[OB] The Dustbringer

[WhiteLeeopard]

The woman is likely a Dustbringer. The questions are

• Is she a trustworthy Radiant?
• Is she part of the Diagram?
• Is she just a woman full of herself due to her new position?
• Is she just reeling with the shock of "coming out"?
• Does she belong to another secret society?
• Is she a Herald? (least likely in my opinion, but never know with those guys)

[The Technovore]

I only read the first page of comments, and this has probably already been covered, but I think the main reason she introduces herself as a "Dustbringer" and not "releaser" is because of the fact that she is not a Knight Radiant from before the Recreance. When Radiants were a fully organized group, they had their internal politics and viewpoints, and their vices and "preferred titles."

 

This is thousands of years later. I doubt there's even a single person on Roshar that's spoken all the Oaths. The politics between orders simply don't exist yet. She's likely been told by her spren that she's a "Releaser", but everyone else calls them "Dustbringers". Assuming this woman isn't thousands of years old and one of the originals, she probably wouldn't have a problem using the term. It's what people call the Order. To call it anything else would be confusing and pointless.

 

This is, of course, assuming that she actually is Knight Radiant. 

[Wreith]

4 minutes ago, The Technovore said:

I only read the first page of comments, and this has probably already been covered, but I think the main reason she introduces herself as a "Dustbringer" and not "releaser" is because of the fact that she is not a Knight Radiant from before the Recreance. When Radiants were a fully organized group, they had their internal politics and viewpoints, and their vices and "preferred titles."

 

This is thousands of years later. I doubt there's even a single person on Roshar that's spoken all the Oaths. The politics between orders simply don't exist yet. She's likely been told by her spren that she's a "Releaser", but everyone else calls them "Dustbringers". Assuming this woman isn't thousands of years old and one of the originals, she probably wouldn't have a problem using the term. It's what people call the Order. To call it anything else would be confusing and pointless.

 

This is, of course, assuming that she actually is Knight Radiant. 

This has indeed been touched on. She doesn't introducer herself as a Dustbringer. Dalinar is the one who tells us her order and he says Releaser.

 

On 10/17/2017 at 0:19 PM, KidWayne said:

Here's everything we have on our new alleged Radiant from Chapter 24:

Quote

Adrotagia touched Taravangian’s arm and nodded toward someone standing with the Kharbranthian guards: a middle-aged lighteyed woman wearing a skirt and blouse, after a Southern style, with the top buttons of the blouse undone. Her hair was short in a boyish cut, and she wore gloves on both hands.

The strange woman stretched her right hand over her head, and a Shardblade appeared in it. She rested it with the flat side against her shoulder.

“Ah yes,” Taravangian said. “Introductions! Blackthorn, this is the newest Knight Radiant. Malata of Jah Keved.”

Quote

Now the woman, Malata, leaned idly against the side of the balcony. She hadn’t spoken much during their tour of the first three levels, and when she looked at Dalinar, she always seemed to have a hint of a smile on her lips.

Quote

The new Radiant, Malata, lounged in a seat near the wall-mounted sigil of the Dustbringers, staring at it.

Quote

In the room, Teshav gestured to the various pillars, each representing an order of Knight Radiant. Dalinar and Navani waited in the doorway, separated from the rest.

“What of the Surgebinder?” Navani whispered.

“A Releaser. Dustbringer, though they don’t like the term. She claims her spren told her that.” He rubbed his chin. “I don’t like how she smiles.”

“If she’s truly a Radiant,” Navani said, “can she be anything but trustworthy? Would the spren pick someone who would act against the best interests of the orders?”

Another question he didn’t know the answer to. He’d need to see if he could determine whether her Shardblade was only that, or if it might be another Honorblade in disguise.

From all this we can see that Malata never introduced herself as a Dustbringer. I imagine that she probably introduced herself as a Releaser, then when Dalinar looked at her funny, she gave an exasperated sigh and explained that her order is commonly known as Dustbringers. Then when recognition dawned on his face, she probably explained that her spren told her that they don't like being called Dustbringers.

Edited October 18, 2017 by Wreith

[kari-no-sugata]

34 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

The woman is likely a Dustbringer. The questions are

• Is she a trustworthy Radiant?
• Is she part of the Diagram?
• Is she just a woman full of herself due to her new position?
• Is she just reeling with the shock of "coming out"?
• Does she belong to another secret society?
• Is she a Herald? (least likely in my opinion, but never know with those guys)

I think all Radiants are somewhat "broken" and we shouldn't expect to see any "happy and well adjusted" Radiants. I think most of the Radiants we know a fair bit about would not consider them to be best suited to the job of saving the world or the like. Putting it another way, if some Radiant appears to be confident then it's probably an act or front of some kind. While I think that assuming that someone is trustworthy because they are a Radiant is foolish that doesn't mean we should distrust them either.

I think it's entirely possible that Taravangian knew about her before he came to Jah Keved. I dunno how much he knows about finding Radiants etc but he seems to know some things. It would be logical to prepare forces in advance and the first stop was always Jah Keved. I also think he would likely be quite careful about who he trusts. It's entirely possible that there's already multiple Radiants working with Taravangian.

If we knew just how common Radiants were currently and how easy it would be to find one if you knew how we could make a better guess as to whether this person is a lucky find after coming to Jah Keved and not someone who Taravangian particularly trusts, or the opposite.

Flipping the question around: I doubt this woman would have any particular reason to trust Dalinar and co. If she is genuinely from Jah Keved and only met any Diagramists recently then she might trust Taravangian because others do but might not have much more trust than that.

[WhiteLeeopard]

33 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think all Radiants are somewhat "broken" and we shouldn't expect to see any "happy and well adjusted" Radiants. I think most of the Radiants we know a fair bit about would not consider them to be best suited to the job of saving the world or the like. Putting it another way, if some Radiant appears to be confident then it's probably an act or front of some kind. While I think that assuming that someone is trustworthy because they are a Radiant is foolish that doesn't mean we should distrust them either.

I think it's entirely possible that Taravangian knew about her before he came to Jah Keved. I dunno how much he knows about finding Radiants etc but he seems to know some things. It would be logical to prepare forces in advance and the first stop was always Jah Keved. I also think he would likely be quite careful about who he trusts. It's entirely possible that there's already multiple Radiants working with Taravangian.

If we knew just how common Radiants were currently and how easy it would be to find one if you knew how we could make a better guess as to whether this person is a lucky find after coming to Jah Keved and not someone who Taravangian particularly trusts, or the opposite.

Flipping the question around: I doubt this woman would have any particular reason to trust Dalinar and co. If she is genuinely from Jah Keved and only met any Diagramists recently then she might trust Taravangian because others do but might not have much more trust than that.

I'm still not certain she even knows the Diagram exists. She may be an oblivious radiant T snatched up to earn Dalinar's trust. 

Also...considering snapping is coming in the wide Cosmere, keep in mind mistborn

Spoiler

All the original crew had snapped at some point and were by definition broken. While they were hardly the most common bunch you would find, some were quite "nice" in every sense of the word.

I think our ideas of broken are a bit extreme due to Kaladin and Shallan been the ones we've seen the most of, whom I suspect would be considered a bit extreme even by radiant standards.

[kari-no-sugata]

4 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I'm still not certain she even knows the Diagram exists. She may be an oblivious radiant T snatched up to earn Dalinar's trust. 

Also...considering snapping is coming in the wide Cosmere, keep in mind mistborn

  Hide contents

All the original crew had snapped at some point and were by definition broken. While they were hardly the most common bunch you would find, some were quite "nice" in every sense of the word.

I think our ideas of broken are a bit extreme due to Kaladin and Shallan been the ones we've seen the most of, whom I suspect would be considered a bit extreme even by radiant standards.

Yeah, I forgot to add that almost certainly the average Radiant would not be like our main protagonists, who are probably extreme examples. Anyway, I would not consider Radiants to be "average" people and they're much more likely to have some odd quirks in their personality than others - it's not just the "breaking" part, they need to be able to attract a spren too.

It's possible that our little Dustbringer knows Taravangian (or his people) quite well and doesn't know about the Diagram. But, it seems like a good idea to induct people into the Diagram religion and gain trust (or belief) that way. If they've been able to find enough Radiants they can probably "weed out" the less trustworthy ones after putting them through various tests.

 

On a minor note: I would imagine Taravangian knows Shallan is there in Urithiru. He almost certainly has some spies in the place, so it would be simple enough to find out. I wonder if that affected his planning at all since Shallan is from Jah Keved, technically making him her king. I wouldn't be surprised if Shallan wants to visit her homeland as well, even if briefly. So if Taravangian is going to spring an attack (probably), a good opportunity would if/when Shallan goes over to visit since that makes the old "divide and conquer" bit easier. Or if/when Dalinar visits. Anyway, at least, we can probably expect Malata and Shallan to talk at some point (possibly as soon as the next chapter) which should give some insight into her.

[Sparkrunner]

My guess, purely based off of the way that the diagrammists talk about her, is that she is another diagrammist.

[Aleksiel]

She acts so suspiciously no secret society would want her as a member. 

[The Invested Beard]

*Malata whispers loudly to Taravangian* PSSSSSSST! HEY DON'T WORRY I WON'T TELL THEM ABOUT THE SECRET DIAGRAM YOU MADE THAT MAY OR MAY NOT CALL FOR THIS GUY'S ASSASSINATION."

[Elanmorin]

9 hours ago, Wreith said:

Rysn's interlude in WoK tells us Szeth left Shinovar 7 year prior. The new chapters (24) for Oathbringer say that MrT changed 5 years ago.

Well, that shuts down my theory quite thoroughly.

[Elanmorin]

1 hour ago, Aleksiel said:

She acts so suspiciously no secret society would want her as a member. 

Seems like Dalinar finds her somewhat... Abrasive. 

[Hero-of-Pages]

35 minutes ago, Elanmorin said:

Seems like Dalinar finds her somewhat... Abrasive. 

Boooo. Take an anger upvote

[Nymeros]

4 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think all Radiants are somewhat "broken" and we shouldn't expect to see any "happy and well adjusted" Radiants

Hrmmm, Ym seemed like a pretty cool guy though.

3 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

I think our ideas of broken are a bit extreme due to Kaladin and Shallan been the ones we've seen the most of, whom I suspect would be considered a bit extreme even by radiant standards.

Definitely. Kal killed Syl and Shallan suppressed her memories of her Radiancy for years.....I doubt that is common for full Radiants.

48 minutes ago, Elanmorin said:

Seems like Dalinar finds her somewhat... Abrasive. 

My word....do you actually take pride in what you have done?

[frozndevl]

38 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Hrmmm, Ym seemed like a pretty cool guy though.

I forget, what did Ym do as a younger man to warrant Nale killing him?

[Nymeros]

34 minutes ago, frozndevl said:

I forget, what did Ym do as a younger man to warrant Nale killing him?

I think he agreed to poison some guy because of a debt? Im too lazy to go look it up.

[Watchcry]

A characteristic of Dustbringers is they are obedient but from what we have so far, it doesn't state to whom. She could be an obedient Radiant to the diagram. 

[Calderis]

If I remember correctly, Ym was born privileged and squandered his inheritance. He did jobs for unscrupulous people because of debts, and one of those jobs was delivering a bottle of wine. 

He believed that the labeling of the bottle carried a message, but in truth the wine was poisoned. 

He had no idea that he was killing someone but Nale still held him responsible, as the laws of the land would apparently. 

All things considered, with the life Ym had led, I'm not surprised that he was broken enough to bond.

Quote

A characteristic of Dustbringers is they are obedient but from what we have so far, it doesn't state to whom. She could be an obedient Radiant to the diagram. 

@Watchcry this is precisely what I believe. Brave and obedient. A perfect servant of the Diagram. 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Calderis

[Elanmorin]

4 hours ago, Nymeros said:

My word....do you actually take pride in what you have done?

Immensely. 

I am sustained by pun-induced groans and eye-rolls.

[Shanderton]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

 

@Watchcry this is precisely what I believe. Brave and obedient. A perfect servant of the Diagram. 

My only issue with this is the first ideal which all Radiants share, in particular 'Journey before Destination'. I believe it even says in the book "killing one innocent isn't worth saving 5", although that may be Kaladin's interpretation. 

I just can't see how radiant ideals can align with the Diagram. Maybe I've missed something though! 

Edited October 19, 2017 by Shanderton

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, Shanderton said:

My only issue with this is the first ideal which all Radiants share, in particular 'Journey before Destination'. I believe it even says in the book "killing one innocent isn't worth saving 5", although that may be Kaladin's interpretation. 

I just can't see how radiant ideals can align with the Diagram. Maybe I've missed something though! 

Rather than go on my normal tangent, I'll just link my thread about it. 

This isn't a problem. 

 

[TheDarkDesperado]

Since we still don't have much to go on I'm gonna go with my gut and guess she is loyal to T (he does have great PR) likely due to them taking advantage of the fact that as a young KR she's probably somewhat emotionally vulnerable so it would be child's play to get her to help them to Urithiru. I also think a reason for her not to be fully inducted into the DIagram is that they may not want any Surgebinders too close after the near miss with Szeth (and that was when they had his Oathstone)  so they'd have to be damnation damnation sure before bringing a dangerous element too far in. Plus as previously stated, she is so suspicious I would never let her into my secret organization. 

[Ansalem]

4 hours ago, Shanderton said:

My only issue with this is the first ideal which all Radiants share, in particular 'Journey before Destination'. I believe it even says in the book "killing one innocent isn't worth saving 5", although that may be Kaladin's interpretation. 

I just can't see how radiant ideals can align with the Diagram. Maybe I've missed something though! 

I would say the first ideal is wide open to interpretation and is probably not actually binding like the others. Besides, Shallan has murdered people in cold blood. That would seem to go against the first ideal, but not only did it not cost her her Radiancy, acknowledging the fact counts as one of her oaths.

There is also reason to believe Taravangian might become one of the Bondsmiths himself.

And could someone tell me why everyone's saying Malata is super suspicious? What's so suspicious about smiling? How is being smiley too suspicious for a secret society to ever let her in yet Iyatil is perfectly reasonable? Nothing suspicious about her at all...

[Mulk]

5 hours ago, Elanmorin said:

Immensely. 

I am sustained by pun-induced groans and eye-rolls.

A fellow pun AND WoT fan.  Excellent...

[Varion]

34 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

There is also reason to believe Taravangian might become one of the Bondsmiths himself.

That's an interesting idea, but what reasons do you have for it? Have I missed a discussion of this elsewhere on the boards? Taravangian may have the same higher goal as Dalinar (to save Roshar from Odium) but his methods are much different. Dalinar is focused on uniting people, and upholding oaths -- which fits with what little we know about the Bondsmiths. Taravangian, by contrast, is a chess player, manipulating pieces on the board to setup long term strategies. He only unites people when it suits his needs, and being held by oaths would only restrict his options. I'm not sure what Order would suit Taravangian more, but I don't see him as a Bondsmith. 

55 minutes ago, Ansalem said:

And could someone tell me why everyone's saying Malata is super suspicious? What's so suspicious about smiling? 

She's suspicious for a few reasons:

1: She's with Taravangian. We know his plans, and they are not friendly;
2: Her creepy smile suggests she knows something Dalinar doesn't, and given that she's with Taravangian, the obvious conclusion we are to make as readers is that she knows about the diagram, or at the very least, is in on some plan to kill/overthrow Dalinar;
3: We can also safely assume that Taravangian, the meticulous genius, wouldn't deliver a radiant to Dalinar unless he was 100% certain that she was under his control, and safe to play a central part of his plans;
4: Even though Dalinar trusts Taravangian, he's still suspicious of Malata;
5: Dustbringers historically had a suspicious reputation.

Therefore, Malata is suspicious. Very obviously suspicious. I mean, Sanderson is hitting us over the head with how suspicious she is. Which is, you have to admit, a bit suspicious. 

 

[Ansalem]

46 minutes ago, Varion said:

That's an interesting idea, but what reasons do you have for it? Have I missed a discussion of this elsewhere on the boards? Taravangian may have the same higher goal as Dalinar (to save Roshar from Odium) but his methods are much different. Dalinar is focused on uniting people, and upholding oaths -- which fits with what little we know about the Bondsmiths. Taravangian, by contrast, is a chess player, manipulating pieces on the board to setup long term strategies. He only unites people when it suits his needs, and being held by oaths would only restrict his options. I'm not sure what Order would suit Taravangian more, but I don't see him as a Bondsmith. 

Well, it isn't my theory it's just one I've seen thrown around as a potential a lot. But there are a couple things. First, his goal isn't just to save Roshar from Odium, it's very specifically to unite Roshar ("you must become king of everything"). He's following Gavliar's mandate to "unite them", which we know Gavilar was having the visions from the Stormfather before Dalinar was. So his goal isn't just the same from the high view, it's exactly the same goal. He inherited it from Gavilar who is confirmed to have been on the path to becoming a Bondsmith. Second, the Bondsmith spren are unique. That is to say, they are all different from each other. The spren of the other orders are (as Syl put it) essentially the same individual, there's very little difference between one honorspren and another. But there is only one Stormfather. We know there are meant to be exactly 3 Bondsmiths so 3 Bondsmith spren, so it makes sense to assume their spren will have very different views from each other on what can count as uniting. There is some speculation that the Nightwatcher might be one of the Bondsmith spren (if for no other reason than she's the only other spren as powerful as the Stormfather that we know about so far), and Taravangian is pretty strongly tied to her. She's essentially the cause of the Diagram. She very well may have given him his curse/boon just so that he would create the Diagram in order to unite Roshar against the Desolation.

So if Taravangian is going to be a Radiant at all, it's almost certainly Bondsmith.

46 minutes ago, Varion said:

She's suspicious for a few reasons:

1: She's with Taravangian. We know his plans, and they are not friendly;
2: Her creepy smile suggests she knows something Dalinar doesn't, and given that she's with Taravangian, the obvious conclusion we are to make as readers is that she knows about the diagram, or at the very least, is in on some plan to kill/overthrow Dalinar;
3: We can also safely assume that Taravangian, the meticulous genius, wouldn't deliver a radiant to Dalinar unless he was 100% certain that she was under his control, and safe to play a central part of his plans;
4: Even though Dalinar trusts Taravangian, he's still suspicious of Malata;
5: Dustbringers historically had a suspicious reputation.

Therefore, Malata is suspicious. Very obviously suspicious. I mean, Sanderson is hitting us over the head with how suspicious she is. Which is, you have to admit, a bit suspicious. 

1. People are saying she's suspicious and therefore wouldn't be allowed into a secret society, and they are saying this in reference to the Diagram. As in, her being with Taravangian can't be why she's suspicious for any reason other than meta knowledge. This has nothing to do with her behavior and doesn't add any evidence that Taravangian wouldn't allow her to be in on the Diagram because she's, what, with him?

2. That's reading an awful lot into Dalinar saying he doesn't like how she smiles. Remember, this is from his point of view. He's the only one who's noted anything odd about her behavior and we've seen her extremely briefly. Take a step back away from Dalinar's mind and view the scenes again. She's just smiling and looking at a mural. Just because Dalinar doesn't like it doesn't make it creepy, doesn't mean she holds some secret knowledge or agenda, and it doesn't make her suspicious. Dalinar himself didn't say anything more than he doesn't like it, we don't even know why he doesn't like it. But I'm not arguing Dalinar doesn't find her suspicious, I'm saying I disagree with his reasoning.

3. Again, people are saying that she's suspicious and therefore can't be in on the Diagram. Taravangian can't be the one making her suspicious if her suspiciousness is cause for him not including her.

4. Think I covered most of this already. Dalinar's view is Dalinar's view. Why should it be the reader's view? It isn't mine. You just said yourself Dalinar isn't a terribly great judge of character. He trusts Taravangian, one of the least trustworthy people we know of. He can be wrong.

5. And Edgedancers were historically graceful and elegant. Then there's Lift. I judge a person based on that person alone. And literally the only things I know about Malata so far is that she smiles a lot and she claims to be a Dustbringer. I know nothing else about her. Also, Dalinar doesn't know that. Shallan might, but we haven't heard her opinion of Malata yet.

I will say that her being with Taravangian does obviously make her suspicious, but it's also beside the point. If Taravangian's connection is what makes her suspicious, it's only to the reader who has meta knowledge of the story and nothing at all to do with what we've actually seen from her, and it can't be cause for her not being included in his secret society because then no one would be. A little odd if the head of a secret society won't let you in because you're associated with them.

So the only suspiciousness we can see is irrelevant to the discussion and would apply to literally anyone who arrived with Taravangian (except Jasnah I guess).

But everyone's saying she's acting suspicious. What specifically about her behavior is suspicious? The only thing there is is her smiling. People smile. Or is it the way she was looking at a Dustbringer mural? I don't get it.

In my opinion, people are reading what isn't written.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Ansalem