[OB] Full Book Reactions / Full Spoilers Thread

[the winter system]

47 minutes ago, Bridge Boy said:

@Harbour It seemed pretty clearly implied to me that all three figmented projections of Shallan are pieces of who she really is but not actually her true self and that includes the projection of herself that we are introduced to as she is seeking Jasnah in WoK. 

So to me, as touchy feely as the ending was where Adolin is able to identify Shallan's "true self" it just further emphasizes that he doesn't understand her at.

But in fairness to Adolin, how in damnation could he? Her personal issues are shrouded in more mystery and pattern mmmmmming lies than the secrets of all the mad heralds combined. 

Adolin is a good dude. Quite frankly, he and Kaladin both deserve better than Shallan can offer in her current state.

I'd hate the storyline where one of them saves her from her personal issues. Those are her issues, they cannot have them; she needs to save herself.

@SLNC My bad. I'll look for the new thread.

Hoid in this book making Shallan feel better was so... weird. Yet totally in character? And really emotional? Like? What's with him and being a good person? 
(when's book 4 gonna come out?)

[Pattern]

1 hour ago, winter devotion said:

Shallan really needs a hug. And the person who gives it to her is... Hoid? I was so confused by that, like I kept texting my friends "HE'S BEIGN NICE? WHY IS HE BEING NICE?" 

Hoid has always been nice to Shallan.
It was a scene I hoped for and when it came it hit me really hard. As I've said elsewhere, "The Girl Who Stood Up" is my absolute favourite chapter.

1 hour ago, Mulk said:

assuming I understand the question properly, he's Honor now.  He was able to force Honor's perpendicularity to manifest at a certain place, able to recharge gems with Stormlight though it is difficult for him...for all intents and purposes he is now Honor.

If Dalinar indeed ascended, he is Unity now. Odium seems to recognize him as Honor "We have killed you", but I think Dalinars Intent differs from Honor.

[the winter system]

1 minute ago, Pattern said:

Hoid has always been nice to Shallan.
It was a scene I hoped for and when it came it hit me really hard. As I've said elsewhere, "The Girl Who Stood Up" is my absolute favourite chapter.

If Dalinar indeed ascended, he is Unity now. Odium seems to recognize him as Honor "We have killed you", but I think Dalinars Intent differs from Honor.

Yeah, I knew that but this really made it seem more than Hoid just using her for his own plans. He actually is friends with her. And? Also? I hope Shallan becomes a worldhopper at the end of this. 

Yeah, Unity seems actually to be a bit of cultivation and honor-- cultivating honor into unity.

[Mulk]

21 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Hoid has always been nice to Shallan.
It was a scene I hoped for and when it came it hit me really hard. As I've said elsewhere, "The Girl Who Stood Up" is my absolute favourite chapter.

If Dalinar indeed ascended, he is Unity now. Odium seems to recognize him as Honor "We have killed you", but I think Dalinars Intent differs from Honor.

He may refer to himself that way, but the Shard he took up is Honor.  He can't change its Intent.  He's merely new enough to it that it hasn't overtaken his personality.  Now, maybe Dalinar is quite a bit stronger willed than the other Shard holders and will hold out longer.  That's entirely possible.  But he still can't change the Shard's Intent, only affect the way it is interpreted.  So, at least for the time being we have an Honor who interprets honor to be all things good and right and upstanding, and not Honor for honor's sake bereft of all context (say, Szeth pre-death/heal), which seems to be what all of the Shards become eventually, their overriding Intent without context or meaning. If Sazed is immune (not that I think he is, but he seems...fairly Sazed-y in the epigraphs) it's because his Intents are so opposed that they cannot override who he is without first overriding each other.

On an unrelated note, who really needs to bump into Mr. T now is Szeth. What would also be interesting is if Dalinar is enough Honor to have sensed what happened to Jezrien, or if the connection to Honor that the Heralds had is broken completely.  I doubt it is, but even if Dalinar felt it he might not know what it means.

[Pattern]

2 minutes ago, Mulk said:

He may refer to himself that way, but the Shard he took up is Honor.

Dalinar did not really take up Honor. Honor is vastly splintered, think of all the Honorspren that are separate. So Dalinar at best just got parts of him. Additionally Dalinar has the touch of Cultivation on him, so a merging of Investitures and the changing of Intent should be possible.

[Leyrann]

Let's be real though, there's no way Dalinar has taken up Honor fully. For one, we've seen what that's like in Mistborn - you basically stop using your physical body and instead become a near-omniscient being that can see everything that happens on the planet and can effortlessly make huge changes like the radius of the planet's orbit - Dalinar would've obliterated that pityful army Odium had if he had received all of Honor's power. I think that a much better way to describe it would be that Dalinar has taken up some Splinters of Honor. He'll probably take up more and more though, until at some point indeed he is Honor.

As for Sazed, the question is probably "how long does it take before an Intent overrides the Vessel?" I saw some speculation somewhere today that Honor changed before the Recreance because the Intent finally fully overrided Tanavast's will. That would mean it takes thousands of years.

EDIT: Ninja'd by @Pattern

Edit: Gonna continue for a bit though... What if someone were to take up all three of Honor, Cultivation and Passion (Odium)? We'd have an honorable, passionate Shard aiming for the growth of the people on the planet... That's a god I could personally live with.

Edited November 15, 2017 by Leyrann

[redgarlic68]

Just came here and logged in because I felt the need to vent/squee somewhere. I'm at work after spending all afternoon and night reading this book (hadn't read Part 1 to avoid spoilers...) and here are my opinions:

- WoR>OB=WoK

- I know Brandon always says that these books are five books into one, but for some reason I felt the divide being starker in this one. Like, each part was more independent from the others (save part 5) that in the other 2 books. Having said that, the HSQ was through the roof with this one (I remember having read like 15% and feeling amazed at EVERYTHING that had happened so far!), and I think some of the backslash towards this book will come from the resolution of many of the mysteries that could be expected to be solved until later. Also, as a Kaladin fangirl I actually missed a grand finale for him... that part actually went to Dalinar with the Ascencion (and it was glorious)

Things I liked:

 - Kaladin's parents being alive AND meeting him (and the little brother awww). 

 - Renarin's interactions with Bridge 4 were great. 

 - I was totally dumbfounded by some of the twists, aka Elhokar's death, Renarin's true spren and Dalinar's backstory/being Odium's champion. 

 - Hoid helping Shallan keep herself together was really nice. 

 - I find myself liking Adolin more now than before. Same Elhokar (obviously). 

 - Shadesmar's adventure! Especially Syl trying to hide herself from the rest, and the spren/human interactions. 

 - The letters were great. 

- But the prize to best epigraphs (to me) were the Radiant's Confessional. I mean, some of those recordings were so... normal. Like something anyone would say (some of them preferably in a reality show confessional ) 

Things I didn't like

 - The resolution to the love triangle.

 - Moash. I mean, I liked his arc but seeing the perspective of an human who willingly went to the parshs like that, and more someone we knew, was quite disturbing to say the least. 

- How Szeth was reintroduced. It seemed too sudden, maybe interludes would have been better. 

- Amaram. That storyline should have endedin WoR.

Things I realized until here:

- Vivenna. Storms, how could I miss it?????????? Wonder what she'll do when she finds them (which is now easier by being both in the same place and knowing he tought Adolin and Kaladin). 

-  Renarin's spren being the son of the simpathetic Unmade. 

Questions left to answer:

- How exactly the people from Irri were convinced to join.

- Why the Aimia islands are so protected

- How many scholars are actually portly old men (lol)

- More information about the voidspren (we've met four so far... what about the other 5?)

 

Something that seemed odd to me is how this attempt to discredit Dalinar included the reason of the Recreance as just one of the ways of attack. I would have expected something that important to be more relevant than that, it would seem it had the same weight in the narrative as the Highking fiasco and "we saw him with Odium as therefore they're working together!!!". Even when Kaladin discovers it... he doesn't even stop to think about it. Hopefully more is forthcoming. 

Edited November 15, 2017 by redgarlic68

[Mulk]

6 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Dalinar did not really take up Honor. Honor is vastly splintered, think of all the Honorspren that are separate. So Dalinar at best just got parts of him. Additionally Dalinar has the touch of Cultivation on him, so a merging of Investitures and the changing of Intent should be possible.

It's possible.  I fully grant (and expect) that Dalinar doesn't have access to all of Honor, that any reassembly which can be done of the Shard is incomplete at best.  Nonetheless, this is who Odium recognized him as.  Odium was shocked beyond belief. I find that a powerful argument that he is, for all intents and purposes, Honor and stands in the place of Tanavast, even if only imperfectly or partially.  He had the ability to manifest the perpendicularity, to refresh the Stormlight reserves...and while he may have a very small piece of Cultivation (and of Odium) roaming around inside, the bulk of who He is is Honor.  At least, right now, it is.

Wild one off - what if Dalinar eventually becomes our first three-way Shard? Honor, Cultivation & Odium? I hasten to add I seriously doubt this probability as I doubt he'll be able to do more than drive Odium off, at least in the first five.  It is an intriguing possibility though. I wonder how those three would interact together; how they would inform and change each others, giving a context previously lacking.

[Pattern]

5 minutes ago, Mulk said:

Wild one off - what if Dalinar eventually becomes our first three-way Shard? Honor, Cultivation & Odium? I hasten to add I seriously doubt this probability as I doubt he'll be able to do more than drive Odium off, at least in the first five.  It is an intriguing possibility though. I wonder how those three would interact together; how they would inform and change each others, giving a context previously lacking.

In answer to this, I go with @Leyrann:

16 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Gonna continue for a bit though... What if someone were to take up all three of Honor, Cultivation and Passion (Odium)? We'd have an honorable, passionate Shard aiming for the growth of the people on the planet... That's a god I could personally live with.

Edit: I have to stop following the conversation now. First I burnt oil in a pan, now rice water boiled over. Have to clean up now. Distractions...

Edited November 15, 2017 by Pattern

[Mulk]

lol. ninja'ed by Leyrann.  I took about 15 minutes to type out my reply to you while at work and it got in when I didn't notice.  I have to head out myself and concentrate a bit more on work.

[Ryshadium]

I don’t post here often, but read regularly, and enjoy all the amazing insights regular posters have.

Is Dalinar’s quest to “unite them” possibly about uniting the three Shards on Roshar? Or was it about uniting the Three Realms?

A mission to unite the Shards would be rather interesting to follow...

 

[Enlightenment]

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

If Dalinar indeed ascended, he is Unity now. Odium seems to recognize him as Honor "We have killed you", but I think Dalinars Intent differs from Honor.

I wonder who are the "we" in that statement...  A crazy thought, but could it be that Odium is referring to Adonalsium there? The one thing the Shattering of Adonalsium could have served is to destroy unity... 

[Reborn radiant]

The best thing I loved about this book was how really conflicting it was. On one hand , parshendi, even the insane fused, have legit reasons to wage wars aginst humans. And humans have reasons to fight too. I really liked the aspect of the book, easily the favorite part. 
I didn't like how fast everyone reacted to it tho, I didn't think it would cause that much of a reaction.

[Ryshadium]

18 minutes ago, Enlightenment said:

I wonder who are the "we" in that statement...  A crazy thought, but could it be that Odium is referring to Adonalsium there? The one thing the Shattering of Adonalsium could have served is to destroy unity... 

The “we” definitely seems to refer to a group. I don’t think Rayse utilizes the Royal We like whoever wrote the one letter to Hoid (presumably Bavadin). 

I had not considered that he was referring to Adonalsium, but it’s quite possible that Odium saw some sort of reunification occurring with whatever happened with Dalinar (did he Ascend? If so, it certainly wasn’t how we saw it in Mistborn)

[Leyrann]

3 minutes ago, Ryshadium said:

The “we” definitely seems to refer to a group. I don’t think Rayse utilizes the Royal We like whoever wrote the one letter to Hoid (presumably Bavadin). 

I had not considered that he was referring to Adonalsium, but it’s quite possible that Odium saw some sort of reunification occurring with whatever happened with Dalinar (did he Ascend? If so, it certainly wasn’t how we saw it in Mistborn)

I think it's as simple as "he ascended but only had a fraction of a full Shard's power to ascend with because Honor is shattered".

[dionysus]

53 minutes ago, Ryshadium said:

I don’t post here often, but read regularly, and enjoy all the amazing insights regular posters have.

Is Dalinar’s quest to “unite them” possibly about uniting the three Shards on Roshar? Or was it about uniting the Three Realms?

A mission to unite the Shards would be rather interesting to follow...

 

I honestly don't think so. The final shard would still be unbalanced and hateful. In this book we learn Honor is more about bonds than moral code, and Cultivation is pruning and growth through experience. You would need a shard more directly opposed to Odium, something like Peace, Love, Calmness, or even Logic. So combining all three would not temper Odium like (Mistborn Spoilers): 

Spoiler

combining Ruin and Preservation which are direct opposites.

In fact, I think that would make Odium's threat to the Cosmere worse as the shard would be so powerful.

Edited November 15, 2017 by dionysus

[Ryshadium]

3 minutes ago, dionysus said:

I honestly don't think so. The final shard would still be unbalanced and hateful. In this book we learn Honor is more about bonds than moral code, and Cultivation is pruning and growth through experience. You would need a shard more directly opposed to Odium, something like Peace, Love, Calmness, or even Logic. So combining all three would not temper Odium like (Mistborn Spoilers): 

  Hide contents

combining Ruin and Preservation which are direct opposites.

In fact, I think that would make Odium's threat to the Cosmere worse as the shard would be so powerful.

Very good point. Though Odium seems to think that his intent is more about passion and emotion vs pure hate. If Rayse was already kind of a jerk, could that have affected how he managed the Shard’s intent? In other words, would a different Shardholder of Odium have been as hateful as Rayse was? If there’s flexibility there, uniting the three could provide balance as someone noted above.

All that being said, I’m not sure I event believe this, but it’s an interesting thing to think about, especially in regard to the Cosmere as a whole. 

[Leyrann]

8 minutes ago, dionysus said:

I honestly don't think so. The final shard would still be unbalanced and hateful. In this book we learn Honor is more about bonds than moral code, and Cultivation is pruning and growth through experience. So combining all through would not temper Odium like (Mistborn Spoilers): 

  Reveal hidden contents

combining Ruin and Preservation which are direct opposites.

In fact, I think that would make Odium's threat to the Cosmere worse as the shard would be so powerful.

The thing is, Odium is more than just hate. That's the big Cosmere twist we've seen in this book. We assumed it was hate (which honestly was what we were told in-universe), but that was because the Shard's intent is filtered through Rayse's personality, which wasn't the nicest. Additionally, even when we still assumed that Odium was pure hate, people already theorized that an Honor+Odium shard would be "Justice", as someone who hates those who are dishonorable. Knowing that the Shard's Intent is not simply hate but rather Passion, however, and simply interpreted in a bad way because of who is holding it, it may not be as destructive as it looks to us. I would argue that someone like Dalinar, who is pretty strong-willed (let's be real...) and also holding Honor and Cultivation would be able to interpret Passion in a good way.

EDIT: From the First Letter, on Rayse: "Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous indivisuals I had ever met."

Edited November 15, 2017 by Leyrann

[IndigoAjah]

Dalinar has a part of Honor's power, and thus a part of his Intent, which is Unity, I think. Similarly, if Kal were in a similar position (impossible as his Spren is a less large and intimate bit of Honor, his powers are spread over more Windrunners etc) with a suitably placed Storm, being over the Singularity etc, he would form a Subshard called Protection, I think, and Shallan might be Imagination or something, Nalan Justice etc.

 

he's clearly not a Full Shard, but he can still be invested enough to Ascend, similar but different to TLR

[IndigoAjah]

10 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

The thing is, Odium is more than just hate. That's the big Cosmere twist we've seen in this book. We assumed it was hate (which honestly was what we were told in-universe), but that was because the Shard's intent is filtered through Rayse's personality, which wasn't the nicest. Additionally, even when we still assumed that Odium was pure hate, people already theorized that an Honor+Odium shard would be "Justice", as someone who hates those who are dishonorable. Knowing that the Shard's Intent is not simply hate but rather Passion, however, and simply interpreted in a bad way because of who is holding it, it may not be as destructive as it looks to us. I would argue that someone like Dalinar, who is pretty strong-willed (let's be real...) and also holding Honor and Cultivation would be able to interpret Passion in a good way.

EDIT: From the First Letter, on Rayse: "Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous indivisuals I had ever met."

To be fair, whilst I think it's likely true, Odium saying he is more than just hate is by definition a dubious source

[dionysus]

18 minutes ago, Ryshadium said:

Very good point. Though Odium seems to think that his intent is more about passion and emotion vs pure hate. If Rayse was already kind of a jerk, could that have affected how he managed the Shard’s intent? In other words, would a different Shardholder of Odium have been as hateful as Rayse was? If there’s flexibility there, uniting the three could provide balance as someone noted above.

All that being said, I’m not sure I event believe this, but it’s an interesting thing to think about, especially in regard to the Cosmere as a whole. 

I actually remarked the same thing on page 2 of this thread about Odiums intent. When Dalinar gets to see Odium, he notes it is about emotion. This is what Dalinar sees. "Burning. Overwhelming. Power. It as the scream of a thousand warriors on the battlefield. It was the moment of most sensual touch and ecstasy. It was the sorrow of loss, the joy of victory. And it was hatred. Deep, pulsing hatred with a pressure to turn all things molten. It was the heat of a thousand suns, it was the lives of all men wrapped up in one, defined by everything they felt."

Notice the emphasis on Power and Hatred. Hatred is the only emotion to get multiple lines dedicated to it. I posit that Odium is more than just hatred, but hatred is dominant. Also, other than joy and ecstasy, there is no mention of positive emotions like love, compassion, etc.

 

18 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

The thing is, Odium is more than just hate. That's the big Cosmere twist we've seen in this book. We assumed it was hate (which honestly was what we were told in-universe), but that was because the Shard's intent is filtered through Rayse's personality, which wasn't the nicest. Additionally, even when we still assumed that Odium was pure hate, people already theorized that an Honor+Odium shard would be "Justice", as someone who hates those who are dishonorable. Knowing that the Shard's Intent is not simply hate but rather Passion, however, and simply interpreted in a bad way because of who is holding it, it may not be as destructive as it looks to us. I would argue that someone like Dalinar, who is pretty strong-willed (let's be real...) and also holding Honor and Cultivation would be able to interpret Passion in a good way.

EDIT: From the First Letter, on Rayse: "Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous indivisuals I had ever met."

I can't argue against the idea that Odium might be just all emotions equally but Rayse focuses on hatred, though I think after such a long time Rayse's original personality would exist less and less according to WoB?

I actually find the combination of Honor and Odium to be scary. In this book the Stormfather mentions, I think a couple of times, that Honor was more about bonds than what is right and wrong especially near the end. I personally think that Honor's focus on morality came more from Tanavast than from the shard, just like you posit that the dominance of hatred comes from Rayse, not the shard. We also see this in the contradictory oaths different KR orders swear. It would be pretty frightening for humans to break an oath in a world governed by Odium+Honor shard.

Edited November 15, 2017 by dionysus

[Ryshadium]

2 minutes ago, dionysus said:

D It would be pretty frightening for humans to break an oath in a world governmented by Odium+Honor shard.

Especially with Nale involved. 

[Leyrann]

18 minutes ago, IndigoAjah said:

To be fair, whilst I think it's likely true, Odium saying he is more than just hate is by definition a dubious source

I actually went ahead and made a thread on it.

13 minutes ago, dionysus said:

I can't argue against the idea that Odium might be just all emotions equally but Rayse focuses on hatred, though I think after such a long time Rayse's original personality would exist less and less according to WoB?

WoB (second WoB) seems to imply to me that the Vessel does, to a certain extent, get to direct the Shard even after a long time.

[dionysus]

8 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I actually went ahead and made a thread on it.

WoB (second WoB) seems to imply to me that the Vessel does, to a certain extent, get to direct the Shard even after a long time.

Thanks. 

Here is the one I was thinking of.

And those were all way back, in the history. So, we know that the Shards' personalities overrides the Vessel's personality over time?

Brandon Sanderson

Strongly influence, and depending on the individual, override.

[CaptainRyan]

Well, it was worth the wait and lived up to the hype for sure. So much to cover, both in reactions and in this thread already. I have read everyone's responses btw.

First, reaction:
Fantastic book. Tons of new info that should keep up theorizing for a long, long time. So many amazing moments, scenes, and events. I literally read non-stop from 12:30am Tuesday to 8:30pm Tuesday. I ate one, small, meal during that time and read while I ate haha. 

Out of everything that happened I have to admit that the thing that stuck most with me, initially, is Jasnah Kholin being an unstoppable force of destruction. She was amazing in the battle of Thaylen City. Just amazing.

I was shocked but not shocked at Elhokar's death. Someone had to really die this book and while my money was on Dalinar, Elhokar makes sense. Brandon pushed all the right buttons in making Elhokar more likable before delivering the final blow. 

I was truly shocked that Eshonai was dead. I assumed she survived the fall (she did) but then drowning in the chasm... so storming sad. I am not 100% sold on Venli as a good enough replacement story-wise for Eshonai but I am willing to let that part play out before I render final judgement.

I wanted more from the "Adolin killed Sadeas" storyline. A lot more. That was such an unexpected, and powerful, moment in Words of Radiance and it felt super ignored in this book. Alas.

Ugh, so much more. I cannot even put it into words. I will be for sure joining many of the threads that I can feel coming haha

Second, thread responses:
I've seen a lot of people saying that what caused the Recreance is learning that human's are the real "Voidbringers". I thought it was more focused on the fact that Surgebinding is what destroyed the first homeworld of the/these humans combined with the fact that humans were historical aggressors. For Radiants fighting a Desolation that fact (destroy world) might be a bit less relevant but for the Radiants who lived during an era where they assumed the Desolations were over... well, they might have thought "Sheesh, if we keep Surgebinding we are going to destroy the world" and decide to give up their powers in such a way as to dissuade the spren from making them again.

I completely agree with @yulerule that we are missing a scene where everyone says "What is the storming Assassin in White doing here"?

I also agree with @Steeldancer that there are going to be some big set backs in book 4. Book 5 is going to need some decent set-up haha. The loss of Kholinar surprised me though. Pretty unexpected.

@Kk- you said "I assume that Uli Da was the shard Rayse had killed who we didn't know." earlier in the thread. I assumed that Uli Da was the name of Ambition's Vessel. You also said "Has Fortune been mentioned before? I vaguely remember it as something I wondered about after reading a previous book, but cannot place which." and I think you are thinking of [Mistborn spoilers ahead]...

Spoiler

The Feruchemical ability for Chromium [store Fortune]. See here

@Bridge Boy you mentioned "I'd hate the storyline where one of them saves her from her personal issues. Those are her issues, they cannot have them; she needs to save herself." earlier. I think people can help someone with these kind of issues. While the individual (Shallan) needs to be working towards a resolution in order to "get better", she can also, in my opinion, realistically receive a lot of help from other people. Having someone to confide in and support you (see Navani helping Dalinar when he had his breakdown) can be super helpful. Now, of course, Brandon would have to handle Adolin helping Shallan in a good way but I don't think Shallan needs to solo these issues.

@Pattern, you said "If Dalinar indeed ascended, he is Unity now. Odium seems to recognize him as Honor "We have killed you", but I think Dalinars Intent differs from Honor." and I don't quite agree. The Intents of the Shards, as far as I am aware, are set. Now, if Dalinar is a powerful splinter of Honor (which I think is what he has become) then Dalinar can do quite a bit more in terms of "Intent".