Ammanas Posted September 1, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2018 (edited) On 8/28/2018 at 9:56 PM, officiumdefunctorum said: was disappointed that he didn't do the rest of Malazan, and wonder why he didn't. I thought there was a contract dispute, but I could be wrong about that (I can't remember where that information came from). Edited September 1, 2018 by Ammanas 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) On 8/30/2018 at 5:54 PM, Ammanas said: Let us know your final thoughts when you finish. Look for the cyclical ending too; I recommend reading the prologue to Gardens right afterwards. The first and last sentence about Mock's weather vane (with the vane being a metaphor for the current state of the empire). Also a young boy coming up to a grizzled veteran and saying "I want to be a Soldier" HOLY CRAP!! That is possibly the best ending of any series ever made. Thanks again for helping me get past the glass desert! I did re-read the prologue of Gardens of the Moon, and it's amazing. @Ammanas have you read the annotations to chapter 1 of Gardens of the Moon on Erickson's website? He uses the analogy that setting up self-referential metaphor is like the ringing of a bell, and he did this in the first scene of the siege nof Pale, which he used as a kind of self contained circular symbol to bring readers back around in just the first chapter of the book. The weather vane in context of this series is like the tolling of a massive gong, but holy crap, it SO GOOD! The rest of my comments are going to be in a spoiler tag, because they're going to be about the Crippled God and the whole Erickson series. Spoiler So really, after Yedan Derryg kills the first dragon in Kharkanus, the Crippled God gets incredibly good. It's actually a testament to Erickson's writing, that after 9 books of Malazan I almost threw in the towel during the trek through the glass desert, he wanted it to seem like an unending slog, and man, I felt it. At the start of Dust of Dreams I was really kind of upset that he introduced the Forkrul Assail as new antagonists, and how the final book of this amazing and expansive series seemed like it was going to repeat the pattern of the last 8 books. After Toll of the Hounds, (which is still my favorite Malazan book, though that might change on the reread) and it's pretty big tangent (I thought), I was ready for Dust of Dreams to pick up the main thread of the forces amassing for the final showdown with the Crippled God. I was incredibly upset when, once again, the forces of Good were seemingly arbitrarily divided (like against the Panion Domon). My initial thought was, oh great, here we go again, this is just poor structuring and the insertion of artificial conflict. BUT the division of troops in TCG makes me believe that Erickson actually had the stupid division of forces in Memories of Ice to prepare the readers expectations to believe that this division likewise would be arbitrary, fruitless and ultimately meaningless. BUT HOLY CRAP, it was brilliant. The betrayal of the Gray Helms, the strategic distribution of forces, and the brilliant plan of attracting the Ottaral dragon to break the crippled gods chains, holy crap that is pure Genius. His endings always were amazing, but like all of you said, this is the Ending to trump all endings. By the end of the Crippled God, the Forkrul Assail became my favorite antagonists of ALL TIMES. I don't know if this is too dated or not, but there's a movie from the 80's with Michael Keaton called Johnny Dangerously, and there's a crime boss that is from a foreign country and he swears with false cognates (calls people Fargin' Iceholes). And the name Forkrul Assail, introduced first in Book 2? When Karsa frees Calm, is totally such a long play. Erickson is a very philosophically minded author (not unlike Brandon Sanderson) and I think he reserved the Assails for the final villains because they represent what he hates most about humanity. The names of the Forkrul Assail are all subverted by their actions, they are hypocritical jerks that use their power because they like seeing other's brought low. They are the junior high hall monitors that smile as they hand out the yellow slip for running in the halls. I think that it's telling that their two magical powers are to wound/command with their voice and to strike people with just their hands. They want to inflict pain, and they are sadists to the extreme who hide behind a very thin veil of moral superiority. It's seriously something I think, when someone cuts me off in traffic I think "What a Fork-ing Assail" And if each of these Pures is viewed as Major Villain (which they are in there own right) we get to see at least 5 of these ultimate villian brought down. SO GOOD. And the feels in this ending, holy crap, soo good! I was reading as fast as I could, so I really didn't keep track of the number of times that I cried during this ending, but it was a lot. I was so happy for Onas T'oolan when he got reuinted with Hetan and his kids! I'm getting a little teary now just typing this. AND it was Toc the Younger that made it happen. So good. Also the part when Yedan Derryg says that "He's come home", holy crap, I need to get my kleenex. I love how Erickson brought back Kalaam and Quick Ben too, and how tangentially you see what might be coming for Laseen and Korbolo Dom when Kalaam is back in town (I might have to write a Mack the knife parody of that, if I do, I'll post it here). Tavore's arc was absolutely brilliant, but when it's all said and done, I still want to see Paran give her a big hug. Erickson writes in a morally gray area, but life is essentially morally gray. I love Brandon's work because like Plutarch, I feel like I am better person after having read his books. But Erickson totally made me wait until book 10 for the moral payoff, but the Journey has made the Destination more precious. Tavore is such a great character, and she also holds the promise of showing through very compelling storytelling that believing in and doing the right thing are enough, and even further that compassion can be the solution to even the most complex of problems. Gush, gush, gush. There were moments during reading Malazan (especially during the Onrack/Trull Sengar bromance) where I was thinking "Why I am reading this again, and why do people think this is the best fantasy series ever?" But, each moment of doubt is part of the journey really, just like the glass desert. I LOVED the part where Badalle called upon the FA's god to destroy the FA that had just flayed Tavore, Lastora Yil, Ruthan Gudd, etc. The symbolism of the Ultimate Assail (used in the pejorative sense) being devoured by a swarm of thoughtless insects (which is their god) that devour from the inside out, invoked by a child that had found her Voice of protest precisely because of their Assail-ness was so Freaking amazing that I can completely forgive the buildup of the Ribby snake. Just like I can forgive the whole heavy handed Bridge Four section of Way of Kings because it ends with Kaladin's Chasm Jump to save the Kholins. It's actually one of the things that bothered in Brandon's writing, like the ridiculous oppression of the Skaa, and Kaladin's concern for the bridgemen, the idea that you are creating a horrible condition in order to amplify the moment when these artificially created hardships are overcome. I think this argument still holds slightly for BWS, but the direction, the symbolic implication, and the magnitude of effect of Badalles come-up-ance on the Forkrul Assail COMPLETELY justifies the Ribby Snake in books 9 and 10 in my mind, it was just SO FREAKING AMAZING. I still have some issues with the ending that I probably won't sort out until my 2nd or 3rd reread, unless you (some of the most amazingly intelligent people that I have the good fortune to associate with) can help me out with the details of why these things happened or how they actually happened. So Koryk, who had been built up as being slightly broken in the brain, is the only one to object to Cotillion knifing the Crippled God in the back. Does this have to do with the fact that Heboric Ghost hands (who was dead) had a hold of the CG's hand, and was able to guide him, bereft of his body, to his own realm (and take those jade fingers with him)? This seemed slightly antithetical to the whole Compassion narrative that had been built up, but Fiddler did say that it was the only way (and from CG we know that he was the best of the BridgeBurners). I wish that Itkovian (who was one of my absolute favorite characters in Memories of Ice) and his stuggles as the Redeemer in Toll of the Hounds had more of an impact on the ending. I mean, he was a dramatic counterpoint as Shield Anvil to Tanakalian of the Gray Helms, but I was hoping for more. Who in Fener's Name is Ruthan Gudd? Where did Draconus go? (I loved the scene where Sechul Lath is dying and his progeny Oppon are talking about how they're going to wait at Hood's Gate to give the Errant "a nudge" through the gate. That was a teary eyed moment. The revelation that Felash's maid was actually a Seguleh, and that her mom had ensorceled more Seguleh into guard duty. Does this come up anywhere else in the ICE Malazan? Also, why were there pickled Seguleh in K'rall's temple? The 17th shard is the only forum that I post on (because it's the best) but I am going to listen to the last part of the Crippled God again, and I am sure I'll have more questions about this. Thanks all of you sharders for being smart, kind and awesome, I love this thread. This is non-spoilery kind of stuff, but I am listening to Night of Knives, and I have to say, it is SO BAD. I thought I would try the Novels of the Malazan Empire first, at what point does Esselmont find his own voice as an author (because this 2nd rate Erickson impersonation really is not doing it for me). As the glass desert totally attests to, I defer to your guy's expertise, but I am really having a hard time with NoK. He says something like the "Verdigris on his Brass helmet", like he's using words just because Erickson used them to establish a "Malazan" mood, even though he has no idea what the word means. He seems to have a good focus on action and info dumps, but I have been wearing out the back 30 seconds button on my audible app trying to find the point at which he says something important. I seriously can tune this audiobook out like no other that I've listened to, Edited September 7, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briar King Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 The reread of NoK is better. Atleast it’s a veryyyy short book. Give it a chance. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelEy3 Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 Esslemont really picks up in Return of the Crimson Guard and Stonewielder (2&3.) 1. I think the 'broken' part of Koryk was his viciousness. His objection was that, like us, he didn't see it coming that they had to kill TCG to release him. I trust Fid that it was the only way. 2. Itkovian, while not directly influencing the ending, did team up with Mother Dark to save Black Coral from the Dying God. Which freed Nimander/Spinnock to lead the Andii to the Shore and stop the Liosan from taking Kharkanas and the Hold of Darkness. The Liosan are also loosely allied with the Forkrul Assail iirc. Them winning would have been very very bad for our protagonists at the final battle. 3. No one knows who Ruthan Gudd is. But everyone has a theory. 4. Draconus presumably keeps hunting other Elder Gods, but makes an appearance again in the Esslemont books. 5. I don't remember anything about Bolkando coming back up or the Queen's ensorcelled Segulah being mentioned again. RAFO Esslemont to find out about the pickled ones. Really glad you enjoyed it! Great final thoughts too, I got chills a couple times just reading your highlights. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ammanas Posted September 7, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 According to Erikson, Ruthan Gudd will be addressed in Kharkanus but either he has forgotten about him or it will happen in the third Kharkanus book (if it ever gets published). Perhaps it will know be addressed in the Karsa books? I agree ths KoK is the weakest thing Esslemont has written. I just did a reread of RotCG and thought while it was a vast improvement, and had some great scenes, it still suffered from some pacing problems. I think Stonewielder is when he really finds his stride. Orb, Sceptre, Throne is all about the Segulah and will answer just about every question about them (including why some are pickled). Even if the original six Esslemont books are not for you still give Dancers Lament, Deadhouse Landing, and the upcoming Kellaveds Reach a chance. The author completely changed his prose and I have found them to be a real delight! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelEy3 Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 I 2nd that wholeheartedly. Path to Ascendancy is where Esslemont really really shines. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
officiumdefunctorum Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 I feel like night of knives is an ill conceived introduction to characters that will later be important in that series. Tay, Kiske, the Stormriders, etc. Like an extended prologue. As for Ruthan Gudd, especially if he's getting addressed in Karkhanus, it's probably a safe bet that he's Spoiler one of the Azathenai. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelEy3 Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 1 hour ago, officiumdefunctorum said: I feel like night of knives is an ill conceived introduction to characters that will later be important in that series. Tay, Kiske, the Stormriders, etc. Like an extended prologue. As for Ruthan Gudd, especially if he's getting addressed in Karkhanus, it's probably a safe bet that he's Hide contents one of the Azathenai. Spoiler My money is on Arathan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, Briar King said: The reread of NoK is better. Atleast it’s a veryyyy short book. Give it a chance. I am going to make it through NoK, and I can see glimmers of the type of good writer he might develop into (there are some very well paced action sequences and there is also a certain clarity of exposition that is satisfying), but his use of language is just so clumsy in this book. The scene where the Shadow hound appears when Kiske is tied up and a prisoner, and she describes the hound as being unbelievably big, and then goes on to say it was as large as a mule, man that's some stinky writing. Metaphor should enhance not detract from the mood. One of the most epic beasts in Malazan being compared to a mule takes a lot of the punch out of the scene. All that said, I really appreciate your opinion, and will try and tone down my critical faculties and just enjoy the story. Really glad to hear this 10 hours ago, AngelEy3 said: Esslemont really picks up in Return of the Crimson Guard and Stonewielder (2&3.) and this. 5 hours ago, Ammanas said: I agree ths KoK is the weakest thing Esslemont has written. I just did a reread of RotCG and thought while it was a vast improvement, and had some great scenes, it still suffered from some pacing problems. I think Stonewielder is when he really finds his stride. Before I read Erickson's book of the Fallen, I was reading through this thread a bit, and it seems like the pay off for ICE's Novels of the Malazan Empire really comes in Orb, Scepter, Throne. Based on what you've all said I'll stick it through these books too. And I am seriously looking forward to the Path to Ascendancy books. Nice to hear that I didn't really miss something about Ruthan Gudd and that he is as mysterious a figure as he seemed during the first read through. Thanks AngelEy3 for helping to tie up the loose ends for me, looking forward to going deeper into the world of Malazan. Edited September 7, 2018 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine typo, like usual 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who Sharded? Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 Opinions on ICE's books are all over the place. My personal favorite is Orb, Sceptre, Throne, but a lot of people on the Malazan forum think it's the worst. My least favorites are Blood & Bone, and Assail. The only consensus is that the Path to Ascendancy books are great. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlion Blight Posted September 7, 2018 Report Share Posted September 7, 2018 42 minutes ago, Who Sharded? said: Opinions on ICE's books are all over the place. My personal favorite is Orb, Sceptre, Throne, but a lot of people on the Malazan forum think it's the worst. My least favorites are Blood & Bone, and Assail. The only consensus is that the Path to Ascendancy books are great. Stonewielder is my favorite of the 7 Malazan Empire series, followed by Blood & Bone (which admittedly has a weeeaaak ending!) Then Orb, Sceptre, Throne which I might have enjoyed more if I didn't view it as a direct sequel/ continuation of Toll the Hounds. Assail had some good pages right at the end, but I might actually rate it as the worst. Path to Ascendency is absolutely an improvement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briar King Posted September 12, 2018 Report Share Posted September 12, 2018 Finished TTH just now. What a vast difference in these 2 reads. Really enjoyed it this time. onto SW now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briar King Posted September 18, 2018 Report Share Posted September 18, 2018 Have been super into Netflix and Xenoblade and NFL every free moment so not much progress on SW since starting. Only around pg 50 but I’m super interested in Korel. The map is pretty wicked but I found a weird direction error. Very cool to be here though after just the barest of mentions of it in main 10. My pace will definitely increase after I get done with all this Netflix binging. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
officiumdefunctorum Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 Possibly foolishly, I joined the Malazan Empire Facebook group. There seem to be a disproportionate number of cads and ruffians mucking up the friendly discussion. I prefer our discourse here. What's everyone reading right now? Anybody still plugging along with Malazan or ICE? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orlion Blight Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 47 minutes ago, officiumdefunctorum said: Possibly foolishly, I joined the Malazan Empire Facebook group. There seem to be a disproportionate number of cads and ruffians mucking up the friendly discussion. I prefer our discourse here. What's everyone reading right now? Anybody still plugging along with Malazan or ICE? Let's see, I'm reading Invisible Planets (a collection of Chinese science fiction short stories) and complaining about Brandon's writing schedule. You? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briar King Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 (edited) I definitely don’t recommend the FB group. I learned a long time ago not to post there cause once you do your notifications go on crack at all the replies/likes. Just join the Malazan forums. I’m still going with SW but as I said posts ago the going is slow atm. To much Netflix, NFL and Xenoblade taking my reading time at present. Only on pg 89 but I’m really digging it. Edited September 24, 2018 by Briar King 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
officiumdefunctorum Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 @Briar King I've grown fond of the "turn off notifications about this post" button, for sure. I'll consider the forum! I've unfortunately stumbled upon the people that seem to enjoy Erikson for the wrong reasons, and learn nothing from his excellent use of allegory and unsubtle philosophizing. @TheOrlionThatComesBefore I'm finishing a Gentleman Bastards re-read, and five books into the Spellmonger series, because I needed levity in my life now that school has started again. Almost done with main arc of The Witcher, only Tower of Swallows to go. Thinking about maybe going for Gwynne when I've stopped bouncing around, though only the first book is available on Audible in the US. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briar King Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 I loved Lies and Red but Republic.... I HATED¡¡¡ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
officiumdefunctorum Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 33 minutes ago, Briar King said: I loved Lies and Red but Republic.... I HATED¡¡¡ First read, I felt similarly. Second read, it grew on me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briar King Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 I disliked it so much that I prob won’t buy bk 4 till paperback unless the reviews are beyond out of this world for it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelEy3 Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 @officiumdefunctorum Try this out if you are looking for Malazan discussion. https://discord.gg/A5zPMZH It's pretty much the opposite of ruffians 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ammanas Posted September 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 21 hours ago, officiumdefunctorum said: What's everyone reading right now? Anybody still plugging along with Malazan or ICE? I've been making my way through the Otherland series (currently on the last one). I've been taking some occasional breaks reading Port of Shadows (Glen Cook) and Bloody Rose (Eames); they were both good, but not as good as their predecessor(s). Currently reading the library book The Traitor God (Johnston) its ok; not the best, but not the worst book I've read. I also recently reread one of my favorite CAS short stories (The Colossus of Ylourgne) that anyone can read, legally, for free. http://www.eldritchdark.com/writings/short-stories/27/the-colossus-of-ylourgne I've been meaning to give the Stonewielder audiobook another listen, but am currently on a Wheel of Time audio read. This is seriously my third attempt and this time I started with the fourth book. I feel like Tad Williams has finally prepared me for Robert Jordan by focusing on Worldbuilding and characters rather than anything happening. There are still a ton of things that annoy me about WoT but I am listening at a blistering 1.8 speed so I can get through the annoying stuff rather quickly. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
officiumdefunctorum Posted September 24, 2018 Report Share Posted September 24, 2018 1 minute ago, Ammanas said: I've been meaning to give the Stonewielder audiobook another listen, but am currently on a Wheel of Time audio read. This is seriously my third attempt and this time I started with the fourth book. I feel like Tad Williams has finally prepared me for Robert Jordan by focusing on Worldbuilding and characters rather than anything happening. There are still a ton of things that annoy me about WoT but I am listening at a blistering 1.8 speed so I can get through the annoying stuff rather quickly. I don't know, I just thoroughly enjoyed my audiobook experience the first time around, and the second (taking a break from my third at Crown of Swords). Michael Kramer and Kate Reading make it a better experience, I think. I unashamedly skipped a good chunk of Perrin's angst fest in Ghealdan, though. And a lot of the stuff with Egwene and Elayne. :| It has its faults, but I bloody love it. My sister and I are going to JordanCon in the spring! I'll probably do an ICE re-read this winter. It all feels really fresh, even though it's been almost a year since my first listen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Who Sharded? Posted September 25, 2018 Report Share Posted September 25, 2018 On 9/23/2018 at 8:00 PM, officiumdefunctorum said: What's everyone reading right now? Anybody still plugging along with Malazan or ICE? I've just started on another giant series of fantasy doorstoppers--Janny Wurts' Wars of Light and Shadow. I'm about 170 pages into the first book and the prose is taking some getting used to, but I can see it has potential. I read slowly and take breaks between books in series, so there will not be regular updates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelEy3 Posted September 26, 2018 Report Share Posted September 26, 2018 @officiumdefunctorum I'm reading Caliban's War from The Expanse. It's really good so far. Picked up at the recommendation of @Ammanas 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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