[OB] Mraize and his Bird

[Toaster Retribution]

3 minutes ago, Argent said:

My argument is not "it's a regular bird". I've seen a surprising number of people grow absolutely convinced, no doubts, that Mraize has an Aviar. Which, given how little we know, strikes me as wishful thinking. It's less the claim and more the certainty with which it is made that bothers me. 

Okay, sorry for misunderstanding your intent :-)

Edited October 17, 2017 by Toaster Retribution

[Dahak]

5 hours ago, Salkara said:

It's also really, really unlikely that one person would have an aether, a branch from Yolen, kandra spikes, a lock of Idrian royal hair, and sand from dayside Taldain (am I forgetting anything?). BUT if anyone could have all of those, they could probably have an Aviar from First of the Sun.

Not sure about Aether given its dubious current canonisity but he looked ot have a sample of the really soft stone they use for making Forgery Stamps and some of the Tears of Edgli.

[Zmann966]

Neither in support or attack of the Aviar theory:

I'd like to point out that there's a few cosmere powers have some form of investiture-sense, and showing up on First of the Sun with such could be enough to instantly realize the value of Aviar—no need to venture further or go find information the old-fashioned way.

[The One Who Connects]

2 hours ago, Dahak said:

Not sure about Aether given its dubious current canonisity but he looked ot have a sample of the really soft stone they use for making Forgery Stamps and some of the Tears of Edgli.

Aether the story is not exactly canon, but we have a WoP that Aethers themselves might be canon when Brandon writes Dragonsteel.

Quote

8

Botanica

Have you given up on the gemstone, now that it is dead?^[4]

What is this "gemstone"? Is it the black sphere that Gavilar gave Szeth? Or is it the Aether Sliver that appears in The Liar of Partinel?

Peter

It’s either the Aether, or the topaz that he used to wear. This is one of those things that will depend on how Brandon eventually plans to write the Dragonsteel series.

[Steeldancer]

WAIT A SECOND-

if Mraize starts dancing right now... we could have our first confirmed appearance of the Chicken Dance in the Cosmere! A major find!

I swear I'm shameless on Oathbringer Tuesdays in distributing witty comments. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Steeldancer

[StormingTexan]

I went back through the first two books and searched "chicken" in WoR there is this part in one of Shallan's flashback scene.

Quote

 

The thing only had a little bit of shell— on the nose and mouth— but the strangest part was its hair. It had bright green hair that covered its entire body.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (The Stormlight Archive, Book 2) (p. 514). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

And then in Oathbringer

Quote

A chicken. It was one of the stranger varieties, pure green and sleek, 

So I think it is somewhat safe to say the bird is native to Roshar. Not that this rules out it being an Aviar Mraize could have just taken one of the worms which honestly makes more sense. 

Edit dendrophobe pointed out may omission in Oathbringer making it not sound like the same bird. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by StormingTexan

[Michael Portz]

14 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

So I think it is somewhat safe to say the bird is native to Roshar. Not that this rules out it being an Aviar Mraize could have just taken one of the worms which honestly makes more sense. 

Hmm .. I always took it for granted, that only the Listeners and the greater and lesser Shells were native to Roshar. And that everything remotely "human" immigrated (from Tranquiline Halls), and that all of the "stranger" beings, like abovementioned chickens, horses etc., came with them.

[StormingTexan]

1 minute ago, Michael Portz said:

Hmm .. I always took it for granted, that only the Listeners and the greater and lesser Shells were native to Roshar. And that everything remotely "human" immigrated (from Tranquiline Halls), and that all of the "stranger" beings, like abovementioned chickens, horses etc., came with them.

Sorry bad choice of words. I meant the bird was acquired from Roshar not brought from First of The Sun. 

[Michael Portz]

Just now, StormingTexan said:

Sorry bad choice of words. I meant the bird was acquired from Roshar not brought from First of The Sun. 

And sorry back, I didnt bother to check the context of your posting!!! 

[Pagerunner]

So, if the bird is an Aviar, what ability might it have? We've picked up on the way it responds to Shallan, but Aviar can be quite intelligent, so I don't think there's too much behind it getting agitated when she starts yelling. I'm focused more on what utility it provides to Mraize, who is going undercover with a very distinctive face. I wonder if the bird provides some sort of disguise or memory effect, that would replace a more typical disguise? That would be why he has it now, but he hasn't before: because it's a specialized tool, one that he hadn't needed up to that point.

[StormingTexan]

22 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

So, if the bird is an Aviar, what ability might it have? We've picked up on the way it responds to Shallan, but Aviar can be quite intelligent, so I don't think there's too much behind it getting agitated when she starts yelling. I'm focused more on what utility it provides to Mraize, who is going undercover with a very distinctive face. I wonder if the bird provides some sort of disguise or memory effect, that would replace a more typical disguise? That would be why he has it now, but he hasn't before: because it's a specialized tool, one that he hadn't needed up to that point.

I like the idea of the disguise except he obviously isn't using it at the time because Shallan recognizes him right away. It wouldn't make much sense for him to have the bird at the time if he is not actively using it to be undercover. It is an oddity in itself a man in Roshar walking around with a "chicken" on his shoulder and would bring attention to himself. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by StormingTexan

[ChazBolt]

Are we certain that Ialia can see the chicken? To her, Mraize is just another solider. Why would he have a chicken on him? Wouldnt she find that strange?

What if it is an Aviar and is disguising itself to not be seen, except by Shallan (either because shes a Ghostblood or because shes a Lightweaver?)

Edited October 18, 2017 by ChazBolt

[The Invested Beard]

2 minutes ago, ChazBolt said:

Are we certain that Ialia can see the chicken? To her, Mraize is just another solider. Why would he have a chicken on him? Wouldnt she find that strange?

What if it is an Aviar and is disguising itself to not be seen, except by Shallan (either because shes a Ghostblood or because shes a Lightweaver?)

INVISIBLE CHICKENS! The evil genius!

Edited October 18, 2017 by The Invested Beard

[BlackYeti]

I've been thinking about this a bit, and I don't think that the bird is an Aviar. I think the idea that only Shallan can see the bird is a little ridiculous, and I think the idea that Mraize would bring something as obvious as a bird, even an Aviar, with him while spying on Ialai to be absurd. No soldier would ever get away with carrying around a bird on their shoulder.

I think the most simple explanation for this is actually that the bird belongs, not to Mraize, but to Ialai. She just didn't want to have to look after it herself, so she foisted it onto someone else, and that person happened to be Mraize.

[dendrophobe]

5 hours ago, StormingTexan said:

I went back through the first two books and searched "chicken" in WoR there is this part in one of Shallan's flashback scene.

And then in Oathbringer

So I think it is somewhat safe to say the bird is native to Roshar. Not that this rules out it being an Aviar Mraize could have just taken one of the worms which honestly makes more sense. 

You left out the most important part of the quote in Oathbringer.

Quote

A chicken. It was one of the stranger varieties, pure green and sleek, with a wicked beak. It looked much more like a predator than the bumbling things she’d seen sold in cages at markets.

So it is in fact different than the ones Shallan has seen before. The only real similarity is the color.

And as for the idea that a soldier couldn't get away with carrying around a bird, remember, this is Sadeas' army that we're talking about. They purposefully stay away from order so that they won't be mistaken for Kholin soldiers. A bird wouldn't fly (no pun intended...) in the Kholin army, but this is a whole different animal.

[StormingTexan]

8 minutes ago, dendrophobe said:

You left out the most important part of the quote in Oathbringer.

So it is in fact different than the ones Shallan has seen before. The only real similarity is the color.

And as for the idea that a soldier couldn't get away with carrying around a bird, remember, this is Sadeas' army that we're talking about. They purposefully stay away from order so that they won't be mistaken for Kholin soldiers. A bird wouldn't fly (no pun intended...) in the Kholin army, but this is a whole different animal.

That is a good point. 

[ParadoxicalZen]

Let's look at this logically (and with some minor spoilers for Cosmere references and a little higher than that for Sixth of the Dusk)

Here is what we know of Mraize/Roshar from a purely SA perspective

• Mraize is a prominent member, possibly primary/secondary leader of the aloof, mysterious Ghostbloods, who as of these latest chapters have revealed to be scheming for power - a LOT of power - perhaps both Investiture-related as well as influence but I believe they want this power for a particular goal.
• Iyatil is his (current) master, but we don't quite know what she's training him in.
• He likes to collect objects like trophies, which are clearly important to him in some fashion.
• Chicken-Birds aren't common Rosharan Wildlife (to my recollection at least), and if i had to hazard a guess, are most likely to be found in Shinovar if anywhere...probably. However, this bird could merely be a pet of his and just had it with him for reasons at this meeting.
• Ghostbloods seem to use espionage primarily for information gathering, with a little stabby-stabby if the situation calls for that, so I would expect Mraize to be somewhat adept at disguising himself if he needs to do the job himself or needs to meet with important figures, hence why he's wearing a Sadeas uniform. Also, given this newly discovered directive, I would also expect them to use any edge they could to get what they want.

Now for some minor Cosmere spoilers + a little supposition and mild-medium Sixth of the Dusk

• We know that Iyatil is of SoScad descent but was born in presumably Silverlight, so she isn't a stranger to Worldhopping, or possibly navigating the Cognitive Realm. Between this and the extra-planetary source connections to Mraize's trophies, we could speculate that it is highly possible/probable that Mraize has Worldhopped before, and that some of the high-ranking Ghostblood membership may be of extra-planetary descent.
• It could be that Mraize is simply in charge of the plan/project/Rosharan sting of the operation
• Given what we know of the wildlife on Patji, it's possible that they may also have some influence in the Cognitive Realm, hence why it may be possible to get close even via that way as they could be able to sense you as you near the Perpendicularity on the CR side. It could be possible for someone to go through, grab some of the fruit with worms/worms themselves, grab a Aviar nest then jump back but we've yet to have a viewpoint of someone actually transitioning through a Perpendicularity yet.
• It is highly possible the Silverlight scouts weren't sure of what to expect, misjudged the surrounding environs and went exploring, only to meet their fate.
• I would argue for the above to actually happen though, the Ghostbloods would do exponential recon before even making a move.
• As an alternative, it's highly likely that they may have found a trapper who passed through the eye and recruited/blackmailed/bribed them.

And some SotD spoilers

• Whenever the birds are seen using the powers, they're located on Six's shoulders, exactly like as shown with Mraize. Although, if you have a pet bird, it would either be on your arm or shoulder...but if it was well trained, I'm sure could have easily placed it on the table or something.
• Given that most the abilities and traits shown from wildlife on Patji are Cognitive in nature, it would be safe to assume that those are the only kind (although this could be wrong)

Seeing as how Ialai isn't as much of wreck as I would have expected her to be (we see she has been crying, but given how dangerous they both were I kind of expected her to frothing at the teeth with rage, anguish and grief) so if the bird is what we believe it to be, perhaps it has a Soothing/Rioting effect.

 

[Dahak]

On 18/10/2017 at 0:52 AM, The One Who Connects said:

Aether the story is not exactly canon, but we have a WoP that Aethers themselves might be canon when Brandon writes Dragonsteel.

i.e. Aethers are of dubious canonicity since Brandon doesn't yet know if he's going to include them.

Unlike Soulstone, which is in Emperor's soul and matches the description given.

[BlackYeti]

3 hours ago, Dahak said:

i.e. Aethers are of dubious canonicity since Brandon doesn't yet know if he's going to include them.

Unlike Soulstone, which is in Emperor's soul and matches the description given.

There's actually a more definitive WoP here:

Quote

There is a reason that Aethers are already canon. I don't think anyone has figured that out yet. But the backstory Brandon gives them could change in the future, or could end up never materializing.

Aether's are canon, we just don't know where or how they're going to appear, or even if they already have.

[Calderis]

And soulstone does not match the description of the proposed Aether in Mraize's case. 

Soulstone is white with red flecks. The item in Mraize's case is a solid rose quartz color. 

It is not soulstone. 

[JoyBlu]

Another option would be an inhabitant from the Drominad  system could have found the perpendicularity by him/herself and left the planet with several birds -- or even the grubs the birds feed on. There could be a world hopper from Drominad.  It says that world hoppers that have gone to the planet have not returned -- but nothing about people leaving the planet on their own.

And another idea I had (I've been thinking about this way too much) is I wonder if the birds could accidentally enter the perpendicularity on their own and there could be a bird catcher waiting for them on the other side that catches them and then puts them to use. That way a world hopper wouldn't have to actually enter the world.

Edited November 8, 2017 by JoyBlu
avoid double post

[Gixian]

Well if his desk collection is any indication he also had a suspicious vial of white sand up there with all his other oddities...

[+ElephantEarwax]

49 minutes ago, Gixian said:

Well if his desk collection is any indication he also had a suspicious vial of white sand up there with all his other oddities...

He has a lot of off world items, 

Spoiler

He had a kandra spike, and an aether at least.

 

[The Invested Beard]

Brandon is Mraize confirmed:

Questioner

If you had a pet animal that you could communicate with (just like dæmons in the trilogy His Dark Materials by Phillip Pullman) which animal would you choose?

Brandon Sanderson

Can I cheat and make an animal that doesn't exist? Because if so, I'd pick a dragon. Because then I'd have a cool animal to talk to AND I'd be the only person around with a DRAGON.

If it has to be an animal that's real--a kind of spirit dragon--I would pick some kind of intelligent bird. A parrot or a raven. Something that can fly, do things I cannot, and look totally awesome sitting on my shoulder and glaring at people.

[Naerin]

To those disputing that the bird on Mraize's shoulder is likely an Aviar, I get the argument about feasibility, but it is definitely Brandon's style to do something like this: an easter egg for cosmere-aware readers that could be played off as a strange quirk by others (so as not to distract from the story). But come on. A mysterious bird, perched on the shoulder of a guy who has been shown to collect Invested items from different worlds. If this is not an Aviar, then it is Brandon deliberately trolling us. To my knowledge there have been zero other references to people on Roshar (or in any cosmere books that I can remember - please correct me if I'm wrong) possessing pet birds, and Shallan specifically makes note of its weirdness. The only other example in any cosmere work of people with birds perched on their shoulders (again, correct me if I'm forgetting something) is the Aviar. 

The better question is what does it do. Again working off of the assumption that this is an easter egg for cosmere readers and not an important plot element, I will venture a guess and say that it is one of the basic "concealers." My guess is that the Aviar who prevent the hunters from sensing minds can also work to keep others from sensing other forms of Investiture, helping Mraize hide from other cosmere-aware characters who might have ways of sensing or tracking Investiture. That is just wild speculation but I think it fits with the general tone of these cross-world easter eggs.