[OB] Full Book Reactions / Full Spoilers Thread

[Chaos]

Full book spoilers on Oathbringer open 11/14 12:01am Eastern Standard time. When this topic opens you can discuss all of Oathbringer in this board.

This topic is our usual book reaction topic. If you have not read the book get out of this thread right now. This will have mega spoilers and I imagine a lot of discussion on the ending! 

You have been warned!

Let's put some extraneous white space here just so you're sure you want to proceed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Okay, let us begin. (Well, at midnight Eastern time at least.)

[Guest]

Alright.

Real quick points:

Favorite Chapter: Probably Chapter 119 "Unity" - the culmination of Dalinar's backstory to the present... and Dalinar's Ascension just amazing.

Favorite Characters: Kaladin, because for once he doesn't save the day alone, yet makes plenty of personal progress. Adolin, because he shows that heroes don't have to be Radiants. Dalinar, because... he shows that even the worst man has a chance at redemption. Jasnah, whoever still says she is heartless after this book, is blind. Bridge Four, just because.

Least favorite Characters: Moash. Enough said.

Favorite plotlines: Everything. Yes. This book is good from start to end.

Least favorite thing: Sadeas' murder getting swept under the rug. Though I wouldn't be surprised if he haven't seen the last of it yet. Especially with Adolin now being highprince.

Least favorite (minor) plotline: The "love triangle". This might sound bitter from me, but please don't mistake it as that. I have nothing against Adolin and Shallan getting together, but I am afraid, that their relationship will remain as bland and shallow as it is right now. In my eyes, it is unrealistically perfect and boring to read. Shallan's constant swooning about Adolin and Veil's swooning about Kaladin (though not as frequent) was really one of the worst things in this book, often leaving me with rolling eyes. The Kaladin/Shallan side of this "triangle" was only marginally explored and ended with plenty of assumptions on Shallan's side. I'll delve deeper into my thoughts in a specific thread, but I think that whole thing could have been just left out.

That said, this is my only real criticism of this book, which makes it a really, really good one. There are so many things in it and I can't wait to discuss them all.

Edited November 14, 2017 by SLNC

[Leyrann]

17 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Favorite Chapter: Probably Chapter 119 "Unity" - the culmination of Dalinar's backstory to the present... and Dalinar's Ascension just amazing.

So much agreed here. Dalinar was absolutely awesome when he denied Odium. Free will > evil gods.

18 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Adolin, because he shows that heroes don't have to be Radiants.

I think he's gonna be a Radiant, actually. Just not yet, though. Sure want to see how this is going to develop in the future!

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I think he's gonna be a Radiant, actually. Just not yet, though. Sure want to see how this is going to develop in the future!

I hope he doesn't. His non-Radiant perspective is actually really refreshing.

[Leyrann]

On 14-11-2017 at 7:36 AM, SLNC said:

I hope he doesn't. His non-Radiant perspective is actually really refreshing.

On one hand, I agree that it's nice to have a non-Radiant in there, but on the other hand I want to see him revive Maya, and I don't think that's going to happen without him becoming a Radiant (Edgedancer to be precise).

Edit: And that's my first popular post... A bit of an anti-climax...

Edited December 27, 2017 by Leyrann

[Pattern]

I love the book. I suffered from serious sleep deprivation while reading it, there is just no place where you can stop reading properly.

Dalinar ascending was definitely impressive, most touching for me was "The Girl who Stood Up" though. Hoid and Shallan together retelling the story was just beautiful. In his youth, Hoid promised to be there where he is needed. Although he himself thinks in the end he was in Kholinar to pick up the Patternspren (I guess it's the spren Elhokar was cut off bonding), I think him giving Shallan a view how to deal with her past is the true need to be in Kholinar. Reading that chapter, I had tears in my eyes.

The secret that caused the Recreance was a bit underwhelming for me. That humans are the invaders on Roshar was clear to me beforehand. Nonetheless I see the problems it would have caused for the KR of old.

Odium not being only the God of Hatred but of all Passions. I am not sure whether he lied there or not. Be it as it may, I have got the impression that the Thaylen "Passions"-superstition is a remnant of old Odium worship.

Renarin has bonded a Sja-Anat spren. Seeing the future is in fact of Odium, but I don't see Renarin as an evil guy. The lines blur between good and evil. Sja-Anat wants to change sides - as she says herself and the Ghostbloods also assume.

The letter "E" seems to be Oathbringers Redshirt. Eshonai, Elhokar, Eth dead. For Eshonai I was sad. Elhokar died just when I started to like him a bit better, well Eth was not such an important member of Bridge 4, now he can join his brother who died in WoR. RIP.

Moash. What a jerk. And now equipped with a mysterious blade, enabling him to kill the Heralds for good. The Oathpact is in true danger now. When will we get book 4?

There we come to the great flaw of Oathbringer. It is too short! I could continue reading forever, I guess.

[Leyrann]

59 minutes ago, Pattern said:

The secret that caused the Recreance was a bit underwhelming for me. That humans are the invaders on Roshar was clear to me beforehand. Nonetheless I see the problems it would have caused for the KR of old.

I think it was underwhelming because we already figured it out from the story of the Girl Who Looked Up. It's actually a pretty devastating thing to realize when you think you're fighting evil and then you find out that you are the evil.

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

There we come to the great flaw of Oathbringer. It is too short! I could continue reading forever, I guess.

Good thing it's not a standalone book. We want more!

[Pattern]

1 minute ago, Leyrann said:

It's actually a pretty devastating thing to realize when you think you're fighting evil and then you find out that you are the evil.

This is not really what the Knight Radiant are. Humans might have been the invaders, but somewhen in the past Odium shifted from a human god to a Singer/Listener god. There is no evil side when you look at present time humans and listeners/singers/parsh. That is why Kaladin finally freezes in battle and does not want to fight anymore. Both the freed parshmen and the humans living in their cities for generations have legitimate interests. Odium instigates war, his only goal is to get free of Roshar and consequently destroy as many Shards as possible. So when Odium influences one side - either humans or parsh - a war of annihilation is intended. Here the KR can and should counter the aggressors.

It is possible for the KR to become helpful for both races, we already see Venli bonding a Radiant spren, a thing not possible in the past. On the other hand, Renarin has accidentally bonded a corrupted spren (Sja-anat) but he is far from hateful. Renarin is the wildcard, Odium cannot see.

All in all we already see that the secret that destroyed the Knights Radiant does not have as massive an impact on the new KR as Taravangian might have hoped. Honor's changing shortly before the Recreance must also have played a part in the insecurities of the KR of old. (Tanavast seems to have lost his humanity, bending to the Intent of the Shard more and more). Honor without compassion is not a good thing, so yes, if the KR had such a compassionless god at that time and then discovered that humans were the original Voidbringers, this would lead to them abandoning their oaths. Perhaps even with the assent of their spren.

[Leyrann]

2 minutes ago, Pattern said:

There is no evil side when you look at present time humans and listeners/singers/parsh.

Agreed, but I was talking about what it felt like.

As I also mentioned in this thread in the Cosmere theories board, I think that, indeed, the only way anything can truly be solved is if the humans and singers end their war not by one side defeating the other, but by both recognizing the other side as equals to share the world with.

[Pattern]

2 hours ago, Leyrann said:

On one hand, I agree that it's nice to have a non-Radiant in there, but on the other hand I want to see him revive Maya, and I don't think that's going to happen without him becoming a Radiant (Edgedancer to be precise).

Maya seems to be partly alive in the end, when she tells Adolin her name and Adolin is able to summon her as a Shardblade after less than ten heartbeats. So perhaps it is possible for Maya to become totally alive again without forming a Nahel bond to Adolin. For a bond, Adolin has to crack. Of course this is always possible but as for now he seems to be ok after confessing Sadeas' killing.

Adolin's talking to his shardblade and treating it with respect in the past should increase now and could be a catalyst in reviving Maya. I really would like to see that happen without losing the refreshing non-radiant perspective. Adolin is great without magic and can continue to be so .

[Leyrann]

2 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Adolin's talking to his shardblade and treating it with respect in the past should increase now and could be a catalyst in reviving Maya.

This is indeed something that I think will also matter. In a way, Adolin has always regarded his Blade as a being.

Let's be real though - Adolin, the best duelist and one of the best fighters alive, now with Abrasion and superhealing abilities. How amazing would that be? He'd defeat full armies on his own.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

Adolin, the best duelist and one of the best fighters alive

Which is exactly the point, that he doesn't have to be a Radiant. The PoVs are already saturated with Radiants. Adolin is effective enough as he is. I'd argue, that I wouldn't have liked his arc in Oathbringer as much, if he were a Radiant.

Edited November 14, 2017 by SLNC

[Leyrann]

Just now, SLNC said:

Which is exactly the point, that he doesn't have to be a Radiant. The PoVs are already saturated with Radiants. Adolin is effective enough as he is.

I know he doesn't have to be (I personally don't really care one way or another; I think both make for a good story), but the best fighter + the best combat Surge would allow for even more awesome fighting, no matter how you put it.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I know he doesn't have to be (I personally don't really care one way or another; I think both make for a good story), but the best fighter + the best combat Surge would allow for even more awesome fighting, no matter how you put it.

And would introduce an incredibly overpowered character, who would reduce the suspense in every combat scene he is involved in.

Edited November 14, 2017 by SLNC

[Mr Horrible]

57 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

I know he doesn't have to be (I personally don't really care one way or another; I think both make for a good story), but the best fighter + the best combat Surge would allow for even more awesome fighting, no matter how you put it.

I don't think Adolin has ever really gone head to head vs Kaladin with a spear or the Blackthorn.

[yulerule]

Yay, picture of Urithru and the oathgates. 7:56

Edit1: So Dalinar didn't kill the kid. 8:24

Edit2: We learn the truth about the Oathpact and the last desolation. 9:39

Edit3: Veil is being disturbing... 10:02

Edit4: yay!Lift! and Dalinar! 10:13

Edit: Oh god, oh god oh god, Literally. 11:49

Edit: Can't stop laughing at Kaladin's disguise. 12:42

Edit: Three bondsmiths... 1:06

Edit: Wow, forgot a plot point. 1:10

Edit: Hoid's never gonna forget about that flute, is he? 1:39

Edit: mini avalanche? 2:58 

Edit: I know who Vivenna is!  She also uses color metaphors 3:04

Edit: Is Odium's champion who I think it is...? 4:50

635

Edit: I'm so happy the book doesn't end at part 4. 9:21

10:39 Bondsmiths are f scary

1:35 - finished. So much to chew over.

Edited November 15, 2017 by yulerule

[Ailvara]

8 hours ago, SLNC said:

This might sound bitter from me, but please don't mistake it as that. I have nothing against Adolin and Shallan getting together, but I am afraid, that their relationship will remain as bland and shallow as it is right now. In my eyes, it is unrealistically perfect and boring to read. Shallan's constant swooning about Adolin and Veil's swooning about Kaladin (though not as frequent) was really one of the worst things in this book, often leaving me with rolling eyes. The Kaladin/Shallan side of this "triangle" was only marginally explored and ended with plenty of assumptions on Shallan's side. I'll delve deeper into my thoughts in a specific thread, but I think that whole thing could have been just left out.

Yes, they're boring. I'm mad for my preferred ship sinking, but also because Brandon teased so much in the Shalladin direction, that he left the thread hanging like a pierced bubble. I don't see any sense in establishing any grounds for Shalladin in the first place now, it feels like he changed his mind in the middle. 

I also wonder, what he's getting at with this triangle resembling another (possibly Dalinar/Navani/Gavilar). It seems we are either left with a red herring or Adolin getting killed off and Shalladin happening later, possibly in the sequel series. Both options absolutely terrible.

[Leyrann]

To be fair I personally believe Brandon was teasing Shalladin just to troll the readers. Or maybe Shallan figures out how to literally split off Veil so that she's a seperate physical being and then Veil hooks up with Kaladin.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Leyrann

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Leyrann said:

 

To be fair I personally believe Brandon was teasing Shalladin just to troll the readers.

 

I really don't see any sense in that.

[Leyrann]

4 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I really don't see any sense in that.

Neither do I, but I feel like Brandon's just being too blunt with it otherwise. He just throws it in your face time and time again that Shallan and Kaladin (I actually wrote Kadolin LOL new ship incoming) like each other. I don't think he'd do that if he wanted to establish tension between Adolin and Kaladin over it. He'd be more subtle.

(also, this board is sooooo quiet today lol... everyone's reading)

Edited November 14, 2017 by Leyrann

[Ailvara]

7 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I really don't see any sense in that.

Me neither, he's not a trolling-over-sense type. That's why I'm wondering, if it's something he planned to do, but resigned after characters going a slightly different way than he intended, or if there's some additional drama coming. Otherwise it simply makes no sense. 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

Yes, they're boring.

Well, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that...

27 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I also wonder, what he's getting at with this triangle resembling another (possibly Dalinar/Navani/Gavilar). It seems we are either left with a red herring or Adolin getting killed off and Shalladin happening later, possibly in the sequel series. Both options absolutely terrible.

I agree. Would really hate that.

[Subvisual Haze]

Dalinar's arc was fantastic.  I love his new oath too, those are words to live by.

The moment that made me tear up the most was the return of Taln.  After finding out he was tortured for 4,500 years the guy was happy.  Happy that he bought humanity so much time.  Taln, the truest hero in our world.

I'm not a fan of where Shallan's character has gone.  "Multiple Personalities" might make an interesting plot device, but it's a very contentious area of psychology.  After how realistically Kaladin's recurring depression, Teft+Dalinar's substance abuse disorder and Shallan's prior avoidance mechanisms and panic disorder were displayed, I'm rather sad to see Shallan adopting a Hollywood-ized psychological disorder.

Also, if she's set on Adolin now, it would be nice if Shallan stopped being unpleasant to Kaladin.  She doesn't even have the thin justification that she's teasingly flirting with Kaladin anymore, at this point she's basically just bullying the poor guy.  He's stoic enough to not call her out on it, but the teasing is so one sided at this point that someone needs to tell Shallan to stop acting that way.

[Aminar]

50 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Dalinar's arc was fantastic.  I love his new oath too, those are words to live by.

The moment that made me tear up the most was the return of Taln.  After finding out he was tortured for 4,500 years the guy was happy.  Happy that he bought humanity so much time.  Taln, the truest hero in our world.

I'm not a fan of where Shallan's character has gone.  "Multiple Personalities" might make an interesting plot device, but it's a very contentious area of psychology.  After how realistically Kaladin's recurring depression, Teft+Dalinar's substance abuse disorder and Shallan's prior avoidance mechanisms and panic disorder were displayed, I'm rather sad to see Shallan adopting a Hollywood-ized psychological disorder.

Also, if she's set on Adolin now, it would be nice if Shallan stopped being unpleasant to Kaladin.  She doesn't even have the thin justification that she's teasingly flirting with Kaladin anymore, at this point she's basically just bullying the poor guy.  He's stoic enough to not call her out on it, but the teasing is so one sided at this point that someone needs to tell Shallan to stop acting that way.

I was pretty worried about the multiple personality disorder thing. the execution works all right in the sense that it's nothing like the disorder and it's clearly related to her magic. I don't like it, I think it'll require more work to be done right, but when they almost cast Renarin as the Villain I did almost put the book down and stop.  Between those things I was nearly done. 

As for everyone calling Adolin and Shallan boring, I hope your in world relationships are like theirs. Relationships full of temper and insults aren't healthy. Kaladin has a lot of learning to do before he'll make anybody happy. 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Aminar said:

As for everyone calling Adolin and Shallan boring, I hope your in world relationships are like theirs. Relationships full of temper and insults aren't healthy. Kaladin has a lot of learning to do before he'll make anybody happy. 

Funny, I thought I was reading a book and not a real-life simulation of perfection. Is it so wrong to want something a bit more interesting? At least some conflict? You know, something engaging to read?

Edited November 14, 2017 by SLNC