[OB] Full Book Reactions / Full Spoilers Thread

[Naurock]

1 minute ago, Run Ookla, run! said:

Give the recreance secret a few days. I thought it was underwhelming at first, but then I began to realize just how big of a deal that is.

I've been done with the book for almost a week now, and it still isn't hitting me hard. Humans clearly are wrong, but now they have a right to defense. 

[Steeldancer]

Just now, Naurock said:

I've been done with the book for almost a week now, and it still isn't hitting me hard. Humans clearly are wrong, but now they have a right to defense. 

Ok its not that

Its that Honor told them Surgebinding would literally destroy Roshar

when your God tells you that, you'd be a little freaked out, would you not?

[ghajan monk]

The Secret makes more sense if the Recreance took place right after defeating the Parsh and severing their minds. The extent of what their victory meant could have reinforced what Honor said.

Edited November 29, 2017 by ghajan monk

[Unhinged]

Finished the Book on the Friday after it came out but I felt I needed a while to digest it before I posted my reactions. OK first off let me say Dam you Brandon for releasing this book during the one week I couldn't get a day off from work. Anyway I liked the book but I just didn't love it like I did WOR the were Prose and Cons here and overall the prose vastly outweighed the cons but still.

Cons.

the Love triangle. it felt totally unnecessary and I don't fell like it added anything.

to many characters. I'm worried here that sanderson is falling into the trap that almost all epic fantasy writers seem to fall into to many characters all having their own story and all going in different directions. I do give sanderson credit here he managed to keep the story moving at a fast pace but the cost of this was I felt like I was constantly being jerked around and I had a much harder time getting into individual characters. Although I do wonder if he's setting up bridge 4 as latter Noveleta characters which would be a solid way of introducing them but I still feel like it ate up to many pages and added a lot of cool but unnecessary things to the story.

Eshonia. after all the buildup in WOR nothing she's dead end of story I just feel like there was more to her story and now were only going to see her in flashbacks.

no one batting an eyelash at Szeth turning up just seemed like a major plot hole to me.

 

Alright enough about the problems lets get to the good stuff.

 

Teft's story, I really would have rather read it in Noveleta form but that doesn't change the fact that his battle with his addiction was awesome.

Elhokar, his whole ark showed him finally growing up and right at the end he even swore the first ideal, it's rare that I feel satisfied at the death of a character I've come to love but for him it worked and I really felt like he was redeeming himself for his failures.

Despite me missing Eshonai I did enjoy Venli's chapters as well especially her setting the stage for a rebellion.

the responses to Hoids letters especially the last one. the Fact that Harmony of all shard is actually listening is a hopeful sign for Roshar.

the moment when Renarin said then what else could I be wrong about... I had to put the book down and collect my thoughts for a while because the dramatic music in my head wouldn't stop playing.

and then Dalinar did not disappoint with his epic you can't take my pain speech 

everything that followed this just bled awesome.

Moash ark it was horrible evil and downright despicable.... and I loved every second of it. This is mostly related to my personal tasted in fiction but i find that the best kind of villains are one's that can have a sympathetic reason for starting down the path to darkness then completely burn that excuse and continue down that path entirely of their own free will. I spent his entire story wondering will he be redeemed or not then when he killed Elokar I was like OK this is your last chance do you recognize how revenge hasn't brought you any satisfaction and try to atone or do you just keep going? and then he killed Juraze and I knew he had chosen evil.

one last thing that I noticed that I think might be some subtle foreshadowing remember that the first book the ardent was reading was about a love triangle which we sort of saw in this book even if I don't think it was handled well.

Quote

“Three men?”

“Sequels always have to be bigger,” he said, then offered her the stack of pages back. “I’ll lend it to you.”

I think things are going to go poorly for Lift or possibly Jasnah in the back five.

[Naurock]

13 minutes ago, Run Ookla, run! said:

Ok its not that

Its that Honor told them Surgebinding would literally destroy Roshar

when your God tells you that, you'd be a little freaked out, would you not?

I guess I more saw that as an issue with who spren are choosing and the malleability of perception. If you have spren holding people to their ideals how could they destroy a second planet? Or why bond people that could allow that?

[MistLord]

"Beware of anyone who says they can tell the future."

Yup, that was me. I saw the foreshadowing that Dalinar would be Odium's champion, that Renarin would be killed, and I thought this was going to be an Empire Strikes Back kind of tragedy. But nope! I fell for it hook bait and sinker. 

I have a confession: I've only read through Words of Radiance once, because I thought it was a huge disappointment. I was in a bit of a black spot, so maybe it was me rather than the book, but that's how it is. This book has definitely made it up to me.

I've always been a sucker for redemption arcs. Dalinar's story, whilst feeling a bit contrived to have his memories return so suddenly, was enthralling and justified. It makes you wonder how one man can bear to have the knowledge that they've done such horrible things, and the answer is of course, because they must. Because doing anything else would be lying to themselves. I've missed the Blackthorn side of Dalinar during Words of Radiance, given the ending to Way of Kings, but now I can move on from that as I see the Blackthorn was a genuinely horrible person. 

I kind of feel like the characters are overshadowed by the worldbuilding. Not necessarily because the character development is bad – it's not, it's excellent – but that it seems to run parallel to the worldbuilding, neither character or worldbuilding affecting one another. At least Adolin has the grace to be intimidated by the vastness of Shadesmar, but Kaladin literally spends the entire time moping, and Shallan just being Shallan, jumping between scholarship, sketching, and immaturity. For the same reason, despite all these huge revelations in the world – Re-Shepir, the Midnight Mother lying in the heart of Urithiru. Sja-Anat, she who corrupts corrupting all and then she might be defecting?? Remember how terrified Shallan was of Shadesmar for the first time? But we as the readers are left to bear the brunt of the shock here, whereas the characters just carry on with the facts, as if it were nothing out of the ordinary. I get that they may be getting used to being surprised, but come on. 

It's why I was annoyed by the Shalladin shipping from Words of Radiance. Shallan is just not self-aware enough to deserve that potential. When Kaladin jumps in to fight three full Shardbearers, it's amazing, incredible! The next time we see her PoV, she's... texting Adolin. It's like she wasn't even paying attention to the fact an average spearman was fighting Shardbearers. And won. Kaladin sees her strength and somewhat idolises for it, but doesn't see the downsides – but this makes sense, she's a person who doesn't open up much anyway. She does to Adolin, and Adolin fights for her, and its sweet, and it's fitting. But she's still broken, and she's got a long way left to go, but that's okay. 

That being said, I love her character in Oathbringer. I loved her in Way of Kings, but lost her in Words of Radiance. She just seemed so undeservedly self-assured. People point out the fact she doesn't recognise the privilege she has, and I think that definitely factors into it. Now however, her character flaws are apparent. She lies, and lies, and lies again to get herself out of positions that give her the slightest bit of anxiety. It's a response I think many of us can empathise with. It's why The Girl Who Looked Up is so powerful, as we see her facing that part of her that is so fundamentally her. It's nice to see that she doesn't overcome it just like that as well. Growth, by definition, is a process and not an event. 

Still interested what Honour's Perpendicularity actually is. I thought it was going to be a Highstorm, and that seems confirmed by Dalinar channeling the Stormfather, yet our characters passed Highstorms, and there wasn't any Highstorm around Jasnah's departure either, which most people take to mean no junction too. 

Finally, this book cements for me the fact that there's something fundamentally wrong with Odium, realmatically. All the other Shardic intents have an air of neutrality about them. Odium being just hate is unequivocally evil, and the fact that even Odium in-universe tries to escape this by claiming to be passion (which he is clearly not) only confirms this to me. 

[MrFunEGUY]

9 hours ago, MistLord said:

It makes you wonder how one man can bear to have the knowledge that they've done such horrible things, and the answer is of course, because they must.

I love this, so very true.

 

Finally, this book cements for me the fact that there's something fundamentally wrong with Odium, realmatically. All the other Shardic intents have an air of neutrality about them. Odium being just hate is unequivocally evil, and the fact that even Odium in-universe tries to escape this by claiming to be passion (which he is clearly not) only confirms this to me. 

 

I don't know that I agree that all other Shardic Intents have an air of neutrality about them. Ruin, for example. But even Preservation wasn't neutral, per se. Over time their Intent overrode their actual personalities. If Rayse was already a hateful person who enjoyed stuff of that nature, I just seem him embracing his intent as natural. He may be deluding himself though, and I think that's what we're seeing. In fact, I kind of love the way he talks about Cultivation and that's a good example. He says "A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar." If feels like that's the excuse he tells himself to justify why he wants to murder Cultivation. But that's a lie anyway, as we see that he doesn't care about humans serving him, as he tells Taravangian he'll kill anyone not from Kharbranth. He knows he's hatred incarnate, and will say whatever he wants to see his goal accomplished. I don't see that as too different from any other Shards.

Edited November 29, 2017 by MrFunEGUY

[Storming Radiant]

Okay, so I just finished this book. It was AWESOME! I absolutely loved it. So many amazing things going on in just one book. I started part five in the morning and actually skipped school because I just couldn't stop until the end. Now it's over and I want the next one. Here are some of the things I liked most (in no specific order):

Kaladin's reunion with his family! Too bad we don't know what's going on with them...

We finally learned about the Oathpact. Poor Taln...

The Bridge 4 POVs were awesome. Finally these people get to show us their perspective of everything happening (Teft's one really stood out to me, because of the Dalinar flashback after it, where we saw that like Teft's addiction to the firemoss, Dalinar was addicted to the thrill. The similarity betweenthem was astounding). This of course does not include Mosh. I storming hate Moash. And Vyre.

Learning more about the nature of the Oaths. The fact that it's all up to the Radiant's perspective is very interesting. I also got the feeling that once swearing the final oath, the radints became extremely more powerful. Wonder what it grants...

Dalinar's flashback war terrifying. He was such a different person back then. And finally seeing his trip to the Nightwatcher and meeting her was also really nice. I Actually thought that he sought her out way earlier then when he actually did...

Meeting Odium and Cultivation. I don't have much to say about Cultivation, her scene was kind of brief, but I loved Odium. I didn't expect him to be that way. I thought that the spot of the evil nice old dude was filled by Taravangian (yes, I know he's not really evil...)

Shallan and Wit. Priceless.

Seeing Shadesmar for real. Even though I thought of it as one of the weaker storypoints, it was still really cool. Especially meeting Vivena. I Wonder what happened between the events of this book and Warbreaker...

Szeth's POVs were great. I really enjoyed them. And Sword-nimi was hilarious. Way better then he was with Vasher.

Elhokar's small redemption throughout the book until he finally swears his first oat... Wait. No. I hate you Moash!!

Amaram finally getting what he deserved. Though it is unfortunate that he felt kind of absent for most of the book. It was the same with the whole 'Adolin killed Sadeas' thing...

The fifth part was Epic. Everyone fighting together was something I've been waiting for, and Jasnah is so COOL! Szeth finally joins the good guys for real! And Lift! And Adolin talking with Maya! And Kaladin vs Amaram! Shalan and Adolin's married! Teft Radiant!

Now for some of the stuff that I didn't really like...

The Shadesmar part, as I said. I found it kind of boring... The same goes for most of the Kholinar plotpoint.

Shallan's whole personality problems. It just felt wierd to me for some reason...

Sweeping the Sadeas murder under the rug.

 Not enough seen from the Ghostbloods.

Overall, the book was great. It gave us so much to talk about! I just hope it'll last until the next one comes out...

[StormingTexan]

It is very possible that the explanation for the Recreance is really as simple as we have learned. Let's face it we have a slight tendency to build things up here. I just cant help but feel like there is still more to it. For one Jasnah mentions that she learned about it from Hoid and that could have just been a teaser I guess but I fell like she knows more and that is why it was mentioned. The revelation that their surges could destroy this world too was still not enough for the Skybreakers to disband. I feel like there is some significance with the sibling and Urithiru as well and some tie in I just don't know what. Am I just not wanting to take the explanation given because I built up the big mystery so much? Anyone else feel similar? 

[king of nowhere]

14 hours ago, Andvari said:

I was really bothered by the "big secret" that humans were invaders on Roshar--I thought it was a great reason for the Recreance, but it was totally unrealistic for the coalition of humans to break apart because of this revelation. There are so, so many real-life examples of humans KNOWING they are invaders, yet still fighting tooth and nail for their land. This would be especially true against a force that wants to wipe humanity off the face of a planet where they've lived for thousands of years. People have committed genocide based on so much less.

I also was underwhelmed by the big reveal. ok, the part about destroying their previous world is actually relevant, except that we have no clue how that may be; I have the feeling it may be something akin to an overuse of the surges, so just learn to practice sustainable surgebinding.

But the "invaders" part, that's really irrelevant. I was born on this land, I worked it, I built my home. Therefore this land is mine. It does not matter that 100 generations ago my great-great-ancestors stole it. Yes, it was wrong, but should I feel responsible for something bad done so long ago just because I have a genetic relation to those people? For that matter, I am the descendant of invaders, because europe was inhabited by neandertals, and then the cro-magnon came and the neandertal disappeared.

anyway, it seems also most characters took the new in the same way. except the skybreakers, and they have a close fight with the diagram and the sons of honors for the title of dumbest secret society on roshar.

37 minutes ago, Storming Radiant said:

Okay, so I just finished this book. It was AWESOME! I absolutely loved it. So many amazing things going on in just one book. I started part five in the morning and actually skipped school because I just couldn't stop until the end.

I am a teacher, and yet I cannot help sympathize with you...

[Cealque]

On 11/13/2017 at 10:30 PM, Ookla the Leyspren said:

I think he's gonna be a Radiant, actually. Just not yet, though. Sure want to see how this is going to develop in the future!

 

I have a feeling he may find the secret to restoring the lost spren just from the way he was reacting with the one in shadesmar and what it did in the last battle.

[king of nowhere]

speaking of adolin, I'm glad to see him being badass without powers, without needing a radiant to come save the day (well, except to heal him in the end). In all the previous books, his accomplishments have been undermined by kaladin doing everything better. It is often the case in fantasy that people cannot achieve greatness without some supernatural aid, and I always like when this trope is defied.

[Blacksmithki]

4 hours ago, MrFunEGUY said:

I love this, so very true.

 

 

I don't know that I agree that all other Shardic Intents have an air of neutrality about them. Ruin, for example. But even Preservation wasn't neutral, per se. Over time their Intent overrode their actual personalities. If Rayse was already a hateful person who enjoyed stuff of that nature, I just seem him embracing his intent as natural. He may be deluding himself though, and I think that's what we're seeing. In fact, I kind of love the way he talks about Cultivation and that's a good example. He says "A man cannot serve two gods at once, Dalinar." If feels like that's the excuse he tells himself to justify why he wants to murder Cultivation. But that's a lie anyway, as we see that he doesn't care about humans serving him, as he tells Taravangian he'll kill anyone not from Kharbranth. He knows he's hatred incarnate, and will say whatever he wants to see his goal accomplished. I don't see that as too different from any other Shards.

Well, Ruin really wanted an end to things, in his own words, everything needs an end. He's not bad per say, he's bad without context, same as every single other shard, preservation would stop any change whatsoever, Honor only cares about oaths, not wether they will destroy people like what happened to Szeth, Odium is (per epigraphs of one of the first two books) "god's own divine hatred, without the (I think virtues?) that gave it context". All of these things are good if you give them balance and context, and terrible alone. See Harmony as opposed to either Ruin or Preservation, or Preservation in the context of trying to stop Ruin in HoA. 

[Starla]

Regarding the recreance, rather than the KR breaking their bonds and killing their spren, couldn’t they have made an agreement with the spren to stop forging new nahel bonds from that point forward? The current batch of KR would keep their bonds. They would all eventually die, but their spren would return to the cognitive realm and live on. It would take several decades, but the KR had already been around for a long time, so whats a few more years? Perhaps there was an imminent disaster in the works, but letting the knights die out naturally seems preferable to killing all of their spren in a mass bond breaking ceremony. 

[Khyrindor]

17 hours ago, Naurock said:

I really enjoyed this book! Some of the character arcs bothered me though. I didn't like Kaladin's childness towards a battle with the Parshendi. For a guy that was in an army as a spear men for years and then a bridge men he was overly sensitive to seeing death again. Shallan and he personality disorder was pretty annoying to read too.

Dalinar meeting Odium blew my mind the first time, I wasn't ready to meet him.

The letters to Hoid in the chapter preludes were so cool!

While in Shadesmar someone mentioned there's dead eyes spren there, I wonder if there's a hoard of them hiding from humans or if those are ones that humans are holding and waiting to be summoned. There does seem to be a whole lot of missing shard blades out there considering the Recreance.

The secret that caused the Recreance seemed a little underwhelming. Maybe it's because he's kinda teased this a few times while talking about horses and chickens are different than normal life on Roshar which abstractly points to humans as well.

Final battle, OMG! Whole Alethi army turns on Theylens & Dalinar! Amaram and Kaladin battle! You find out Rock was a soldier and lost his brothers making him a cook, he gets his family again and then fights! Sorry, those final chapters really got me fanboying. I was just so disappointed about Kaladin's arc, and I'm upset he didn't swear the next Ideal. I wanted to see Radiant Shardplate in action, that isn't in a vision. He's been a favorite of mine, but seeing Jasnah put him down and she was very right in her deduction of his actions. Also, Jasnah is back! I thoroughly enjoy her stone cold look at the world, and seeing her in battle (again, kinda) where she Soul Casts AIR! She was a Soul Casting machine, and I thought that was so interesting to read. I had never truly thought of battle implications of Soul Casting but that was super fascinating to me! 

re: Kaladin:

Each book can't end with Kaladin swearing an Ideal and saving the day; that would get repetitive, and would be shallow writing. I'm glad Sanderson went another way and it's fitting that Kaladin is so far unable to swear an Ideal relating to accepting that he can't save everyone. Don't get me wrong, I'm sad for Kaladin that he couldn't, but I'm glad (objectively) that he didn't, as it makes the story better. Kaladin did a lot of growing up this book, but it's not quite over. Also, on freezing, he wouldn't have frozen in a normal battle, but when your friends are brutally killing each other, and Kaladin has not yet accepted that not everyone can be saved, it's very understandable. Death is one thing; death of people you care for is another story. Adolin actually seems further along than Kaladin, forcing himself to "grieve later".

re: Shardplate:

It was strongly hinted that Dalinar could now (perhaps) summon plate. There was a paragraph when he swore some Ideals and noticed a shimmering of lines going around his body.

re: Recreance

Yeah it seems underwhelming and I hope we get a bit more on it later on as well. I like the theory that someone posted saying that perhaps the Old Radiants acted as ours did, until something happened that made it 'sink in', such as, perhaps, the Surges destroying the Plains, leading them to become the "Shattered" Plains. I agree with Steeldancer (too lazy to look at his Ookla name) that if you look at it objectively, it makes sense that what happened happened, when God is saying the Surges will destroy the world. I do hope it's more of a point of contention later in the story, as it was foreshadowed to be a huge problem.

[Turnblade Jade]

18 hours ago, Naurock said:

Also, Jasnah is back! I thoroughly enjoy her stone cold look at the world, and seeing her in battle (again, kinda) where she Soul Casts AIR! She was a Soul Casting machine, and I thought that was so interesting to read. I had never truly thought of battle implications of Soul Casting but that was super fascinating to me! 

Agreed! Jasnah was awesome. Though I really wish that Brandon had waited until this book to tell us that she was alive. It would've been stronger in my opinion.

Does anyone else think that maybe Palona is spying on Shallan for the Ghostbloods?

[StormingTexan]

37 minutes ago, Starla said:

Regarding the recreance, rather than the KR breaking their bonds and killing their spren, couldn’t they have made an agreement with the spren to stop forging new nahel bonds from that point forward? The current batch of KR would keep their bonds. They would all eventually die, but their spren would return to the cognitive realm and live on. It would take several decades, but the KR had already been around for a long time, so whats a few more years? Perhaps there was an imminent disaster in the works, but letting the knights die out naturally seems preferable to killing all of their spren in a mass bond breaking ceremony. 

Yeah that is why I feel like there has to be more. Sure I get the shock of finding out that you are the bad guys and your god is telling you that you will destroy your world would be pretty strong motivation to not want to use surges anymore but kill your bonded spren as well? Oh and this was motivation enough justification for EVERYONE except the Skybreakers. Now @Ookla the Effervescent mentioned about the shattering of the plains as catalyst makes more sense since they would have actually witnessed the destruction. 

[Shoffart]

I've seen a lot of posts on here saying Dalinars whole unite them thing is insisting he'll take up Tanavasts Shard and become Unity instead of honor. This got me thinking and I just noticed the similiarity to mistborn. In this series we see a Shard choose someone to be its next vessel, and then that same person chosen to be another Shards champion. Dalinar was chosen to be odiums champion. My thought is that the Stormfather was supposed to show the vessels to the person who would become Honors next vessel. So right there we see that odium groomed Dalinar from a young age and Dalinar was also chosen by the Stormfather aka Honor. When Dalinar visits the Nightwatcher Cultivation intervened knowing that Dalinar was odiums champion. I think that the unite them thing isn't about the splinters of Honor, though it very well could be a reference to him eventually becoming Honor, but I think it's about him becoming all three and achieving this figure of Unity. This could go even further. Dalinar may in fact be the person who unites all the Shards and recreates adonalsium. Or I could be completely wrong and he dies who knows 

 

Edit: so I reread the Ascension scene and something that sticks out to me is the way Odium said we killed you. We. We know that Odium killed Honor so I don't think he's referring to him, I think he's referring to Adonalsium. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Shoffart

[Shoffart]

On 11/16/2017 at 9:12 PM, KnightGradient said:

After digesting the book for the past 24 hours, I can safely say it was awesome. But disturbing.

Was nobody else deeply disturbed by Odium Passion? I expected some conniving, backstabbing SOB, who would twist your words and destroy worlds. Instead, he actually seemed to care. Every time Dalinar said "Choose your fighter! One duel for all of Roshar!" Odium would back away, and ask "Are you sure? Do you understand what you are asking?" I don't think that's just how Shards are. Ruin or Autonomy would probably have capitalized on those words, and immediately overpowered Dalinar. 

Moreover, the parsh have it rough. We were promised Voidbringers, and instead got people. Angry people. Angry and right people. Humanity invaded their world, spat on the kindness the Singers offered, and stole their Gods. Then, humans engaged in bloody wars, eventually removed a fundamental part of their existence, made them idiots, and enslaved them. I'm probably in the minority, but Moash was right. Humans don't deserve Roshar anymore.

Don't get me wrong, I love them good guys. The Knights Radiant were amazing here, and the Battle of Thaylen Field was phenomenal, but I have to side with Passion. Rayse's quest to kill the Shards makes sense now; all they do is meddle and interfere. Without the Shard's, the Cosmere would probably be a lot more peaceful, and more prosperous too. Elantris is proof of this. Even with both Shards dead, their world is the most advanced, and while divided, it seems like they've united since we last were on Sel.

Maybe I need to reread Oathbringer, but I think we're seeing the perspective of the bad guys. Guess I understand the Recreance now.

You do realize odiums the reason the humans did all that on Roshar right? Wheh they first appeared Odium was their god and they used void light not stormlight. Odium whipped them into a frenzy and led them to take over Roshar before defecting sides to the parshendi for reasons yet unexplained 

[MistLord]

6 hours ago, MrFunEGUY said:

I don't know that I agree that all other Shardic Intents have an air of neutrality about them. Ruin, for example. But even Preservation wasn't neutral, per se. 

I actually really liked how neutral Ruin seemed to be in Mistborn. Yes, he was out to destroy the world, but that's what entropy does. And entropy is a fundamental part of the world that has got to do with change. As a fundamental part of the universe, it cannot be inherently evil, as that is a human quality. It sucks at times, but it's clear that it's just part of the way things are, and it added to the existential conflict of Mistborn. It reminded me of the Hindu Gods (I forget which ones) and how neither the God who preserves or the God who destroys is any better than each other, but their cycle is what keeps the universe going. 

However, especially from my Christian point of view (which I believe Brandon would share), hatred is never justified. It just doesn't seem to do any good? Whatever hatred can achieve, rationality can do better. Hatred towards someone who has done the most heinous crimes in history is understandable, but is it really neutral in the way Ruin is? Our laws are decided based on policy and decision because we know emotions don't make us objective. Emotions just rile people up, and while this can be positive as it allows us to feel really human, hatred can also be the thing that takes our humanity away. Especially in Christian teaching, forgiveness – letting go of hatred – is powerfully, almost divinely therapeutic. Considering how much Oathbringer deals with forgiveness (and the abundance of Christian imagery) I can't help but feel this supports my feelings. 

I have a theory that Odium has less to do with hate, and more to do with conflict itself, as the multitude of emotions that Dalinar describes when seeing Odium have all to do with conquest. But I need to develop that theory first.

Or maybe I just need to get with the programme and realise Odium is more fundamental than I admit 

1 hour ago, Blacksmithki said:

Well, Ruin really wanted an end to things, in his own words, everything needs an end. He's not bad per say, he's bad without context, same as every single other shard, preservation would stop any change whatsoever, Honor only cares about oaths, not wether they will destroy people like what happened to Szeth, Odium is (per epigraphs of one of the first two books) "god's own divine hatred, without the (I think virtues?) that gave it context". All of these things are good if you give them balance and context, and terrible alone. See Harmony as opposed to either Ruin or Preservation, or Preservation in the context of trying to stop Ruin in HoA. 

The Stormfather said that in one point of the conflict, Honour lapsed into only caring about the wording of oaths, but that he wasn't usually so positivist as to not look at the meaning behind them before that. Kaladin talks to Syl about the subjectivity of Ideals, depending on the Radiant's interpretation of their meaning. So Honour's power definitively takes purpose into mind somewhat at least.

That epigraph is interesting though, you have a point of Odium and Honour maybe being better opposites than I thought. I never considered this because Odium is a traveller, and Honour and Odium were never meant to be paired up in the first place (also, didn't Brandon say no two shards better complemented each other than Preservation and Ruin?).

 

Either way, super hyped to see where this conflict takes us 

[Starla]

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

Yeah that is why I feel like there has to be more. Sure I get the shock of finding out that you are the bad guys and your god is telling you that you will destroy your world would be pretty strong motivation to not want to use surges anymore but kill your bonded spren as well? Oh and this was motivation enough justification for EVERYONE except the Skybreakers. Now @Ookla the Effervescent mentioned about the shattering of the plains as catalyst makes more sense since they would have actually witnessed the destruction. 

Witnessing some massive destruction could trigger breaking the bonds, though if that's the case, I find it curious that the spren are so angry about it. If the radiants had to break the bond to prevent some planetary catastrophe, I would expect the spren to understand the reasoning behind it and agree to it willingly. For example, an Honor spren would expect their radiant to do whatever is necessary to protect people, even breaking the bond. However now, hundreds/thousands of years later, the Honor spren forbid their kind to bond anyone, so that Syl had to run away to form a bond. Likewise, the Willshaper spren seem to only want to bond Singers, and the Dustbringer spren hate the other radiant orders. I find it surprising that some amicable agreement between radiant and spren couldn't be reached to prevent the impending catastrophe. Perhaps the spren expected the radiant to sacrifice themselves, rather than the spren (i.e. suicide).

[Shardmancer]

Ok!

After long hiatus away from the forums "Oathbringer" lashed me right back.

Great book keep them coming Brandon *There is always another secret*

[StormingTexan]

7 minutes ago, Starla said:

Witnessing some massive destruction could trigger breaking the bonds, though if that's the case, I find it curious that the spren are so angry about it. If the radiants had to break the bond to prevent some planetary catastrophe, I would expect the spren to understand the reasoning behind it and agree to it willingly. For example, an Honor spren would expect their radiant to do whatever is necessary to protect people, even breaking the bond. However now, hundreds/thousands of years later, the Honor spren forbid their kind to bond anyone, so that Syl had to run away to form a bond. Likewise, the Willshaper spren seem to only want to bond Singers, and the Dustbringer spren hate the other radiant orders. I find it surprising that some amicable agreement between radiant and spren couldn't be reached to prevent the impending catastrophe. Perhaps the spren expected the radiant to sacrifice themselves, rather than the spren (i.e. suicide).

Even if the Spren agree to it willingly to save the world in the past that doesn't mean they would be ok with repeating this in the present. Especially with their diminished numbers currently. Still does not make sense to me with the current explanation is why they had to kill their spren. We know there are ways to release them as long as the KR has not spoken their final ideal and presumable at least a decent portion would not be at this level yet. 

[TequilaJack]

1 hour ago, Starla said:

Witnessing some massive destruction could trigger breaking the bonds, though if that's the case, I find it curious that the spren are so angry about it. If the radiants had to break the bond to prevent some planetary catastrophe, I would expect the spren to understand the reasoning behind it and agree to it willingly. For example, an Honor spren would expect their radiant to do whatever is necessary to protect people, even breaking the bond. However now, hundreds/thousands of years later, the Honor spren forbid their kind to bond anyone, so that Syl had to run away to form a bond. Likewise, the Willshaper spren seem to only want to bond Singers, and the Dustbringer spren hate the other radiant orders. I find it surprising that some amicable agreement between radiant and spren couldn't be reached to prevent the impending catastrophe. Perhaps the spren expected the radiant to sacrifice themselves, rather than the spren (i.e. suicide).

Stormfather who was standing in for Honor distrusts humans. He was creating honorsprens after Honor and so his attitude may have filtered in. 

Sprens are nearly a different species. They are pieces of pure power and have pre existed humanity at least at a planetary level. You can't expect them to have same faith in humanity as you and me. For them honor is being true to your Oaths. What you are saying is a justification to oath breaking, and once you go down that route it's a slippery slope. They are spirits and stay true to Oaths irrespective of external influences imo.

 

Edited November 29, 2017 by TequilaJack

[TequilaJack]

44 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Even if the Spren agree to it willingly to save the world in the past that doesn't mean they would be ok with repeating this in the present. Especially with their diminished numbers currently. Still does not make sense to me with the current explanation is why they had to kill their spren. We know there are ways to release them as long as the KR has not spoken their final ideal and presumable at least a decent portion would not be at this level yet. 

If you break even after first oath, they die. Syl nearly died and that's after 1 or 2 Oaths. What's the release you refer to here?