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[OB] Full Book Reactions / Full Spoilers Thread

829 posts in this topic

7 hours ago, Fulminato said:

the fused are powered by odium, and we see they can use the surge (gravitation and abrasion for sure). a surgebind is a bond between a man and a spren. the spren saw the honorbalde (honor sliver give to the heralds) and mimicked them.

It's a bit questionable to say that surgebinds are a bond between a man and a Spren because Surgebinding (to surgebind presumably) is the act of manipulating the surges (natural forces exterior to the shards or Spren) and Heralds can do that without a bond with a Spren (so can anyone with an Honorblade)

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2 hours ago, Housedunn said:

So let me get this straight:

Bridge 4 and Bridge 13 are not wind runners. 

Kaladin, Teft, Rock, Lopen, Skar, and Drehy are all full radiants

and Bridge 13 is Teft's squires

I'm not convinced Skar and Drehy have bonded spren. Kaladin notes when he meets them that Drehy has cuts on his face and Skar looks like he hadn't slept in weeks, which means they haven't healed with stormlight. Also, they have practiced lashings as squires, so they could have flown back to the oathgate if they were full radiants. It's possible they had no stormlight for the duration of their multi-week trip from Kholinar to the coast where Kal found them, but the merchant they were with had a functioning spanreed which requires an infused ruby. I think they are still squires and needed his presence to use stormlight.

Also, he mentioned having all his squires speak the first ideal back in Part 2, so it makes sense that they may have spoken the second ideal without bonding their own spren, or follow the same ideals their radiant.

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11 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

@Fulminato

Presumably they use surge binding for anything of that type, like chicken for any bird, so it could be drastically different from the surge binding we see.

Also, this could be post god swap that this quote is referring to, it seems implied to be as much due to the fuzed being implied to have been created by Odium.

Yeah, you may be right.  It seems the humans must have abandoned their surgebinding for a time after the God-swap. Syl told Kaladin that spren saw what the Honorblades did and copied them, so that would mean post God-swap, humans were no longer surgebinding( since Odium was no longer their Patron)and were  getting their butts kicked by the Fused until the Heralds.

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13 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

It's a bit questionable to say that surgebinds are a bond between a man and a Spren because Surgebinding (to surgebind presumably) is the act of manipulating the surges (natural forces exterior to the shards or Spren) and Heralds can do that without a bond with a Spren (so can anyone with an Honorblade)

surgebind, honor version, need stormlight in order to works. honor gave the honorblate to the heralds, and only the heralds. before they abandon the oathpact after aharietiam no one can 'have' an honorblade. so all surgebind must be a 'nahel bond user'.

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This book was so so good. Such rich worldbuilding. 

I loved how we met Dalinar when he was just in padded armour (pre-plate). Sounds like him and Gavilar were no more than backwater family ruffians, and yet look what they made/end up with. Loved the “momentum” chapter and Dalinar’s rampage scene. 

The “Unity” event was, quite frankly, spiritual. What a sequence. “You can’t have my pain” (or similar) has to be up for a gong surely. 

I liked the hints of Radiants calling upon their shard armour at certain times.

damnation you Moash / Poor Rock / Yay Teft! / Adíos Amaram / Speak the words Kaladin!

I have to say I listened to the audiobook. It has its faults but overall Michael & Kate do a fantastic job (once again). 9/10

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To talk about Adolin alittle,  it would be nice if he would revive maya, but another thing is that i feel like Adolin is a lot like Roran from Eragon.

Roran was a bad This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules

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2 hours ago, Fulminato said:

surgebind, honor version, need stormlight in order to works. honor gave the honorblate to the heralds, and only the heralds. before they abandon the oathpact after aharietiam no one can 'have' an honorblade. so all surgebind must be a 'nahel bond user'.

You do realize everyone with an Honorblade (and we know the shin do use them to practice) surgebinds without a Spren bond, therefore not requiring a Spren bond to surgebind right? Even if you mean before the last desolation, the Heralds could surgebind without a bond even if no one else could. Not to mention squires who have no bond of their own, or even developing skybreakers who seem to get powers before they actually bond a Spren.

So no, Surgebinding does not require a bond with a Spren. 

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8 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

You do realize everyone with an Honorblade (and we know the shin do use them to practice) surgebinds without a Spren bond, therefore not requiring a Spren bond to surgebind right? Even if you mean before the last desolation, the Heralds could surgebind without a bond even if no one else could. Not to mention squires who have no bond of their own, or even developing skybreakers who seem to get powers before they actually bond a Spren.

So no, Surgebinding does not require a bond with a Spren. 

1) the nahel bond isn't the same with an honorblade. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116-general-reddit-2017/#e4788

2) the discourse point in the time between the man come on roshar (and followed by odium) and the creation of the fused. so a time  well before the honorblade need to becreated, and before  as well of "the men learn the surge". the world status some millenia after it is irrilevant.

On 6/12/2017 at 2:10 PM, Blacksmithki said:

@Fulminato

Presumably they use surge binding for anything of that type, like chicken for any bird, so it could be drastically different from the surge binding we see.

Also, this could be post god swap that this quote is referring to, it seems implied to be as much due to the fuzed being implied to have been created by Odium.

3) sourgebind mean ONE thing. using stormligh. the fused use voidlight (enough proof of that you can find in the gemstone library). odium is the void. (syl quote) so the servant of odium cannot be surgebind but can voidbind. so the "all birds are chikens" for surgebind is deeply wrong.

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random tangent here: in the epigraph, there is a funny literal reading

Quote

You must know what I have done, and what those actions cost me. For in this comes the lesson. It is not a lesson I claim to be able to teach. Experience herself is the great teacher, and you must seek her directly

So, you must know that dalinar committed genocide, and what it cost him. dalinar cannot teach it, so you must seek to experience it in person.

Huh. Looks like dalinar is inciting people to commit genocide in order to learn its price. :P

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IMG_20171207_193658_kindlephoto-46896947.thumb.jpg.daafa33939f59681f980c38bbe595071.jpg

It... It can't be over... It can't! It just can't! No... No... *takes deep breath* But... I can't wait three years! Ahhhhh!!! Now I know how all of you felt who read tWoK and/or WoR right after it was released! 

Edited by Tesh
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On 6.12.2017 at 8:54 PM, Ipus said:

That seems to be the general opinion. However, if this series has shown me something, it probably is the fact that no matter how evil a deed might seem, one should first find out the motivation behind it before judging the character doing the deed.

I feel Moash kind of has already had his possibly-leading-to-redemption arc in WoK and WoR. His motivations are revenge and hate. If he had stepped back from that path in Oathbringer, he could have found peace still. Now, he succumbed to Odium and Moash's actions while killing Elhokar, especially kicking the toddler Gavinor and afterwards saluting Kaladin with the Bridge Four salute are just despicable.

His anger towards Elhokar for imprisoning his grandparents (which led to them dying in prison) is justified, the actions he took from there are neither adequate nor justifyable. Moash has been hateful and bitter from the beginning in WoK, got a bit better and perhaps likeable in the books between WoK and WoR and then became worse again.

Moash made his choice and surrendered his passion to Odium, after killing Elhokar he feels empty and when he is set out to kill Jezrien, he becomes just a tool.

Of course there is still room for a reversal (as we know Brandon is fond of), but I for one wouldn't buy it. A reversal on this would be highly unsatisfying for me. Moash's background and motivations are too well fleshed out to make a turn like "Oh, in reality he is one of the good guys in disguise". For me, Moash is on a level of dislike as Torol Sadeas and the same end for Moash would be satisfying for me. Instead I see him becoming Odium's champion, now that Dalinar turned the job offer down.

19 hours ago, Fulminato said:

3) sourgebind mean ONE thing. using stormligh. the fused use voidlight (enough proof of that you can find in the gemstone library). odium is the void. (syl quote) so the servant of odium cannot be surgebind but can voidbind. so the "all birds are chikens" for surgebind is deeply wrong.

Surgebinding in present day is using Stormlight. It is absolutely possible that Surgebinding has not been distinguished from Voidbinding in the past. The humans who came to Roshar destroyed their own planet by "Surgebinding". This in fact was only a magic system similar to Surgebinding on Roshar, not the exact same thing. Here the WoB on this: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8690
As humans came with Odium to Roshar, what destroyed their home could have been Voidbinding or something else entirely.
This WoB https://wob.coppermind.net/events/174-oathbringer-portland-signing/#e8243 seems to imply that humans really did come from Ashyn (with its floating cities), which is in the Rosharan system. So Odium would have been in the system before he came to Roshar (planet). In conclusion it is perfectly possible that Surgebinding and Voidbinding were used synonymous or have to be transposed in records from the past, like the first Voidbringers were humans.

Edited by Pattern
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23 hours ago, Fulminato said:

1) the nahel bond isn't the same with an honorblade. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/116-general-reddit-2017/#e4788

2) the discourse point in the time between the man come on roshar (and followed by odium) and the creation of the fused. so a time  well before the honorblade need to becreated, and before  as well of "the men learn the surge". the world status some millenia after it is irrilevant.

3) sourgebind mean ONE thing. using stormligh. the fused use voidlight (enough proof of that you can find in the gemstone library). odium is the void. (syl quote) so the servant of odium cannot be surgebind but can voidbind. so the "all birds are chikens" for surgebind is deeply wrong.

1) I'm not saying Nahel bond = Honorblade, I'm saying that the action of Surgebinding can use done with either and therefore Surgebinding != Nahel bond

2) Surgebinding is not the usage of stormlight, it is the manipulation of "surges". When a knight uses the healing or enhanced speed gained by holding stormlight, that is not Surgebinding. Surgebinding is the manipulation of "surges".

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On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 6:24 PM, dionysus said:

1. Aimian sighting of that cremling Kaladin flicks with his finger in Kholinar. They were just having important discussions too.

2. I also concur with others that there is no way that is the sole reason for the Recreance. We have been told on several occasions, by heralds even, that without Honor to regulate the surges they are extremely dangerous. I think this is world ending levels of danger and we don't know the full story on that. Our main characters basically shrug off the revelation of the long-ago guilt of humanity, and I think that is a normal reaction. So my theory is that you had a combination of 1) revelation humanity is not historically the good guys, 2) revelation that your existence does in fact endanger Existence, and 3) Honor, according to the Stormfather, was in the process of being splintered and was raving and adding to the Radiants confusion.

3. The name of Odium definitely does not encompass all he is. He seems to be all emotion but with a particular focus on hatred. Also the feeding or absorbing of emotion, is that just how he entices people are is that inherent to his shard?

4. Love the spren in Shadesmar. So bizarre. Can you imagine a movie made of this book?

 

 

There must never, ever be a movie made for this book. To begin, they would get the music wrong for absolute certain.

It would be injustice. And I, as a Skybreaker, will not stand for it. It will not ... fly

Edited by Xaladin
Addition: avoiding a "double post"
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On 08/12/2017 at 9:35 AM, Blacksmithki said:

1) I'm not saying Nahel bond = Honorblade, I'm saying that the action of Surgebinding can use done with either and therefore Surgebinding != Nahel bond

2) Surgebinding is not the usage of stormlight, it is the manipulation of "surges". When a knight uses the healing or enhanced speed gained by holding stormlight, that is not Surgebinding. Surgebinding is the manipulation of "surges".

I agree with you objectively.

However, given that Voidbinding had been completely forgotton on Roshar, Stormlight was the only known method of Surgebinding. Therefore, Surgebinding became synonymous with using Stormlight. 

When Voidbinding returned with the Fused, the humans just kept the same lingo rather than come up with a new name like Honorbinding or some such.

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Finished the book an hour ago... man, the last hundred pages was a rollercoaster of emotions. I refused to put it down, just had to finish it in one go. Amazing.

I swear though, just when you think they take one step forward towards improving the situation Sanderson grins and makes them stumble four back at the end! 

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I wonder how long Brandon has been planning for Hoid to bond a cryptic. I wonder if he brought it with him on his trip to Scadrial? I hope we get to see him give his truths! 

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10 hours ago, Ookla the Cheesemaker said:

I wonder how long Brandon has been planning for Hoid to bond a cryptic. I wonder if he brought it with him on his trip to Scadrial? I hope we get to see him give his truths! 

I have this feeling that the idea for Hoid is to become familiar with the majority of the major investiture systems in the Cosmere. Like when he swiped a bead of Lerasium in Mistborn, becoming something of a in-world bridge between the various settings and their rules

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Whew. It's been about 2 or 3 years since I've been on this board...
But I'm back to get my fill of theorycrafting and to talk about what's up.
Sorry if what I'm saying has been said or figured out.

Okay so. First impressions, as I've just finished it for the first time:

Over all I find the book weaker in every way compared to WoR. Don't get me wrong, it was good. Very good. It was nice to get closure with Kaladin's parents (finally) and I may have cried along with him when he finally reaches Hearthstone and finds out his parents are live. And that he has a brother!
Kaladins character wasn't as potent as he was in prior books (so that may be why I prefer the other ones, as he's my favorite character). But it was still great to see him again doing something new, and also knowing that he is *finally* not alone.

Shallan was.....uh odd. I read the first page of this thread so I know there's a discussion around her romance(s?) and personality. She started out strong. I liked how "badass" she was when acting as Veil, and I liked the gradual losing of herself. Everything regarding her "mental health" was fairly realistic until the end. This feels more like Brandon was taking ideas from his own Legion book and trying to re-live them. I was VERY disappointed that she chose to be with Adolin because who the storm cares. Adolin is nice but god their relationship is so boring. At least with Kaladin there seemed to be passion, but with Adolin it's like Shallan was FORCING herself to love him. Yeah sure at the end she's happy and that's grand but wow the only options I see now is this continued, boring, flat love life with the "perfect man" or Adolin dies and she finally gets to be with Kaladin. How are they not a better match?? This also irritated me because it felt like all the development and teasing going into Shallan/Kaladin was for nothing. At the end we just return to status quo and nothing had changed.

Stuff with Dalinar was great. I echo many of the sentiments of you all in regards to that. No real complaints other than that odd vision with Nohadon we didn't get to find out what happened. Was that a real vision? It seemed like Nohadon actually knew him as Dalinar and not some person from memory. 

I'm confused about Renarins place in the whole scheme of things, but I'm looking forward to finding out what will happen. Although it is frustrating that he lied for so long about his abilities and then just succumbed to letting Jasnah almost kill him.

Also we never found out what became of Ash and Taln after Jasnah met them. But I guess RAFO for later? Or did I just miss it?

WHEN WILL HE STOP TEASING WARBREAKER AND GIVE US ANSWERS AHHHHH.

So we know Vasher brought Nightblood here. Is the weapon Moash uses the same as Nightblood? Or similar?
We also know Vivenna is here too, looking for Vasher. Likely to kill him. What. Did. He. DO. It's driving me nuts. Too bad Vivenna didn't stick with the main party, or she would have found a way out of Shadesmar with them...

Sorry if spelling is a bit off. I listened to the audiobook, and it's been a while since I read WoR.

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16 minutes ago, LinkasZelda said:


Shallan was.....uh odd. I read the first page of this thread so I know there's a discussion around her romance(s?) and personality. She started out strong. I liked how "badass" she was when acting as Veil, and I liked the gradual losing of herself. Everything regarding her "mental health" was fairly realistic until the end. This feels more like Brandon was taking ideas from his own Legion book and trying to re-live them. I was VERY disappointed that she chose to be with Adolin because who the storm cares. Adolin is nice but god their relationship is so boring. At least with Kaladin there seemed to be passion, but with Adolin it's like Shallan was FORCING herself to love him. Yeah sure at the end she's happy and that's grand but wow the only options I see now is this continued, boring, flat love life with the "perfect man" or Adolin dies and she finally gets to be with Kaladin. How are they not a better match?? This also irritated me because it felt like all the development and teasing going into Shallan/Kaladin was for nothing. At the end we just return to status quo and nothing had changed.
 

I don't see shadolin as boring at all. they were very cute together. and they gave the impression of stable, dependable relationship. Shalladin gave the impression of a quick thirst of passion followed by nothing. I take committment over passion. Plus, shallan has passion for adolin, and she makes it clear several times.

Finally, all the shalladin teasing was not for nothing. It was to show how mentally unhinged shallan was becoming. the personas she started by using them as acts and disguises took lives of their own and ended up influencing her. It was masterfully done. And shallan still has three personalities, and is at risk of splitting more. I wonder where this is going in the next book.

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My general thoughts on Oathbringer (after about a week or so of reflecting on it)...

1. This is Brandon's best book.  Dalinar was one of the first characters he ever wrote about.  As such, this is a story Brandon has been waiting decades to tell; and it's apparent in the quality of the work.

2. The Battle of Thaylen Field might be my favorite fictional battle scene ever.  Brandon managed to weave almost every major character into the battle in a meaningful way (with the exception of maybe Navani, but one could argue that she was doing... strategy stuff with Queen Fen.  The moment where Dalinar rejects Odium, speaks his Third Ideal, brings together the three Reams (thus creating Honor's Perpedicularity) is beyond epic.  The exact quote sequence here is fantastic, but I don't have my book in front of me to type it out.  Kaladin (perhaps my favorite fictional character ever) gets to fight a messed up version of Amaram! (Amaram's dialogue in this scene is great.)  Jasnah basically wishing her way through the city via Soulcasting was awesome (not to mention her powerful scene with Renarin right before this).  Szeth and Lift working together with Nightblood was one of the most entertaining things ever.

3.  The fall of Kholinar was one of the most heartbreaking scenes I've ever read.  Elokhar's death was one of the saddest fictional deaths ever (he's on a redemption path and, more importantly, about to speak the First Ideal).  The whole sequence was brilliantly plotted and executed.

4. The Szeth/Skybreaker storyline was so cool.  I love all of Szeth's scenes in this book.  His relationship with Nale/Nin is super interesting.  (I also can't wait for him to go to Shinovar on his quest.  Unfortunately, Brandon is probably saving that for book 5 since that's going to be Szeth's book).

5. Vivenna and Nightblood! (I'll admit, I think Warbreaker is one of Brandon's weakest books.  But I love Vasher and Nightblood, and what he seems to be doing with Vivenna's character is really cool.)

6. I really liked all of the political/negotiation scenes.  They showed how Dalinar had to "adapt to his audience" to win them over (i.e. showing dominance in Thaylen City, but having to "bureaucrat" his way in Azir. 

7. Odium onscreen! I was super pumped during his initial "vision scene" with Dalinar.  His presence at the Battle of Thaylen Field was a brilliant narrative move.  I also love his character as a villain.  Playing up the "I am Passion" aspect of hatred is really cool and gives a level of complexity to Odium/Rayse' character.

8. Hoid bonding a spren!  Oh boy.  He has to be getting real serious about something.

9. Moash deserves a long, painful death (killing two kings in one book.  The Bridge Four salute was so dirty too). On a semi-related note, all of the Heralds are going to die by the end of book 5 or book 10, thus breaking Odium's prison.  Narratively, we have to see a fully powered-enabled Odium at some point in the series. 

I have more that I need to think more about, but there are my general initial reactions for now.

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10 hours ago, Stormrunner1730 said:

My general thoughts on Oathbringer (after about a week or so of reflecting on it)...

1. This is Brandon's best book.  Dalinar was one of the first characters he ever wrote about.  As such, this is a story Brandon has been waiting decades to tell; and it's apparent in the quality of the work.

 

5. Vivenna and Nightblood! (I'll admit, I think Warbreaker is one of Brandon's weakest books.  But I love Vasher and Nightblood, and what he seems to be doing with Vivenna's character is really cool.)

9. Moash deserves a long, painful death (killing two kings in one book.  The Bridge Four salute was so dirty too). On a semi-related note, all of the Heralds are going to die by the end of book 5 or book 10, thus breaking Odium's prison.  Narratively, we have to see a fully powered-enabled Odium at some point in the series. 

I am wholeheartedly with you, with slight deviations in your points 5 and 9 :-)

Warbreaker is just phenomenal, if you keep in mind that its just a backstory for three up-to-now-B-class characters in Brandons Opus Magnum.

You are right, Moash is the real kingkiller, even a double-one, never thought of this; I wonder about the smalltalk between Brandon Sanderson and Patrick Rothfuss the next time they meet ... BS: "Hey Pat, how are your Kingkiller Chronicles coming along?" - PR: *mumblesincomprehensible* - BS: "Did you notice that I have a Double Kingkiller in my Chronicles now?"  ... naaaa, Brandon is probably much too nice to be so nasty ...

My deviation at 9 is that I dont think Moash is being dirty with the salute, but that he is still deeply respecting Kaladin; that he only feels that forgiveness goes beyond his, Moashs, powers, and that it can not be granted to him, either.

Edited by Michael Portz
receviing and giving end
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I mean I really like alot of the concepts in Warbreaker.  And some of the character interactions are cool.  I just thought it dragged too much (until the end).  I love how Vivenna, Vasher, and Nightblood are playing into Stormlight so far though.

I'm sure those conversations between Brandon and Rothfuss can get slightly awkward haha (Although Rothfuss has Lin-Manuel-Miranda working with him now, so he gets a lot of points for that haha).  Martin and his "Kingslayer" could give Moash a run for his money though haha... 

I totally agree that Moash meant the salute as a sign of respect and kind of a "at one point you would have done the same thing."  I'm saying it was dirty because it crushed Kaladin.

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On 11/14/2017 at 11:47 PM, Will O Wisp said:

Elhokar was my favourite character...he tried so hard in the end:(

Yes, but you can never outrun the storm.

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2 minutes ago, Bort said:

Yes, but you can never outrun the storm.

Journey before Destination everyone

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7 hours ago, Bort said:

Yes, but you can never outrun the storm.

No, but you can fly/fall over it haha.

Edited by Stormrunner1730
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