Glamdring804 Posted November 12, 2017 Report Share Posted November 12, 2017 So, this theory was inspired by discussion in this thread on Reddit. If someone has posted this before, just ignore me. Note that I haven't read the Oathbringer previews, so if there's more information in those, I don't know of it. Based on what we've seen in the first two Stormlight books, and Edgedancer though, I'm fairly confident in this. We've had a fairly in-depth look at three surges so far (Gravitation, Illumination, and Progression) with some info on three others (Adhesion, Abrasion, and Transformation). With the first three, we've seen two different ways of using them. Gravitation There are two types of Gravitational Lashing. You can either perform a Basic Lashing, where you change the direction of the local gravitational force on an object. Then there's a Reverse Lashing, where you increase an object's apparent gravitational pull. Basic stuff really, this was established in the prologue. Progression We've seen Lift use Progression in two ways. She can either cause Growth in plants near her, or use Regrowth to heal injured people. Illumination This was the final piece of the puzzle for me. Credit goes to the Reddit thread for pointing it out. In chapter 30 of WoR, Shallan apparently sees events elsewhere and elsewhen on Roshar: “She paused, noticing what she’d drawn: a rocky shore near the ocean, with distinctive cliffs rising behind. The perspective was distant; on the rocky shore, several shadowy figures helped one another out of the water. She swore one of them was Yalb. A hopeful fancy. She wished so much for them to be alive. She would probably never know. She turned the page and drew what came to her. A sketch of a woman kneeling over a body, raising a hammer and chisel, as if to slam it down into the person’s face. The one beneath her was stiff, wooden . . . maybe even stone?” I at first thought this was related to Shallan's mnemonic ability, something all Lightweavers are known to have. However, sprocket44 on Reddit pointed out that this might actually be another application of Illumination. Specifically, it seems to be similar to how Renarin, a Truthwatcher, "sees" things. What to Shallan and Renarin have in common? Control of Illumination. To summarize, there are two ways of using Illumination: Creating illusions, or seeing events of a different time and place. What I think is going on here, is each surge is being either Pushed or Pulled. With Gravitation, a Basic Lashing Pushes on the gravity of an object, changing the direction of force only on the object that was lashed. A Reverse Lashing obviously Pulls, causing objects to be gravitationally attracted to the object which you're lashing. With Illumination, you Push the surge out of your body to create constructs of Light, or waves of sound. You Pull on it to receive glimpses of distant events. I'm not quite sure which aspect of Progression is Pushing or Pulling. Regrowth might be Pushing, since you give something to the subject, which would make Growth the Pulling power, in which you Pull on the flora around you to stimulate it. The terms Pulling and Pushing are obviously more commonly associated with Allomancy. Each base metal allows an Allomancer to Pull on something, while each alloy Pushes. However, I do think they can and should be applied to Surgebinding. Brandon as stated that one of his goals with the Cosmere is to create a "Magical Theory of Everything," where all magic systems in the Cosmere operate on the same basic principles. Categorizing surge manipulation as Pushing and Pulling is a clean and logical way of organizing those powers. I would love to get a viewpoint from Hoid, where he uses bronze to listen to someone Surgebind. This probably won't happen until Mistborn Era 4, unfortunately. Lastly, this theory is obviously incomplete. We've only seen one use of some surges so far. With Abrasion, Slicking is probably the Pulling power, and the Pushing power would be related to increasing friction, and probably the Dustbringers' ability to light stuff on fire. What about the others? What would the "opposite" of sticking two objects together with a vacuum? What would the opposites of Soulcasting and Elsecalling even look like? Ah well. Oathbginer comes out in two days. We'll probably know a lot more by then. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZenBossanova Posted November 12, 2017 Report Share Posted November 12, 2017 I would go a step further and classify the Shards, the same way metals are classified on Scadrial. In other words, Pushing /Pulling, Internal/External, Physical/Cognitive/Temporal, etc. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spoolofwhool Posted November 13, 2017 Report Share Posted November 13, 2017 While it may be possible to classify them as such, it should be kept in mind that the classification of pushing and pulling is unconnected to the effects of the variations of allomancy, and is instead simply related to how they are felt using copper allomancy. As such, I would only see a reason to classify them as pushing/pulling in the same vein as allomancy if the same kind of pulses can be felt, and that they can be observed as being pushing or pulling. In any case, if it did come to classifying surgebinding within the confines of Pushing or Pulling, I think that it should be the entire branch of surgebinding variation which is classified as Pushing or Pulling, as is done with allomancy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glamdring804 Posted November 13, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2017 50 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said: While it may be possible to classify them as such, it should be kept in mind that the classification of pushing and pulling is unconnected to the effects of the variations of allomancy, and is instead simply related to how they are felt using copper allomancy. As such, I would only see a reason to classify them as pushing/pulling in the same vein as allomancy if the same kind of pulses can be felt, and that they can be observed as being pushing or pulling. In any case, if it did come to classifying surgebinding within the confines of Pushing or Pulling, I think that it should be the entire branch of surgebinding variation which is classified as Pushing or Pulling, as is done with allomancy. But the metals do actually push and pull. It's not obvious, but it's there. Aside from the obvious ones of Iron and Steel, you have; Tin which 'pulls' information to your senses + Pewter which 'pushes' your body outwards, strengthening it; Nicrosil that 'pushes' on the strength of a target's allomantic powers + Chromium which 'pulls' on the strength of someone's powers, etc. Yes, the terms came from bronze burning, but they do fit the nature of the powers in an abstract manner. Since Hoid is the only known allomancer on Roshar, we have to wrk backwards from there. I'm not sure there would be a need to lump various surges into categories. Each sure is already a category unto itself. If my theory is correct, then each surge would already encompass both pushing and pulling, whereas in allomancy, you need both a metal and its alloy to get a push/pull duality. This whole idea came about because if you squint, it seems some surges can be used both ways. 8 hours ago, ZenBossanova said: I would go a step further and classify the Shards, the same way metals are classified on Scadrial. In other words, Pushing /Pulling, Internal/External, Physical/Cognitive/Temporal, etc. We would need more information on how the surges function, I think. I'll post my conclusions after I read Oathbringer. In any case, it might not be necessary to categorize the surges, since each surge seems to be a category in itself. In allomancy, you need a metal and its alloy to make a push/pull pair, whereas my theory posits that each surge is a pair unto itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoAjah Posted November 16, 2017 Report Share Posted November 16, 2017 I think the OP is likely correct and there is likely a degree of those rational categorisations of Allomancy applicable to all Cosmere magic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 Posted November 17, 2017 Report Share Posted November 17, 2017 On 11/12/2017 at 11:53 PM, Spoolofwhool said: While it may be possible to classify them as such, it should be kept in mind that the classification of pushing and pulling is unconnected to the effects of the variations of allomancy, and is instead simply related to how they are felt using copper allomancy. As such, I would only see a reason to classify them as pushing/pulling in the same vein as allomancy if the same kind of pulses can be felt, and that they can be observed as being pushing or pulling. In any case, if it did come to classifying surgebinding within the confines of Pushing or Pulling, I think that it should be the entire branch of surgebinding variation which is classified as Pushing or Pulling, as is done with allomancy. I think you mean A. Bronze? Bronze can be used to sense other forms of investiture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CosmereAvair Posted November 21, 2017 Report Share Posted November 21, 2017 (edited) Oathbringer Spoiler Spoiler In oath bringer Hoid tries to create his illusions to tell Shallan a story but fails, he asks her for some help and she releases some stormlight and Hoid uses it to tell his story, with Shallan's help. Take what you can from this information, but it seems one magic system can affect another one Edited November 21, 2017 by CosmereAvair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathon Posted November 25, 2017 Report Share Posted November 25, 2017 I agree with you and think that the surges can be pushed and pulled, however my theory is that since multiple orders can use each surge they can only either push or pull on their specific surges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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