"The One Who Hates" Chapter

[Stormrunner1730]

Just wanted to comment on how brilliantly constructed the chapter "The One Who Hate" in Word of Radiance is (I just read it on my Stormlight re-read).  For reference, it's the chapter where Szeth first tries to assassinate Dalinar and ends up fighting Kaladin, Dalinar, and Adolin.  The title is perfect, as it references both (primarily) Odium and his presence/influence throughout the event (or rather the fact that someone is trying to kill one of his leading antagonists) and Szeth (who hates having to carry out this order, but does it anyways).  The chapter is also paced perfectly.  I love how Sanderson cuts between Shallan's POV and Kaladin/Adolin's POV.  The POV cuts are quick and serve to show the rising tension in the sequence.  You can feel Kaladin's desperation as he realizes that something real bad is about to happen.  The entire scene funnels into the image of Szeth in the hallway (such an awesome image btw).  The fight itself is epic and provides awesome character moments for all involved (Szeth's burst of emotion at finding out Kaladin is a Surgebinder is perfect).  

In an unrelated comment, my favorite chapter title in the series is probably "Death Wears White" though (Szeth WOK interlude where he kills the king of Jah Kaved).  

[CaptainRyan]

It truly is a great chapter. If you have not heard of/ listened to the Graphic Audio adaptations of the Stormlight Archive then I highly recommend you check them out. I routinely go back to this chapter for the scene where Kaladin and Szeth have their discussion after the fall from the building. As you said, so emotional. Szeth is so raw in that moment and Kaladin is so confused.

[Stormrunner1730]

22 minutes ago, CaptainRyan said:

It truly is a great chapter. If you have not heard of/ listened to the Graphic Audio adaptations of the Stormlight Archive then I highly recommend you check them out. I routinely go back to this chapter for the scene where Kaladin and Szeth have their discussion after the fall from the building. As you said, so emotional. Szeth is so raw in that moment and Kaladin is so confused.

I'll have to check out the Graphic Audio adaptation.  But yeah I think the only Szeth moment with more emotion is the "I am not Truthless!" moment from his and Kaladin's fight later on (which is perhaps my favorite fight sequence in a story ever).  

[thejopen27]

On 10/18/2017 at 3:24 PM, Stormrunner1730 said:

I'll have to check out the Graphic Audio adaptation.  But yeah I think the only Szeth moment with more emotion is the "I am not Truthless!" moment from his and Kaladin's fight later on (which is perhaps my favorite fight sequence in a story ever).  

Does the rewrite change this scene emotionally? I understood in the original that Szeth refuses to defend himself, he lets Kaladin kill him. How does it work in the rewritten scene. 

I agree that the imagery of Szeth in the dark hallway with the rain outside, glowing is amazing.

Edited October 21, 2017 by thejopen27

[Gigalemesh]

5 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

Does the rewrite change this scene emotionally? understood in the original that Szeth refuses to defend himself, he lets Kaladin kill him. How does it work in the rewritten scene. 

I agree that the imagery of Szeth in the dark hallway with the rain outside, glowing is amazing.

I only ever read the paperback with the rewritten scene, and I found it powerfully emotional. Szeth still refuses to defend himself, and believes he is allowing Kaladin to kill him, Kaladin ends up not doing it and Szeth is instead consumed by the storm, but I think all the impact in terms of Szeth's choices and motivations remains. Though I obviously I don't know how it read beforehand.

[Mulk]

From Szeth's standpoint it changes nothing at all.

From Kaladin's standpoint...well, apparently Brandon thought the fact that Kaladin still killed him after establishing to Szeth's satisfaction that he was not in fact Truthless and therefore not bound to murder or obey didn't sit too well in light of Kaladin's new standing.  I dunno, it's clear something about it seemed off to him or he wouldn't have done it.  As a reader I don't see how go ahead and killing a guy who has tried to kill you, tried to kill the man you are sworn to protect and succeeded in killing some of your friends is a problem - in Kaladin's place you'd have to trust 100% in Szeth's words that he is no longer a threat.  I don't know that anyone could in that situation.  So I'm fine with the original ending, which is safely ensconced in my hardcover copy and I've no desire to have in my possession a copy with the altered ending.

[thejopen27]

5 hours ago, Mulk said:

From Szeth's standpoint it changes nothing at all.

From Kaladin's standpoint...well, apparently Brandon thought the fact that Kaladin still killed him after establishing to Szeth's satisfaction that he was not in fact Truthless and therefore not bound to murder or obey didn't sit too well in light of Kaladin's new standing.  I dunno, it's clear something about it seemed off to him or he wouldn't have done it.  As a reader I don't see how go ahead and killing a guy who has tried to kill you, tried to kill the man you are sworn to protect and succeeded in killing some of your friends is a problem - in Kaladin's place you'd have to trust 100% in Szeth's words that he is no longer a threat.  I don't know that anyone could in that situation.  So I'm fine with the original ending, which is safely ensconced in my hardcover copy and I've no desire to have in my possession a copy with the altered ending.

Killing, especially for Kaladin is a problem, especially someone who is clearly disturbed and distressed. Killing is always distructive, even if it was the right thing to do. Killing has an emotional price on the killer. Kaladin had regrets about having to kill the Parshendi, he regrets killing Szeth in the original scene. I'm not being very eloquent, but there are some famous novels and movies all about how killing leaves a stain and corrupts the soul, even if it's with good intentions: Shane, Road to Perdition, Godfather trilogy, Logan, etc. One of the major themes of A Song of Ice and Fire is that violence always leads to violence and that revenge is a never-ending cycle that causes destruction to the innocent and helpless. Stephen Spielberg's Munich is a great depiction of how even righteous violence destroys, warps, corrupts the ones who have to carry out the acts. 

I love that Kaladin is a fantasy hero who tries not to kill, that he even objects to killing his non-human enemies. 

BUT... in the original scene Kaladin doesn't intentionally kill Szeth. He is trying to force Szeth to block but Szeth allows himself to be killed by not blocking. 

[thejopen27]

10 hours ago, Gigalemesh said:

I only ever read the paperback with the rewritten scene, and I found it powerfully emotional. Szeth still refuses to defend himself, and believes he is allowing Kaladin to kill him, Kaladin ends up not doing it and Szeth is instead consumed by the storm, but I think all the impact in terms of Szeth's choices and motivations remains. Though I obviously I don't know how it read beforehand.

I wonder if Brandon just wanted to backtrack on being able to revive a shardblade death. Or he thought it strained credulity that Nale would be able to get to Szeth in time if one only has moments to heal a shard-severed death. 

[Gigalemesh]

16 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

I wonder if Brandon just wanted to backtrack on being able to revive a shardblade death. Or he thought it strained credulity that Nale would be able to get to Szeth in time if one only has moments to heal a shard-severed death. 

From what I've been able to gather it was actually about Kaladin, Brandon felt it was a better choice for his character and nature as a wind runner not have him execute Szeth like that. There are some WoBs about it 

[thejopen27]

4 minutes ago, Gigalemesh said:

From what I've been able to gather it was actually about Kaladin, Brandon felt it was a better choice for his character and nature as a wind runner not have him execute Szeth like that. There are some WoBs about it 

I don't think we should always assume that Brandon tells us the everything, or that he doesn't sometimes say one thing that is true to obscure something else that is also true. But generally you're probably right.

I just never saw it as an intentional kill by Kaladin in the first place. It reads as a testing jab that accidental is a knockout because the opponent unexpectedly drops all his defenses. 

 

Edited October 21, 2017 by thejopen27

[Gigalemesh]

11 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

I don't think we should always assume that Brandon tells us the everything, or that he doesn't sometimes say one thing that is true to obscure something else that is also true. But generally you're probably right.

I just never saw it as an intentional kill by Kaladin in the first place. It reads as a testing jab that accidental is a knockout because the opponent unexpectedly drops all his defenses. 

 

I'll give way to your superior knowledge on how it played out, I was just relaying the stuff I've read since discovering there was a change. As you say there could always be another secret, but I had just taken what he said at face value 

[thejopen27]

21 hours ago, Gigalemesh said:

I'll give way to your superior knowledge on how it played out, I was just relaying the stuff I've read since discovering there was a change. As you say there could always be another secret, but I had just taken what he said at face value 

You're right about what Brandon said. I just don't think that Brandon needed to change it if he didn't want Kaladin to kill Szeth. It doesn't even read like Szeth forcing Kaladin to kill him, it reads like Szeth intentionally missing a block so that a testing slash by Kaladin kills him instead. In Kaladin's POV Kaladin had a counter planned after Szeth blocked it, but Szetth didn't block it. 

[Gigalemesh]

8 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

You're right about what Brandon said. I just don't think that Brandon needed to change it if he didn't want Kaladin to kill Szeth. It doesn't even read like Szeth forcing Kaladin to kill him, it reads like Szeth intentionally missing a block so that a testing slash by Kaladin kills him instead. In Kaladin's POV Kaladin had a counter planned after Szeth blocked it, but Szetth didn't block it. 

Ah I see what you're saying, it is strange then that he wanted to change it. I was definitely thinking there was a bigger difference. It does make it seem like there was another reason, though on another thread there was a post from Peter saying that everything that happened in the original was still possible, though possible doesn't necessarily mean probable, so it could be Brandon thought it was a bit of a stretch that Nale could have reached Szeth in time as you suggested.

[Calderis]

5 hours ago, Gigalemesh said:

Ah I see what you're saying, it is strange then that he wanted to change it. I was definitely thinking there was a bigger difference. It does make it seem like there was another reason, though on another thread there was a post from Peter saying that everything that happened in the original was still possible, though possible doesn't necessarily mean probable, so it could be Brandon thought it was a bit of a stretch that Nale could have reached Szeth in time as you suggested.

What Peter said, was that both versions are still canon. It's not just possible, they both happened. 

Brandon has said that going forward, if someone has only read one version, the text will not contradict that. So if someone read the original version, and never knew about the change, there will be nothing in the text to make them question what they read. 

Which is fine by me, because I vastly prefer the first ending. The change makes Kaladin inhumanly forgiving. What person, in mid combat can suddenly decide that a strike that they expect to be block wasn't going to be, and so they should alter the course of their strike as it wouldn't be fair? Or right? Or whatever. That's not the way combat works. Szeth had been a massive threat, and a sudden internal change of heart on his part does nothing to change that. Kaladin may have noticed and questioned after the fact why Szeth didn't block, but actually diverting the strike? Kaladin is a soldier. An opening is an opening. 

I dislike the change, and am glad I have the original version. 

[Gigalemesh]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

What Peter said, was that both versions are still canon. It's not just possible, they both happened. 

Brandon has said that going forward, if someone has only read one version, the text will not contradict that. So if someone read the original version, and never knew about the change, there will be nothing in the text to make them question what they read. 

Which is fine by me, because I vastly prefer the first ending. The change makes Kaladin inhumanly forgiving. What person, in mid combat can suddenly decide that a strike that they expect to be block wasn't going to be, and so they should alter the course of their strike as it wouldn't be fair? Or right? Or whatever. That's not the way combat works. Szeth had been a massive threat, and a sudden internal change of heart on his part does nothing to change that. Kaladin may have noticed and questioned after the fact why Szeth didn't block, but actually diverting the strike? Kaladin is a soldier. An opening is an opening. 

I dislike the change, and am glad I have the original version. 

Well both still work, but two different versions of the same event surely can't both be canon?Did he use that exact wording somewhere? What I recall is him saying that everything that happened in the original was still canon as possible to happen, not canon that it did happen. Though you are of course correct that either version of events can be accepted going forward without confusion.

I respect that you feel that way though I disagree with you, though I suspect originally reading different versions makes us partial to prefer those versions. I think you are misinterpreting what happened, and kind of aggressively so as you don't like the revision. It reads very naturally if you don't know that there was a change, something strange happened in a strange combat, and Kaladin shifted his attack. He didn't expect that blow to go through so it threw him off when the flow of combat was broken, and he wasn't deciding to spare Szeth forever, he just had a gut reaction and acted on it, which I don't think is out of character, and if he hadn't been diving for the honourblade afterwards he may well have delivered a finishing blow afterwards.

So yeah I prefer the revision and I'm happy to accept it going forward, especially as I think Brandon must have felt it was rather important to change it, and I don't think that it was ridiculous. But to each their own

[thejopen27]

11 hours ago, Calderis said:

What Peter said, was that both versions are still canon. It's not just possible, they both happened. 

Brandon has said that going forward, if someone has only read one version, the text will not contradict that. So if someone read the original version, and never knew about the change, there will be nothing in the text to make them question what they read. 

Which is fine by me, because I vastly prefer the first ending. The change makes Kaladin inhumanly forgiving. What person, in mid combat can suddenly decide that a strike that they expect to be block wasn't going to be, and so they should alter the course of their strike as it wouldn't be fair? Or right? Or whatever. That's not the way combat works. Szeth had been a massive threat, and a sudden internal change of heart on his part does nothing to change that. Kaladin may have noticed and questioned after the fact why Szeth didn't block, but actually diverting the strike? Kaladin is a soldier. An opening is an opening. 

I dislike the change, and am glad I have the original version. 

Well you shouldn't kill someone who has given themselves up. I don't believe it was possible for Kaladin to react in time, but I would feel bad about attacking someone who has left themselves open intentionally. 

[Mulk]

15 hours ago, thejopen27 said:

Well you shouldn't kill someone who has given themselves up. I don't believe it was possible for Kaladin to react in time, but I would feel bad about attacking someone who has left themselves open intentionally. 

I think most of us would agree with you in a perfect world, but as the original went, it wasn't possible to tell Szeth had given himself up until he failed not only to block but to even try to block Sylblade.  Like, Kaladin's thrust was just an attempt to take the offensive and make Szeth react to him.

There's no point or reason to feel bad as he's 1) been trying to kill you; 2) been trying to kill your chosen leader; 3) succeeded in killing some of your friends not to mention a whole slew of world leaders; and 4) babbled insanely while doing it all.  There is no reason for Kaladin to expect him to quit fighting entirely and no reason for him to feel anything aside from relief when the end of the fight comes.

[thejopen27]

On 10/24/2017 at 10:27 AM, Mulk said:

I think most of us would agree with you in a perfect world, but as the original went, it wasn't possible to tell Szeth had given himself up until he failed not only to block but to even try to block Sylblade.  Like, Kaladin's thrust was just an attempt to take the offensive and make Szeth react to him.

There's no point or reason to feel bad as he's 1) been trying to kill you; 2) been trying to kill your chosen leader; 3) succeeded in killing some of your friends not to mention a whole slew of world leaders; and 4) babbled insanely while doing it all.  There is no reason for Kaladin to expect him to quit fighting entirely and no reason for him to feel anything aside from relief when the end of the fight comes.

I agree with you. I agree Kaladin couldn't have known. I guess my argument was that if he had realized, he wouldn't have struck. If Szeth dropped his weapon, and begged Kaladin to kill him, he wouldn't do it. I'm also saying I think  that Brandon didn't need to change the scene to get his point across. However, I think it works better dramatically for Szeth to disconnect from the bond with the blade and fall back into the storm to fall to his death. It also makes more sense that way for Nale to get there in time to revive him.