Awesomness Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 17 minutes ago, maxal said: As for my statement, it was meant to be ironic. Adolin is not a shining beacon of perfection but, as far as I can tell, it is the author's intend to write him as such, to present him as such and to use him as such. What more the character could be is likely to remain within the pages of this forum. Hello Maxal. Your love for Adolin is one of the cosmere unyielding forces, like Time or Highstorms! I see a lot of wishful thinking in yor post. I kind of think it is a lost cause, as Adolin is (specially after OB) definitely a side character with a POV. Like Navani, he is great and he gives a refreshing "normal" perspective. I don´t think we will see him grow, and that is the boring part. I wouldn´t like him to be reduced to comic release... Having an unchanging character in the dynamic world of SA is suspicious. And the scenes when we see him ostensibly avoiding responsibility in OB really unnerved me. I´d like to ask you what do you think about: - Adolin avoiding responsability from killing a highprince - Adolin avoiding responsability from becoming king In a different contect, I think I wouldn´t mind so much, but after reading Moash, Amaram talking about bad thing that weren´t their fault, Odium trying to tempt Dalinar into giving up his responsability for every sinned he commited while being the blackthorn.... I just can´t ignore it 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Subvisual Haze Posted December 7, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 Adolin is such a fascinating character because I'm not sure if Brandon accidentally wrote him as the 100% perfect boyfriend or if he's doing a really clever subversion about what people think they want from an ideal relationship partner vs. what a mature relationship entails. Adolin is like the product of a focus group working to synthesize the perfect "nice" boyfriend found in so many romantic comedies. He's a prince (but not the kind of Prince that has important duties which interfere with your homelife, the Disney kind of Prince) and never needs to worry about money or jobs. He's extremely good looking and fashionably dressed. He has a kind heart and makes instant friends with everyone. He constantly compliments you, calls you beautiful, says he's the lucky one in the relationship, and loves you just the way you are. His closest thing to a remaining character flaw (now that his classism is gone and his propensity for rapidly changing romantic partners seems completely abandoned) is that one time let himself be goaded (by threats to his loved ones!) into killing possibly the worst human being on the planet and then still felt bad about it afterwards. He's also not exceptionally bright. Not stupid by any means, but you never have to worry about him making you feel intellectually inferior. On a rather shallow level Adolin is the perfect ideal boyfriend. So what's missing? Adolin gives no signs that his relationship with Shallan can ever progress much beyond what they have right now. He'll never challenge her to better herself in any way, because he already thinks she's perfect and pretty much tells her so. He's supportive to the point of risking being an enabler (a huge problem with the current path Shallan's psyche is taking). If they ever have an argument, he'll probably just let her win (which will stop being cute very quickly). What do they actually talk about once they run out of compliments for each other and briefly touching on current events? Will Shallan start to resent Adolin for not being as intelligent and verbose as her, and then resent herself for looking down on Adolin in that way? I don't think they'll be miserable together, but their relationship seems built on such shallow foundations that I'm not sure it can grow and mature. Brandon gave a comment that Shallan's wit is partially based on Jane Austen characters. In hindsight I can definitely see that, barring the traumatic past her personality type is very much like a Jane Austen protagonist. The ideal matches in Jane Austen novels were partners, people who intellectually challenged you and were strongly driven by an internal moral code that complemented your own. Adolin is kind, supportive and and an all around wonderful human being, but he's no Mr. Darcy. There was this other very Mr. Darcy-like character who was brooding, witty, verbally fenced with Shallan for long strings of fast-paced dialogue, and was utterly driven by his internal moral code of right and wrong, but that's not who Shallan chose in the end. The question now becomes was Brandon just subverting expectations by having his Jane Austen protagonist chose the unexpected suitor, or will Shallan and Adolin's puppy love relationship get a harsh dose of reality in the near future? 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamstorm Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 6 hours ago, PhineasGage said: Go here: http://www.evidencebased.info/?page_id=30 and use password: Shard Wooooo!! I've been waiting for this! Please, please do one for OB too Here are some thoughts of mine: Lots of themes you mention carry through to OB: constant boots references (up to the pre-wedding scene); Syl continuing to push on Kaladin's emotions about Shallan; Adolin's protectiveness (totally didn't see that about Elhokar - good catch) even up to disembarking from Honor's Path; Kaladin's jealousy (also didn't see it that early - the inconsistencies with what he tells himself as excuses for being by Shallan, lol); Shallan's love of hats (Syl telling Kal he can give the hat she gets in Celebrant to Shallan bc she loves hate, which he says is true) I never thought about the "why "of Hoid being the carriage driver - that definitely calls that moment as significant, because Hoid doesn't show up for crem and giggles Couple points in the chasm I liked the - interact as people first, Radiants second - point; I never made that connection, but makes a lot of sense why the moment was needed prior to the public Radiant unveil We've talked about this... but the "adult" interpretation of the storm hitting in the chasms versus in the watching the world transform chapter... One thing which has always stood out to me about that sequence is how tactile they both are with each other. This is sort of in Shallan's nature (though I think a bit odd for her with someone she ostensibly dislikes) and not at all in Kaladin's. When he shoves her in the crack at the chasmfiend attack, I particularly thought it odd she was so grabby of him. Lots and lots of touching. (Renarin would hate it.) You mentioned the natural history vs. fine sculpture earlier in this thread, but I didn't get it until I saw it here. That's another pretty piece of symbolism. WoK Ch. 3 City of Bells: "She had thought long about her Calling. The obvious choice was her art, and she did so love sketching. But it was more than just the drawing that attracted her - it was the study, the questions raised by observation. [....] So she'd chosen natural history instead." WoR Ch. 70 From a Nightmare: "There was sort of a rugged handsomeness to the fellow. Like the beauty of a natural rock formation, as opposed to a fine sculpture like Adolin." What I particularly like about this is that she loves art, and she spend a lot of time debating which to choose, but in the end she went with natural history. This is really mirroring reality. I don't read that much into the death rattle; I feel like that's more about them being Radiants (people who survive when they should not a la the Diagram) than any K/S connection At the end of the Kaladin section, my first thought was that I had totally underestimated how much Kaladin was interested in Shallan! He's constantly telling himself otherwise and making excuses, so I guess I kinda believed him. Whoops. Couple questions: Carrying on what we talked about earlier, do you see any changes with Adolin being the whitespine? You compare Kaladin to whitespine (and chasmfiend), so not sure if any of your analysis (particularly with the menagerie) changes with the Adolin mindset. Does knowing the meaning behind Adolin's name (born unto light) change anything for you? That was awesome!! I'm incredibly impressed with your objectivity in presenting everything as well. I also think your possible conclusions have kind of come true if we replace "full betrothal" with "marriage", but book 4 will be the crucial one in the that regard. Thank you so much for sharing this! @mariapapadia welcome back aboard the SS Shalladin - it's kinda like Hotel California, you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave Where you're at now reminds me of where I was a couple of days ago before I had my sitting/standing revelation. You just realize that so much foreshadowing and symbolism and mirroring and page time, etc., was used to build up this connection between Kaladin and Shallan, and then we got.... nothing. This is how I reconciled it in my mind: A good author doesn't place all these hints in a story and then have it come to nothing. I choose to believe Brandon is a good author, and he has not given me any reason to believe otherwise (i.e. he doesn't drop hints and them have them lead to nothing.) Therefore, this isn't over. As an aside, I wrote this little blurb in a discussion with Phineas (which I'll spoiler both for length and because it spoils Mistborn Era 1) which shows how I think about misdirecting vs. misleading the reader as it pertains to this discussion: Spoiler I've been thinking on how writers "surprise" readers along these lines... it comes down to misdirection versus misleading. I'm going to take Vin's earring being a hemalurgic spike as the example. We are introduced to this as Vin's only heirloom from her family which is very special to her; it is "good". (I'm simplifying this to "good" vs "bad" for the sake of length.) As the trilogy progresses, we get hints that the earring is "bad" and the earring itself keeps coming up. Neither Vin nor anyone else ever tells us the earring is "bad", in fact it's the opposite - Vin continues to have a positive association with the earring. In the end, of course it's "bad" and tied to Ruin and a huge part of how Vin can even beat Ruin (by taking it out and taking up the mists.) Anyway, the fact Vin is telling us (through actions, thoughts and sometimes even things she says to others) that the earring is "good" is what I call misdirection; the author is telling us one thing explicitly while the opposite is actually the truth. Now, let's imagine a scenario where at the end of HoA (with the same build-up throughout the book) the earring means nothing - it's never been anything but a family heirloom, it's still "good". I call this misleading the reader, because the author kept emphasizing this earring and leaving hints and in the end it was.... nothing. So, basically, I think a good author misdirects the reader, but should never, or rarely, mislead the reader. I like thinking about this in context of a story which is finished and where we can easily see how Brandon laid the tracks on the plotline. The question is whether Brandon is misleading the reader here, as Adolin and Shallan is classic misdirection (what you see is not what you get) and abandoning the Kaladin foreshadowing is seriously misleading the reader. And in everything I've seen Brandon say about writing, and from what I've seen in his books, Brandon doesn't seem to be an author who misleads his readers; he is, however, constantly misdirecting his reader. 4 hours ago, Ailvara said: I had way too much time in the evening, so I wrote my supershort take on How It Should Have Ended. Feel free to mock my grammar or anything, this is therapeutical and purposefully Shalladin-less. http://archiveofourown.org/works/12935616 That was storming awesome. If only we got that Shallan! This is the Re-Sephir fighting Shallan! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxal Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Awesomness said: Hello Maxal. Your love for Adolin is one of the cosmere unyielding forces, like Time or Highstorms! I see a lot of wishful thinking in yor post. I kind of think it is a lost cause, as Adolin is (specially after OB) definitely a side character with a POV. Like Navani, he is great and he gives a refreshing "normal" perspective. I don´t think we will see him grow, and that is the boring part. I wouldn´t like him to be reduced to comic release... Having an unchanging character in the dynamic world of SA is suspicious. And the scenes when we see him ostensibly avoiding responsibility in OB really unnerved me. I´d like to ask you what do you think about: - Adolin avoiding responsability from killing a highprince - Adolin avoiding responsability from becoming king In a different contect, I think I wouldn´t mind so much, but after reading Moash, Amaram talking about bad thing that weren´t their fault, Odium trying to tempt Dalinar into giving up his responsability for every sinned he commited while being the blackthorn.... I just can´t ignore it My undying love for Adolin hasn't really done me much good: I am still stuck trying to make up story arcs for his character, within my head, to compensate for the ones we didn't get. And I am not really good at that. My post wasn't meant to be wishful thinking, if you read carefully, it was meant to warn others from having too much wishful thinking. I was seeing a lot of it in this thread which is why I wrote it. I definitely agree with you OB really shrinks Adolin down to a side character of some importance, but a static character. This is basically what I am broaching within my other post: the fact it seems obvious to me Brandon's intend, with Adolin, is to use him as a steady normal guy to offer comical relief when needed and reliability when also needed. He's not meant to struggle, he is not a character which will struggle or fail: he'll just always do his best at everything life throws at him and he won't mind things no matter what they are. He is meant to be the unchanging character in a cast which keeps changing. And that's a terrible waste of a character if anyone asks for my opinion. I don't find characters use in such fashion, even characters I don't love as much as Adolin, interesting. It is a ploy I hate when authors are using it, tossing it a posse who does nothing but fill the hole left by the other character. You need a guy to take over? You have Adolin. You need someone to win a battle because your protagonist is too busy having an existence crisis? You've got Adolin. So about your questions... My take is Adolin is avoiding responsibility for killing a Highprince because this Highprince threatened his father. It all comes back to Dalinar whom, to Adolin's eyes, can do not wrong. Dalinar is God to Adolin and, as such, he cannot take other people may not see him as God. Therefore, Adolin not taking responsibility for murdering Sadeas is not a sign of sociopathy, but a sign of him thinking he is just as justified in killing Sadeas as he would be in killing an enemy soldier on a battlefield. The man attacked Dalinar. Period. To Adolin nothing else matters. My take on Adolin not wanting to be king is him just him asserting himself next to Dalinar. He never wanted to be king. I don't think he is running away from his responsibility, I think he is saying: "I will not take everything you throw at me just because it come from you.". Ideally, this could lead to a rift in between Adolin and Dalinar, but seeing how Brandon handled Adolin, I wouldn't bet a great deal lots of eggs on it. All in all, I don't think these elements are signs of Adolin going down an "evil" path. Odium festered on Amaram feeling guilty and not wanting this guilt: he did not want to feel it, he want someone else to be responsible for his actions. Adolin isn't within the same situation. He has no guilt. He owns his actions. He doesn't want anyone to take them away from him. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeployParachute Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, maxal said: Adolin is not evil: he is a shinning beacon of perfection. He is not a whitespine in dormancy waiting to strike: he is not the Blackthorn. He's just a guy who will protect the father he cannot see in any other light than a glorious one against all threads and will never bat an eye at it, because he will always feel he needs to do those things. He has no guilt and without guilt, Odium has NO hold. Adolin is just about the farther away from Odium's character we currently has: he is 100% assuming. What a well written post in its entirety, and thanks for writing it. I want to focus on what you wrote above: now I don't know if writing Oathbringer will take Dalinar the full year of the time gap that is planned, but don't you think it is possible for Adolin to have a severe negative reaction to what Dalinar did to his mother at the very least? Something? #iwannabelieve Edited December 7, 2017 by DeployParachute 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) So, despite of what I actually said, I've been reading @PhineasGages essay last night, because I was just too curious (thank you for keeping me awake, Phin and I hope you are okay with me quoting these things. It is your work after all.) And there were a few things, that immediately sprung to my eye, while reading: When Shallan returns from the chasms, she forces Adolin into a kiss. Now. This is the exact wording: forces. Which is a strange word to use in the context of romance. Quote Now, this again shows how Shallan is in the driving seat of the relationship – being the one to push the physical aspect of their relationship rather than waiting for Adolin. I personally feel this is a little strange – surely Shallan doesn’t need to “force” Adolin? The language seems a little violent, and I am sure she could have coaxed him rather than forcing him. I know he doesn’t object fully, and “melts” into it pretty quickly. [...] This whole scene saddens me slightly, because I feel that here, more than any other, the relationship between Adolin and Shallan is forced. Neither completely understands the other and both attempt (with relative degrees of success) to “force” the other into something they do not wish to do – or at least did not consider to be right at this time. Maybe I'm reading too much in this, but I'm seeing parallels to Shallan's decision at the end of Oathbringer. Adolin has (rightful) doubts of his place beside Shallan and voices those concerns. Shallan bursts into a tirade and it ends with her pulling Adolin towards her and kissing him. See, forcing. In that whole scene, never does Adolin take the initiative, even after Shallan made her intention to stay with him clear. Isn't that a bit weird? I think, that he is still doubtful, but Shallan doesn't even listen to his worries. Until he finally gives up. Another thing is, that when she tells Adolin, that she chose him, she doesn't tell him, why she chose him, but rather, why she didn't choose Kaladin! She is forcing/convincing herself to this. Same goes for the rush of the wedding. We don't have it in direct speech, but the way Shallan's inner monologue is worded, it can be interpreted, that she also was the driving factor there, because... well, she wanted to sleep with Adolin. Quote It was finally time. [...] Well, that was good. Shallan wouldn't want to got too far in a relationship without oaths, and storms, even one week was starting to sound like an eternity. I don't know. It all seems painfully rushed and forced. Just like it always has felt. Shallan always set the pace and Adolin never really had a say in it. I don't blame him, to be honest. As a guy, I'd probably take the opportunity too, if I was interested in Shallan, but it doesn't bode well for their relationship dynamic. It is extremely one-sided. 5 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said: Adolin gives no signs that his relationship with Shallan can ever progress much beyond what they have right now. He'll never challenge her to better herself in any way, because he already thinks she's perfect and pretty much tells her so. He's supportive to the point of risking being an enabler (a huge problem with the current path Shallan's psyche is taking). If they ever have an argument, he'll probably just let her win (which will stop being cute very quickly). Subvisual Haze put in very succintly here. Adolin has a soft spot for Shallan and I just don't see him contradict her in anything. If he does bring up the courage, she quickly reassures him, that everything is okay and that he needn't be worrying. She couldn't pull that rust with Kaladin. --- Another thing, that has been bugging me is, that there was quite a lot of talk about how Kaladin and Shallan only have sexual attraction, but nothing more substantial, while Adolin and Shallan actually understand each other. I, and bear with me here please, think, that it actually is the other way around. There is one pivotal mirror, that I've only just now seen. The deep look in the eyes. Kaladin: Quote He stopped in the chasm. She turned and looked to him. "The crushing guilt," she said, "of being powerless. Of wishing they'd hurt you instead of those around you. Of screaming and scrambling and hating as those you love are ruined, popped like a boil. And you have to watch their joy seeping away while you can't do anything. They break the ones you love, and not you. And you plead. Can't you just beat me instead?" "Yes," he whispered. Shallan nodded, holding his eyes. "Yes. It would be nice if nobody in the world knew of those things, Kaladin Stormblessed. I agree. With everything I have." He saw it in her eyes. The anguish, that frustration. The terrible nothing that clawed inside and sought to smother her. She knew. It was there, inside. She had been broken. Then she smiled. Oh, storms. She smiled anyway. It was the single most beautiful thing he'd seen in his entire life. (I swear, this scene brings me back to tears every time.) Adolin: Quote Adolin searched her eyes. She bled from one, to the other, and back. A moment of Veil. A moment of Radiant. Shallan peeking through- Adolin's hand tightened around her own. Shallan's breath caught. There, she thought. That's the one. That's the one I am. He knows. Now, we have been wondering, how he did it, but we know have had Sanderson confirm, that it has something to do with visual cues and Lightweaving. I suspect eye color changes. (as in "bleeding" from one color to the next) And there we have the difference. When Adolin searched Shallan's eyes, he didn't look beneath the surface. He stayed on that. Kaladin? He saw what was beneath that. He looked deeper and he didn't just see an eye color change or something, but her feelings. They say that the eyes are the windows to the soul. Kaladin saw Shallan's soul - that broken mess. Adolin didn't. And this physical vs. spiritual thing pulls through the whole of their relationships. When Shallan thinks of Adolin, she basically only thinks of his hair and beautiful grin and strong strong arms, etc. She says different things. She praises him for his kindness and nobleness, but that is something, that basically everyone praises about Adolin. What she thinks is, that he is actually kind of simple-minded and bland, the only positive thing she thinks about him is that he is physically attractive. Well, and the kicker is, that Shallan wants to quickly marry to get sexually active. At least, that is what is implied. Honestly? If I were to compare Shallan's relationship with something out of our modern society. I'd call it good friends with benefits (approved by the Holy Vorin Church). She feels comfortable in his arms, thinks he's hot and wants to have sex with him, but is there anything deeper? No. No, I don't think so. When Shallan thinks of Kaladin, well, she thinks about: Quote It didn’t matter that he wasn’t brilliant or, or whatever else Kaladin was. She couldn’t even define it. So there. Passionate, with an intense smouldering resolve. A leashed anger that he used because he had dominated it. And a certain tempting arrogance. Not the haughty pride of a highlord, instead the secure stable sense of determination that whispered that no matter who you were, or what you did, you could not hurt him, could not change him. He was, as the wind and rocks were. This is much, much deeper than just physical attraction. She describes Kaladin really well. She got him. After a few hours together in the chasm. This description of him describes the way he feels, not just how he always looks good. Same goes for Kaladin. When he looks at Shallan he often thinks about, what she might be thinking now. Or when this thing with the safehand revealing is, he doesn't dwell on the physical scandal of the situation, but rather immediately gets what she was trying to do with it. When he looks at her in flight, sure, he does notice her grace and beauty, but also that she is happy (and that he'd very much like to keep her that way by showing her how to really fly). When she is full of fear after the encounter with Ashertmarn, he knows exactly what he needs to do to calm her - make a punny joke. When she beings to talk about her theory regarding those mandras in Shadesmar, he immediately catches, when she grows excited. That is not to say, that there are no indicators of physical attraction between Kaladin and Shallan, but even there is a tiny, but important difference. Adolin and Shallan need one of them to make the first step for physical and eye contact. With Kaladin and Shallan, this comes naturally. Once again, I'll refer to Phin's essay: This is the second meeting between Kaladin and Shallan after the boots scene. Quote Shallan is somewhat distressed as she realises Kaladin may not let her in to see Dalinar and Navani – even when she produces the spanreed communication. As he turns away she takes his arm – the first of two significant examples of her doing this, and tries to reason with him. Of course they start arguing. In the audiobook Shallan takes Kaladin’s arm first at 18:35:58. They then proceed to have an argument where they both make somewhat insulting comments to each other and they both lose their tempers. Kaladin finally shakes of her hand at 18:38:46. That’s nearly 3 minutes of contact which didn’t need to occur [...] In addition to this, the eye contact between them lasts most of this time – with Kaladin only breaking it briefly to glare at some of the guards who laugh at her comments. The end of the argument occurs really when she realises that room had gone silent – which is quite a feat given how many people are in there (remember that the room was “clogged”). The implication is that Kaladin also notices the silence and it might be this that prompts him to take her message to Dalinar – simply to overcome the possible embarrassment associated with the event. What is this? They hardly know each other and have physical contact and long eye contact. Like I said, it comes naturally. Another thing is how she immediately starts to call Kaladin by his name, even if it wasn't necessary for the conversation. There are multiple examples of this down in the chasms: Quote And then we get yet more physical contact. Shallan goes to him and takes his arm, subconsciously in fact, because she had meant to take her satchel. Her narrative says it is to get his attention, which doesn’t really make sense as they are in the middle of a conversation, and completely alone. They again make eye contact for a long time – 30 seconds of text according to the audiobook and Shallan is holding his arm for all that time. Quote Shallan pulls Kaladin into the cubby using Stormlight and they hold together – arms wrapped round each other – as much for emotional security as physical safety. The physicality of their contact is highlighted by Kaladin’s narrative comment of “She was a warmth in his arms”. And suggests that they are holding each other, not simply as a means of safety but almost as lovers – in fact Kaladin thinks something very similar to this when he compares holding Shallan to holding Tarah. Once again, this stuff all comes naturally to them. Neither of them forces the other to do this. Kaladin and Shallan have much more spiritual compatibility, in addition to their physical attraction, which isn't even remotely forced, but completely natural. Whew, that has been a long one, but I felt like I needed to write this down. Edited December 7, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insert_anagram_here Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) @SLNC Again you have eloquently described in detail everything I think and feel about the ASK thing. The bits from the chasm scenes you have quoted also bring me to tears every storming time and I base the whole validity of the Shalladin ship upon those scenes. For me, nothing else Sanderson has ever written was so romantically intense and infused with meaningful existential connection. I refuse to accept it is not intentional. So... @PhineasGage I've already sent you a PM regarding the first 13% bit of the essay. Sorry, I'm still in the process of reading the whole of it. But I'd like to share one part of that said feedback here, since I wasn't part of the forums until after OB's release. Quote I have to say that before the chasm scene I never considered their relationship romantic. I justified everything as part of friendly banter, two very interesting people having a go at each other, and probably instinctively raising interest in one another because they (are) both Radiants. Like two power infused stones resonating with one another. Also, considering the whole duration of three books, I think they both felt attraction for one another but Kaladin had deeper feelings for her than she felt for him. We are introduced with him hating lighteyes because they caused all the suffering in his life but along she came and made an impact and broke his personal beliefs. Her existence proved to him that not all lighteyes are worth hatred. Of course the 'darkness inside' is hatred, right? That's what Odium is. I was trying to dissect the evidence in @PhineasGage 's essay into levels of intimacy in order to understand exactly how far both relationships go based on the actions between the involved characters and not the outcome of the story:1. interest 2. attraction 3. emotional connection 4. influence (be influenced by)5. romantic emotions ( Have in mind I have no background knowledge on psychology or human behavior, so if you think these are wrong, please fell free to correct me. ) I think we can all agree that the chasms scenes are proof that Shallan and Kaladin have reached the point of 'emotional connection' towards one another But as I've said in my quote above, I think that Kaladin's feelings towards Shallan have moved beyond that, he is now being influenced by her. I think the exact turning point in the books is in the chasms as well "Oh, storms. She smiled anyway." and he himself rationalizes those feelings as "I felt . . . something. A lightening of my burdens when I was near her. " She now influences him to rethink his attitude towards lighteyes. Now on Shallan's side, I think she was on the brink of becoming influenced by him after the end of the Battle of Thaylen Field, but was so scared of the prospect that her betrothal to Adolin was not justified, that she instead forced herself to be 'influenced' by Adolin. He now influences her as to who the 'real' Shallan is. Lastly, I'm not even sure how far Adolin's feelings towards Shallan are at the moment. Attraction maybe? Okay okay, let's say emotional connection. But Influence? Would you say that he stopped feeling guilty for killing Sadeas because of her? Is that a good influence? Edited December 7, 2017 by insert_anagram_here 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) 58 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said: Again you have eloquently described in detail everything I think and feel about the ASK thing. The bits from the chasm scenes you have quoted also bring me to tears every storming time and I base the whole validity of the Shalladin ship upon those scenes. For me, nothing else Sanderson has ever written was so romantically intense and infused with meaningful existential connection. I refuse to accept it is not intentional. Yes... Adolin and Shallan are trying to get this romantic stuff into it ("without you I fade"), but they miserably fail. They do what they think is romantic, but it doesn't have any substance. It feels forced, especially because I don't get the feeling of any emotional connection to Adolin on Shallan's side, just purely sexual. Not natural like what happened in the chasms. Kaladin and Shallan had no intention of building an emotional connection, but they did. 58 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said: Lastly, I'm not even sure how far Adolin's feelings towards Shallan are at the moment. Attraction maybe? Okay okay, let's say emotional connection. But Influence? Would you say that he stopped feeling guilty for killing Sadeas because of her? Is that a good influence? Adolin is still a bit of an enigma for me... I do think, he's primarily on the attraction stage (if we use your scale), because also on his side, I don't see any emotional connection to Shallan. A lot of the things he does, he does, because he thinks they are the things that are expected (e.g. being overprotective). Also, in his viewpoints, I never really sensed a desire to get emotionally intimate with her. Now that I think about it... I never really had that feeling ever, when we had an Adolin viewpoint. I think, @PhineasGage put it perfectly a few pages back. Adolin is in love with the idea of being in love and thus clings to Shallan, because he is afraid to lose her in light of his past issues with women. Despite of all his doubts, that Shallan flattened with a metaphoric steamroller. Edited December 7, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ailvara Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 10 hours ago, maxal said: I understand the desire to refuse to believe this may be it, but I do think this is reality, hence I am saying we are walking on the line in between the author's intends and readers expectations. Adolin could be so much more into this story, but what we have seen is likely what we'll get within future books unless Brandon makes a 180 and takes a very firm commitment to write more of Adolin. I have however waited 4 years for him to do so: he didn't. His intends are different and since this is his story, well there is nothing I can do about it but wish he had changed his mind. Valid point. However, we have three years of waiting ahead of us, so we might as well live the story the way we want during this time and strategically crush our expectations a few months before SA4. 9 hours ago, maxal said: I couldn't disagree more with your statement on Adolin being a sociopath: sociopathy requires one to have no moral conscience and a lack of social responsibility. Yes, Adolin doesn't feel remorse over killing Sadeas, but this does not make him a sociopath: Dalinar doesn't feel remorse over the soldiers he killed during his blood rage either. Adolin shows social conscience on various other instances such as when he saves the boy, when he cares for other human beings, worst when Adolin killed Sadeas, he did it for Dalinar. 1 9 hours ago, maxal said: On Adolin psych 101, he will NOT tolerate any harm be it physical or psychological or theoretical done to his mighty glorious father no matter what it may be. As soon as Dalinar's safety, well-being, grandness and how others are viewing Dalinar are concerned, Adolin will do ANYTHING to prevent it from being stained. This is exactly the unhealthy relationship I wanted OB to focus some on by having Adolin being the focus on it and not Dalinar. I wouldn't say he is a sociopath either. On the contrary, he does what many people would do given the same circumstances. However, I have a question for you. The way Moash wants justice for his grandparents and to free Alethkar of a bad king - how different is it really from what Adolin does to Sadeas? On the level of outcomes, these are both valid choices (at least at first - until you consider all the mess with Amaram, Sadeas troops and the Thrill) - they just stand in opposition to the "journey before destination" moral implications. In the reality of SA - end of the world, hard decisions and all that jazz - being a good person is not always about not being a complete baddie. Sometimes it is about being exceptionally strong in unfair situations, that would make an evil person from an average, or even above-average one (even paladin-Kaladin is so close to falling down this path after all). So, if Adolin turns evil, I wouldn't see it as a manifestation of his overwhelming internal darkness, but a consequence of facing too many challenges and moral confusion, that wouldn't end well for many normal, good people. As for the second part, I really hope, that this relationship is going to backfire. Dalinar hasn't had enough problems yet, has he? While Adolin feels no guilt partly because of his loyalty, I can completely see him starting to question it after he learns of Dalinar and Evi. And then, to question himself and the murder as a natural consequence. Usually, I would expect to see the seeds of conflicts for the next book more clearly at the end of the preceding one. However, Brandon seems to make the books more contained - I'm talking especially about Mistborn1-Mitsborn2 and Shallan's fracturing being nonexistent in WoR, though influenced by it. 6 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said: Brandon gave a comment that Shallan's wit is partially based on Jane Austen characters. In hindsight I can definitely see that, barring the traumatic past her personality type is very much like a Jane Austen protagonist. The ideal matches in Jane Austen novels were partners, people who intellectually challenged you and were strongly driven by an internal moral code that complemented your own. Adolin is kind, supportive and and an all around wonderful human being, but he's no Mr. Darcy. There was this other very Mr. Darcy-like character who was brooding, witty, verbally fenced with Shallan for long strings of fast-paced dialogue, and was utterly driven by his internal moral code of right and wrong, but that's not who Shallan chose in the end. The question now becomes was Brandon just subverting expectations by having his Jane Austen protagonist chose the unexpected suitor, or will Shallan and Adolin's puppy love relationship get a harsh dose of reality in the near future? 7 Adolin is SO Mr Bingley (Wickham has some hints as well, but that would be unfair). We need a Jane. The Darcy part breaks my heart. 52 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said: @SLNC Again you have eloquently described in detail everything I think and feel about the ASK thing. The bits from the chasm scenes you have quoted also bring me to tears every storming time and I base the whole validity of the Shalladin ship upon those scenes. For me, nothing else Sanderson has ever written was so romantically intense and infused with meaningful existential connection. I refuse to accept it is not intentional. 1 So that makes at least three of us. I'm currently having trouble recalling reading anything more romantically intense. 6 hours ago, maxal said: My undying love for Adolin hasn't really done me much good: I am still stuck trying to make up story arcs for his character, within my head, to compensate for the ones we didn't get. And I am not really good at that. Aaand, that makes at least two of us (my focus isn't Adolin, but I'm always happy to find validation for my daydreaming). 6 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: That was storming awesome. If only we got that Shallan! This is the Re-Sephir fighting Shallan! Thank you, I'm so glad you liked it!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Ize19 Posted December 7, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 Hello Sharders! First time poster here, I found this forum back when WoR was published, lurked for a while, then fell away while waiting for OB. When OB was published, I immediately came back, to see what you all had to say. This thread has not disappointed in the slightest, I've been blown away by the analysis and discussion I've found on here. I've been in favor of Shalladin since the first time they met, but I admit I'd accepted that the triangle was over, and Shadolin was canon, upon completing the book. Welp, you guys have convinced me to rejoin the good ship Shalladin, so please forgive my lack of faith! @PhineasGage, that was an incredible essay, I really appreciated your in depth analysis, and look forward to seeing your OB update. One thing your section on Shadolin brought to mind was Sanderson's portrayal of love as a choice. A lot of Shadolin shippers have brought up this perspective of his, and believe it supports their ship. I believe that the scene of Shallan forcing the kiss after the Chasm, and, as @SLNC pointed out, forcing, or at least rushing the marriage, shows the flaw in this reasoning. Love may be a choice, but it has to be a choice towards someone. Even in the arranged marriages that are brought up so often, nobody chooses to go through with it to run away from someone else. And in the SA, we know Navani chose Gavinar because she was running from her feelings for Dalinar, and we saw how that turned out. Let's look at those "Shadolin" scenes again. In the post-chasm scene, Shallan has obviously just shared an incredibly romantic experience with Kaladin. But, as we've been reminded throughout WoR, she needs to be with Adolin, for a variety of practical and compelling reasons. So what does she do? She forces (Sanderson's word, not mine) a passionate kiss on him, clearly trying to increase her feelings for Adolin again. And, when he holds her, she uses the opportunity to minimize the importance of Kaladin holding her all night, saying that it felt "nice to be held," as if that was the only reason she'd enjoyed her night with him. And I believe the same thing is going on when she "chooses" Adolin at the end of OB. She's not choosing to love him, she's instead choosing to be the "Shallan" that is with Adolin. So long as her alts we're torn, she stayed in limbo, as soon as they agree on Kaladin, she makes a snap judgment away from him, and when Adolin tries to break up, she doesn't just convince him to stay together, but to get married! It's the same over compensation as the WoR scene, and again it seems to be a decision made for the purpose of convincing herself, rather than the result of an organic desire to be with Adolin. Anyway, that was my takeaway from this incredible thread so far, thanks so much you guys, keep up the great work! 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insert_anagram_here Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, SLNC said: Adolin is still a bit of an enigma for me... I do think, he's primarily on the attraction stage (if we use your scale), because also on his side, I don't see any emotional connection to Shallan. A lot of the things he does, he does, because he thinks they are the things that are expected (e.g. being overprotective). Also, in his viewpoints, I never really sensed a desire to get emotionally intimate with her. Now that I think about it... I never really had that feeling ever, when we had an Adolin viewpoint. I think, @PhineasGage put it perfectly a few pages back. Adolin is in love with the idea of being in love and thus clings to Shallan, because he is afraid to lose her in light of his past issues with women. Despite of all his doubts, that Shallan flattened with a metaphoric steamroller. I like Adolin but I still can't see what part of Shallan attracts him so much, apart from the fact that she is an oddity to him. Based on what kind of person Dalinar was as a father, how can that not affect you on an existential level? I think he has always lived in his father's shadow. The fact that he appears as a personification of Prince Charming isn't coincidental; it's exactly what he has been trying to do his whole life. Always striving to be the hero that is both an honorable noble and a royal warrior. So, to me, all the good things he does (jumping in battle without regards to his safety, standing up for the people beneath his social status) are done for the wrong reasons. He does them to fit that image. (Dressing up as a royal and being a womanizer, for me, are proof that he cares about his image a lot. ) Even his presumable guilt for Sadeas' murder disappears, when everyone else says 'it's okay'. He didn't really have real guilt for the act of murder, he didn't feel it was wrong, but he feared mostly how other people will recognize him as a monster instead of a hero. It was just fear of losing that Prince Charming image. So after the plot bombs explode that his father isn't the hero he always thought he was, but a mass murder that even killed his own mother, I think that will affect him on an existential level. Because 'Dalinar is a hero' was what he based the facade he made of himself. 7 minutes ago, Ize19 said: So long as her alts we're torn, she stayed in limbo, as soon as they agree on Kaladin, she makes a snap judgment away from him, and when Adolin tries to break up, she doesn't just convince him to stay together, but to get married! Welcome @Ize19! And I agree completely with you on this point. I've even raised it in this thread around ...20 pages back... actually. Here is the bit that made her become 'determined': Quote "We need to approach this from a logical position,” Radiant said. “We’ve been dancing around a decision for months, ever since those days we spent in the chasms with Stormblessed. I’ve begun to consider that a relationship between two Knights Radiant is likely to accomplish a more equitable union.” Edited December 7, 2017 by insert_anagram_here 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said: So after the plot bombs explode that his father isn't the hero he always thought he was, but a mass murder that even killed his own mother, I think that will affect him on an existential level. Because 'Dalinar is a hero' was what he based the facade he made of himself. It would make sense... Maybe that Prince Charming image is his cage... Going back to the "whitespine uncaged" thing. I can't help but think, that there is something more... primal and blackthorn-y whitespine-y beneath his mask. 5 hours ago, Ize19 said: And I believe the same thing is going on when she "chooses" Adolin at the end of OB. She's not choosing to love him, she's instead choosing to be the "Shallan" that is with Adolin. So long as her alts we're torn, she stayed in limbo, as soon as they agree on Kaladin, she makes a snap judgment away from him, and when Adolin tries to break up, she doesn't just convince him to stay together, but to get married! It's the same over compensation as the WoR scene, and again it seems to be a decision made for the purpose of convincing herself, rather than the result of an organic desire to be with Adolin. Exactly. The pivotal point she tells Adolin is not why she chooses him, but rather why she doesn't choose Kaladin. (Because apparently Kaladin is encouraging her to hide herself away, which is just a gross extrapolation of what he actually said, that "whatever she is doing seems to work".) And she tells it as much for herself as she tells it seemingly for him. It is all about convincing herself and we know how good she is with that. Welcome by the way! Edited December 7, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insert_anagram_here Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 18 minutes ago, SLNC said: 33 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said: So after the plot bombs explode that his father isn't the hero he always thought he was, but a mass murder that even killed his own mother, I think that will affect him on an existential level. Because 'Dalinar is a hero' was what he based the facade he made of himself. It would make sense... Maybe that Prince Charming image is his cage... Going back to the "whitespine uncaged" thing. I can't help but think, that there is something more... primal and blackthorn-y beneath his mask. Yeah, maybe the facade is his cage, but I don't want to believe that anyone's true self is dark. I don't want to see anyone being charged with an evil predisposition just because 'it's in his blood'. That's a logical fallacy that shouldn't exist, because simply you can't blame children for their parents actions. I want to believe every person is primarily good inside, they just make the wrong choices in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said: Yeah, maybe the facade is his cage, but I don't want to believe that anyone's true self is dark. I don't want to see anyone being charged with an evil predisposition just because 'it's in his blood'. That's a logical fallacy that shouldn't exist, because simply you can't blame children for their parents actions. I want to believe every person is primarily good inside, they just make the wrong choices in life. I was more referring to primal brutality. Doesn't have to be that ominous darkness everyone is constantly talking about. Maybe I should have stayed at whitespine. Edited December 7, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
insert_anagram_here Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 minute ago, SLNC said: I was more referring to primal brutality. Doesn't have to be that ominous darkness everyone is constantly talking about. I think we all have that same primal brutality inside us like Adolin. That desire for violence and gore is part of our survival instinct as animals. The difference lies on (a) how you keep that side of you contained. Do you channel it into another direction? Do you delude it in drink or drugs? Or do you smother it down inside? (b) why do you keep that side of you contained. Is it a moral code? Is it fear of your image? Or to protect your loved ones from yourself? Frankly, I can't tell how Adolin would react. Either I haven't been paying enough attention or it remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 minute ago, insert_anagram_here said: Frankly, I can't tell how Adolin would react. True. All I know is that there is something in there, that comes out when he snaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesomness Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 1 hour ago, Ize19 said: And, when he holds her, she uses the opportunity to minimize the importance of Kaladin holding her all night, saying that it felt "nice to be held," as if that was the only reason she'd enjoyed her night with him. Hello Ize, welcome! Congratulations (and thanks) for reading our awesome thread! You blew my mind with this little bit! More hints, more hints Seem´s like we have enough crew to repair our sinking ship and keep on sailing I´m still reading Phineas´s essay, so I´ll comment on this later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) I'm still getting the vibe, that the A/S/K triangular thing is supposed to be a mimicry of the Dalinar/Evi/Navani thing. I don't want to recite everything @DimChatz said, so I'll just link it. 2 hours ago, Ize19 said: Love may be a choice, but it has to be a choice towards someone. Even in the arranged marriages that are brought up so often, nobody chooses to go through with it to run away from someone else. And in the SA, we know Navani chose Gavinar because she was running from her feelings for Dalinar, and we saw how that turned out. You could also say, that Dalinar/Shallan is purposefully gaining distance from Navani/Kaladin, when he/she accepts the arranged betrothal to Evi/Adolin. This would fit the D/E/N angle. Navani didn't choose Dalinar, because she found him frightening. I don't think, she was running away from her feelings, because she did love Gavilar at the beginning, but they started to grow apart at the end. While Shallan shortly thinks the same about Kaladin, she soon realizes, that he is not exactly frightening, but passionate, while having his passion on a "leash" and having mastered it "through determination". Edited December 7, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vissy Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 10 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said: Adolin is such a fascinating character because I'm not sure if Brandon accidentally wrote him as the 100% perfect boyfriend or if he's doing a really clever subversion about what people think they want from an ideal relationship partner vs. what a mature relationship entails. Adolin is like the product of a focus group working to synthesize the perfect "nice" boyfriend found in so many romantic comedies. He's a prince (but not the kind of Prince that has important duties which interfere with your homelife, the Disney kind of Prince) and never needs to worry about money or jobs. He's extremely good looking and fashionably dressed. He has a kind heart and makes instant friends with everyone. He constantly compliments you, calls you beautiful, says he's the lucky one in the relationship, and loves you just the way you are. His closest thing to a remaining character flaw (now that his classism is gone and his propensity for rapidly changing romantic partners seems completely abandoned) is that one time let himself be goaded (by threats to his loved ones!) into killing possibly the worst human being on the planet and then still felt bad about it afterwards. He's also not exceptionally bright. Not stupid by any means, but you never have to worry about him making you feel intellectually inferior. On a rather shallow level Adolin is the perfect ideal boyfriend. So what's missing? Adolin gives no signs that his relationship with Shallan can ever progress much beyond what they have right now. He'll never challenge her to better herself in any way, because he already thinks she's perfect and pretty much tells her so. He's supportive to the point of risking being an enabler (a huge problem with the current path Shallan's psyche is taking). If they ever have an argument, he'll probably just let her win (which will stop being cute very quickly). What do they actually talk about once they run out of compliments for each other and briefly touching on current events? Will Shallan start to resent Adolin for not being as intelligent and verbose as her, and then resent herself for looking down on Adolin in that way? I don't think they'll be miserable together, but their relationship seems built on such shallow foundations that I'm not sure it can grow and mature. Brandon gave a comment that Shallan's wit is partially based on Jane Austen characters. In hindsight I can definitely see that, barring the traumatic past her personality type is very much like a Jane Austen protagonist. The ideal matches in Jane Austen novels were partners, people who intellectually challenged you and were strongly driven by an internal moral code that complemented your own. Adolin is kind, supportive and and an all around wonderful human being, but he's no Mr. Darcy. There was this other very Mr. Darcy-like character who was brooding, witty, verbally fenced with Shallan for long strings of fast-paced dialogue, and was utterly driven by his internal moral code of right and wrong, but that's not who Shallan chose in the end. The question now becomes was Brandon just subverting expectations by having his Jane Austen protagonist chose the unexpected suitor, or will Shallan and Adolin's puppy love relationship get a harsh dose of reality in the near future? Holy rust, I had resigned myself to Shadolin but... you convinced me. Shalladin is still a distinct possibility. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamstorm Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Ize19 said: And I believe the same thing is going on when she "chooses" Adolin at the end of OB. She's not choosing to love him, she's instead choosing to be the "Shallan" that is with Adolin. So long as her alts we're torn, she stayed in limbo, as soon as they agree on Kaladin, she makes a snap judgment away from him, and when Adolin tries to break up, she doesn't just convince him to stay together, but to get married! It's the same over compensation as the WoR scene, and again it seems to be a decision made for the purpose of convincing herself, rather than the result of an organic desire to be with Adolin. Hi! Welcome to our thread! I love this point above and it wasn't something I'd picked up on before. To take the part in bold a little bit further in the context of Kaladin as a "man of passion". @PhineasGage wrote the following in her essay comparing how Shallan describes Kaladin in line with how she describes her father (bold mine): Quote She also feels a “shiver” run down her spine, but I don’t think it is unpleasant – she acknowledges his intensity again and describes him as a “man of passion”. [.....] As a point, the only other time we hear Shallan use the word “passion”, she describes her father, who she described as “a man of passion and virtue. Just never at the same time”. Note the passion description continues throughout OB, e.g. noting Kaladin "had to be strict with himself to contain his passion" and drawing "passionate eyes" in her sketch instead of notetaking for Jasnah (OB Ch. 39 Notes); and "all that could fade before Kaladin's passion" and Kaladin is "like a wild spren of passion trapped by the oaths and codes" on Honor's Path ((OB Ch. 108 Honor's Path). Consider this in context of the WoK annotation @mariapapadia noted earlier (bold mine): Quote The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two’s flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.” Shallan’s father has an infamous temper; it’s buried deep within her as well. If she’d been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin. It is also part of why both attract a certain type of spren… https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-way-of-kings-chapter-8/ So, Brandon sees the "real" Shallan as one with flaring passion that is buried inside her. I think it's strongly implied that he sees this passion as a character development end point; indeed it is definitely something he is keeping in mind as he develops Shallan's character given he mentions it in an early annotation. As many have pointed out, and I agree, Shallan's most powerful scene in OB is when she fights Re-Sehpir (OB Ch. 30 Mother of Lies): Quote Shallan looked into the depths of the swirling void, the dark spinning soul of Re-Shephir, the Midnight Mother. Then, growling, Shallan struck. She didn't attack like the prim, excitable girl who had been trained by cautious Vorin society. She attacked like the frenzied child who had murdered her mother. The cornered woman who had stabbed Tyn through the chest. She drew upon that part f her that hated the way everyone assumed she was so nice, so sweet. The part of her that hated being described as diverting or clever. This feels like the embodiment of Shallan tapping into the underlying passion, or as Brandon says, being far more "her". Note that after this moment (where Shallan is admitting her painful truths to tap into that passion), Shallan has an about face (bold mine): Quote Shallan hung on, pressing herself against the enemy, but realization washed over her - the understanding that this thing was going to know her completely, discover each and every one of her secrets. Her ferocity and determination wavered; her commitment began to seep away. So she lied. She insisted that she wasn't afraid. She was committed. She'd always been that way. She could continue that way forever. Power could be an illusion of perception. Even within herself. So she covers her truth and passion up with illusions and lies to herself. She's not ready to face that passion within her, because that passion is what will make her come face-to-face with her lies. (Her remembering her lies, especially her mother's death which we rarely see her mention to herself, seems to be a key part in tapping this passion.) So, to wrap this up... like you said, just as Radiant seems to be tipping the balance towards Kaladin, the Shallan persona "stuffs" Radiant and Veil "into the back part of her brain." Because she's not ready to face the passion that she sees in Kaladin, because that would mean facing the passion in herself, passion which she stuffs down due to its association with her father, passion which she stuffs down because it forces her to confront truths about herself. And passion, which our dear author sees as the most "her" and part of "the person she could become." Just a small note about Adolin and passion. Shallan does mention Adolin in relation to passion. I haven't done a full search, but for instance: she notes, "She felt herself melting at the intense concern in those eyes, the passion" when Adolin is talking about Sadeas and wanting to "pound that grinning face of his into the stones and take back my father's Blade" (WoR Ch. 49 Watching the World Transform); and she lists the fact Adolin is "passionate about his art" (i.e. dueling) in her speech on why she chose him (OB Ch. 121, Ideals). Also Shallan often has passionspren around her when kissing Adolin. The motif isn't nearly as prevalent as when she is describing Kaladin and seems mostly associated to Adolin's fighting (/killing Sadeas - storms that quote is disturbing), but she definitely associated passion with Adolin as well just not as consistently and holistically as she does with Kaladin. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Dreamstorm said: Also Shallan often has passionspren around her when kissing Adolin. Passionspren are emotionspren, that generally occur to everyone, who is passionately kissing. IIRC the same happens with Navani and Dalinar. But I agree with you, she definitely sees passion in what Adolin does at times, but intense passion is something, that she only associates with Kaladin consistently. And deep down she is drawn to it, but flees when it gets serious. EDIT: On a general note, the encounter vs Re-Shephir was so great. I exclaimed plenty of encouraging expletives while reading that. Edited December 7, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhineasGage Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 Good morning all! So after a very poor night's sleep, I am hyped up on coffee and painkillers so if I ramble needlessly (more so than usual) I deeply apologise. Quick question actually - should I stop doing these very long posts? Are they too much? I can probably summarise my thoughts to posts made over my afk periods, but I might lose some nuance if I do. If people want me to cut them down I will - there is no point posting these monsters if people find them too hard going. For now, I'll do my usual long post, but I am going to address something about Adolin's character at the bottom that doesn't really answer a specific point (but relates to the overall discussion re Adolin) and is probably the most important bit of this if you want to skip the post/responses bit nearer the top. 21 hours ago, Awesomness said: If we parallel Roshar with medieval Europe, having children make more sense than not having children given the context. Though I don´t think this was the main reason why the wedding was so rushed, I do think it is something people would consider in that context. I was more thinking that because family planning is implied in Roshar (very few big "catholic" type families) we can use this as a basis for the discussion. That said, very few people actually know that family planning availability precedes the fall in infant mortality I wouldn't be surprised if BS didn't know so it perhaps is less relevant. Gapminder is still a storming fab resource. 18 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: I pair this missing with the missing wedding. The simple way of looking at it, is that Brandon felt these scenes wouldn't have anything to add (from a narrative POV, not fan satisfaction) and he didn't have the space to include them Interesting idea - he has actually left out the two most important interactions (or at least those that ought to have been the most emotionally charged). This is relevant. If he had included one and not the other then it would have possibly been too obvious the direction he is going? 18 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: Neither is worth the time developing because in the end what Shallan needs is intimate moments with herself in order to advance her emotional journe Oh yes, I completely agree. She doesn't know herself (as an aside, because - as ommented on below) Shallan is a Jane Austen heroine-esque character, it could be likened to Lizzy Bennet not knowing herself ("Until that moment I never knew myself") until she realised she had misled herself about Wickham and Darcy's characters completely. Not that I think Adolin is a Wickham by any means. 18 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: Wait, this actually happened?? Oh, I see what you mean about the artwork, that is really odd as yeah, those pictures had to be from the air/a distance. Is this even mentioned in the text as happening? (I know she references wanting to in Part 1, but I don't remember anything about it in Part 2 when it actually would have happened.) This makes me put one foot on the "something weird is happening which is why we didn't get these scenes" dinghy... hmmm I didn't think this actually happened either. Is this essentially a drawing from her imagination? Does she do it unconsciously? We got one drawing (of Nergaoul - and I still think that is relevant because she hadn't seen that Unmade at the time) that she had no memory of producing. Has she drawn this one in a similar position? 18 hours ago, Ailvara said: I just wanted to remind about this quote: Quote my name is Adolin Kholin, I was born under the sign of the nine OMG How did I miss this? This is huge. BS doesn't do coincidence. He foreshadows. What is the sign of the nine in terms of local Lore? Argh, I am really worried about Adolin now. It surely is an unlucky sign? Nine is so not good on Roshar. 18 hours ago, Ailvara said: I was thinking about how to reconcile both storylines, as I don't like red herrings and I hope there is something to both of them. 17 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: There was a lot of discussion on that with the prerelease chapters, but it was dismissed as coincidental. I agree - and even more so because BS rarely uses red herrings. Nearly everything thrown in seemingly at random is relevant. It is more likely that we misunderstand the foreshadowing or miss it than we spot it only to find it was misleading. He misdirects, as @Dreamstorm would say, not misleads. To quote a phrace, "coincidence? I think not!". 17 hours ago, Ailvara said: Another possibility is, that it will be about as significant for his storyline as Cryptics watching Elhokar... Which is not that much. Actually that was massivaly significant - just not to Elhokar. Wit is now a LW Roshar style, rather than using other investiture to use his Yolen form of LW. That is really big. It also showed that spren can watch an individual for a while before being chosen and that a person's choices really matter in terms of them bonding a spren. I think we can use this more than any other situation to understand the bonding process because we actually see the moment the bond starts to form. This is quite different from all our other Radiants who all are subconsciously using stormlight prior to knowing they are bonded. I doubt Elhokar is doing this prior to the attack on the Palace because he was so unwell after his assassination attempt at the end of WoR - he is only just getting better as he gets to Kholinar. 17 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: Totally agree. Usage of "nine" should also be analyzed in the books... this thread is now an advanced-level English class "Analyzing Brandon Sanderson's Oathbringer" complete with homework What do you mean "now and advanced-level English class" ? I expect 3000 words from each of you by next week regarding your favourite character in OB with supporting quotes. 17 hours ago, DeployParachute said: I refuse to believe his presence is not going to be significantly meaningful to the future plot of these novels. I refuse to believe that Adolin can just be the "good good good guy" that serves as the normal, mostly prefect counterpoint to every other characters growth and storylines. Out of the secondary POV characters, he had the most screen time. I agree. It isn't useful to just keep a character as the light aside and still have them get so much screentime. Shakespeare was very good at this actually. You often got "comedic" characters but if they stayed comedic throughout the play, they were essentially only put in scenes that were used to allow costume changes for the MCs. If they were "mains" as well as comedic relief, then they had to have other arcs for their story. Many of the "jester/fool" type characters in his plays follow this pattern - they are initially there for comedic relief but then go on to have more complex roles. I am particularly pointing to Touchstone in As You Like It as an example of this - he is used for light relief but is actually one of the wiser characters and is used in many ways to tell the whole story. Obviously Hoid as "Wit" is also playing this role, but he is less of a "light" character than Adolin because we see so much less of him prior to OB and in OB he is less light. You could also argue that Benedict in Much Ado About Nothing follows a similar vein as he is pretty comedic for most of the first half of the play but as his love for Beatrice grows (or imo simply is no longer suppressed by him) he becomes a more complex and serious character - tho he never loses his ability to see the funny side of things. Indeed, the Beatrice/Benedict love story is actually much more important for that play than the Hero/Claudio love story which is the story the play ostensibly revolves around. Characters who are only there fore humour and to lighten the situation get much less time on stage. In Much Ado, Dogberry is the best example of this. If you aren't a Shakespeare buff, I would definitely recommend watching the Joss Whedon Much Ado about Nothing film. Firstly because it is really easy to follow, despite the Shakespearian language, and secondly because it is a really good study in how different romances can be portrayed - contrast Beatrice/Benedict with Hero/Claudio and you'll see what I mean 15 hours ago, mariapapadia said: I'm working on my dissertation right now and this looks more thought through and put together that my thesis will ever be I am blown away by your dedication Oh *blushes* thanks I am sure that isn't true about your dissertation. The essay virtually wrote itself because SA is so well written. 14 hours ago, aemetha said: I do have one possible critique. Opposites attract is a thing we say, and there is some truth to it - but only when those opposites are complimentary. In other words, one party has to offer something meaningful to the other outside of conflict. No relationship can practically be maintained based only on physical attraction and conflict. So what do they actually offer each other in this respect? So I probably need to add to this, but in an addenda. I think opposites can "attract" but that isn't what keeps a relationship going. I don't actually see Shallan and Kaladin as being opposite really, so much as two sides of the same coin. They are called opposite, but you can't have one without the other to make a 3D object. Thats obviously an oversimplification but I hope you see my point? 13 hours ago, mariapapadia said: Quote #12Nov. 24, 2017 Brandon Sanderson Shallan berates the book merchant The timid nature is a result of the problems in her past (see book two's flashbacks). I see the moments of flaring passion as being far more “her.” Shallan's father has an infamous temper; it's buried deep within her as well. If she'd been allowed to grow up more naturally, without the oppressive darkness that her family suffered, she would have turned out as a very different person. Still, the person she could become is buried inside her. In my mind, this is one of the big connections between her as a character and Kaladin. It is also part of why both attract a certain type of spren… Fascinating. Is this all from BS directly, or is it just the bit in bold? So I have long thought that Veil is more like the Shallan she might have been without her horrible childhood. Not that Veil is the "real her" by any means, but is the bit she has suppressed because of her upbringing (including the way her tutors tried to control her). 12 hours ago, aemetha said: The love triangle was a plot device intended to demonstrate on Shallan's part a choice to integrate into her main personality, rather than further move toward the alternate personality. At the same time, the device helped to show that Kaladin, who is incredibly stubborn, can soften his feelings for a person. Shallan in many ways embodies all the things he hates. Lighteyed, deceitful, arrogant etc. The plot device showed that he can come to accept a relationship with her as a friend, and the romance angle was a vehicle to explain why he even bothered to learn enough about her for that step I am pretty certain there is a WoB that he tweaked the love triangle to highlight her fracturing identity rather than he wrote it in to make sure her identity issues were clear. Given how much effort has gone into the Shalladin stuff it seems like it would be a weak plotlining device because of the way it is so rushed at the end. If Shallan had chosen Adolin in a more coherent, less rushed manner and had done so in line with the sitting/standing bits as well, I'd be more inclined to agree. I also think both Kaladin and Shallan have kind of ended up at the same point as they did at the end of WoR in terms of their relationship - and this is interesting because they also both fail to progress further as KR, despite the possibility of progression being clearly indicated in the text. 12 hours ago, aemetha said: Think Ned Stark here - he's actually a brilliant example because they are held up to be very similar, likeable characters. I very much agree. Game of Thrones spoilers (tho if you don't know this - where is the cave you are living in and how does it have wifi?) Spoiler The interesting bit is about why Ned Stark dies. He is an honourable and honest man in a world where those are so unusual and misunderstood that he is killed for it. The world of Urithiru is a more nuanced place imo. Dalinar is aiming towards honor and honesty but has a troubled past. BUT I think with the time-skip, we will find that the honest and honorable will be at the top and those less inclined towards those traits will be held back. Adolin's position will be determined by how Dalinar perceieves him now and whether Adolin can actually live up to it or not. The Sadeas murder was not honourable - it was an impulsive act of vengeance - much more in keeping with the GoT world than Dalinar's Urithiru. I suppose it is a somewhat Augustinian thought that a corrupt man cannot exist in an uncorrupted world and vice versa. Adolin, despite being very likeable has corrupted his soul by cmmitting murder and cannot heal it until her feels remorse - well I think that is how BS would see it anyway. 12 hours ago, Starla said: Carriage Ride chapter, which is one of my favorite chapters in WOR. Though I'm not necessarily a Shalladin shipper, I always thought the scene where Hoid encourages Kaladin to flirt with Shallan was somehow significant. As you mentioned, he seems to always show up at important moments and has an ulterior motive for everything he says and does. This was one of the things in WOR that made me go hmmm. I also noticed that both Kaladin and Shallan went looking for him when they were at their low points (Kal in WOR, Shallan in OB). He wasn't around for either, but it shows that they both respect him and have some sort of connection with him. I had missed that they both go looking for him in WoR. I think Shallan still needs another story from Wit - Kaladin has had 2 from Hoid, but Shallan has only had one so far (not including the flashback because it isn't really a story in the same vein). 11 hours ago, maxal said: Adolin is not evil: he is a shinning beacon of perfection. He is not a whitespine in dormancy waiting to strike: he is not the Blackthorn. He's just a guy who will protect the father he cannot see in any other light than a glorious one against all threads and will never bat an eye at it, because he will always feel he needs to do those things. He has no guilt and without guilt, Odium has NO hold. Adolin is just about the farther away from Odium's character we currently has: he is 100% assuming. I am going to cover Adolin more thoroughly at the bottom of this post but I wanted to address something you mentioned here. I think people are conflating the idea of a predator being evil and it simply isn't. A lion must kill to eat, and so must the whitespine. "Good" and "Evil" can only be attributed to human behavior and they are extremely subjective terms even in that context. Whether Adolin can be seen as a whitespine or not is a separate idea to him or his actions being good or evil. I want to address the anthopomorphic personifications of whitespine, but it does have "evil" connotations because it is dangerous, but those ideas are as equally false as the idea that "cunning" is an epithet we use in the West to describe foxes. Real foxes aren't "cunning" because they don't have the necessary thought processes to manage it. They are scavenger/predators so they have traits that lend them to steathy behaviour that may look "cunning" to a person, but in reality we are simply projecting. 11 hours ago, mariapapadia said: Haha! I know what you mean! it's been a while since i sketched something outside of work or university and as a soon to be architect, that made me wanna start again! I m actually planning to use the Christmas break to play with different stuff and scenes i had in my head from OB. We also have the American cover of WoR as a canon drawing of him, or am i getting that wrong? I really want to see these! When you've got them done feel free to PM them to me. I am hoping to build a huge Urithiru like tower in minecraft between now and SA4 so any ideas about what it should look like from multiple angles would alsobe amazing 8 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said: Brandon gave a comment that Shallan's wit is partially based on Jane Austen characters. In hindsight I can definitely see that, barring the traumatic past her personality type is very much like a Jane Austen protagonist. The ideal matches in Jane Austen novels were partners, people who intellectually challenged you and were strongly driven by an internal moral code that complemented your own. Adolin is kind, supportive and and an all around wonderful human being, but he's no Mr. Darcy. There was this other very Mr. Darcy-like character who was brooding, witty, verbally fenced with Shallan for long strings of fast-paced dialogue, and was utterly driven by his internal moral code of right and wrong, but that's not who Shallan chose in the end. The question now becomes was Brandon just subverting expectations by having his Jane Austen protagonist chose the unexpected suitor, or will Shallan and Adolin's puppy love relationship get a harsh dose of reality in the near future? The nice thing about Jane Austen is that she wasn't wedded to the idea that landed gentry were the only options for romantic heroes. Look at Anne Elliott and Frederick Wentworth in Persuasion. Wentworth is Anne's equal in terms of intellect, attitudes and understanding, but not her social equal. She is persuaded to refuse his offer of marriage 8 years prior to the start of the book - a decision she deeply regrets. Despite his earning a fortune in the Napoleonic wars, he remains her social inferior but that ultimately doesn't matter. Don't get me wrong, plenty of the Austen heroes are landed gentry, but that is as much because she was of a particular class and wrote her characters into the same social sphere because she was writing what she knew. Point is that she wanted her characters to be matched for their minds over other "political" concerns. 8 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: That was awesome!! I'm incredibly impressed with your objectivity in presenting everything as well. I also think your possible conclusions have kind of come true if we replace "full betrothal" with "marriage", but book 4 will be the crucial one in the that regard. Thank you so much for sharing this! Oh thank you I really appreciate your insights and I looking forward to adding all the addenda to make the whole analysis more rounded and complete. 8 hours ago, Dreamstorm said: it's kinda like Hotel California, you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave A song about addiction seems especially appropriate for this thread These lines stand out as particularly fitting! Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends She got a lot of pretty, pretty boys, that she calls friends 4 hours ago, SLNC said: thank you for keeping me awake, Phin and I hope you are okay with me quoting these things. It is your work after all. By all means - this is going to become a collaborative effort anyway so any futher thoughts are always welcome! 4 hours ago, SLNC said: Maybe I'm reading too much in this, but I'm seeing parallels to Shallan's decision at the end of Oathbringer. Me too - both Kaladin and Shallan end up almost where they started - as I said above, this mirrors their KR lack of progression, though I think both are now in a place to move forward on that front so perhaps the relationships will shift as well. I don't expect Shallan to progress until SA5 and Kaladin and she will likely hit level 5 more or less simultaneaously imo. I think she needs to accept her 4th truth properly still (perhaps coincides with Kaladin's 4th ideal) and then she can move on. I don't think she is going to make any progress on this in the timeskip - assuming Adolin continues to differentiate between her alts - because she won't be addressing her fractured identity. 2 hours ago, insert_anagram_here said: But as I've said in my quote above, I think that Kaladin's feelings towards Shallan have moved beyond that, he is now being influenced by her. I think the exact turning point in the books is in the chasms as well "Oh, storms. She smiled anyway." and he himself rationalizes those feelings as "I felt . . . something. A lightening of my burdens when I was near her. " She now influences him to rethink his attitude towards lighteyes. Now on Shallan's side, I think she was on the brink of becoming influenced by him after the end of the Battle of Thaylen Field, but was so scared of the prospect that her betrothal to Adolin was not justified, that she instead forced herself to be 'influenced' by Adolin. He now influences her as to who the 'real' Shallan is. I like this interpretation. It is very interesting. I am not sure I buy into the Shallan being influenced by Adolin (yet) - I think she wants to be influenced by him but as you say is forcing the issue. Kaladin is more honest about his emotional state than Shallan is (what's new right?) but I think because he never really considered her an option (how can Kaladin compete with Adolin after all - he's a storming prince) he doesn't allow himself to acknowledge that his feelings had any depth. I bet we find that Kaladin is away from Adolin/Shallan for the majority of the timeskip - he'll find perfectly rational reasons to avoid them - eg rescuing refugees etc. At some point though (assuming the foreshadowing is pointing toward the Shalladin outcome) then he'll be forced to confront his feelings. This may be the point at which Kaladin is actually at his most vulnerable - love is probably the most dangerous emotion humans can feel after all - it causes people to react unpredictably and somewhat out of character. 1 hour ago, Ailvara said: The way Moash wants justice for his grandparents and to free Alethkar of a bad king - how different is it really from what Adolin does to Sadeas? On the level of outcomes, these are both valid choices (at least at first - until you consider all the mess with Amaram, Sadeas troops and the Thrill) - they just stand in opposition to the "journey before destination" moral implications. Yes I agree. The "journey before destination" is very important We see that the Moash and Amaram see the "ends justify the means" and I suspect (tho I may be projecting) that Adoin feels the same way about Sadeas - a feeling that is reinforced when he sees how his peers react to Sadeas' death. 1 hour ago, Ailvara said: While Adolin feels no guilt partly because of his loyalty, I can completely see him starting to question it after he learns of Dalinar and Evi. And then, to question himself and the murder as a natural consequence. Interestingly, I see the opposite as likely. I think he tries to justify the murder to himself using Dalinar as an excuse, but I don't actually think it was something foremost in his mind when he killed the man. I think he will already have solved any issues in his own mind regarding the murder by the time he finds out about Evi's death (if he ever does) and his lack of remorse will actually be even more obvious. 1 hour ago, Ailvara said: Adolin is SO Mr Bingley Great point! Bingley is also terribly dull in my opinion. I wouldn't trade places with Jane Bennett for all the tea in China. 48 minutes ago, Ize19 said: This thread has not disappointed in the slightest, I've been blown away by the analysis and discussion I've found on here. I've been in favor of Shalladin since the first time they met, but I admit I'd accepted that the triangle was over, and Shadolin was canon, upon completing the book. Welp, you guys have convinced me to rejoin the good ship Shalladin, so please forgive my lack of faith! Welcome Aboard the SS Shalladin. Just curl up on the deck wherever you can find room - its starting to get a bit crowded. I'd offer you a drink, but we're out I'm afraid. I just found some dried ships biscuits in the hold - its the last of the food I'm afraid and they are full of weevils, but at least that means extra protein right? 49 minutes ago, Ize19 said: @PhineasGage, that was an incredible essay, I really appreciated your in depth analysis, and look forward to seeing your OB update. One thing your section on Shadolin brought to mind was Sanderson's portrayal of love as a choice. I'm just glad people are enjoying it and it is proving useful for additional discussion. I like your point on choice - Shallan seems to throw her agency away at the end of OB - and she didn't need to. I mean, she could have chosen Adolin properly and then we'd all already be at the bottom of the sea likely tangled in the rigging of the SS Shalladin, a ship of corpses sailing forever on underwater current.... wow - morbid. Anyway, point is, we could have had an ending that sank our ship rather than leaving it becalmed for the next 3 years. 50 minutes ago, Ize19 said: She forces (Sanderson's word, not mine) a passionate kiss on him, clearly trying to increase her feelings for Adolin again. And, when he holds her, she uses the opportunity to minimize the importance of Kaladin holding her all night, saying that it felt "nice to be held," as if that was the only reason she'd enjoyed her night with him. Huh - it totally missed that - and yet she definitely felt safe in Kaladin's arms because she slept. As a non-snuggly person, I can't even sleep snuggling with my SO. I get Shallan is more tactile than I am but this takes it a bit far surely? 51 minutes ago, insert_anagram_here said: So after the plot bombs explode that his father isn't the hero he always thought he was, but a mass murder that even killed his own mother, I think that will affect him on an existential level. Because 'Dalinar is a hero' was what he based the facade he made of himself. So we know Adolin knows at least a bit of Dalinar's troubled past because he tells Kaladin so when he discussed Amaram with him (after they get out of prison in WOR). I am not sure how much Adolin knows - but he must know some of it? I mean, it seems to be pretty common knowledge that "the Blackthorn" was a crazy killing machine. What worries me, is that if Adolin knows enought to know his father was a monster, then why does he want Dalinar to be "the Blackthorn" so much in tWoK? If he doesn't then of course it implies a very romanticised view of his father , but that is then undermined by his knowing Dalinar has a checkered past. Phew, so now that's over I'd like to add my thoughts to the Adolin discussion. I haven't addressed this point by point because it is a complex subject and I want to try and keep my thoughts on it coherent. Firstly, I want to address something that occurred to me this morning. How much are we each projecting onto Adolin? This is a really important subject - and needs to be dealt with before we can go further with his character analysis. If we fail to recognise this may be an issue, then any analysis is inherently flawed. So why do I say this? Well firstly, I feel Adolin falls into a kind of "uncanny valley" in terms of his portrayal. He gets a lot of screentime from other people but relatively little time as an actual PoV character. Let me put it this way - do you know how many PoV chapters Adolin gets in tWoK for example? I massively overestimated it - he only gets 10 PoV chapters - and he shares every one of those with at least 1 other PoV character - ie Kaladin or Dalinar. This puts Adolin in a unique position in the story - he gets a great deal of page-time for his actions (at times almost equal or even greater than Kaladin) , but vastly less time for his motivations. This makes him ripe for us projecting onto him because we want to explain his actions and without his inner monologue, we have little or no information to go on. I suspect that this explains in part why some people relate to him and others do not - we are projecting different things onto him. Let us look at a specific example - his protection of the whore in tWoK. Why does he do it? Quick answer: We don't know. Long answer: We see this from Kaladin's perspective and the whole episode is coloured by Kaladin's perspective - he is not an unreliable narrator like Shallan, but he still tells things as he sees them, not as they "truly" are. We know the truth is subjective and our PoVs are equally so - and we must remember this is true for all our characters, though some may be more problematic (*cough Shallan *cough) than others. We never see Adolin think about this event. His motivations may have been pure and honourable, or they may have been base, but the crucial thing is we don't know because we don't see them. So I know people will try to draw analogies with other events and say this points to this thought patterns and behaviors, and they will have a point. The problem is that throughout all 3 books, we see relatively little of Adolin's motives. He tends to get "in the moment" PoVs - eg his duels, where his introspection is limited. That means that we have many examples of behaviors that are never explained. We can try but we are working with very limited data. The issue for Adolin's actions is that they are primarily seen through the eyes of people who want to see the best of him. Dalinar is exceptionally proud of Adolin and doesn't see his flaws particulary. Shallan wants to see him in the best light and goes out of her way to make herself like him. Even Kaladin, despite the fairly rocky start, conceded that Adolin is a decent bloke long before he acknowledges it verbally. His view of Adolin also may therefore work in Adolin's favour. This is very different from how the same characters view (eg) Sadeas - who gets almost nothing but negative ideas - even from Dalinar - throughout tWoK and WoR. We might agree he is "bad" because he opposes our heroes but let's be honest, we know even less of his motivations than we do Adolin's. He may yet be redeemed. Unlike other side PoV characters, it is Adolin's onscreen actions that are important rather than his on-screen thoughts. That seems likely to continue. But where we see Renarin's position (i.e. a good guy - definitely trying to be one based on his PoV) - we see Adolin acting in concert with his position within his family and the expectations of him. That doesn't mean he doesn't "think like a good guy" the problem is that we have limited proof of it. Renarin sees his father fail to fight Odium in his vision and pleads for him to fight (and so shows his feelings about it) and he essentially allows Jasnah to kill him (because he thinks she is probably right to) whereas Adolin does what he is told and doesn't question it. As I said, I am not suggesting that Adolin wants to question it - the point is, by not seeing himself question his own actions, we don't know where he stands. The closest we get is his introspection about how to handle Dalinar's "madness" and even then he doesn't tell us much about why he is worried. We get a few hints - that he is worried for Dalinar (understandably) or that he is worried for himself (he doesn't want to be highprince). But we don't see how he reconciles himself to his eventual outcome. Is it selfishness that drives him or selflessness? I don't think we know because we don't see him make the decision. Again, I am not suggesting Adolin's position is "evil". It is more that I think we feel like we know him as well as our 3 MCs - but in fact we don't. So given all this, where do we go from here? I think people are concerned regarding Adolin's arc progression and I just wanted to point out that (a) Sanderson wouldn't invest this much time into a character just to keep him as a light aside - so we will see more, and (b) we actually have limited info regarding where he is now so deciding his progression is difficult. I actually think the "whitespine" may be a very good analogy for Adolin as a result of this. A top predator is not "evil" or "good", it simply "is". Anthropomorphism of an animal tells us more about people than the animal in question. I feel that Adolin is perhaps more neutral than many of us would naturally place him. He has the propensity to go either way (as do we all) and thus is likely to be very important. Like Snape in Happy Potter, his position is unique and may be much more important than he initially appears. I know we can argue that "actions speak louder than words" and I would normally agree, but in a work of literary fiction, we essentially only have words and motivations are vital for truly understanding someone. I, for one, will be re-reading Adolin with this in mind and trying to decide what his PoVs alone can tell me - and try to ignore the bias regarding him that other PoVs inevitably give him. Ok, this post has taken me about 4 hours (on and off) to finish and I'm flagging. I hope I made my final point properly. I wanted to address specific points, but I can't remember them all now so I'm going to leave it for a bit. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dreamstorm Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 15 minutes ago, SLNC said: Passionspren are emotionspren, that generally occur to everyone, who is passionately kissing. IIRC the same happens with Navani and Dalinar. Agreed it's not that significant, but I wanted to be as fair as I could in the Adolin passion association Oh, total tangent, I noticed (as I was searching for passionspren references) that Dalinar's chapter where he kills his own men and almost kills Gavilar is called "Blackthorn Unleashed" (OB Ch. 16), which has symmetry to the title of Adolin's duel-fighting chapter "Whitespine Uncaged" (WoR Ch. 56). The fighting in the chapters is in a totally different contexts, but Brandon's chapter titles have proven prescient in retrospect before. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 I think it would be best if Kaladin not get a girlfriend who is fighting on the front lines though. He already drives himself crazy worrying about harm coming to those he's protecting, I'm not sure he could emotionally handle having a relationship partner being at risk of harm. This love triangle does have interesting echoes with the earlier Navani-Dalinar-Gavilar triangle. I think Kaladin is lying to himself about being over Shallan completely. He's too honorable, and cares about Adolin too much to pursue the relationship further, but I can definitely see him forcing himself to be distant from Shallan like Dalinar did with Navani. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 7, 2017 Report Share Posted December 7, 2017 (edited) 18 minutes ago, PhineasGage said: Quick question actually - should I stop doing these very long posts? Are they too much? I can probably summarise my thoughts to posts made over my afk periods, but I might lose some nuance if I do. If people want me to cut them down I will - there is no point posting these monsters if people find them too hard going. Absolutely not. I'm looking forward to them everyday to be honest. Though if they are getting too much for you, you should stop! 18 minutes ago, PhineasGage said: Fascinating. Is this all from BS directly, or is it just the bit in bold? So I have long thought that Veil is more like the Shallan she might have been without her horrible childhood. Not that Veil is the "real her" by any means, but is the bit she has suppressed because of her upbringing (including the way her tutors tried to control her). This WoK annotation: https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-the-way-of-kings-chapter-8/ Storms, this is groundbreaking. 12 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said: I think it would be best if Kaladin not get a girlfriend who is fighting on the front lines though. He already drives himself crazy worrying about harm coming to those he's protecting, I'm not sure he could emotionally handle having a relationship partner being at risk of harm. Only about those who can not protect themselves That is another thing. When Shallan/Veil infitrates the palace and Shallan asks Kaladin to stay behind, he does so. Shallan can protect herself and Kaladin knows it. Edited December 7, 2017 by SLNC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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