[OB] The Dustbringer

[Asrael]

Am I the only one who thinks she might just have the hots for Dalinar? Virtual King of Alethkar? Leader of the new Knights Radiant? The legendary Blackthorn? Perhaps the most powerful man in the world?

At least some of Brandon's characters have to be stereotypes some of the time 

[Ansalem]

5 minutes ago, Asrael said:

Am I the only one who thinks she might just have the hots for Dalinar? Virtual King of Alethkar? Leader of the new Knights Radiant? The legendary Blackthorn? Perhaps the most powerful man in the world?

At least some of Brandon's characters have to be stereotypes some of the time 

Nope. Literally right after posting I thought about saying "for all you know, she's smiling at Dalinar cause she thinks he's handsome". But I didn't. Now I did, though, so yay?

Edited October 19, 2017 by Ansalem

[Blacksmithki]

14 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

Nope. Literally right after posting I thought about saying "for all you know, she's smiling at Dalinar cause she thinks he's handsome". But I didn't. Now I did, though, so yay?

In my mind, she's just smiling because her Spren suggested what you just said.

[Ansalem]

17 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

In my mind, she's just smiling because her Spren suggested what you just said.

Well, it would follow the pattern. 

[Calderis]

The Taravangian theory, at least to my knowledge, is mine. He will bind the Nightwatcher and be a rival Bondsmith, and still be the well intentioned villain. 

Him being in Urithiru now, and super close to the Nightwatcher only adds to it in my mind. 

The Diagram is very Cultivation based in my mind. And the Nightwatcher is her spren. It just fits, as long as you aren't hung up on the Envisigers interpretation of the First Oath that Teft gave us. 

And let's be honest here. Without some major developments to Taravangian's power base in the form of magic, whether it be surgebinding, voidbinding, or fabrials, he just won't be able to compete with what's going on in the world. The moral implications of surgebinders working for the Diagram is one of the most interesting paths forward. 

Obviously not all orders will be able to take that path, and the fact that some entire orders would eschew his lead should be a signal to T that he's wrong, but he's entrenched and won't see it. 

Dustbringers I can definitely see though. Brave and obedient. Following the Orders their given. Elsecallers, following the same path of logic that converted so many people to support Taravangian in the first place. Skybreakers, because as king, Taravangian's word is law in many places. 

Windrunners and Edgedancers? No way. But of the Orders we've seen so far, those are the only two that seem to be definitely off limits. Lightweavers can go either way, and I don't know enough about Truthwatchers to guess. 

I see the story getting very very interesting soon. 

[Varion]

2 hours ago, Ansalem said:

If Taravangian's connection is what makes her suspicious, it's only to the reader who has meta knowledge of the story and nothing at all to do with what we've actually seen from her, and it can't be cause for her not being included in his secret society because then no one would be. A little odd if the head of a secret society won't let you in because you're associated with them.

So the only suspiciousness we can see is irrelevant to the discussion and would apply to literally anyone who arrived with Taravangian (except Jasnah I guess).

But everyone's saying she's acting suspicious. What specifically about her behavior is suspicious? The only thing there is is her smiling. People smile. Or is it the way she was looking at a Dustbringer mural? I don't get it.

In my opinion, people are reading what isn't written.

I actually agree with you Ansalem, even if I didn't express it well in my post. Malata taken on her own is not doing anything overly suspicious. My point was more meta. Sanderson was very deliberately trying to make the reader suspicious of Malata, using her association with Taravangian to prejudice our expectations. Then the ambiguous smile, Dalinar's reaction, and the little reminder that Dustbringers had a bad reputation, all confirmed those expectations. Which is, as I said in my first post, itself very suspicious. 

In this way, people are actually reading exactly what's written for them. Is this misdirection from Sanderson? We really don't know yet. It's hard to imagine a scenario where we (and I mean we as readers cheering for Dalinar) shouldn't be suspicious of Malata, at least initially.

Although, we also need to acknowledge that Dalinar, who does not have any of those contextual clues, who is generally a good judge of character, and who tends to err on the side of being over-trusting, was clearly suspicious. He didn't like the way she smiled, and he immediately began to wonder whether she may in fact have an Honorblade in disguise. So she was obviously acting suspiciously enough to put Dalinar on guard. 

As for the Taravangian Bondsmith theory, I can see the different dots there, but the connections between them are still pretty tenuous. I'll keep reading with interest. 

 

[Salkara]

I believe the most obvious answer is that Malata is both a Releaser and a member of the Diagram. We've seen true spren be attracted to humans who embody the ideals of the spren's Order. Kaladin is a protector and a leader; he attracted an honorspren. Shallan is creative; she attracted a liespren. Dalinar is trying to unite Roshar; he's becoming a Bondsmith.

We know via WoB (link, question 3) the Dustbringers would be happy with Adolin's murder of Sadeas. If we assume they're like Adolin's action it because they're type of people who would pull the lever in the trolley problem (and I see no other way to reconcile approval of murder with the First Oath), we can assume they would approve of the Diagram's actions.

So, in my mind, while an honorspren as bonding with Kaladin, a Cryptic was rebonding with Shallan, and Dalinar was wooing the Stormfather, there was a Releaser spren* wooing a Diagramist. I assume Mr T saw this as a possibility, was on the lookout for a budding Dustbringer in his ranks, and that's how he found Malata.

* - Side note, I really hope the Releaser spren are called BOOMspren.

[Varion]

5 hours ago, Salkara said:

So, in my mind, while an honorspren as bonding with Kaladin, a Cryptic was rebonding with Shallan, and Dalinar was wooing the Stormfather, there was a Releaser spren* wooing a Diagramist. I assume Mr T saw this as a possibility, was on the lookout for a budding Dustbringer in his ranks, and that's how he found Malata.

That sequence of events makes a lot of sense. Much cleaner than Taravangian finding a Releaser and then convincing her to join him. 

I wonder, has anyone found any hint of Malata in WoK or WoR? Is there a woman in the background of any scene with Taravangian that could fit her description? Sanderson often uses the same phrases to describe people over time, so there may be a "middle-aged lighteyed woman", dressed "after a Southern style, with the top buttons of the blouse undone", and hair "short in a boyish cut" with "gloves on both hands". 

[Ansalem]

8 hours ago, Varion said:

I actually agree with you Ansalem, even if I didn't express it well in my post. Malata taken on her own is not doing anything overly suspicious. My point was more meta. Sanderson was very deliberately trying to make the reader suspicious of Malata, using her association with Taravangian to prejudice our expectations. Then the ambiguous smile, Dalinar's reaction, and the little reminder that Dustbringers had a bad reputation, all confirmed those expectations. Which is, as I said in my first post, itself very suspicious. 

In this way, people are actually reading exactly what's written for them. Is this misdirection from Sanderson? We really don't know yet. It's hard to imagine a scenario where we (and I mean we as readers cheering for Dalinar) shouldn't be suspicious of Malata, at least initially.

Although, we also need to acknowledge that Dalinar, who does not have any of those contextual clues, who is generally a good judge of character, and who tends to err on the side of being over-trusting, was clearly suspicious. He didn't like the way she smiled, and he immediately began to wonder whether she may in fact have an Honorblade in disguise. So she was obviously acting suspiciously enough to put Dalinar on guard. 

As for the Taravangian Bondsmith theory, I can see the different dots there, but the connections between them are still pretty tenuous. I'll keep reading with interest. 

 

I'm not disagreeing with your points. Of course we as readers have lots of reason to be suspicious of her. But I clearly didn't phrase my question properly.

People were saying that she is acting so suspiciously that they would never include her in their secret organization. So my question is actually what reason does Taravangian have to be suspicious of her? What about her behavior would keep him from including her in the Diagram? Why would he expect her to give them away just because she's smiley?

[Varion]

6 hours ago, Ansalem said:

People were saying that she is acting so suspiciously that they would never include her in their secret organization. So my question is actually what reason does Taravangian have to be suspicious of her? What about her behavior would keep him from including her in the Diagram? Why would he expect her to give them away just because she's smiley?

Absolutely agree. Taravangian has no reason to mistrust her. I suspect the secret society comments were throw away lines, but certainly, we should be careful drawing any conclusions about Malata based on what we've seen so far. 

Having said that, while Taravangian doesn't have any reason to distrust her, he may have reason to be unhappy with her performance in front of Dalinar -- not because she gave anything away, but because the end result was that Dalinar felt suspicious. Assuming his plan was to stay in Dalinar's confidence, I'm sure he would be upset to know that Dalinar left their first meeting feeling uneasy about Malata. But once again, I'm making assumptions about Taravangian's motives and strategy. Well played Sanderson, I say.

[Aleksiel]

7 hours ago, Ansalem said:

People were saying that she is acting so suspiciously that they would never include her in their secret organization. So my question is actually what reason does Taravangian have to be suspicious of her? What about her behavior would keep him from including her in the Diagram? Why would he expect her to give them away just because she's smiley?

Why include her in the Diagram at all? Why not simply manipulate her? You do not want members that arise suspicion less someone decides to investigate and ruin your plans. Just like a good assassin won't stand out, a semi decent member of a secret organization shouldn't make people who just met her wonder what she's hiding. So in my opinion the fact she creates a feeling of distrust towards her and her motives excludes her from being one of Vargo's initiated diagramists.

I think her behavior and the suspicion from other characters will end up a red herring.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Aleksiel

[Ansalem]

Just now, Aleksiel said:

Why include her in the Diagram at all? Why not simply manipulate her? You do not want members that arise suspicion less someone decides to investigate and ruin your plans. Just like a good assassin won't stand out, a semi decent member of a secret organization should make people who just met her wonder what she's hiding. So in my opinion the fact she creates a feeling of distrust towards her and her motives excludes her from being one of Vargo's initiated diagramists.

I think her behavior and the suspicion from other characters will end up a red herring.

So far as we know, she only made one person slightly suspicious. Everyone else will very likely see it the way Navani did, "if she's a Radiant, she can't be bad right?"

Also, I would say Brandon disagrees with your assessment about assassins and secret organization members standing out. Szeth is super obvious. Iyatil would be the most suspicious person in any room.

Compared to Iyatil, what's so suspicious about Malata that Iyatil makes sense for a secret organization but Malata doesn't? One of them is a little smiley, the other one has a freaking mask fused to their face.

What I'm saying is, if I saw Malata, I wouldn't be the least bit suspicious of her behavior.

[Aleksiel]

Just now, Ansalem said:

So far as we know, she only made one person slightly suspicious. Everyone else will very likely see it the way Navani did, "if she's a Radiant, she can't be bad right?"

Also, I would say Brandon disagrees with your assessment about assassins and secret organization members standing out. Szeth is super obvious. Iyatil would be the most suspicious person in any room.

Compared to Iyatil, what's so suspicious about Malata that Iyatil makes sense for a secret organization but Malata doesn't? One of them is a little smiley, the other one has a freaking mask fused to their face.

What I'm saying is, if I saw Malata, I wouldn't be the least bit suspicious of her behavior.

Szeth wasn't a member of a secret organization and those murders were intended to be flashy. Iyalati has managed quite well to stay out of the spotlight in the war camps, she blends when she needs to. I stand by my point - Malata doesn't act like a person one would want in their secret organization.

What reason does Vargo have to include Malata in the Diagram? Why even bother to tell her? If she was a diagramist, it would have been an excellent opportunity to gain Dalinar's trust to infiltrate his close circle and deflect him in the wrong direction when the time comes without Vargo's direct involvement, who claims to just have met her in another country, but that chance is now gone and she would need to do some damage control to gain Dalinar's trust. She blew the chance to get on Dalinar's good side from the start, a diagramist or a semi decent member of secret society would have had a strategy in mind to achieve the best possible result, not just wander around smiling like an idiot.

As I said, I do not expect Malata to be anything more than too pleased with her new powers or something similar. An outline way to throw us in the wrong direction, a red herring.

[Ansalem]

1 minute ago, Aleksiel said:

Szeth wasn't a member of a secret organization and those murders were intended to be flashy. Iyalati has managed quite well to stay out of the spotlight in the war camps, she blends when she needs to. I stand by my point - Malata doesn't act like a person one would want in their secret organization.

What reason does Vargo have to include Malata in the Diagram? Why even bother to tell her? If she was a diagramist, it would have been an excellent opportunity to gain Dalinar's trust to infiltrate his close circle and deflect him in the wrong direction when the time comes without Vargo's direct involvement, who claims to just have met her in another country, but that chance is now gone and she would need to do some damage control to gain Dalinar's trust. She blew the chance to get on Dalinar's good side from the start, a diagramist or a semi decent member of secret society would have had a strategy in mind to achieve the best possible result, not just wander around smiling like an idiot.

As I said, I do not expect Malata to be anything more than too pleased with her new powers or something similar. An outline way to throw us in the wrong direction, a red herring.

I never said she should be involved in the Diagram. I'm saying your reason that she shouldn't be doesn't make sense. She isn't remotely as suspicious as you say she is, not to a person living in their world. To us she is but that's because we know what's going on in the world and we know the private thoughts of the characters. So far only Dalinar has noticed anything of concern and as far as I can tell he doesn't really have much reason. But even if he did, Dalinar is a special case and we haven't seen anyone else's opinion of Malata at all.

[Aleksiel]

16 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

I never said she should be involved in the Diagram. I'm saying your reason that she shouldn't be doesn't make sense. She isn't remotely as suspicious as you say she is, not to a person living in their world. To us she is but that's because we know what's going on in the world and we know the private thoughts of the characters. So far only Dalinar has noticed anything of concern and as far as I can tell he doesn't really have much reason. But even if he did, Dalinar is a special case and we haven't seen anyone else's opinion of Malata at all.

Not being a member of a secret organization is the given status, you need a reason to initiate someone in a carefully guarded secret. 'If's she Radiant, she can't be bad, right?' isn't exactly flattering image of someone. It's not just that she acts suspiciously, it's also that she lacks a strategy or even a decent approach in her initial interaction and first impression is very important, she wasted opportunity instead preferring to walk around smiling, which achieved nothing of value. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Aleksiel

[Toaster Retribution]

After reading the posts here I'm kind of being convinced about that Malata has her own agenda after all, but it is probably sonething private related just to her. Being interested in Dalinar because of his power sounds reasonable.

I do buy that she is a bad Diagram member, because of how suspicious she is. Most likely, she is out for herself.

[Morsk]

I think she's just a carefree person, and spooks Dalinar because he's so dour and formal.

[Blacksmithki]

I have no idea why in the world everyone sees her as suspicious, if you were meeting with the head of a construction project or something, and the head worker was in the room, not getting in your way, staying against the wall, in practical clothing and work gloves, smiling, that's not suspicious, that's called someone being cheery or happy. You don't assume they are hiding something because they are smiling, you assume they are having a good day or were told a joke or something.

To summarize the Distbringer so far, she has stayed in the back while two really important people talked while smiling FOR ANY NUMBER OF REASONS. Only ONE person seems to find her suspicious and he made that choice based not off some choice she made that made her appear suspicious but based on pretty much pure instinct.

Boyond this, what could she have done? Not smiled? How in the world does that make a difference? This entire discussion is about how someone someone isn't a member of a group because SHE SMILES.

[bo.montier]

5 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

Why include her in the Diagram at all? Why not simply manipulate her? You do not want members that arise suspicion less someone decides to investigate and ruin your plans. Just like a good assassin won't stand out, a semi decent member of a secret organization shouldn't make people who just met her wonder what she's hiding. So in my opinion the fact she creates a feeling of distrust towards her and her motives excludes her from being one of Vargo's initiated diagramists.

I think her behavior and the suspicion from other characters will end up a red herring.

My feeling is that dustbringers are all going to be a little off-putting, personality wise.

[Calderis]

Are.. Are we seriously debating the motivations of a character who we haven't seen speak, and who we barely have a physical description of?

I mean, for now, I believe she's a part of the Diagram, and this has nothing to do with her. It's all about how we've seen the Diagram work in the past with Graves and his cross purposes to Taravangian. The Diagramists are not a perfectly cohesive group. 

Malata herself? She's done nothing so far. Trying to say she can or can't be a Diagramist, or surgebinder, or anything else... Is a bit early. 

Edited October 20, 2017 by Calderis

[maxal]

Something popped into my mind which isn't really relevant to the discussion as to whether or not Malata is a real-Dustbringer (I see no reasons to doubt she is), but I'd like to point out our first Dustbringer certainly isn't a soldier, nor a fighter. It goes without saying there used to be so many theories for a certain character to join this order for those reasons as "bravery" had to be battle related. 

Malata just set the mold. We may have to rethink what it means to be a Dustbringer. 

[FollowYourMuse]

48 minutes ago, maxal said:

 

Malata just set the mold. We may have to rethink what it means to be a Dustbringer. 

Agreed, my thoughts while reading, and the commentary on her smile, made me think she was just laughing to herself, like she was a lower darkeyed veden female, and now she is wandering a mythical city with Kings. The two gloves and description, for unknown reasons, made me wonder if before becoming a knight if she were a prostitute.

[maxal]

24 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

Agreed, my thoughts while reading, and the commentary on her smile, made me think she was just laughing to herself, like she was a lower darkeyed veden female, and now she is wandering a mythical city with Kings. The two gloves and description, for unknown reasons, made me wonder if before becoming a knight if she were a prostitute.

Oh how I'd loved if you were right. This is such a delightful plot twist for an order everyone thought implied was exclusively made of badass warriors, great fighters because "bravery" usually calls for it. How amazing if bravery ends up being taken to its more broader sense: one can be brave without being a soldier and a soldier may be brave on the battlefield, but not elsewhere. 

[Calderis]

6 minutes ago, maxal said:

one can be brave without being a soldier and a soldier may be brave on the battlefield, but not elsewhere

I don't understand this line. How is a soldiers bravery limited to the battlefield? 

Bravery is not limited to combat. The bravery of non-combatants shouldn't lessen the bravery of those fighting. Both are valid. 

[maxal]

Just now, Calderis said:

I don't understand this line. How is a soldiers bravery limited to the battlefield? 

Bravery is not limited to combat. The bravery of non-combatants shouldn't lessen the bravery of those fighting. Both are valid. 

Bravery is not limited to the battlefield, I agree, but many readers have interpreted as such. I was referring to other discussions on the subject of Dustbringers which praised bravery in the context of warfare far more than bravery elsewhere, to the point of disregarding when a given individual failed to be brave when it did not involve stabbing people. 

There is also the fact most readers thought Dustbringers would be those massive killers onto the battlefield, always ready to kill.