[OB]Why some spren are rare

[Steeldancer]

Cultivation versus honor. That's why. The cultivation ones are more rare because a ton of spren came as a result of Honor dying. So those related to cultivation would be rarer. 

I realized this because of the spren being corrupted in Kholinar. I haven't finished the book yet though so. 

This would explain why such rare spren would appear in Urithiru. It's closer to Cultivation, and is probably closer to the Cognitive Realm. 

Back to reading. 

Edited November 14, 2017 by Steeldancer

[Leyrann]

Isn't Honor's Shattering a very recent event though? I can't find any WoB on it, but someone in a recent thread (I believe on this subforum) argued that it might be as little as a few decades ago, in which case people would know that certain spren had become more common.

Apart from that, there's going to be more information further on in the book about how common spren are (or not) and why.

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

Isn't Honor's Shattering a very recent event though?

Unless it got revealed during Oathbringer, we don't know when that happened. All we know is that it was almost certainly after the Recreance. The Recreance was 2 millennia or so ago. That's a large span of time.

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

but someone in a recent thread (I believe on this subforum) argued that it might be as little as a few decades ago

The most common belief is that it coincided with the Recreance, but there are various theories that all reached this conclusion separately.

1. Per my memory, The Recreance was the last of Honor's Vision's to Dalinar before the one he explicitly stated was a projection of a possible future.
   • It stands to reason that the Recreance was the last event of any consequence that Honor witnessed. That'd put it between the Recreance and the Hierocracy, ie between 700 and 2,300 years ago.
2. There's a theory going around that Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow merging with the Stormfather is what allowed the Stormfather to survive the Recreance.
   • Built around Pattern's statement that "The Stormfather survived" when talking about the Recreance. That'd put Honor's splintering very close to the Recreance.
3. It's been theorized that the KR abandoning(or all the Spren of Honor dying) may have weakened Honor in some way, allowing Odium to strike.
   • This one has the most holes in it, but it is one of the older theories. Timeline would be close to the Recreance, so that Honor wouldn't have time to recover.
4. A new one going around involves the Shattered Plains being shattered as a result of Honor's splintering, and the plains happened long enough ago that Vorin myth says it happened during Aharietiam itself.
   • I have my doubts about this one, but it's here for completeness. Timeline would be around the Recreance(Stormseat has been gone a long time)

I personally feel that Tanavast fell not too long after the Recreance. If you had to pin me down on why, I'd lean towards Interpretation 1, with a hint of 2, and some less related reasons.

The "recent" interpretation is very new, and the person who brought it up (Brightlord Maelstrom?) is the first that I've seen to talk about it on here

[Leyrann]

Regarding the Stormfather surviving the Recreance, I believe that one of the epigraphs in part 3 states that there was only one Bondsmith at that time, so he might simply not have been bonded. Personally, I figured that maybe that giant spren that we saw in an interlude is the 'third' Bondsmith spren, and went mad or something like that due to being the one that was bonded during the Recreance.

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Leyrann said:

Regarding the Stormfather surviving the Recreance, I believe that one of the epigraphs in part 3 states that there was only one Bondsmith at that time, so he might simply not have been bonded.

These theories were from before Oathbringer came out, so if new info contradicts them, that's why. Guess we put too much faith in Pattern's implied wording with "the one you call Stormfather lived."

[Steeldancer]

Still, point remains. 

Now how the heck did Renarins Spren get corrupted? Must reread. 

[Pattern]

11 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Now how the heck did Renarins Spren get corrupted? Must reread. 

Glys is referred to by Sja-anat as her son. It seems that Renarin accidentally bonded a corrupted spren in the first place.

Honor changed before the Recreance and became much less compassionate. Looks like Tanavast finally lost his own personality and yielded to the Shards Intent. There are two more big Honorspren, the Sibling and possibly Phendorana (ali'i'kamura) (Syl's maybe-sort-of-halfway nuatoma (aunt or something like that)), who were Bondsmith-spren. They pulled back before the Recreation, so there was only one Bondsmith left.That would have been the old Stormfather (possibly Adonalsium-spren since native to Roshar?). With Honor's death, the largest part of Honor's remnants merged with the Stormfather. This happened at a time when Syl was asleep and grieving after losing her former Radiant.

I think with the information from Oathbringer we can rule out the Nightwatcher and Cusicesh as Bondsmithspren. Somewhere, the Stormfather (I think) is very amused about the proposition to bond the Nightwatcher. Can't find the passage right now, though.*

So the Stormfather survived the Recreance in his old form, possibly because he never became a Shardblade. Honor gave him the visions to broadcast shortly before his death or via Investiture merging directly after his Splintering. The last vision is the Recreance. If there had been newer events like the Hierocracy, Honor probably would also have included them. So I think it is safe to assume that Honor's death was before the Hierocracy and other important historic events after the Recreance (I don't have any others in mind just now, but others of you might have). As a time window of Honor's Splintering I therefore would assume the time between the Recreance and the next historically recorded major event.

* Edit: Found it: Chapter 64: Binder of Gods.

Quote

"Three?" Dalinar said. "Three spren who make Bondsmiths. You ... and Cultivation are two?"
The Stormfather actually laughed. You would have a difficult time making her your spren. I should like to see you try it.
"Then who?"
My siblings need not concern you.

 

Edited November 15, 2017 by Pattern
Typos

[Leyrann]

@Pattern Dalinar's flashback shows that the Nightwatcher and Cultivation are two different beings. The Nightwatcher might very well be one of the Bondsmith spren still.

[Windrunner]

I think that this very clearly indicates that the Nightwatcher is a Bondsmith spren. The Stormfather could be letting Dalinar come to his own inaccurate conclusions, but I don't think so.

Quote

You do not remember. But normally, [Cultivation] hides. Cowardice.

“Perhaps wisdom,” Dalinar said. “The Nightwatcher—”

Is not her.

“Yes, you’ve said. The Nightwatcher is like you. Are there others, though? Spren like you, or the Nightwatcher? Spren that are shadows of gods?”

There is . . . a third sibling. They are not with us.

“In hiding?”

No. Slumbering.

“Tell me more.”

No.

Oathbringer Chapter 111

 

[Pattern]

4 hours ago, Leyrann said:

Dalinar's flashback shows that the Nightwatcher and Cultivation are two different beings. The Nightwatcher might very well be one of the Bondsmith spren still.

I know very well that Cultivation and the Nightwatcher are not the same, but Dalinar still seems to equate them at this point. So Dalinar really means whether the Nightwatcher is another Bondsmithspren. The Stormfather answers in the negative - and he seems to mean Cultivation, literally. The quote @Windrunner provided indeed implies that the Nightwatcher is another Bondsmithspren. And then an inconsistency: "There is . . . a third sibling. They are not with us." And further: "No! Leave them alone. You hurt them enough."

Third sibling - they: Either the second sibling (Nightwatcher) and the third sibling are meant together or the third sibling is multiple individua (hivemind?).

Selected Part 3 epigraphs:

Quote

This generation has had only one Bondsmith, and some blame the deivisions among us upon this fact. The true problem is far deeper. I believe that Honor himself is changing.

- From drawer 24-18, smokestone

My research into the cognitive reflections of spren at the tower has been deeply illustrative. Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent - but I find counter to that theory.

- From drawer 1-1, first zircon

The wilting of plants and the general cooling of the air is disagreeable, yes, but some of the tower's functions remain in place. The increased pressure, for example, persists.

-From drawer 1-1, second zircon

Something is happening to the Sibling. I agree this is true, but the division among the Knights Radiant is not to blame. Our perceived worthiness is a separate issue.

- From drawer 1-1, third zircon

Good night, dear Urithiru. Good night, sweet Sibling. Good night, Radiants.

- From drawer 29-28, ruby

Here again is the talk of "the Sibling". It seems to be connected to Urithiru, since the good-bye goes to Urithiru and the Sibling - well and the Radiants who soon are to abandon their oaths. Also, the disabling of the tower functions (second zircon) is bracketed between two comments concerning the withdrawing of the Sibling. Was the Sibling the spren that powered the Urithiru Fabrial? The spren of Urithiru?

Addition:

4 hours ago, Windrunner said:

“Yes, you’ve said. The Nightwatcher is like you. Are there others, though? Spren like you, or the Nightwatcher? Spren that are shadows of gods?”

There is another inconsistency (not ruling out the Nightwatcher as Bondsmith spren but we should be wary of given inworld information): The Nightwatcher is in fact not like the Stormfather. The old Stormfather - then already a Bondsmithspren - absorbed large chunks of Honor's Investiture after the Splintering of Honor. Cultivation is still alive, so the Nightwatcher -even if she is Cultivation's spren - should not have the same level of Investiture. To compare the three Bondsmith spren, we should look at them before Honor's Splintering. The Highstorms predate the arrival of the Shards on Roshar, so the Stormfather could very well be an Adonalsiumspren (now mixed with Honor). If the Nightwatcher is pure Cultivationspren, the Sibling could be pure Honorspren.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Pattern