a sociopath, nor was it my intention to imply that, and I even went so far as to follow up by saying I believe he is not a sociopath. I am just not aware of another adjective that more aptly describes that particular instance of behaviour. I really would prefer if we didn't get hung up on that because it wasn't my intention and as far as I am aware nobody is actually arguing that he is a sociopath.

I just feel the term sociopathy is a very strong one which implies very radical behavior or to me it does. I also do not believe Adolin expressed sociopathy because he didn't feel remorse on killing Sadeas: this murder was one he felt he needed to do, not for pleasure, not for fun, but to keep the people he loves alive. As such, I don't think sociopathy applies here.

[aemetha]

Just now, maxal said:

As such, I don't think sociopathy applies here.

Okay, we can agree to disagree on that. I'm more talking about the conflating of the descriptor of a single instance of behaviour to a descriptor of a person which implies a pattern of behaviour that was never alluded to.

My case for his act being immoral (which is how I will describe it going forward) is thus:

Morality is a subjective cultural norm. It is clear that the murder of Sadeas violates that norm because of the need to conceal the act and the fear of the reaction to the act becoming public knowledge. If the act is immoral, then as a member of that culture the perpetrator of said act should feel remorse over it. Greater good and greater evil don't really factor into it, nor the individuals justifications made to themselves about the act - if they are acting in a manner contrary to the accepted standards of morality without contrition, they are, by definition, immoral in the view of the average member of that culture.

[DeployParachute]

So I've been focusing a lot lately on Shallan and Adolin, but I was doing some rereading and came across some text that I want to bring up concerning Kaladin and his decision making.

At the end of the book, when Kaladin is reflecting on things while also looking down upon our soon to be newlyweds, we see him performing an action during his contemplation.  The full scene:

Spoiler

  We can win, he thought.  But each victory scars us a little more.

  In his hand he rubbed a small stone with his thumb.  Down below, in an alleyway off the main thoroughfare, a woman with flowing red hair kissed a man in a ragged and ripped uniform.  Some people could celebrate despite the scars.  Kaladin accepted that.  He merely wished he knew how they did it.

  "Kaladin?" Syl said.  She wove around him as a ribbon of light.  "Don't feel bad.  The Words have to come in their own time.  You'll be all right."

  "I always am."

  He squinted down at Shallan and Adolin, and found that he couldn't be bitter.  He didn't feel resignation either.  Instead he felt ... agreement?

  "Oh, them," Syl said.  "Well, I know that you don't back down from fights.  You've lost the round, but-"

  "No," he said.  "Her choice is made.  You can see it."

  "I can?"

  "You should be able to."  He rubbed his finger on the rock  "I don't think I loved her, Syl.  I felt ... something.  A lightening of my burdens when I was near her.  She reminds me of someone."

  "Who?"

  He opened his palm, and she landed on it, forming into the shape of a young woman with flowing hair and dress.  She bent down, inspecting the rock in his palm, cooing over it.  Syl could still be shockingly innocent---wide-eyed and excited about the world.

  "That's a nice rock," she said, completely serious.

  "Thank you."

  "Where did you get it?"

  "I found it on the battlefield below.  If you get it wet it changes colors.  It looks brown, but with a little water, you can see the white, black, and grey."

  "Oooooh."

  He let her inspect it for a moment more.

Sanderson, B. (2017). Oathbringer (Kindle ed.). Ch 121: Ideals p1201

So, there is a lot going on in this very small scene.  But the thing I want to focus on is the decision that Kaladin is making here, and how it is very much symbolically tied to another decision he has made via the stone.

The last time in Oathbringer we saw him make a decision related to his romantic feelings towards someone, guess what was present?

Spoiler

  That day, Kaladin had been sitting on a stump, shirt off, sweating.  The evening was growing cold as the sun set, and he basked in the last warmth.  His spear resting across his lap, he toyed with a rock of white, brown, and black.  Alternating colors.

...<snipping for length>

  "Could you...not go?" he asked.

  She shook her head.

  "Maybe I could get a transfer?" he said.  "To the highprince's standing house guard?"

  "Would you do that?"

  "I..."

  No.  He wouldn't.

  Not while he carried that stone in his pocket, not while the memory of his brother dying was fresh in his mind.  Not while lighteyed highlords got boys killed in petty fights.

  "Oh, Kal," she whispered, then squeezed his arm.  "Maybe someday you'll learn how to be there for the living, not just for the dead."

Sanderson, B. (2017). Oathbringer (Kindle ed.). Ch 112: For the Living p1046-1048

So in the scene with Tarah, Kaladin is confronted with making a choice that he is not capable of making, because of the weight he is carrying around, symbolized by the rock that reminds him of his brother.  For him, at this point, it's not even a choice, because he is incapable of setting down the burden he has chosen.  I think that I'm safe in saying that most of us would agree that Tarah's last physical words to him are a good clue as to the thing that Kaladin has to accept as part of his next oath and progression for him.  He even seems to know what it is, later, and is unable to commit to it.  

I find it interesting that Brandon chose to tie these two scenes together with this symbolism.  In the scene concerning Shallan and Adolin, Kaladin is relieved that Shallan has seemingly made her choice, because it relieves him of the burden of having to make one himself.  He gets to keep carrying his rock.  In both scenes, Kaladin is confronted with a challenge to prioritizing his feelings for the living (in the form of women he loves), or to dwell on his past failures and the dead left in their wake.  Making the decision he did with Tarah was not right for his growth and acceptance of himself, and that scene is symbolically tied to him making the "decision" about Shallan and Adolin, which is also not right for his growth and personal acceptance. 

I find it interesting symmetry that both Shallan and Kaladin's progression (or their abrupt halting of it) is so very neatly tied up with romantic feelings.  Shallan allows Adolin to decide who she should be, and what she should do.  She thinks the choice is hers, while simultaneously forcing the opinions of the other facets of her personality to the back. She gets to stay right where she is, because facing those other facets of herself scare her, she doesn't want to move forward.  Similarly Kaladin refuses to make a choice, and instead finds comfort in giving up that choice to someone else, because it allows him to stay where he is.

He didn't feel resignation either.  Instead he felt ... agreement?

He feels agreement because this is also what he wants, to not make a decision, to not have to act on this, because he's afraid of stepping forward.  Contrast what he says in that chapter with what he says earlier in the book:

Spoiler

  She punched him lightly in the arm.  "It's good to see you smiling."

  "That was smiling?"

  "It was the Kaladin equivalent.  That scowl was almost jovial." She smiled at him.

  Something felt warm within him at being near her.  Something felt right.  It wasn't like with Laral, his boyhood crush.  Or even like with Tarah, his first real romance.  It was something different, and he couldn't define it.  He only knew he didn't want it to stop.  It pushed back the darkness.

Sanderson, B. (2017). Oathbringer (Kindle ed.). Ch 99: Reachers p932

I don't believe for a second that Kaladin could have some of the most pronounced and detailed feelings that we've seen from his POV yet here, and then turn around and wave those away as simply "I felt ...something.  A lightening of my burdens".  During the scene on the roof when Shadolin are making their passion for each other known, Kaladin is still trying to work out his feelings for her, and he decides, yet again, that they are less than what they are.  Not only because she is already "taken".  Not only because of his respect for her betrothed.  But because it allows him to continue to hide, to remain static, to do what he has always done.

Shallan and Kaladin are both making choices, or not making choices, that leave them in a static state, unable to progress further on their own respective paths of Radiancy.  And these choices are both wrapped up in denying the feelings they have for each other.  If that isn't an indication that they are not done, then I don't know what is.

You know, sometimes I wonder just how people who were happy with the romantic ending at the end of OB could NOT see this stuff.  Then I think, perhaps, Brandon is happy with this state of affairs, as it means he is doing something right, hiding it so well, that a large chunk of the readership are going to be primed and ready for his next big surprise for them.

...then again, it could also be I who is the dupe...