Rosharan Perpendicularity

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

Rereading WoR and I read this:

Quote

(speaking of the lakes on top of the horneater peaks)

"Is not just water," Rock said. "Is water of life. It is connection to gods. If Unkalaki swim in it, sometimes they see place of gods."

...

"In it, you commune with gods, if you are lucky."

...

"On top, is water. Beneath, is not. Is something else. Water of life. The place of the gods. This thing is true. I have met god myself."

..

"I saw Lunu'anaki."

...

"Lunu'anaki," Rock said, "is god of travel and mischief. Very powerful god. He came from depths of peak ocean, from realm of gods."
"What did he look like?" Lopen asked, eyes wide.
"Like person," Rock said. "Maybe Alethi, though skin was lighter. Very angular face. Handsome, perhaps. With white hair."
Sigzil looked up rapidly. "White hair?"
"Yes," Rock said. "Not grey, like old man, but white–yet he is young man. He spoke with me on shore. Ha! Made mockery of my beard. Asked what year it was, by horneater calendar. Thought my name was funny. Very powerful god"
"Were you scared?" Lopen asked.
"No, of course not. Lunu'anaki cannot hurt man. Is forbidden by other gods. Everyone knows this."

 

Now, I can't be the first one to notice this, but I'm surprised this isn't mentioned all the time.

Things I got from it:
- Perpendicularity in the bottom of the Horneater peak lakes.
- Somehow perpendicularity isn't always there. Might have to do with some perpendicularity moving all the time....
- This might be connected to why Horneaters can see spren. I know it is thought to be because of connection to Parshendi blood, but unless we have a WoB on that, I'm thinking this might be it.
- Obviously, Lunu'anaki is Hoid. This would be the perpendicularity he used to enter Roshar. This is why Sigzil looked up rapidly at the description of white hair.
- This might give a hint as to how Hoid is skipping years. After all, he had to ask for what year it was, which is a stereotypical time-traveler move.

 

Got a couple of theories on this. The first one being that Honor's Perpendicularity (I think it is Honor's) is often mobile. What if that means that during a highstorm it can move from lake to lake. The bigger (or higher) the lake, the more likelihood the perpendicularity will settle there. This would explain it being at both the Horneater peaks and the Purelake. As well as Rock's "if you are lucky" comments. Or it could just be that one belongs to Cultivation, and another to Honor. In which case I'd say Purelake is Cultivation's, and Horneater peaks (jumping from peak to peak) is Honor's.

[Calderis]

23 minutes ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

This might be connected to why Horneaters can see spren. I know it is thought to be because of connection to Parshendi blood, but unless we have a WoB on that, I'm thinking this might be it.

https://www.goodreads.com/questions/109379-both-parshendi-and-horneaters-are-able-to

Quote

Mandi

Both Parshendi and Horneaters are able to see spren, ordinary humans can't. Is there a connection between these abilities, or do they come from completely different sources?

Brandon Sanderson

Horneaters are human/Parshendi hybrids. (There are several Roshar races that have Parshendi blood in them.)

In the context of the question, I think that answer is pretty straightforward. 

As to the rest of your post, I think time in the null space between worlds is expanded in a similar manner to the way that space is compressed. 

The perpendicularity is assumed to be Cultivation's at this point. But that's definitely what it is. 

The mobile perpendicularity actually that it isn't always a pool. The non-canon Jasnah chapter told us that jasnah needed a perpendicularity to exit Shadesmar, because she didn't have the stormlight to Elsecall. So when she exited in the open and met Hoid, she had to have used a perpendicularity, which means that unlike we'd believed up to that point they aren't always pools. 

Quote

Questioner

Is there any way it's possible that somebody could have gotten to the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial without the Well of Ascension?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

And can we know how?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, how many Shardpools would Scadrial have?

Questioner

Two, so the Pits of Hathsin would be so? That's what I theorized.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. So you've adopted the term "Shardpool". That was never really my term, but I've started using it. What happens with a Perpendicularity is large concentrations of Investiture, particularly purely attuned to one of the Shards, will create an access point. You've seen another one in--

Questioner

Yeah, yeah I know these.

Brandon Sanderson

You know which one I'm referencing?

Questioner

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

That you didn't see a Pool from?

Questioner

Oh wait--

Brandon Sanderson

Okay, he knows, so… We'll move on. *general outcry* Okay, fine. Umm, at the end of Words of Radiance.

Argent

There has to be one there because Jasnah has to leave somehow, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but Honor's Perpendicularity moves.

Questioner

Woah...so...Highstorm?

Brandon Sanderson

*makes non-committal noises*

Questioner 2

Kind of related to that, I don't know if this is a RAFO kind of question, but you call them Perpendicularities, are we going to see this sort of thing created? Could there be, like--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, Perpendicularities can be created. You'd need a lot of Investiture, right? You'd need a ton of Investiture. But, basically what Jasnah does is create a little mini Perpendicularity, right? And slips herself into the Cognitive Realm.

Questioner 2

So it's just a question of skill, not a question of--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. It's hard to pull off, but some of the powers are built to do it.

 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

Actually, been reading some more, and I have a theory for Honor's perpendicularity: Urithiru. Maps never peg down where its at, and you only go there using oathgates. What if thats because the city is constantly moving around? Thus it would make sense as Honor's perpendicularity.

[Yata]

2 hours ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Actually, been reading some more, and I have a theory for Honor's perpendicularity: Urithiru. Maps never peg down where its at, and you only go there using oathgates. What if thats because the city is constantly moving around? Thus it would make sense as Honor's perpendicularity.

Maps never point where the city was because you could get there mainly by Oathgate and therefore nobody could preciselly figure where the city is....But it's in a fixed spot, you may see it from WoR's ending, where Szeth knows the exact Urithuru's location and it's ready to reach it when he understood Dalinar goes there.

@Calderis I believe Jasnah Elsecalled back from Shadesmar, she had not Stormlight and therefore her first plan was to reach Honor's perpendicularity, but she could recovered a bit of Stormlight in her journey (maybe by the Spren)

Edited October 14, 2017 by Yata

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

6 hours ago, Yata said:

Maps never point where the city was because you could get there mainly by Oathgate and therefore nobody could preciselly figure where the city is....But it's in a fixed spot, you may see it from WoR's ending, where Szeth knows the exact Urithuru's location and it's ready to reach it when he understood Dalinar goes there.

That is assuming that he knew geographically. If it can move, then I wouldn't be surprised if the surge of gravitation also somehow allowed you to find it. But yea. It's a stretch. I still feel like Urithiru moves around, and Szeth just keeps track of its movement somehow.

[Yata]

I can't honestly say It is impossible but nothing point to a moving city.

Urithuru is an huge structure and still bigger if you count the Oathgates' platforms....the simple fact that something so huge simply goes around Roshar unseen is extremely unlikely.

Your point on Gravitation allows Szeth to detect Urithuru's location is quite ....a stretch, for example Kal didn't experience nothing strange with his Surge flying in Urithuru.

 

I could understand you like the mobile-Urithuru idea, but simply you Need too much "assuming this" to be' considerate a likely option

Edited October 15, 2017 by Yata

[theRoyalDingus]

Gotta agree. Someone in on around it would have noticed. But, so...

there's a perpendicularity in the bottom of the Horneater Peaks' Lakes (sometimes)? makes sense-ish.

Purelake? Makes sense.

Hoid forbidden to hurt people by "other gods?" wonder what this could be. Other worldhoppers? Seventeenth Shard? Spren? The Horneaters see spren as gods.

[Generalbacon74]

I don't think urituru moves or if it does it's every few years not constantly. Because if the city could move maybe it could be controlled and moved to some where the raideints want to go. And I think to explain better there would be oath bringer spoilers. But if the city could be moved it probably would take quite a bit of stormlight or shard powers maybe?

[theRoyalDingus]

Isn't that just called "oathgates?"

[Gigalemesh]

I don't think Urithiru moves personally. A few people mentioned the purelake having a shardpool/perpendicularity, is that a theory that has been presented elsewhere? Didn't see anything about it on the coppermind. Or is it just a suggestion here? 

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, Gigalemesh said:

I don't think Urithiru moves personally. A few people mentioned the purelake having a shardpool/perpendicularity, is that a theory that has been presented elsewhere? Didn't see anything about it on the coppermind. Or is it just a suggestion here? 

It's a theory based on the members of the Seventeenth Shard who are in the Purelake interlude looking for Hoid. The thought process is that they arrived there, as the "plague" in the Purelake is the common cold, and was brought by them, and has not to our knowledge left the pure lake. Presumably, neither have they. 

[Toaster Retribution]

On 15 oktober 2017 at 1:02 AM, Krypton Savant said:

Hoid forbidden to hurt people by "other gods?" wonder what this could be. Other worldhoppers? Seventeenth Shard? Spren? The Horneaters see spren as gods.

This is a very interesting point. My guess would be that the Shards have collectively done something to him to stop him from harming others.

[Gigalemesh]

6 hours ago, Calderis said:

It's a theory based on the members of the Seventeenth Shard who are in the Purelake interlude looking for Hoid. The thought process is that they arrived there, as the "plague" in the Purelake is the common cold, and was brought by them, and has not to our knowledge left the pure lake. Presumably, neither have they. 

Okay thanks, I remember seeing something about worldhoppers bringing the common cold, but had no idea that was the plague in the purelake.

[MistbornAlpaca]

Okay, here's my first impression of rereading this. What I got is not the same as what you guys got. So regarding the "if you are lucky" thing. From that, I got not that the perpendicularity wasn't always there, but that Hoid (aka the god) wasn't always there. So I think the perpendicularity itself is always there, but the chance of seeing Hoid as he emerges is rare. What do you guys think?

[Vortaan]

On 10/14/2017 at 7:02 PM, Krypton Savant said:

Hoid forbidden to hurt people by "other gods?" wonder what this could be. Other worldhoppers? Seventeenth Shard? Spren? The Horneaters see spren as gods.

It might be that hurting anyone on Roshar risks drawing Odium's attention. It could also just be Hoid's personality. Man seems like he's carrying around a lot of guilt for something, he might have a Doctor Whoish "I will not hurt people again because the last time was a doozy" thing.

[+Trellium]

4 minutes ago, Vortaan said:

It might be that hurting anyone on Roshar risks drawing Odium's attention.

Can't be that, Hoid's surprise at being able to hurt Kelsier at the well of ascension in Scadrial's Cognitive Realm in MSH rules out it being a strategic decision on Hoid's own part, and implies a more binding restraint. One that's conditions were not met by harming a cognitive shadow. 

[Vortaan]

19 hours ago, Trellium said:

Can't be that, Hoid's surprise at being able to hurt Kelsier at the well of ascension in Scadrial's Cognitive Realm in MSH rules out it being a strategic decision on Hoid's own part, and implies a more binding restraint. One that's conditions were not met by harming a cognitive shadow. 

That might be false correlation. Kelsier's a Cognitive ghost, Hoid is a flesh and blood person. It might be that he's shocked he can hurt Kelsier at all, considering their different statuses. Keep in mind that Scadrial doesn't have persistent Cognitive presences for people.

[kenod]

2 hours ago, Vortaan said:

That might be false correlation. Kelsier's a Cognitive ghost, Hoid is a flesh and blood person. It might be that he's shocked he can hurt Kelsier at all, considering their different statuses. Keep in mind that Scadrial doesn't have persistent Cognitive presences for people.

One of the reasons he could do it was because he wasn't actually hurting Kelsier. The reason Kelsier was hurt was because Kelsier instinctively knows that being beaten up should hurt, so his own mind supplied the pain for him.

Quote

“This is a lesson,” Drifter said, though it was difficult to hear the words through the pain. “But not the one you might think it is. You don’t have a body, and I don’t have the inclination to actually injure your soul. That pain is caused by your mind; it’s thinking about what should be happening to you, and responding.” He hesitated. “I’ll refrain from making you choke on a chunk of your own flesh.”
He walked toward the middle of the pool. Kelsier watched through eyes quivering with pain as Drifter held his hands out to the sides and closed his eyes. He stepped into the center of the pool, the deep portion, and vanished into the light.

(Secret Histories, part 2, chapter 1)

[+Trellium]

22 hours ago, kenod said:

One of the reasons he could do it was because he wasn't actually hurting Kelsier.

Quote

You're right, my assumption that Hoid's limitations to harming others don't apply to cognitive shadows may be false. It could be more about the precise definition of what constitutes harm than the nature of the entity upon which the "harm" was inflicted.

[MoS03]

From what we know, Jasnah may have used one perpendicularity, entered the Physical, got some Stormlight, and then ported to where Hoid is? Perhaps the amount she got only got her so far?

[Yata]

8 hours ago, MoS03 said:

From what we know, Jasnah may have used one perpendicularity, entered the Physical, got some Stormlight, and then ported to where Hoid is? Perhaps the amount she got only got her so far?

For the actual knowldge about Trasportation Surge, it will not allow you to move in the space but only between the Realms. By the way, nothing prevent Jasnah from finding some Stormlight in the CR and then use it to return in the PR

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

For the actual knowldge about Trasportation Surge, it will not allow you to move in the space but only between the Realms. By the way, nothing prevent Jasnah from finding some Stormlight in the CR and then use it to return in the PR

I will be surprised if the only use of Transportation is for crossing between the Realms. 

It's named transportation. It's use as a none fabrial Oathgate seems implied through the name alone. 

[AbsentKeeper]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I will be surprised if the only use of Transportation is for crossing between the Realms. 

It's named transportation. It's use as a none fabrial Oathgate seems implied through the name alone. 

I agree that there is probably a way to use Transportation for direct teleportation (or something similar) somehow.

However...

12 hours ago, MoS03 said:

From what we know, Jasnah may have used one perpendicularity, entered the Physical, got some Stormlight, and then ported to where Hoid is? Perhaps the amount she got only got her so far?

The WoB above confirms that she used a Perpendicularity this time.

Edit: As a side note though, I would love to see what Stormlight looks like, as well as how one would get it, in the CR.

Edited November 2, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Runyan Firetree]

Do we know anything about the two maps with ley lines from the WoR artwork collection?  Could one them be related to the moving perpendicularity in some way?

This entire Roshar map has ley lines running through both the Horneater Peaks and Pure Lake.

This frostlands map by Nahz has numerous ley lines and 5 seemingly randomly placed compass roses where several of the lines converge.  They don't seem to correspond to any known cities or towns on other maps (one is over the ocean), and given the artist I don't think it's a stretch that they could be of significance to a worldhopper.

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I will be surprised if the only use of Transportation is for crossing between the Realms. 

It's named transportation. It's use as a none fabrial Oathgate seems implied through the name alone. 

I agree it's possible, simply we don't know how the Oathgates work, maybe they have a whole infrastructure in the CR or maybe they use Trasportation+something else to teleport stuffs from locations