Willow Posted November 17, 2017 Report Share Posted November 17, 2017 I think Tarah's words are important here, as hers was the last of Kaladin's flashbacks in this book. 'Be there for the living'. We've seen time and time again that Kaladin has trouble letting go of his failures, and that he is terrified of letting anyone die, to the point that it can and has paralysed him. Accepting that he can't save everyone, and, parallelling what Wit told Shallan (and Dalinar's realization later in this book), that while the pain is his, and that it's real, he's not to blame for causing it, and he can forgive himself, start to move on, and let someone else shoulder the responsibility for once. I'm not sure if this is his oath exactly, but I do think it is a very important step in his development. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elanmorin Posted November 17, 2017 Report Share Posted November 17, 2017 I've been leaning towards, "I will allow some to sacrifice their lives that others may live." 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Radagu Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 Way back right after Words of Radiance was first published, someone made a humorous list of predictions for book three. One of them was something along the lines of "The fourth Wind runner Ideal turns out to be 'I will not move in on my best friend's girl.' Kaladin refuses to say it." Obviously that's not the mystery Ideal (I agree that it's something about accepting that one can't protect everyone), but it stuck in my head well enough that I spent a lot of time chuckling at Kaladin's inability to say the Words so soon after he began admitting to himself that he was interested in Shallan after all. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandondash Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 A few thoughts: Based on what we learned about the Skybreakers, the fifth ideal for each order is very difficult to achieve; as in, next to impossible. There is a reason the Stormlight heals everything but his slave brands. He feels like he's is supposed to have them. He locks up in the gallery when he watches first hand the effects of killing to protect, which is a perfect segway into... Lirin has been right all along. This leads me to theorize on not only the fourth ideal but also the fifth: 4: Acknowledgement that he cannot protect everyone - or maybe forgiveness for his failures. This will be a very dramatic scene where his brands finally heal. I think that's pretty clear based on Dalinar's story arc and not nearly as interesting to me as... 5: You cannot kill to protect. 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starla Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 Several times throughout the series Kaladin rattles off a list in his head of all the people he's failed and lost. He does it in this scene. This reminds of Rand's list of women in Wheel of Time. He repeats that list in his head every time someone dies because of him. Rand eventually had to let those people go and stop blaming himself for their deaths. I can't help but feel Kaladin's oath is something similar, and he's not ready yet to leave those people behind, especially with Tien on the list. I also wonder about Teft. Will his fourth ideal be similar, perhaps letting go of the Envisager members who were executed because of him? I assume most Windrunners need to face something like this, otherwise they will eventually become frozen by guilt and grief. @brandondash I've also considered Lirin's belief that "You cannot kill to protect" to be the inspiration for the next oath. Though I wonder how that applies to voidbringers. If a flying fused is wiping out a village of innocent people and Kaladin is the only person who can fight them, is it his duty to remove the threat? Does he try to chase it off without killing it (or killing the body it's inhabiting), or should he try to crack the gemheart to essentially kill it until it finds another host? At this point, I think he would have to fight to kill, otherwise the thing will keep coming back as soon as he leaves. I would be curious to see what Lirin things about killing the voidbringers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastofus Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 21 minutes ago, brandondash said: A few thoughts: Based on what we learned about the Skybreakers, the fifth ideal for each order is very difficult to achieve; as in, next to impossible. There is a reason the Stormlight heals everything but his slave brands. He feels like he's is supposed to have them. He locks up in the gallery when he watches first hand the effects of killing to protect, which is a perfect segway into... Lirin has been right all along. I read it completely different. He already saw it, he already has done it. He killed Heralan to protect Amaram, killed Parshendi to protect Dalinar and his soldiers, killed/or tried to kill Szeth to save bridge 4 and Dalinar. He is the watcher at the rim. What he saw was more about 2 groups of people who had no business fighting (A listener's group barely learning to fight overwhelming a group of guards who didn't want to fight but had to). In an ideal world he would've stopped both. So no, Lirin was not right. 18 minutes ago, brandondash said: This leads me to theorize on not only the fourth ideal but also the fifth: 4: Acknowledgement that he cannot protect everyone - or maybe forgiveness for his failures. This will be a very dramatic scene where his brands finally heal. I think that's pretty clear based on Dalinar's story arc and not nearly as interesting to me as... 5: You cannot kill to protect. I am now more toward the idea that the fourth ideal is about "not protecting a specific target". What happens when you have 2 groups with conflicting interest that you want to protect, you have to take a side. I've no idea what the actual word will be. And the 5th.. as I have said I don't support your theory. I think the 5th (or at least the final one) in both cases are these: Skybreakers: I make the law. I don't question the choice I made later. Windrunners: I define the right. I don't question the choice I made later. 5 minutes ago, Starla said: I can't help but feel Kaladin's oath is something similar, and he's not ready yet to leave those people behind, especially with Tien on the list. Haven't read Wheel of Time, but this could really be the case. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandondash Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 24 minutes ago, lastofus said: And the 5th.. as I have said I don't support your theory. I think the 5th (or at least the final one) in both cases are these: Skybreakers: I make the law. I don't question the choice I made later. Windrunners: I define the right. I don't question the choice I made later. Only time will tell I guess! Your idea is totally plausible, but also much easier to write. I mean after all "I define what is right" makes Kaladin a walking Deus Ex Machina. It will be much more difficult to resolve the cognitive dissonance going on in the Lirin/Kaladin debate. I have noticed a common style of Mr. Sanderson is to never waste a piece of the story, and Lirin's philosophy was put in early and revisited often. I don't think that was by accident. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+rhaiynebow Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 I really like the idea that the fourth ideal will be along the lines of honoring the dead by protecting the living or accepting failure in order to move on...but thinking about the fact that he gets plate with fourth ideal and the fact that he tends to protect people with little to no regard for his own safety, could it be "I will protect myself first, so that I may protect others"? That would fit with the windrunner epigrah, and with the flashback with Nalma(?) where she was telling him to go and leave her so he wouldn't get caught, and in Shadesmar where they were surrounded by the fused (protect himself and the others from the fused as an immediate threat to himself vs. going to try to save Dalinar). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatronOfRot Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 "I will not dwell on those I couldn't save, but focus on those I can." "I will accept I cannot protect everyone." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntentAwesome Posted November 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 3 hours ago, PatronOfRot said: "I will accept I cannot protect everyone." So this is an interesting one, because by admitting that he couldn’t swear the Fourth Ideal to save Adolin and protect Dalinar, he would be de facto living the Fourth Ideal. For that reason, I’m not sure this is it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ephemera Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 I was struck by the chapter title, before even reading the chapter, where Elhokar dies and Kaladin begins his breakdown: The One You Can Save. Kaladin speaks this to Elhokar, "Be a hero to the one you can save," but it seems to apply to Kaladin as well. Based on the gemstone/epigraph left by the Windrunner, I agree with the speculation here that it will somehow involve Kaladin releasing the pain of his failures to protect people. Maybe something along the lines of: "I will protect those I can save, even at the cost of those I cannot" 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Egomere Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 Sometimes there is Nothing I can do. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarrileteCosmico Posted November 18, 2017 Report Share Posted November 18, 2017 All of the ideals so far (bar the 1st) have been decided by the narrative arc. So what are the struggles that Kaladin will be facing in Book 4? I think by the end of OB Kal has made no significant progress to ensure that this doesn't happen again: Quote In that moment, Kaladin lost something precious. He’d always been able to trick himself into seeing a battle as us against them. Protect those you love. Kill everyone else. But …but they didn’t deserve death. None of them did. He locked up. He froze, something that hadn’t happened to him since his first days in Amaram’s army. The Sylspear vanished in his fingers, puffing to mist. How could he fight? How could he kill people who were just doing the best they could? I think it's very likely this will still be an issue going forward, and that the narrative dictates that the words will be something to get him over this. This would also match the gemstone saying it is unable to say the 4th ideal because "shouldn't I want to protect everyone?", as this is exactly what caused Kal to lose it. So the 4th ideal will be something about the necessity of picking sides, or that protection of those you love might mean you have to kill good men. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrooFudge Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 I think the fourth ideal will be like a compliment of the third ideal, and it will lead Kaladin to kill Moash. "As long as it is right, I will kill those I love". 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamahako Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 I think it more has to do with sacrificing himself. He can't protect people if he is willing to sacrifice himself at the drop of a hat. "I will protect myself, so I can protect others in the future." Like putting on your oxygen mask before assisting others when an airplane cabin decompresses. Hopefully it goes into the importance of self-care (which is key - given that he suffers from depression). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emailanimal Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 On 11/16/2017 at 11:14 AM, Steeldancer said: I realized what one of the Willshaper oaths will be today I will go where no one has gone before. I always thought that a version of it: "I will go where no one will" or "where no one will dare" as an Elsecaller's Ideal, but post-Oathbringer, I am happy to give it an even chance of being either Elsecaller or Willshaper. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emailanimal Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 On 11/16/2017 at 0:34 PM, Beatsmorn said: I think this will be something about deciding arbitrary WHO to protect, like Skybreakers decide arbitrary which code to they follow. It was mentioned in epigraphs, what those who Orders weren't so distinct as they thought. Based on Oathbringer, they really aren't. Nale and the rest of them are dealing with the same issue Kaladin is dealing with (even when Kal does not know The Secret That Broke The Knights Radiant), which is the morality/righteousness of the cause of the humans vs. the cause of the singers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saloninus Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 I saw on the wiki that a "confirmed but subject to change" Ideal is: "I will stand when others fall." This could possibly fit? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
signspace13 Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 7 hours ago, GrooFudge said: I think the fourth ideal will be like a compliment of the third ideal, and it will lead Kaladin to kill Moash. "As long as it is right, I will kill those I love". THIS, though maybe not quite so aggressive, perhaps "I will protect those I have vowed too, even if they are threatened by those I love." this seems to be a Direct continuation of the third Ideal, because if he has agreed to "protect those he haters so long as it is right." then what if someone he hates is directly threatened by someone he loves? This shows in what happened when he froze, he couldn't choose a side to protect because he was too close to everyone involved, with Saa and Beard, Moash and Ehlohkar, he "loves" or at least sympathises with all of them and couldn't see who he was supposed to protect, which in the situation should have been Ehlohkar who he told Dalinar he would protect with his life. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emailanimal Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, saloninus said: I saw on the wiki that a "confirmed but subject to change" Ideal is: "I will stand when others fall." This could possibly fit? This sounds like the Second Ideal of Skybreakers. [Edit.] Meant to write "of Stonewards". Edited November 19, 2017 by emailanimal 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lastofus Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 (edited) 55 minutes ago, saloninus said: I saw on the wiki that a "confirmed but subject to change" Ideal is: "I will stand when others fall." This could possibly fit? 4 minutes ago, emailanimal said: This sounds like the Second Ideal of Skybreakers. No, it has to be Stonewards. They are stubborn as storm. Talenelat always chose the worst place to fight, wining them against all odds and in most cases die in the process. Plus we already saw the second ideal of Skybreakers: Quote “I swear to seek justice, to let it guide me, until I find a more perfect Ideal.” Brandon Sanderson. Oathbringer (Kindle Location 17161). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. Edited November 19, 2017 by lastofus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emailanimal Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 9 minutes ago, lastofus said: has to be Stonewards. Yak. Of course it is the Second Ideal of Stonewards. Messed up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musica Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 18 hours ago, rhaiynebow said: I really like the idea that the fourth ideal will be along the lines of honoring the dead by protecting the living or accepting failure in order to move on...but thinking about the fact that he gets plate with fourth ideal and the fact that he tends to protect people with little to no regard for his own safety, could it be "I will protect myself first, so that I may protect others"? That would fit with the windrunner epigrah, and with the flashback with Nalma(?) where she was telling him to go and leave her so he wouldn't get caught, and in Shadesmar where they were surrounded by the fused (protect himself and the others from the fused as an immediate threat to himself vs. going to try to save Dalinar). Maybe "I will protect others, but not at the cost of my life"? Btw, not sure it's the right place to ask but- we don't know about the time before the Recreance, but at least at the present it is safe to assume Nale is the only one who has reached the 5th Ideal. I know he probably joined his own Order only after the KR "disbanded", but do you think maybe our main cast, who are the the most likely to reach the final Ideal eventually, will take the Heralds' place in the Oathpact? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 I thought his oath was going to be "I will not dwell on my failures, but learn from them" right up until Dalinar's oath. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenet Posted November 19, 2017 Report Share Posted November 19, 2017 I love this topic, and I was pondering on it through the book and afterwards, thank you all for meaningful suggestions. My thoughts are: The windrunners are leaders. Leaders must first and foremost protect others, also the ones they don't like or hate. But what comes after that? When you are promoted? Then it is impossible to protect everyone personally. You must delegate. You must also make decisions that will lead to people getting killed because of your decision. You must make decicions like the one Amaram claimed he had made, doing something you hate, because it is for the greater good. I think perhaps the three first ideals are there to ensure that you only get leaders that are actually there to protect people. And so that when they are really promoted, and become officers, not just squad leaders, they wil not become like Amaram, but like Dalinar (the "modern day" version). But in order to become an officer, you cannot deal in details. You cannot save everyone personally. I feel that the ideal must be something that challenges your ability to protect from a larger perspective, and that you are able to let go of the small scale and embrace the larger one. Kaladin is very reluctant to accept the land that Dalinar tells him is his own to protect. He says he does not want that burden. I feel it is right to choose only that kind of leaders that think of power as a burden, and not something to long for. But they must be able to embrace the power. So, what is there in Kaladin that makes him detest being an officer. A lighteyes? Is it the fact that he needs to trust his own judgement? That he must make decicions that will end up in someone being killed? That he must choose, on a higher level. The ideal in itself need not mention all of this, just sort of rip apart the thing in you that stops you from embracing the power. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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