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[OB] Full Book Reactions / Full Spoilers Thread


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I have to say, I read the end of Part 3 and was pretty stunned. That was an awesome climax.

Nothing, though made me drop the book like I did...(spoiler for non-Oathbringer texts)

Spoiler

at the end of a certain Part 3 interlude

(pls remove if this isn't allowed under the spoiler policy)

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So, I downloaded this from Amazon at work, and spent most of the night responding to a gun scare and then my coworkers showing up late or not at all. I'd read the first book on Tor, and the audio interlude that came out Monday revealed the death of my favorite character. I pretty much read nonstop once I got home. I feel like my brain's been hit by a bus.

There were so many amazing moments here. I can't even pick a favorite. Everything Adolin. Everything Renarin. Everything Jasnah. The two of them together in the last book. Dalinar learning to read and write. Vivenna! Shallan and Hoid--I was really worried for her. Drehy, Skar, and Shallan's henchmen turning up with Elhokar's kid! I wondered about that poor kid the whole time the protagonists were protaging around and I was so relieved that he wasn't left behind. I. . .I don't even know where to start with the end battle. I'm still processing.

Favorite part was the relationships between siblings. Well-written sibling relationships are my favorite.

For a while, I really believed in Moash. Thought he would manage to pull back from the chasm. Dammit.

But Venli did. I wasn't expecting that.

I don't even know where I'm going with this, I just . . . Wow. Book.

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  • Yay vivenna!
  • Huh Eshonai's dead. I wonder if she's a next generation fused or something since her book is still coming right?
  • Odium was a better written and deeper villain than Ruin.
  • Elhokar dying was a real curveball. FeelsBadMan but as soon as he started acting like a competent leader I knew something was up. Brandon probably wanted him to end on a high note.
  • Barely any scenes of Vasher at all but this book still seems like it breaks Brandon's "stand-alone policy" with vivenna's probably-awakened sword and numerous references to Warbreaker.
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First, time posting, but just I have so many thoughts running through my head I feel like I need to write something. As per usual, the final chapters completely blew me away. Between all the different character arcs, I felt that some extra expansion could have been warranted. (Jasnah's emotion, Dalinar's resolve, the whole Amaram conflict, evil Taravangian :angry: were my favs.) Also I feel kinda bad for Renarin; poor kid just wants to do something right for once. Wit's role was fantastic, especially his interactions with Shallan.

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The main feeling I got by the end of the book was that it felt like most of the serious mysteries or hanging threads were 'solved', and many of them in a somewhat unsatisfying way: It's almost like the end of a trilogy instead of being in the middle of the series.

- Helaran's death did... what, exactly? This definitely ended with a whimper.

- The love triangle seemed to add very little to the story, besides emphasizing Shallan's split nature. There were plenty of other more interesting ways to show that, though. Combines with Helaran being a non-issue.

- Cause of the Recreance - which, despite what Taravangian seems to have thought, accomplishes basically nothing. It's especially egregious since Kaladin's early experience already leads him to look for a way for both sides to coexist. I have to hope there's something more to this that we're missing, because as it stands it's a puzzler. But it's written as if the mystery is completely solved, based on how Taravangian/Nalan seem to treat the 'revelation'. Nalan's reaction is especially weird, since according to the Stormfather, this 'truth' was rediscovered multiple time (which makes it mind boggling how Nalan could not have known about it pre-Recreance).

- Taravangian's position is pretty well established.

- Elhokar's death seems to resolve a lot of issues and in a lot of ways seems to close out Moash's storyline, despite the events at the end of the book. At this point he's almost a new character.

- Likewise Venli's arc seems pretty clear at this point.

- The Unbound seem well characterized now, without many 'big' mysteries remaining, as well as rest of Odium's forces.

- Speaking of Odium, now that we've gotten a fair bit of scenes with him, it feels like a lot of the mystery/fear is gone. Especially as we see some of his limitations and restrictions near the end (particularly Taravangian's conversation).

- Nightwatcher/Cultivation scene also establishes them to some degree, their relationship, and what the Old magic is about.

- Dalinar, of course. Pretty much answers everything about his past.

- Also about This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules is going on with Renarin.

- Whole thing about squires/Radiants since we see Skybreakers and Bridge Four developing.

- Jasnah's sections seem to answer a lot of questions.

- Much better grasp of how things work in the Cognitive Realm.

- And all the main characters are kind of assembled at this point, except maybe Venli, and even she's connected to Dalinar at this point (or maybe Connected).

I'm not saying everything is answered (among other things, spren reproduction, how the Oathpact really, truly works and A Surprise Pattern Appears! at the end) but overall the remaining issues feel a lot less epic. Probably the one big outstanding thing is what the Ghostblood really are, but they had so little impact on this book that it almost feels like an afterthought.

 

Nonetheless, much of the book was still quite, quite good. My favorite section is probably the infiltration of Kholinar - it really showcases the characters involved. I like Elhokar's character development (especially how parts of it doesn't develop), and how Kaladin always seems to end up adopting a band of misfits and leading them (almost supernatural...). Adolin's likeability almost seems like it might be a trait (if he's a proto-Edgedancer, maybe it's something they have in general).

Also really loved most of Jasnah's scenes. Appropriately badass, though I think in a couple of places I think her harshness was overly played up - specifically the scene where she argues with Kaladin about potentially making peace with the Parshmen. She seems to dismiss this idea rather quickly despite not having a lot of information (and as the reader we know this is a pretty obvious solution to the Fused problem, given the Fused require willing vessels to return). Still, she demonstrates Quadratic Wizards, Linear Fighters pretty nicely at Thaylen City and by not killing Renarin she may have long-term screwed up Odium's planning capability - so, badass.

 

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Well, Hoid's is well on his way to having most of the powers. Also, Hoid's and a spreadsheet that likes lies - scary combination.

I never liked Moash - still, he disappointed  me.

Hah - I thought Elhokar would become a KR. I didn't think he'd die though.

I was wrong about who wrote the epigraphs in part 1.

I really don't like Mr. T.

Renarin is really upsetting people's plans.

So. Everybody was rooting for Eshoni to be alive, and yet we got Venli as the KR. With a form of power as well. And it seems one of the Unmade might be an ally, and Glys is an ally. I wonder how a corrupted spren differs?

Only Nale attracted a spren of his own order? Even though he's with the enemy, I'm feeling sympathetic.

Adolin is well on his way to awakening Maya. I don't think he's quite Edgedancer material, he just has a close connection to his blade. Being in Shadesmar helped. 

I feel Nightblood drove Szeth to make good decisions.

I wonder where humans came from, and more about bringing Odium.

What order is that comet spren, anyway? It can be  Skybreakers, Dustbringers,  Willshapers, or stoneward. I think it's a willshaper.

Oh, Spiritual Adhesion. I think there's probably versions of each surge per Realm. I have no Idea what Spiritual/Cognitive Gravitation/etc would be like. Wait ... Spiritual Division sounds horrifying. 

Edited by yulerule
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8 hours ago, dionysus said:

2. I also concur with others that there is no way that is the sole reason for the Recreance. We have been told on several occasions, by heralds even, that without Honor to regulate the surges they are extremely dangerous. I think this is world ending levels of danger and we don't know the full story on that. Our main characters basically shrug off the revelation of the long-ago guilt of humanity, and I think that is a normal reaction. So my theory is that you had a combination of 1) revelation humanity is not historically the good guys, 2) revelation that your existence does in fact endanger Existence, and 3) Honor, according to the Stormfather, was in the process of being splintered and was raving and adding to the Radiants confusion.

3. The name of Odium definitely does not encompass all he is. He seems to be all emotion but with a particular focus on hatred. Also the feeding or absorbing of emotion, is that just how he entices people are is that inherent to his shard?

2. I think you're wrong. Kaladin told Syl that discarding blade and plate was kind of ceremonial. Without the listeners to fight they had nothing going forward. They lost their vision. They didn't have any reminder of the dangers and the relative safety of humankind. Only Skybreakers remained BECAUSE there's still law to follow. I could be wrong of courses.

3. I don't think Odium is hatred. It sounds more like fate, or will. The creatures are all instruments of the God, everything we do is foreseen and foretold. We don't have a choice and cannot change our path. Everything we do is because of the God. I don't really buy Odium having the shard of Hatred. I think it's more Determinism or Fatalism, probably the former.

Changed my mind to undecided, but what the hell is wrong with him? Asking for Determinism or Fatalism? How can hatred be a void? It's already an emotion. This doesn't make sense. And of course I am pretty sure about Determinism, he tells Dalinar that it's all his fault. Amaram is free of guilt because he had no choice... .

 

@Argent

Now that we know about Renarin, can you point out to what you had figured out before but wasn't allowed to say? 

 

Come to think of it, this book didn't satisfy me really. There's so much unknown and the Theylen city fight was ... unfulfilling. I could've died with Kaladin scenes or Adolin, Maya, Taln (Almighty why...), specially the part where Stormfather weeped. Really I cannot pick anyone who wouldn't emotionally drained me, But I got taken away from all of them. 

Edited by lastofus
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1 hour ago, Seloun said:

The main feeling I got by the end of the book was that it felt like most of the serious mysteries or hanging threads were 'solved', and many of them in a somewhat unsatisfying way: It's almost like the end of a trilogy instead of being in the middle of the series.

I have to agree here, I think this and the number of viewpoints in the climax make me disagree with the pre-reviews I read that said this book was the best so far (I mean I also slightly preferred TWoK to WoR, which doesn't seem to be the consensus). I also really like Kaladin and this book was a lot of set up for him without much resolution, admittedly this was probably necessary to avoid every book being 'Kaladin says an oath and kicks chull' at the end.

1 hour ago, Seloun said:

Helaran's death did... what, exactly? This definitely ended with a whimper.

Yeah, I believe Shallan thought about it precisely once around Kaladin? When you compare that to her reaction to Amaram (who was respected by everyone at the time) there's quite the disconnect there for me.

1 hour ago, Seloun said:

The love triangle seemed to add very little to the story, besides emphasizing Shallan's split nature. There were plenty of other more interesting ways to show that, though. Combines with Helaran being a non-issue.

Heh, I agree. I also did not get the impression previously that we were being set up for that in WoR. Sure people theorised when Shallan's personalities became more prominent in the preview chapters but this seems like quite a cop out to me. Idk combining it with Shallan choosing Adolin because he knows her, which if you step back a book was the opposite (I mean even in OB that safehand scene has only Kaladin work out what she did). I personally wonder if Brandon made cuts because the love triangle angle was not popular with readers, if this was the case I question the need for it at all, there was quite a lot of Veil->Kaladin in this book and I don't understand why you'd have that much and then rush the conclusion.

1 hour ago, Seloun said:

Cause of the Recreance... Nalan's reaction is especially weird, since according to the Stormfather, this 'truth' was rediscovered multiple time (which makes it mind boggling how Nalan could not have known about it pre-Recreance).

I agree again. I think the most important part for Taravangian/the KR was the revelation that Surgebinding destroyed their previous planet. Now this might be enough to cause them to set it aside when it's been 2000 years since the last desolation and they show no sign of starting again, but in a situation where there's a huge threat in Odium I don't really understand why anyone would expect the KR to not use any weapons they have available.

I also agree and wonder how on earth Nale didn't know who the original voidbringers were, or perhaps he's been working for the Singers for a long time?

1 hour ago, Seloun said:

Taravangian's position is pretty well established.

Sure, although I expected more from the diagram, unless Taravangian has a bigger plan he just rolled over (I'm hoping the former tbh). Odium clearly wanted Taravangian's assistance, it was discussed in blatant terms in the scene, which makes the claim that Odium will only negotiate with Stupid!Taravangian rather suspect to me. I guess I just don't really buy that the Diagram is so complex that it could predict events years and years into the future but not account for Odium potentially hardballing negotiations.

This does tie in with people wondering if empathy is how Taravangian has the capacity to save the world rather than his intelligence, I hope there's something more here.

1 hour ago, Seloun said:

The Unbound seem well characterized now, without many 'big' mysteries remaining, as well as rest of Odium's forces.

I disgree here, we haven't seen them all and that Unbound that helps Shallan/co (and presumably corrupted Glys) has a bunch of possibilities.

I have a couple more things that I feel were glossed over when I expected them not to be:

  • Adolin's murder of Sadeas - had a whole 2 paragraphs or so of ramifications for Adolin's character.
  • I didn't particularly like how Amaram was handled, it seems like we are moving on to the Unbound being the big threats, but that makes me question why have Kaladin develop past Amaram only to give him a powerup to make him relevant and then kill him off. Idk, it wasn't particularly satisfying for me to see Amaram basically be the poster boy for what would have happened to Dalinar (especially considering Moash also fills this role).
Edited by Mr Horrible
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Oh! Delayed realization - the Pattern that Hoid's takes/saves/finds is the one meant for Elhokar.

I actually didn't get why Kaladin was unable to say the Fourth Ideal - it seems he knows what it should be, but isn't ready to believe it?

I feel we're missing a scene where Szeth and Dalinar talk.

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4 minutes ago, yulerule said:

I actually didn't get why Kaladin was unable to say the Fourth Ideal - it seems he knows what it should be, but isn't ready to believe it?

I think it's about accepting that some people he leads will die or fighting for the living, Kaladin clearly still has issues surrounding this. I guess somewhat ironically, accepting that people will die and progressing through the windrunner ideals would make Kaladin more capable of saving people.

Edit: it was also implied pretty strongly that if Kaladin spoke the fourth ideal then Adolin would survive.

Edited by Mr Horrible
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32 minutes ago, Mr Horrible said:

I think it's about accepting that some people he leads will die or fighting for the living, Kaladin clearly still has issues surrounding this. I guess somewhat ironically, accepting that people will die and progressing through the windrunner ideals would make Kaladin more capable of saving people.

Edit: it was also implied pretty strongly that if Kaladin spoke the fourth ideal then Adolin would survive.

Adolin? You mean Elhokar?

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2 minutes ago, Mr Horrible said:

I mean Adolin, it was when they were in Shadesmar and Adolin was wounded, Syl was pushing Kaladin to say the words and he couldn't.

I think that had more to do with them in general surviving, so to say. Kaladin had been wanting to use the 'blast' from saying the words that he got every time to kill the Fused, if I'm not mistaken.

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Overall really enjoyed the read, some threads I felt weren't closed perfectly but that will always happen, overall thought a lot were done well and some might not be so closed, lack of GB action disappointied me a bit but we have time enough in the series for that, on a personal note I thought Kaladin not saying the 4th oath was a fantastic touch and will make him eventually saying it all the sweeter, the time with Bridge 4 was also appreciated. I also think it speaks to how much we love the world and characters that there was still so much more we wanted despite the monstrous size of the book.

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For me it was a good book: clearly a few ideas mirroring Mistborn but used in a different enough way to remain interesting. Interesting things to say on colonialism and the arrival into the new world, and both sides of conflict, which are new themes for Sanderson. 

 

A lot borrowed from Wheel of Time as well, but again I think the direct and the characters used are fundamentally different enough that we will see significantly  different results to similar problems faced by our heroes. It certainly seems that Odium's ability to harm, like the Dark One, is largely linked to people giving him permission to do so. I wonder if that's needed to Splinter as well? The frame of mind of Shallan makes me worry that she in particular could be vulnerable to manipulation into allowing him to do this.

 

in terms of too many revelations too soon for the series- I am fairly sure that a lot of this book's revelations, in Sanderson style, will be very misleading and there is a lot to discover still. Certainly, how the original humans were surgebinding pre-Roshar and exactly how Surgebinding works as an interaction between Shards is now very interesting. 

 

 

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42 minutes ago, Mr Horrible said:

I think it's about accepting that some people he leads will die or fighting for the living, Kaladin clearly still has issues surrounding this. I guess somewhat ironically, accepting that people will die and progressing through the windrunner ideals would make Kaladin more capable of saving people.

Edit: it was also implied pretty strongly that if Kaladin spoke the fourth ideal then Adolin would survive.

I'm not sure it was- I think he would have to have let go of Adolin to contextualise the Words

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58 minutes ago, Mr Horrible said:

 

Yeah, I believe Shallan thought about it precisely once around Kaladin? When you compare that to her reaction to Amaram (who was respected by everyone at the time) there's quite the disconnect there for me.

Heh, I agree. I also did not get the impression previously that we were being set up for that in WoR. Sure people theorised when Shallan's personalities became more prominent in the preview chapters but this seems like quite a cop out to me. Idk combining it with Shallan choosing Adolin because he knows her, which if you step back a book was the opposite (I mean even in OB that safehand scene has only Kaladin work out what she did). I personally wonder if Brandon made cuts because the love triangle angle was not popular with readers, if this was the case I question the need for it at all, there was quite a lot of Veil->Kaladin in this book and I don't understand why you'd have that much and then rush the conclusion.

I agree again. I think the most important part for Taravangian/the KR was the revelation that Surgebinding destroyed their previous planet. Now this might be enough to cause them to set it aside when it's been 2000 years since the last desolation and they show no sign of starting again, but in a situation where there's a huge threat in Odium I don't really understand why anyone would expect the KR to not use any weapons they have available.

I also agree and wonder how on earth Nale didn't know who the original voidbringers were, or perhaps he's been working for the Singers for a long time?

Sure, although I expected more from the diagram, unless Taravangian has a bigger plan he just rolled over (I'm hoping the former tbh). Odium clearly wanted Taravangian's assistance, it was discussed in blatant terms in the scene, which makes the claim that Odium will only negotiate with Stupid!Taravangian rather suspect to me. I guess I just don't really buy that the Diagram is so complex that it could predict events years and years into the future but not account for Odium potentially hardballing negotiations.

This does tie in with people wondering if empathy is how Taravangian has the capacity to save the world rather than his intelligence, I hope there's something more here.

I disgree here, we haven't seen them all and that Unbound that helps Shallan/co (and presumably corrupted Glys) has a bunch of possibilities.

I have a couple more things that I feel were glossed over when I expected them not to be:

  • Adolin's murder of Sadeas - had a whole 2 paragraphs or so of ramifications for Adolin's character.
  • I didn't particularly like how Amaram was handled, it seems like we are moving on to the Unbound being the big threats, but that makes me question why have Kaladin develop past Amaram only to give him a powerup to make him relevant and then kill him off. Idk, it wasn't particularly satisfying for me to see Amaram basically be the poster boy for what would have happened to Dalinar (especially considering Moash also fills this role).

I'm not sure that we have seen the end to any of these issues, Sanderson's characters tend to carry issues across books and lapse into them at unexpected times, much like real people would 

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3 minutes ago, Mr Horrible said:

damnation, that's pretty harsh of Syl then.

Although I guess she can hardly know that Dalinar is about to go super saiyan.

That's just my impression, based on little other than gut feeling and the sense of doom around the situation and Kal's unwillingness to find the words

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Hmm guys, need help. Am I reading too much into this?

Spoiler

He squinted down at Shallan and Adolin, and found that he couldn’t be bitter. He didn’t feel resignation either. Instead he felt … agreement?

I think Kaladin is just some steps from attuning .. 

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45 minutes ago, Stormbless said:

Im thinking maybe Kaladin x Jasnah would be an ideal match??

Imagine how Kaladin's parents would react to that... Not only is he a Knight Radiant - a leader at that - but he also marries the queen of Alekhtar who also happens to be one of the most respected scholars in the world.

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