[OB] Yellow Spren

[Mulk]

30 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

Syl knew enough of the Cryptics to know they were distasteful, but not evil. I trust her, in this, to know the voidspren from the good.

That's my thought as well.

It fits that what is evil or wrong or at least in opposition is not always so in appearance or attitude. The frightening thing about Lucifer from the Bible is that he can appear as an angel of light if he wishes.  This is, in the Middle Earth mythos, how Sauron got both the Elves and the Men of Numenor to welcome him.  Humans have a hard time attributing false motive to those we consider comely or beautiful, so often times those who intend harm need only put on a good face to fool people.  It may be part of how this voidspren is allaying any fears of the parshmen she is leading and directing - doing so in a comely and mostly non-threatening form.

[CodeMnke]

Just a couple of thoughts.

 

there is a lot of speculation about possible a bond between this "voidspren" and a Parshman... while possible given the level of intelligence I would have to assume they had been bonded much longer. (assuming they follow the same rules) If that were the case my top candidate would be venelli(sp?) and/or some of her scholars. Not saying I agree but IF that were the case........ I have wondered how she knew so much to be able to learn how to transform into storm form and Eshoni commented that the form didn't seem to have changed her.

 

This particular spren however also brings to mind the Dalinar vision where they were chasing a "corrupted spren" and it brought an "escort" (see any similarities?) that created a thunderclast

Edited October 17, 2017 by CodeMnke
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[Subvisual Haze]

Did anyone else notice that the same conversation that Syl identifies that yellow-spren as a Voidspren she also messes up the spren's gender?  From Chapter 17:

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“Syl?” he begged as she returned. “Is something wrong with the bond? Please, I didn’t—”

“It’s not that,” she said, speaking in a furious whisper. “I think parshmen might be able to see me. Some, at least. And that other spren is still here too. A higher spren, like me.”

“Where?” Kaladin asked, twisting.

“He’s invisible to you,” Syl said, becoming a group of leaves and blowing around him. “I think I’ve fooled him into thinking I’m just a windspren.”

Quote

She landed on his shoulder, becoming the image of a young woman in her whimsical skirt. “He’s gone ahead for a little bit,” she said. “And the parshmen aren’t looking.”

“The spren is guiding them,” Kaladin said under his breath. “Syl, this spren must be…”

“From him,” she whispered, wrapping her arms around herself and growing small—actively shrinking to about two-thirds her normal size. “Voidspren.”

This is despite the Spren already being described as having a "shrill voice" in the previous Kaladin chapter.  In the following chapter we have Sah directly referring to the yellow spren as a "she":

Quote

“That yellow spren isn’t any better,” Sah muttered. “Hurry up. Keep moving. She tells us we’re free, then with the very next breath berates us for not obeying quickly enough.”

So the yellow spren had a high pitched voice originally and appears as a female to both the Parshmen and Kaladin, yet Syl still thought it was male?  I don't trust Syl's conclusion that this is definitely a voidspren if she couldn't even identify its gender properly.  I think she jumped to conclusions about a strange higher spren that she couldn't identify.

I don't think it's a voidspren.  Exactly what it is, I'm not sure though.  Probably not a KR spren, or I'd be very disappointed in Syl.  Perhaps a very old Adonalsium spren?  But not one of the same "power level" as Stormfather?  That would explain the spren's interest in the Parshmen, along with its joke about being "a tad older than one month". 

It appearing as a woman with Shin-like eyes is even more confusing though.  We know the Shin worship the "stone" of Roshar, so perhaps she's an old Adonalsium spren personifying the land itself.  Who she is acting as a messenger for though is another question entirely.  Nightwatcher?

[The One Who Connects]

2 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Syl identifies that yellow-spren as a Voidspren she also messes up the spren's gender?

I'll throw out the possibility that Syl saw a different Spren. It's unlikely, but still possible.

3 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

It appearing as a woman with Shin-like eyes is even more confusing though. 

Glad this confused someone else. This bothered me nearly as much as Tezim's "Final Storm" comment.

[Justin]

Didn't Syl specifically say that parshem cannot have a Nahel bond, when she and Kaladin where talking about the morality of killing a bunch or parshmen (either at the beginning of WoR or the end of Wok). He said something along the lines of "what if there was a parshman bonded to his own honorspren who saw me killing his companions" and Syl responds "Parshmen can't bond with spren".

If Syl was not misinformed, this probably rules out any normal-spren and Eshoani Nahel bond. 

The yellow spren did not seem corrupted, or hatefull and historically voidspren have been red and lightning bolty. I would rule that Syl might be wrong about what type of spren it was, but it seems like a mini peice of honor would be able to tell the difference between another little piece of Honor, and a little piece of Honor's sworn enemy.

[Mason Wheeler]

My reaction to this interaction with her and Kaladin was that she seems so much like Syl in so many different ways, that I wonder if her proper classification would be "dishonorspren?"

[Subvisual Haze]

7 minutes ago, Justin said:

Didn't Syl specifically say that parshem cannot have a Nahel bond, when she and Kaladin where talking about the morality of killing a bunch or parshmen (either at the beginning of WoR or the end of Wok). He said something along the lines of "what if there was a parshman bonded to his own honorspren who saw me killing his companions" and Syl responds "Parshmen can't bond with spren".

If Syl was not misinformed, this probably rules out any normal-spren and Eshoani Nahel bond. 

The yellow spren did not seem corrupted, or hatefull and historically voidspren have been red and lightning bolty. I would rule that Syl might be wrong about what type of spren it was, but it seems like a mini peice of honor would be able to tell the difference between another little piece of Honor, and a little piece of Honor's sworn enemy.

Nope, Syl says Listeners can't become Surgebinders, which I think will be an important distinction.  As Jasnah notes in WOR, being a Knight Radiant was about more than just being a surgebinder, it was an entire way of life and ethos. 

I do think it is possible for a higher spren to choose to bond with a Listener, knowing however that the bond will not yield powerful magic like a human-spren nahel bond.  I actually predict that this is how Eshonai's story will play out.  The first Listener Knight Radiant, even if not a surgebinder.

[Harbour]

I feel like this new Yellow Spren will stay with us at least till the end of the OB. Maybe she is actually a Stonewarden spren and will form the second Nahel bound with Kaladin for him to live by two different orders. Windrunner oaths to protect humankind, Stonewarden oaths to protect Parshendi, thus keep the balance and peace between two races?

[Yata]

I believe the Shin-like traits the Yellow Spren has is simply linked to her Stone-related appareance (so a mechac like the HonorSpren-WindSpren) and the amount of consideration the Shin place into the Stone. They simply have more weight into plasming "StoneSpren"

[treblkickd]

11 hours ago, Justin said:

Didn't Syl specifically say that parshem cannot have a Nahel bond, when she and Kaladin where talking about the morality of killing a bunch or parshmen (either at the beginning of WoR or the end of Wok). He said something along the lines of "what if there was a parshman bonded to his own honorspren who saw me killing his companions" and Syl responds "Parshmen can't bond with spren".

If Syl was not misinformed, this probably rules out any normal-spren and Eshoani Nahel bond. 

The yellow spren did not seem corrupted, or hatefull and historically voidspren have been red and lightning bolty. I would rule that Syl might be wrong about what type of spren it was, but it seems like a mini peice of honor would be able to tell the difference between another little piece of Honor, and a little piece of Honor's sworn enemy.

I think it's becoming clear that we cannot consider Syl as an absolute source of knowledge. She knows and remembers some things, but even some of what she remembers could easily be incorrect if it was based on misinformation or misunderstanding. As an example, Syl states outright that Listeners cannot becoming surgebinders (WoR Chapter 44, in conversation w/ Kaladin), which lines up perfectly what what Brandon has implied is an in-world misconception (and one that I think we all are coming to agree is likely dead wrong).

The Shin-like appearance of the yellow spren makes sense in the context of her being very old, as the Shin are likely the oldest human population on Roshar (based on their language having Dawnchant origins, which is only true of the Listener, Shin, and Horneater languages). 

[bo.montier]

12 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Did anyone else notice that the same conversation that Syl identifies that yellow-spren as a Voidspren she also messes up the spren's gender?  From Chapter 17:

This is despite the Spren already being described as having a "shrill voice" in the previous Kaladin chapter.  In the following chapter we have Sah directly referring to the yellow spren as a "she":

So the yellow spren had a high pitched voice originally and appears as a female to both the Parshmen and Kaladin, yet Syl still thought it was male?  I don't trust Syl's conclusion that this is definitely a voidspren if she couldn't even identify its gender properly.  I think she jumped to conclusions about a strange higher spren that she couldn't identify.

I don't think it's a voidspren.  Exactly what it is, I'm not sure though.  Probably not a KR spren, or I'd be very disappointed in Syl.  Perhaps a very old Adonalsium spren?  But not one of the same "power level" as Stormfather?  That would explain the spren's interest in the Parshmen, along with its joke about being "a tad older than one month". 

It appearing as a woman with Shin-like eyes is even more confusing though.  We know the Shin worship the "stone" of Roshar, so perhaps she's an old Adonalsium spren personifying the land itself.  Who she is acting as a messenger for though is another question entirely.  Nightwatcher?

Interesting, I wonder if it's just a mistake in the Tor text. How many times is it referred to as He, just the one, or more? 
If it's not a mistake in the text we're left with: There are 2 spren, or Syl was mistaken. Both have lots of possibilities.
My inclination is still to trust Syl.

The fact that the yellow spren appears to Kaladin fully intelligent means, to me, she isn't a KR spren coming into the physical realm, since that seems to remove most of the spren's cognitive abilities. I think she's been in the physical realm or has a protection of some sort...getting into how investiture works and whatnot is not my area of expertise, but I think her intelligence is indicative of her source.

[bo.montier]

10 minutes ago, treblkickd said:

I think it's becoming clear that we cannot consider Syl as an absolute source of knowledge. She knows and remembers some things, but even some of what she remembers could easily be incorrect if it was based on misinformation or misunderstanding. As an example, Syl states outright that Listeners cannot becoming surgebinders (WoR Chapter 44, in conversation w/ Kaladin), which lines up perfectly what what Brandon has implied is an in-world misconception (and one that I think we all are coming to agree is likely dead wrong).

The Shin-like appearance of the yellow spren makes sense in the context of her being very old, as the Shin are likely the oldest human population on Roshar (based on their language having Dawnchant origins, which is only true of the Listener, Shin, and Horneater languages). 

IT seems more to me like Syl is saying that listeners cannot form nahel bonds, not that there is no spren bond. Trusting Syl's intuition about the spren is entirely different from thinking she is an absolute source of knowledge. She seems to see to the core of things and understand the essence, even if the details are off. 

[treblkickd]

8 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

IT seems more to me like Syl is saying that listeners cannot form nahel bonds, not that there is no spren bond. Trusting Syl's intuition about the spren is entirely different from thinking she is an absolute source of knowledge. She seems to see to the core of things and understand the essence, even if the details are off. 

 

I agree that's what she's saying, but I think the consensus is that it is not true that Listeners cannot for nahel bonds, i.e., the preponderance of the evidence supports the idea that Listeners can form nahel bonds. On this topic there are a few relevant comments from Brandon:

Q:  Is Eshonai going to be a Radiant?
A:  In the past, parshmen/Parshendi were not allowed to become KR.  However, what I said might imply that that could change.  But no promises.

and 

Q:  Is it possible for a Parshendi to become a KR?
A:  In the past, no. Let's say this, in-world everybody would tell you no.

These two WoBs clearly and strongly imply (in one case, explicitly) that there is no fundamental barrier to Parshendi forming Nahel bonds, but rather that this is something that has never happened in the past. It's not clear who/what was doing the "allowing" in reference to "In the past, Parshendi were not allowed to become KR", but clearly it's a possibility that's on the table, which means that it absolutely is a thing that *can happen*. 

As this relates to Syl as a source of knowledge, my point is that she is no more reliable that any other in-world character, which is to say that she can be misinformed, or believe a thing to be true based on faulty logic/reasoning. Such faulty reasoning would include the fallacy of assuming that something that has never happened before cannot happen. 

[bo.montier]

1 minute ago, treblkickd said:

 

I agree that's what she's saying, but I think the consensus is that it is not true that Listeners cannot for nahel bonds, i.e., the preponderance of the evidence supports the idea that Listeners can form nahel bonds. On this topic there are a few relevant comments from Brandon:

Q:  Is Eshonai going to be a Radiant?
A:  In the past, parshmen/Parshendi were not allowed to become KR.  However, what I said might imply that that could change.  But no promises.

and 

Q:  Is it possible for a Parshendi to become a KR?
A:  In the past, no. Let's say this, in-world everybody would tell you no.

These two WoBs clearly and strongly imply (in one case, explicitly) that there is no fundamental barrier to Parshendi forming Nahel bonds, but rather that this is something that has never happened in the past. It's not clear who/what was doing the "allowing" in reference to "In the past, Parshendi were not allowed to become KR", but clearly it's a possibility that's on the table, which means that it absolutely is a thing that *can happen*. 

As this relates to Syl as a source of knowledge, my point is that she is no more reliable that any other in-world character, which is to say that she can be misinformed, or believe a thing to be true based on faulty logic/reasoning. Such faulty reasoning would include the fallacy of assuming that something that has never happened before cannot happen. 

Thanks for those WoBs, I was unaware of them (new to the forum and all this research :-))

My take, currently, on Syl, is that facts are sometimes incorrect, but her intuitions are generally reliable. She is an Honorspren, after all, I would expect her to know what a voidspren feels like. I would actually expect ALL the honor/cultivation spren to be able to feel the wrongness in voidspren, but that may not be the case, in which case my implicit trust for Syl in this area may be misplaced.

[Guest]

Syl is literally shrinking, when she tells Kaladin, that it is a voidspren. She always does that when Odium is involved (like the name Odium itself makes her hiss). She must know... Remember that she is a part of Honor, who was splintered by Odium.

I don't see why she shouldn't have knowledge about odiumspren...

Also, how is that spren manifesting in the Physical Realm without a bond? And why is it intelligent? This is no normal spren.

Edited October 18, 2017 by SLNC

[StormingTexan]

@Subvisual Haze Great catch on the gender.

That makes me wonder. Could the spren have altered their appearance for the conversation with Kaladin? To seem less hostile and threatening. She did try to recruit him after all. She chose the appearance of a Shin which is known around Roshar as being a docile peace loving people. 

[bo.montier]

Just now, StormingTexan said:

@Subvisual Haze Great catch on the gender.

That makes me wonder. Could the spren have altered their appearance for the conversation with Kaladin? To seem less hostile and threatening. She did try to recruit him after all. She chose the appearance of a Shin which is known around Roshar as being a docile peace loving people. 

Syl can do it, but it doesn't look like Pattern can. I don't think we know enough here, personally.

[Subvisual Haze]

This is going to be a book about PREJUDICE.  Judge the poor spren by its actions, not by the label that is hastily slapped on it.

[NoiseSpren]

The using of stone pillars for walking

→STONE

STONE + ODIUM SPREN = THUNDERCAST SPREN

logical at all...

So we know more about the thundercast on book cover.

Edited October 18, 2017 by NoiseSpren
just for fun

[Starla]

I think another indication that it's a voidspren is that he/she gave warning that the everstorm was coming. Just as Syl gave warning that the highstorm was coming. Syl can probably sense the storms because she's connected to Honor and the Stormfather, which means the voidspren is probably connected to the originator and/or spren of the everstorm.

[shawnhargreaves]

11 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

This is going to be a book about PREJUDICE.  Judge the poor spren by its actions, not by the label that is hastily slapped on it.

Well put.  In just two sentences, you explained an idea that I've been struggling to fit into multiple paragraphs!

I could not agree more.

[Subvisual Haze]

On 10/18/2017 at 8:37 PM, shawnhargreaves said:

Well put.  In just two sentences, you explained an idea that I've been struggling to fit into multiple paragraphs!

I could not agree more.

Thanks

Not to keep beating a dead horse, but I'm honestly a little shocked how many posters on this board seem to cast moral judgements spren-types and parshmen, so here's a quote from Brandon that I think reinforces the point:

Quote

INTERVIEW: Apr 8th, 2016
OdysseyCon 2016
BLIGHTSONG
Can Honor spren, or any other type of Knight Radiant spren, be evil?
BRANDON SANDERSON
Yes, because I don't call the shards good and evil. There are no good and evil shards in my opinion, like and so, what evil and what's not evil can totally have spren of honor that you would consider evil. They have free will, but they are much more limited. It is very hard, or impossible, for them to lie but they can be cruel.

If an honorspren could be cruel, then it stands to reason that a voidspren need not interpret itself as purely evil (not that the yellow-spren is necessarily even a voidspren). 

[Blacksmithki]

10 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Thanks

Not to keep beating a dead horse, but I'm honestly a little shocked how many posters on this board seem to cast moral judgements spren-types and parshmen, so here's a quote from Brandon that I think reinforces the point:

If an honorspren could be cruel, then it stands to reason that a voidspren need not interpret itself as purely evil (not that the yellow-spren is necessarily even a voidspren). 

A righteous anger style voidspren and a highspren that demands it's KR follow terrible and cruel laws and enforce them, I'm reminded of Wax being asked how he would have treated the mistborn 1 crew.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Thanks

Not to keep beating a dead horse, but I'm honestly a little shocked how many posters on this board seem to cast moral judgements spren-types and parshmen, so here's a quote from Brandon that I think reinforces the point:

If an honorspren could be cruel, then it stands to reason that a voidspren need not interpret itself as purely evil (not that the yellow-spren is necessarily even a voidspren). 

Of course not. Morality/good vs. evil almost always is a matter of perspective. What I might perceive as immoral, could be completely moral for you. I kinda think that is obvious.

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, SLNC said:

I kinda think that is obvious.

You'd think...