[OB] Oathbringer chapters 31 & 32

[djammmer]

3 hours ago, Slothspren said:

 

I was certainly hoping for additional Kaladin books since to me the story is about him. No matter who is having screen time or how much exciting their events are in back of my head its still about kaladin and thats who I keep thinking about.  Anyway since we know that future books will be about szeth, eshonai, lift, renarin, jasnah, ash and taln. so there doesn't seem to be any chance of additional Kaladin book. Though I would like to know his backstory relating to Tarah, and similarly too much of shallan's backstory is confusing and missing. Also since each order is going to get a book then we can assume that eshonai is probably going to be a dustbringer, but since there is going to be a book about ash (i.e additional lightweaver book) then where is BS going to fit willshapers?  

while there are 10 books, and ten orders, and Brandon has said each order will likely get a focus of one of the books... He also said that the character with the flashback focus won't necessarily belong to same KR order the book is focusing on.  He's also said the flashback character may not even be alive during the present timeline of the book.

while Brandon calls himself an outline writer, he also teaches that you need to let the story take itself where it needs to go.  He said while he knows who the next 7 books are about, he could change that too.  He's already changed already written cannon, when reprinting WoK.  I've decided to let the future story just reveal itself as it comes... You know journey before destination.

 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

2 hours ago, Slothspren said:

that's not how vacuum works (scientifically speaking). If kaladin is using vacuum to generate adhesion then theoretically this surge will not work in space. A per ars arcanum he sticks things by creating vacuum between adjoining surfaces and the atmospheric pressure around the object does all the work by pushing it towards the low pressure area. the highier the surrounding pressure is the more it will exert pressure on the low pressure area. the surrounding storm will rush towards that low pressure area with an enormous force and crush anything in-between. not to mention the absence of air in that vacuum would suffocate anyone caught in the low pressure zone due to lack of air.

Also it seems weird that a herald will switch his or her order. Unless someone else takes their place and the herald is reduced to being a normal person and they join another order as an ordinary radiant. even though the heralds are not ordinary humans anymore.

I am pretty sure that this is something different. I think that Kaladin is directing the windspren and creating essentially a large air foil. Are there any WoB that state specifically that the surge of adhesion only can lower pressure? If it can lower and increase pressure, then I can see that a properly formed windspren windfoil with pressure applied in the right fashion would allow an incredibly strong wind to be parted. Also, if the surge of adhesion allows for the increasing of pressure as well as the lowering of pressure, this has some pretty freaking rad implications. Picture this, Kaladin has 1/2 of his weight lashed upwards and the other 1/2 of his weight lashed towards the horizon, could he use the surge of pressure to swoop up (lowering the pressure above him like a human airplane wing) and swoop down (increasing the pressure above him like a racecar airfoil)? Also, the Bernoulli effect holds in all fluid systems, so could Kaladin create an air bubble around his head and propel himself through water at ridiculous speeds? Could he be superman and freaking Prince Namor? Master of the Sky and Sea, pretty rad to speculate.

[frozndevl]

Aren't years longer overall, just counting rawnhours, on Roshar. Wouldnt that offset some of the brain development arguments since Shallan on Earth would be a couple years older?

[StormingTexan]

23 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

Aren't years longer overall, just counting rawnhours, on Roshar. Wouldnt that offset some of the brain development arguments since Shallan on Earth would be a couple years older?

A year is 500 days so a 17 year old is around a 23 year old compared to earth and a 23 year old would be 31 earth years. 

[Arondell]

3 hours ago, Slothspren said:

that's not how vacuum works (scientifically speaking). If kaladin is using vacuum to generate adhesion then theoretically this surge will not work in space. A per ars arcanum he sticks things by creating vacuum between adjoining surfaces and the atmospheric pressure around the object does all the work by pushing it towards the low pressure area. the highier the surrounding pressure is the more it will exert pressure on the low pressure area. the surrounding storm will rush towards that low pressure area with an enormous force and crush anything in-between. not to mention the absence of air in that vacuum would suffocate anyone caught in the low pressure zone due to lack of air.

 

Having recalled an old chart of the surges that actually called the surge Atmospheric Pressure rather then Adhesion I just assumed that what Kaladin was doing was increasing the pressure about himself and creating a counter force to the storm.  At least if I work with the idea that the surge is about the manipulation of Atmospheric Pressure rather then Adhesion as such it seemed to make sense to me.  Including the ability to anticipate coming high storms since measurement of atmospheric pressure is actually used in real life storm prediction.

 

Oh and actually space is not a total vacuum.  There is quite a lot of gas in space.  At least one well known space craft concept relies on it. (e.g. Bussard Ramjet)

Edited November 12, 2017 by Arondell

[Steeldancer]

Atmospheric pressure makes so much more sense now. It's clearly what adhesion is, but honestly if this is the surge why can't we call it Pressure??

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

51 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

A year is 500 days so a 17 year old is around a 23 year old compared to earth and a 23 year old would be 31 earth years. 

Here is the WoB on how time works on Roshar.

A rosharian year has 500 days, but each day is only equivalent to 20 earth hours in length, giving the total earth hours for a year on Roshar a value of 10,000 hours. One earth year is 8,766 hours long, so one Rosharian year is really equivalent to 1.14 earth years. So if Shallan is 18 in world years old that would be an earth equivalent age of 20.52 years old. Adolin, if he is 24 rosharian years old would be 27.36 earth years old.

Edited November 12, 2017 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
disambiguation

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

6 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Atmospheric pressure makes so much more sense now. It's clearly what adhesion is, but honestly if this is the surge why can't we call it Pressure??

I think the reason for this is that adhesion carries some symbolic significance. It is the tendency of dissimilar elements to stick together, this ties in better with Kaladin's secondary divine attribute of Leading better the pressure and vacuum do. Also the discussion of how the surge of adhesion works is to show the cause of the effect, if you were describing just the effect adhesion seems like a good descriptor. But the thing that is rad about this is that with the discussion of the actual principle behind the effect, you have the ability to do a lot more with it. The best thing about Brandon's magic systems is his near limitless ability to extend them, and the forces of pressure and vacuum have a lot more room for extension (I think) than causing things to stick to each other (though it would be funny to see Kaladin recreate that super glue commercial where the guy is stuck to the bottom of a bridge by his hard hat).

[Slothspren]

1 hour ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I am pretty sure that this is something different. I think that Kaladin is directing the windspren and creating essentially a large air foil. Are there any WoB that state specifically that the surge of adhesion only can lower pressure? If it can lower and increase pressure, then I can see that a properly formed windspren windfoil with pressure applied in the right fashion would allow an incredibly strong wind to be parted. Also, if the surge of adhesion allows for the increasing of pressure as well as the lowering of pressure, this has some pretty freaking rad implications. Picture this, Kaladin has 1/2 of his weight lashed upwards and the other 1/2 of his weight lashed towards the horizon, could he use the surge of pressure to swoop up (lowering the pressure above him like a human airplane wing) and swoop down (increasing the pressure above him like a racecar airfoil)? Also, the Bernoulli effect holds in all fluid systems, so could Kaladin create an air bubble around his head and propel himself through water at ridiculous speeds? Could he be superman and freaking Prince Namor? Master of the Sky and Sea, pretty rad to speculate.

I agree with you and that's what I speculated earlier, that what he did was not just simple adhesion we have been seeing so far. It was the opposite of it so either he was able to increase the pressure and did the opposite of what he does when he sticks stuff ( i.e instead of creating low pressure he created high pressure) or maybe something entirely different. The implication of that could be interesting. Anyway it was cool that he created a mini-storm to oppose the high storm and create a relatively calm zone behind him for the people.  

Unrelated question: Is the book coming out on 12AM on 14th ? I can only afford to keep an ebook and have already pre-ordered but still its been a tough year or so waiting for it and then those initial few Kaladin's chapters had me in kinda perpetual fever-dream situation for weeks because it was too hard to wait for next chapters. 

[Slothspren]

Also, many people here are speculating voidblades. I think that's very unlikely because the mechanism of how Listeners and voidspren bond and how human surgebinders bond spren is very different. In Listeners the voidspren enter their body and take control of them like a parasite by fusing with the host, to form a blade the spren has to leave the body and turn into metallic form, which seems very unlikely since the Listeners dont like being used by the voidspren and in most cases are tricked into fusing with them.  

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

Thinking more about this, I think this might be a case for Kaladin's exceptionalism. Given that the most well documented form of Investiture in the Cosmere is Allomancy, and there are sub-groupings based on Physical/Emotional, Internal/External and Push/Pull, might not there be some similar logical groupings of surges. Each order of Knights Radiant shares it two surges with another 2 orders, might these distinctions manifest in Allomancy be one of the ways that the access to each surge is particular to each order. Like for example, Kaladin's use of Adhesion has been described as decreasing the pressure below the object that he is adhering, maybe the Bondsmith's use of this surge would be in increasing pressure above the thing to adhere. The one instance that makes me think this is the case is that Edgedancers and Dustbringers both share the surge of Abrasion (which really is just friction). Edgedancer's use this surge to reduce friction, but Dustbringers can make things catch on fire which seems like they are increasing the friction of a given system (creating heat and destruction). Edgedancers lubricate the ball bearings, Releasers cause the ball bearings to jam and the whole machine to catch on fire. Also, thinking along similar lines for the other orders that we have seen that share surges, the Truthwatchers and the Lightweavers share the surge of illumination. Might the division of this surge pairing be internal/external. Truthwatchers use the surge of illumination to see visions of the future (internal) while Lightweavers use the surge of Illumination to create illusions. Also the Lightweavers and Elsecallers similarly share the surge of Transformation, might the distinction here be emotional/physical? Shallan uses the surge of transformation to alter people's perception of who they are and who they could be (seems like an emotional transformation to me) and Jasnah uses her transformation surge to soulcast with exceptional mastery.

The Kaladin issue would seem to be the one outlier, but given how much he has been referred to as "Son of Honor/Tanavast", this could be one of the manifestations of his exceptionalism that he can use both the push and the pull of the Adhesion surge. Maybe he is descended from an ancestor that Tanavast Euoropa-ed or IOed, or possibly he is descended from Jezrien. This is all just total speculation, but kind of interesting to think about shared surges and the possibility that there is specific implementation of a given surge for a given order.

[Slothspren]

6 minutes ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Thinking more about this, I think this might be a case for Kaladin's exceptionalism. Given that the most well documented form of Investiture in the Cosmere is Allomancy, and there are sub-groupings based on Physical/Emotional, Internal/External and Push/Pull, might not there be some similar logical groupings of surges. Each order of Knights Radiant shares it two surges with another 2 orders, might these distinctions manifest in Allomancy be one of the ways that the access to each surge is particular to each order. Like for example, Kaladin's use of Adhesion has been described as decreasing the pressure below the object that he is adhering, maybe the Bondsmith's use of this surge would be in increasing pressure above the thing to adhere. The one instance that makes me think this is the case is that Edgedancers and Dustbringers both share the surge of Abrasion (which really is just friction). Edgedancer's use this surge to reduce friction, but Dustbringers can make things catch on fire which seems like they are increasing the friction of a given system (creating heat and destruction). Edgedancers lubricate the ball bearings, Releasers cause the ball bearings to jam and the whole machine to catch on fire. Also, thinking along similar lines for the other orders that we have seen that share surges, the Truthwatchers and the Lightweavers share the surge of illumination. Might the division of this surge pairing be internal/external. Truthwatchers use the surge of illumination to see visions of the future (internal) while Lightweavers use the surge of Illumination to create illusions. Also the Lightweavers and Elsecallers similarly share the surge of Transformation, might the distinction here be emotional/physical? Shallan uses the surge of transformation to alter people's perception of who they are and who they could be (seems like an emotional transformation to me) and Jasnah uses her transformation surge to soulcast with exceptional mastery.

The Kaladin issue would seem to be the one outlier, but given how much he has been referred to as "Son of Honor/Tanavast", this could be one of the manifestations of his exceptionalism that he can use both the push and the pull of the Adhesion surge. Maybe he is descended from an ancestor that Tanavast Euoropa-ed or IOed, or possibly he is descended from Jezrien. This is all just total speculation, but kind of interesting to think about shared surges and the possibility that there is specific implementation of a given surge for a given order.

pressure reduction is not described for kaladin just some speculation in ars arcanum about how adhesion works. But its obvious that each order uses their surges differently by combining them in some way with other surges. I mentioned in some previous post that truthwatchers can probably see the future with help of lightweaving like renarin does while  lightweavers can see the the event of past or at least near past or present. Like shallan drew a picture of yalb and rest of the crew reaching the beach and I think she drew something else similar to that but I don't remember the details now. As for jasnah's mastery of soulcasting is probably because its natural to her, she is natural at being assertive and dominant and orders that rope to change (in that non-canon jasnah chapter) while shallan is timid naturally and had to beg the stick but stick-sama didnt budge. 

Anyway I dont think if kaladins abilities have anything to do with being tanavast descendent. its been like 5000 years at least since humans came to roshar and even if he had any bloodline its probably gone by now, mixed with everyone else. And even if he was direct descendent of tanavast it wouldn't have mattered because its verryyyy unlikely that he reproduced any children after holding a shard, since the body vaporizes. And pre-shattering shardholders were just normal guys with maybe some normal magical abilities so being their offspring wont matter at all after so many millenia . 
Stormfather probably calls everyone son of honor, hence that sons of honor organization. The whole "chose one because special bloodline hurr durr" trope is too much for me and I certainly hope BS doesn't play it. So far he has not played it and that makes his characters more relatable as they have to rise through the ranks through struggle and hard work not because of some mundane cliched fantasy tropes. In fact he often does the opposite of the chosen one trope, like in white sand Kenton is weaker than everyone else and still rises because of his determination and hardwork. 

[Darvys]

Well for the Kaladin bit, nothing yet explains his affinity with the winds, which manifested before Syl was in the picture. Regardless of its cause, whether that was a prerequisite for all windrunners or something special, we have yet to find out (i think).

[Slothspren]

20 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Well for the Kaladin bit, nothing yet explains his affinity with the winds, which manifested before Syl was in the picture. Regardless of its cause, whether that was a prerequisite for all windrunners or something special, we have yet to find out (i think).

where was his affinity to winds shown before Syl's arrival? I think he mentioned that he has always been fascinated by heights (and winds too i guess but i dont remember). The first time he was shown doing something related to wind was while he was squad leader trying to save cenn.

[Darvys]

6 minutes ago, Slothspren said:

where was his affinity to winds shown before Syl's arrival? I think he mentioned that he has always been fascinated by heights (and winds too i guess but i dont remember). The first time he was shown doing something related to wind was while he was squad leader trying to save cenn.

Syl stating the winds knew him and led her to him or something like that, there was also that sparring match in his youth but i went back to check and i guess it only showcases his gift with the spear (which might or might not be related). That's all i can think of right now, i can't tell for sure if there was more.

[maxal]

2 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Here is the WoB on how time works on Roshar.

A rosharian year has 500 days, but each day is only equivalent to 20 earth hours in length, giving the total earth hours for a year on Roshar a value of 10,000 hours. One earth year is 8,766 hours long, so one Rosharian year is really equivalent to 1.14 earth years. So if Shallan is 18 in world years old that would be an earth equivalent age of 20.52 years old. Adolin, if he is 24 rosharian years old would be 27.36 earth years old.

Adolin just turned 23, so he definitely is not 24. I personally do not care much for the "Earth age", books aren't supposed to be read with calculator and the greater majority of the readers have no idea about this. I thus consider the character to be the age the books say they are.

[Steeldancer]

5 minutes ago, maxal said:

Adolin just turned 23, so he definitely is not 24. I personally do not care much for the "Earth age", books aren't supposed to be read with calculator and the greater majority of the readers have no idea about this. I thus consider the character to be the age the books say they are.

Exactly. 

They age equivalent to us in relation to a year. We age a year a year. They age a year... Every Rosharian year. So they might have longer lifetimes technically. But not really. 

[Darvys]

You argue over how long days and years are and how old they would be on earth but just assume that rosharans develop the same way and at the same rate we do, this argument is a dead end, one of those cases where the author can do whatever he wants and only need to say that's how it is (not that this is even an issue).

Edited November 13, 2017 by Darvys

[FollowYourMuse]

6 hours ago, Salkara said:

I'm not going to go and find them all, but there are all the couples Adolin was friends with when he was courting Danlan. I think we see some more of them in WoR during some of the date scenes he has with Shallan.

We do not know any of their ages. In looking, we actually get very little on ages. per coppermind, Navani is born between 1113  - 1123 so possibly up to 10 years younger than Dalinar. 

Otherthan Adolin as the youngest to get a shardblade, we can guess the others are older than he is, or have had their blades for less time.

 

@Leyrann, I agree we do not really have enough information.

Edited November 12, 2017 by FollowYourMuse

[QuantumHarmonix]

12 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Thinking more about this, I think this might be a case for Kaladin's exceptionalism. Given that the most well documented form of Investiture in the Cosmere is Allomancy, and there are sub-groupings based on Physical/Emotional, Internal/External and Push/Pull, might not there be some similar logical groupings of surges. Each order of Knights Radiant shares it two surges with another 2 orders, might these distinctions manifest in Allomancy be one of the ways that the access to each surge is particular to each order. Like for example, Kaladin's use of Adhesion has been described as decreasing the pressure below the object that he is adhering, maybe the Bondsmith's use of this surge would be in increasing pressure above the thing to adhere. The one instance that makes me think this is the case is that Edgedancers and Dustbringers both share the surge of Abrasion (which really is just friction). Edgedancer's use this surge to reduce friction, but Dustbringers can make things catch on fire which seems like they are increasing the friction of a given system (creating heat and destruction). Edgedancers lubricate the ball bearings, Releasers cause the ball bearings to jam and the whole machine to catch on fire. Also, thinking along similar lines for the other orders that we have seen that share surges, the Truthwatchers and the Lightweavers share the surge of illumination. Might the division of this surge pairing be internal/external. Truthwatchers use the surge of illumination to see visions of the future (internal) while Lightweavers use the surge of Illumination to create illusions. Also the Lightweavers and Elsecallers similarly share the surge of Transformation, might the distinction here be emotional/physical? Shallan uses the surge of transformation to alter people's perception of who they are and who they could be (seems like an emotional transformation to me) and Jasnah uses her transformation surge to soulcast with exceptional mastery.

The Kaladin issue would seem to be the one outlier, but given how much he has been referred to as "Son of Honor/Tanavast", this could be one of the manifestations of his exceptionalism that he can use both the push and the pull of the Adhesion surge. Maybe he is descended from an ancestor that Tanavast Euoropa-ed or IOed, or possibly he is descended from Jezrien. This is all just total speculation, but kind of interesting to think about shared surges and the possibility that there is specific implementation of a given surge for a given order.

Personally, I'm expecting the voidbindings to be the pull to the surgebinders push. Just because a surge would be the opposite of a void. I think that would fit pretty well with the symmetry relationships between the symbols on their respective charts. It is also interesting that the respective spren seem to be on opposite sides of an internal/external relationship as well. The surgebinders spren would be external and the voidbinders spren seem to be internal. Though I'm not sure we've seen enough voidbinders to be sure their spren don't also have the ability to manifest after bonding the way we've seen that the surgebinders spren can. Given Eshonai's transformation it seems like a safe bet, but I'm not sure we've seen enough to be certain.

[Blacksmithki]

7 hours ago, QuantumHarmonix said:

Personally, I'm expecting the voidbindings to be the pull to the surgebinders push. Just because a surge would be the opposite of a void. I think that would fit pretty well with the symmetry relationships between the symbols on their respective charts. It is also interesting that the respective spren seem to be on opposite sides of an internal/external relationship as well. The surgebinders spren would be external and the voidbinders spren seem to be internal. Though I'm not sure we've seen enough voidbinders to be sure their spren don't also have the ability to manifest after bonding the way we've seen that the surgebinders spren can. Given Eshonai's transformation it seems like a safe bet, but I'm not sure we've seen enough to be certain.

Listen to the new interlude, I think I missed a good bit f it but I'm pretty sure the Spren manifested.

[Aminar]

57 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

Listen to the new interlude, I think I missed a good bit f it but I'm pretty sure the Spren manifested.

Which Spren? None of the Spren in there are bonded and manifest. 

[QuantumHarmonix]

2 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

Listen to the new interlude, I think I missed a good bit f it but I'm pretty sure the Spren manifested.

I found that right after posting. It seems like the odium high spren don't bond and the listeners instead bond with lesser dumb spren. Not sure what that means for the charts.