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The Rest of the Shards and Where to Find Them


Khyrindor

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On 10/18/2017 at 5:52 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

Another more far-fetched one could be Cultivation + Odium = Ruin, but I'm not really sold on that myself.

I can see Cultivation as a combination of Ruin and something else, not the other way around. Going from Cultivation to Ruin completely removes half of what Cultivation is(break something down to build it better). It feels like taking a step sideways or even backwards, rather than going forwards.

Going from Ruin to Cultivation adds something to what Ruin is, which feels more reasonable, as you are adding another Shard to Ruin.

On 10/18/2017 at 5:52 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

When discussing Ambition earlier today, I thought about Dominion, and it seems to me that it could be a possible pairing of Ambition and Odium.

Explain this one please. I simply don't see the connection that either Ambition or Odium have to Dominion, and I'm curious what I'm missing here.

On 10/18/2017 at 5:52 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

Also, The One Who Connects, I think you accidentally put in the wrong Shard here :-) 

Fixed.

On 10/18/2017 at 5:52 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

*Guidance
*Trickery

Even though I don't think it's gonna be a Shard, I can at least see where you are going with Guidance. But Trickery?

On 10/18/2017 at 5:52 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

Oh, and I also doubt that Enlightenment (or any other Shard) is with Silverlight. That would give them far too much knowledge far too easily. And then we would also have a Shard unable to find Yolen, which is weird, since Mraize may have done it. And Mraize is good, but not that good.

Quote
en·light·en·ment
inˈlītnmənt,enˈlītnmənt/
noun
noun: enlightenment; plural noun: enlightenments; singular proper noun: Enlightenment; noun: the Enlightenment
  1. the action of enlightening or the state of being enlightened.
    synonyms: insight, understanding, awareness, wisdom, education, learning, knowledge;
    illumination, awakening, teaching; sophistication, advancement, development

Learning and Development make my case. One learns by finding the answers, be it through experiences, study, or teachers. Silverlight is a scholarly community, and scholars know what they're talking about because they've studied, they've searched and found answers. Scholars are generally inquisitive minds, people who want answers and are willing to seek them out.

Enlightenment doesn't have to be the Shard of Knowledge. Brandon can very easily make Enlightenment be the Shard of "the pursuit of knowledge." As the moral of most all stories about seeking enlightenment; the real value is in seeking the knowledge, rather than the knowledge itself.

Brandon might even draw from Athena, the Greek Goddess of Wisdom(among other things), who largely provided hints and suggestions, rarely providing direct answers to mortals. She gave answers to Odysseus, but only after he impressed her with his resolve and cunning. Mraize is cunning... Either way, my point is that just because Khriss hasn't figured out how/where to find Yolen, that doesn't mean there's nobody there to tell her. A Shard of Wisdom and Knowledge probably has proficient skill in future sight, so maybe there's a reason why Khriss doesn't know and Mraize does.

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1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I can see Cultivation as a combination of Ruin and something else, not the other way around. Going from Cultivation to Ruin completely removes half of what Cultivation is(break something down to build it better). It feels like taking a step sideways or even backwards, rather than going forwards.

Going from Ruin to Cultivation adds something to what Ruin is, which feels more reasonable, as you are adding another Shard to Ruin.

Good point. 

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Explain this one please. I simply don't see the connection that either Ambition or Odium have to Dominion, and I'm curious what I'm missing here.

Attempting to dominate someone is a pretty ambitious action. Conquerors are usually incredibly ambitious. Dominating implies a kind of dictatorial style of governing/leading, and I just feel like Odium would add to that.

My main point with the Ruin and Dominion comments are that a Shard can have an intent which is also a possible mix of two other shards.

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Even though I don't think it's gonna be a Shard, I can at least see where you are going with Guidance. But Trickery?

Wishful thinking. I like the idea of a Trickery Shard. 

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Brandon might even draw from Athena, the Greek Goddess of Wisdom(among other things), who largely provided hints and suggestions, rarely providing direct answers to mortals. She gave answers to Odysseus, but only after he impressed her with his resolve and cunning. Mraize is cunning... Either way, my point is that just because Khriss hasn't figured out how/where to find Yolen, that doesn't mean there's nobody there to tell her. A Shard of Wisdom and Knowledge probably has proficient skill in future sight, so maybe there's a reason why Khriss doesn't know and Mraize does.

I'll give you this one. 

51 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

Anyone on board with Providence as a shard? I know it wouldn't fit with some of the other theories but I like the idea of a shard that provides exactly what someone needs when they need it. Almost like luck, but more directed and consistent.

I like it. I don't think it will be granting stuff to everyone everytime though. 

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Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

I like it. I don't think it will be granting stuff to everyone everytime though. 

No I was thinking more along the lines of how magic systems are already set up in the cosmere. Basically just the person with the right investiture/living in the right place being able to use that investiture to manipulate reality or fate or whatever to provide something specifically useful to their situation in the moment.

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2 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

No I was thinking more along the lines of how magic systems are already set up in the cosmere. Basically just the person with the right investiture/living in the right place being able to use that investiture to manipulate reality or fate or whatever to provide something specifically useful to their situation in the moment.

Sounds real cool, fingers crossed it'll happen!

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6 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Attempting to dominate someone is a pretty ambitious action. Conquerors are usually incredibly ambitious. Dominating implies a kind of dictatorial style of governing/leading,

Dominion ≠ Domination. At least, not necessarily. It's all about context and connotations.

Dominion is mostly used in the context of land/territory, and generally has positive/neutral connotations associated with it. Domination generally has negative connotations, and is also largely used in the context of people(world domination included, even though that's a case by case).

Quote

Dominion: When you are in charge of something or rule it, you have dominion over it. The most famous use of the word occurs in the Christian Bible, when God grants people dominion over other animals.

If you know the word domination, then you won't be surprised that dominion also has to do with a type of ruling over others. This is an old-fashioned and Biblical-sounding word for having power. A king has dominion over his kingdom. A dominion can also be an area or territory controlled by a larger country or state.


Domination: Domination means total control. Most comic book villains — and a few real people, too — spend their lives in pursuit of world domination.

Domination comes from the Latin word dominus, meaning "master" or "lord." This word conveys the idea not just of leadership, but of absolute, unchallengeable authority. So, just because your boss is in charge of the office doesn’t mean she engages in domination. Wait until she forces you to remove hundreds of staples by hand while she sends your coworker all the way to Costa Rica to fetch the coffee. But we hope it never comes to that.

I'd consider it similar to that of Rule and Control. They both mean something along the lines of being "in charge," but there's an implied level of strictness to Control that Rule doesn't have. And until we get more information from Brandon, we don't know where he drew the line on that level of strictness for Dominion.

58 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

My main point with the Ruin and Dominion comments are that a Shard can have an intent which is also a possible mix of two other shards.

That's fair.

59 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Wishful thinking. I like the idea of a Trickery Shard. 

We already have Hoid. What more do you need?

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7 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Dominion ≠ Domination. At least, not necessarily. It's all about context and connotations.

Dominion is mostly used in the context of land/territory, and generally has positive/neutral connotations associated with it. Domination generally has negative connotations, and is also largely used in the context of people(world domination included, even though that's a case by case).

I'd consider it similar to that of Rule and Control. They both mean something along the lines of being "in charge," but there's an implied level of strictness to Control that Rule doesn't have. And until we get more information from Brandon, we don't know where he drew the line on that level of strictness for Dominion.

Fair enough. I blame the fact that english is my second language.

8 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

We already have Hoid. What more do you need?

I can't have enough tricksters in my stories.

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6 hours ago, The Invested Beard said:

No I was thinking more along the lines of how magic systems are already set up in the cosmere. Basically just the person with the right investiture/living in the right place being able to use that investiture to manipulate reality or fate or whatever to provide something specifically useful to their situation in the moment.

Something similar to Leven Thumps? 

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12 hours ago, The Invested Beard said:

Anyone on board with Providence as a shard? I know it wouldn't fit with some of the other theories but I like the idea of a shard that provides exactly what someone needs when they need it. Almost like luck, but more directed and consistent.

It wouldn't necessarily be lucky.

As someone who believes in God, I believe that even bad things happen for good reasons. The belief in Divine Providence is that everything that happens, for good or bad, occurs because it is necessary for us to grow and fulfill our purpose in life. And that everything that happens is ultimately for good.

My issue with a Shard of providence is that, in effect, it would be a limited version of the Judeo-Christian God. Which would make it far too similar to what Adonalsium appears to have been, at least to my mind.

 

With regard to dominion: a long time theory of mine is that the Union of Devotion and Dominion is not Unity (as some have theorized) but Malchius, an idea which kind of translates into Kingship, but is rather more complex. 

Edited by Kingsdaughter613
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  • 4 weeks later...
On 10/14/2017 at 9:30 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

We could also do a quick headcount of who is alive and dead. We have this WoB:

[WoB dated at time of Shadows of Self]

We know four dead Shards (Ambition, Dominion, Devotion and Honor). We also know about six living Shards (Autonomy, Cultivation, Ruin, Odium, Preservation and Endowment). This means that four of our unknowns might be dead. Then we have this WoB:

Quick note that affects your math here....the WoB about roughly half-ish the Shards being alive used Shadows of Self as the timestamp for that. Which means Ruin and Preservation weren't necessarily whole depending on if Brandon was thinking of the question in terms of the status of the original sixteen. You have Ruin and Preservation listed as still alive, but Brandon could have been thinking of them in the dead column, if he were assuming that the questioner was asking for insight into the original sixteen Shardholders....which would put the count at Ambition, Honor, Dominion, Devotion, Ruin and Preservation - with the living as Cultivation, Odium, Autonomy, and Endowment. So of the six unknowns, there could still be three, four or even five that are still alive, if half-ish means as little as seven "dead" or as many as nine.

I do like the idea of Justice as a Shard, but I wonder if it might be considered a sub-Intent of Honor, especially given the focus and aim of the Skybreakers. Which, again, from a certain POV might make Brandon's coy reference to a Shard of Justice being dead true in the sense of Honor is dead, and if Justice is of Honor....well.

Something I've been thinking of in regards to what's happening on Roshar is that we talk a lot about potential combined Shards and what might happen if say, Dalinar were to take up the restored Shard of Honor or take up a combined Shard of Honor plus Odium. However, we've seen both of these things happen before with Vin temporarily taking up Preservation and Sazed taking up the combined Ruin plus Preservation. Rather than repeating the same thematic beats, it occurred to me it might be interesting if the Stormlight Archive ends with a new variation.....what if the series results in recombining Splinters of Honor, but falls short of restoring Honor as a single entity and instead results in a couple of Vessels picking up Shards of Honor's subdivided Intents, like a Justice Shard and a Loyalty Shard, etc? We have WoB that its theoretically possible for Splinters to have their own Intents if they're large enough....it could be interesting if the Stormlight Archive culminates in not a new batch of Heralds with a new Oathpact but rather a group of Vessels holding Intents that are all derived of Honor? 

Edited by ROSHtaFARian2.0
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I have a theory about the nature of Odium after reading Oathbringer. 

Oathbringer Spoilers Ahead

 

Spoiler

 

So reading Oathbringer I found the Intent of Odium to be different than I expected. From previous descriptions it seemed that hatred was Odium's defining characteristic, however in Oathbringer passion seemed to be what Odium cared most for. It could be he is simply more crafty than Ruin and is able to better hide his true desires but in most of the interactions with the fused and other servants of Odium cared deeply of passion not only the hatred we're already familiar with.  This brings me to my theory that Odium is a fused shard like Harmony. To me Odium feels like two Intents merged into one, Hatred and Zeal(passion). 

My guess would be that some point soon after the shattering of Adonalsium the shard of Hatred, who's vessel is Rayse, killed but didn't splinter the vessel of Zeal. Rayse then Connected to Zeal and formed Odium. This could explain why Odium seems to be by far the most powerful shard, able to splinter two shards at the same time as seen with Devotion and Dominion. Odium seems to be trapped in the Roshar System facing the combined might of Honor and Cultivation and seems to have already splintered Honor. I think the combination of shards is likely easier than the one case we've seen. Ruin and Preservation are shards who's Intents are opposed and yet they were able to combine to form Harmony but, Harmony is strictly limited because of the polarity of the combined shards. Shards such as Hatred and Zeal would be much more aligned than Ruin and Preservation meaning their combination would allow Odium much more freedom than Harmony. This doesn't seem to contradict what we know for certain about Odium as this would be a good explanation as to why Odium is the most powerful shard, because he is a fused shard without the restrictions that Harmony holds. The shard of Zeal or Passion would do little to temper "God's divine hatred" which fits with what we do know of Odium. 

This shard of Zeal would likely replace the shard of Charisma that was outlined at the beginning of this thread. Zeal or Passion certainly seems like a divine attribute that fits into the scheme and it also doesn't seem like the most natural affinity for the shard of pure Hatred.

 

 

Edited by Dah Pie
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  • 2 weeks later...

I was going to do a post very similar to this one, but I found this thread while trying to credit one of my ideas to someone else. So I'll post it here first.  

I thought Oathbringer dropped the names of two new Shards - Wisdom & Purity - but both of those references are contested (neither passage capitalizes the name when it seems like it should be if these were indeed references to new Shards). So, I spent an afternoon doing research on the attributes of God in the Abrahamic faith traditions. I even delved a little into Norse, Canaanite, and Babylonian Mythology as well as Chinese folk religion (I intentionally ignored the Greco-Roman, Hindu & Egyptian pantheons for various reasons).

Here is what I came up with (spoilered for length & new details from OB about the Shards on Roshar):

Spoiler

  Moral Ideals   ← heavy Spiritual aspect 
   1. Honor (implied to be equivalent to Honesty and/or Faithfulness - or whatever other quality may be inferred from an unwavering commitment to the keeping of oaths - in OB)
   2. Purity ← unconfirmed
   3. Wisdom ← unconfirmed
   4. Devotion  (implied to be equivalent to Love per WoB stating that "Love" was the original name for this shard) 

 ???? - Mystery Category  ← Emotion, Personality, or some other sort of Cognitive aspect 
   5. Odium (a.k.a. Passion per OB)
   6.
   7.
   8.

  Kingship   ← no strong Realmatic aspect; these are primarily ideals related to divine authority 
   9. Autonomy
 10. Ambition ← could be something else... Ambition could easily fall under the Mystery/Cognitive category
 11. Dominion
 12.


  Creative Abilities   ← heavy Physical aspect 
 13. Cultivation (a.k.a. Transformation per OB)
 14. Ruin (a.k.a. Entropy per HoA)
 15. Endowment This may seem like a strange fit here, but I'm thinking of the endowment of creation with innate investiture
 16. Preservation ← could be something else... Preservation could easily fall under Kingship

Divine attributes common to all Shards

  • immanent (investment in the physical)
  • eternal/immortal
  • immutable (unchanging)
  • omni-present (within realm)
  • spiritual in essence
  • ineffable (cannot be fully understood by mortals)
  • A paragon of Intent (eventually and not completely, but mostly)
  • The Cosmere is Henotheistic after the Shattering
    • Pre-shattering Cosmology appears to have been Monotheistic, but that is uncertain.
    • If all the Shards were to be shattered, the Cosmere might become either...
      • Animistic: There are hundreds of trillions of gods (e.g. spren or aons) or more; everything probably has a god, up to and including individual blades of grass.        
      • Pantheistic: God is in everything and everything is God (e.g. the One on Roshar)
      • NOTE: Pantheism overlaps with and occasionally reverts back to monotheism (e.g. the rebirth of the cosmos after Ragnarök in Norse Mythology). This could be how Adonalsium came to be (and will come to be again) Wheel of Time style.

Potential candidates for other shards:

  •  Creativity / Imagination / Serendipity / Inspiration Creative Abil. or ???? Category
  •  Hope ???? Category
  •  Love ???? Categorylikely covered by Devotion
  •  Mercy / Empathy ???? Category
  •  Unity ???? Category
  •  Contentment / Fulfillment ???? Category
  •  Courage ???? Category
  •  Order Kingship Categorylikely covered by Dominion / Honor
  •  Discipline Kingship Categorylikely covered by Honor and/or Cultivation
  •  Kindness ???? Categorylikely covered by Devotion / Endowment
  •  Fear / Respect ???? Category or Kingship Category
  •  Pride / Majesty ???? Category or Kingship Category
Edited by Ookla the Hatter
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23 hours ago, Ookla the Hatter said:

I was going to do a post very similar to this one, but I found this thread while trying to credit one of my ideas to someone else. So I'll post it here first.  

I thought Oathbringer dropped the names of two new Shards - Wisdom & Purity - but both of those references are contested (neither passage capitalizes the name when it seems like it should be if these were indeed references to new Shards). So, I spent an afternoon doing research on the attributes of God in the Abrahamic faith traditions. I even delved a little into Norse, Canaanite, and Babylonian Mythology as well as Chinese folk religion (I intentionally ignored the Greco-Roman, Hindu & Egyptian pantheons for various reasons).

Here is what I came up with (spoilered for length & new details from OB about the Shards on Roshar):

  Reveal hidden contents

  Moral Ideals   ← heavy Spiritual aspect 
   1. Honor (implied to be equivalent to Honesty and/or Faithfulness - or whatever other quality may be inferred from an unwavering commitment to the keeping of oaths - in OB)
   2. Purity ← unconfirmed
   3. Wisdom ← unconfirmed
   4. Devotion  (implied to be equivalent to Love per WoB stating that "Love" was the original name for this shard) 

 ???? - Mystery Category  ← Emotion, Personality, or some other sort of Cognitive aspect 
   5. Odium (a.k.a. Passion per OB)
   6.
   7.
   8.

  Kingship   ← no strong Realmatic aspect; these are primarily ideals related to divine authority 
   9. Autonomy
 10. Ambition ← could be something else... Ambition could easily fall under the Mystery/Cognitive category
 11. Dominion
 12.


  Creative Abilities   ← heavy Physical aspect 
 13. Cultivation (a.k.a. Transformation per OB)
 14. Ruin (a.k.a. Entropy per HoA)
 15. Endowment This may seem like a strange fit here, but I'm thinking of the endowment of creation with innate investiture
 16. Preservation ← could be something else... Preservation could easily fall under Kingship

Divine attributes common to all Shards

  • immanent (investment in the physical)
  • eternal/immortal
  • immutable (unchanging)
  • omni-present (within realm)
  • spiritual in essence
  • ineffable (cannot be fully understood by mortals)
  • A paragon of Intent (eventually and not completely, but mostly)
  • The Cosmere is Henotheistic after the Shattering
    • Pre-shattering Cosmology appears to have been Monotheistic, but that is uncertain.
    • If all the Shards were to be shattered, the Cosmere might become either...
      • Animistic: There are hundreds of trillions of gods (e.g. spren or aons) or more; everything probably has a god, up to and including individual blades of grass.        
      • Pantheistic: God is in everything and everything is God (e.g. the One on Roshar)
      • NOTE: Pantheism overlaps with and occasionally reverts back to monotheism (e.g. the rebirth of the cosmos after Ragnarök in Norse Mythology). This could be how Adonalsium came to be (and will come to be again) Wheel of Time style.

Potential candidates for other shards:

  •  Creativity / Imagination / Serendipity / Inspiration Creative Abil. or ???? Category
  •  Hope ???? Category
  •  Love ???? Categorylikely covered by Devotion
  •  Mercy / Empathy ???? Category
  •  Unity ???? Category
  •  Contentment / Fulfillment ???? Category
  •  Courage ???? Category
  •  Order Kingship Categorylikely covered by Dominion / Honor
  •  Discipline Kingship Categorylikely covered by Honor and/or Cultivation
  •  Kindness ???? Categorylikely covered by Devotion / Endowment
  •  Fear / Respect ???? Category or Kingship Category
  •  Pride / Majesty ???? Category or Kingship Category

This is excellent! Very thorough and well-made! I have some thoughts. 

We can't forget about the Survival shard (which I personally think is Patji, though Patji may be something new.)

Purity, if you look at the Threnody map featured in Arcanum Unbounded, is the name of a real large planet/thing in the outer Threnody System, so I think that's what that means. Wisdom, however, is a decent bet. 

I quite like the idea of Mercy or Fulfilment, also Order, perhaps Order and Chaos are binary shards, but that could just be interpretations of Ruin and Preservation. Serendipity is good, as is Empathy. Empathy would be a good match against Odium, I think. And Unity, though a mystery, is always a possibility. 

Very well done, I'd love to see more on this. 

Edited by Ookla the Melodious
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I really like this discussion, and the effort of the first post! Enigma sounds like an especially neat Shard. I've been thinking about something similar, but I've never been able to really pin something down. But Enigma even sounds nice. Purity sounds like something I could totally see as a Shard as well. 

If I were to make any changes, it'd be these. 

Prudence (replaces Enlightenment) 

Prudence is the classical virtue that allows you to govern yourself, and (quoting wikipedia) "its function is to point out which course of action is to be taken in any concrete circumstances /../Without prudence, bravery becomes foolhardiness; mercy sinks into weakness, and temperance into fanaticism". Now, if there's anything all Shards lack, its some Prudence to help moderate their Intents, because as we've seen, they seem to mostly take them to the extreme. All that prudence must've gone somewhere, probably into a Shard. Of course, it could be called Wisdom or maybe Temperance. But I Iike Prudence more, because it feels very specific in the classical interpretation, and Wisdom just makes me think of the generic role-playing mental stat. So I'd hope for Prudence or Temperance, depending on exactly how the Intent would work. 

I would also suggest that this is a Shard that Odium has killed, or very much tried to kill. Not necessarily because he fears it on its own, but because it would synergise really well with probably any other Shard. And so you'd get Sazed, but not inhibited by opposing forces. Possibly this is the Shard that has decided to hide in empty space, because hiding from Odium would be the sensible course of action. Tangentially related to survival ... Of course, it could also mean it's decided to take an active part against him. 


Inspiration (replaces Charisma)

Inspiration sounds more divine to me, but it kind of boils down to the same thing? Inspiring people is an important part of leadership, and is something that would get people to want to worship you. 


Curiosity (replaces Chaos)

First, I don't think there's any need for a "negative neutrality", because I don't really see what it would do. Seems more like a lack of Intent. Curiosity, on the other hand, could be an important part of Creation, because it'd be the thirst for knowledge, the desire to understand and expand your horizons. I haven't really felt that any Shards have a lot of curiosity. Perhaps this could fall under Cultivation, but it could be just as likely that she isn't really curious, that she just grows things because, with no interest in the understanding the results. I could also see a lot of nice magic systems around it. Anything to do with inventions and ingenuity, as well as more trickster-like systems, since a lot of trickery could boil down to "I want to see how they react when I do this to them". 

Also, if you combined Curiosity with Prudence, you'd get what I would call Enlightenment. 


Sloth: induldgence, complacency, disdain (replaces Retribution)

Because even God should have a side that wants to do nothing more than sit and do nothing productive whatsoever. To be proud of what has been done already, to feel that it's enough. The side that convinces God to take a break. It would serve to temper the active Shards quite a lot. I'm not really sure about the name, or the exact Intent. But something along those lines? A Shard like this would also be a very good candidate for the Shard that hides out in space, because why would it bother with Investing in a planet? Chilling in space and watching the universe must be the ultimate way to just be unproductive. I also wanted something else with a very strong negative connotation.

I say that I would replace Retribution because I don't think Retribution needs a Shard of its own. It could very well be a combination of Odium, Honor and maybe Prudence. Justice would probably be only Produnce and Honor. 

 

 


There are also a few that I considered but rejected, because I already think they exist in most Shards. Either of them could probably still exist, but I don't think they do. Anyway, these: 

Fortitude/Courage/Perseverence, Passion, Altruism/Benevolence

Courage feels like it could be great, but when has a Shard every shown lack of courage? They just keep on going in the face of adversity, risking their own necks for their Intents. They all feel very strongly about their Intents (they are passionate, you could say). And they've shown great capacity for Altruism, such as Preservation and Honor literally giving up their lives for mortals. I think these aspects of Adonalsium were just divided across many Shards. 

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3 hours ago, Tazren said:

I really like this discussion, and the effort of the first post! Enigma sounds like an especially neat Shard. I've been thinking about something similar, but I've never been able to really pin something down. But Enigma even sounds nice. Purity sounds like something I could totally see as a Shard as well. 

Thank you! I wish I was more respondent on this thread--you may have helped me to do so.

3 hours ago, Tazren said:

If I were to make any changes, it'd be these. 

Prudence (replaces Enlightenment) 

Prudence is the classical virtue that allows you to govern yourself, and (quoting wikipedia) "its function is to point out which course of action is to be taken in any concrete circumstances /../Without prudence, bravery becomes foolhardiness; mercy sinks into weakness, and temperance into fanaticism". Now, if there's anything all Shards lack, its some Prudence to help moderate their Intents, because as we've seen, they seem to mostly take them to the extreme. All that prudence must've gone somewhere, probably into a Shard. Of course, it could be called Wisdom or maybe Temperance. But I Iike Prudence more, because it feels very specific in the classical interpretation, and Wisdom just makes me think of the generic role-playing mental stat. So I'd hope for Prudence or Temperance, depending on exactly how the Intent would work. 

I would also suggest that this is a Shard that Odium has killed, or very much tried to kill. Not necessarily because he fears it on its own, but because it would synergise really well with probably any other Shard. And so you'd get Sazed, but not inhibited by opposing forces. Possibly this is the Shard that has decided to hide in empty space, because hiding from Odium would be the sensible course of action. Tangentially related to survival ... Of course, it could also mean it's decided to take an active part against him. 


Inspiration (replaces Charisma)

Inspiration sounds more divine to me, but it kind of boils down to the same thing? Inspiring people is an important part of leadership, and is something that would get people to want to worship you. 


Curiosity (replaces Chaos)

First, I don't think there's any need for a "negative neutrality", because I don't really see what it would do. Seems more like a lack of Intent. Curiosity, on the other hand, could be an important part of Creation, because it'd be the thirst for knowledge, the desire to understand and expand your horizons. I haven't really felt that any Shards have a lot of curiosity. Perhaps this could fall under Cultivation, but it could be just as likely that she isn't really curious, that she just grows things because, with no interest in the understanding the results. I could also see a lot of nice magic systems around it. Anything to do with inventions and ingenuity, as well as more trickster-like systems, since a lot of trickery could boil down to "I want to see how they react when I do this to them". 

Also, if you combined Curiosity with Prudence, you'd get what I would call Enlightenment. 

I really like these ideas! Especially Prudence. I'm worried that Wisdom is what Brandon has in mind, as I agree it is somewhat lackluster. Prudence and Enlightenment both (to me) sound really cool for one thing, and would have more depth than simply "Wisdom". I agree that whichever the Intent of the Shard is that gets this mandate, it'll be the Shard that is hiding and surviving, biding their time, and that Odium would want to get rid of them. I am certain that this thread has at least put forth the Intent Brandon has settled on, we just don't know which.

On Inspiration, I don't know why I didn't think of that particular word. It sounds more fitting that Charisma as an Intent, and fulfills most of what it's about. Though the specific mandate I have in mind is more of a combination of the two and something I don't think we really have a good word for in English.

I was never really sold on Chaos, but of these, Curiosity doesn't quite feel 100% right either. If there is a Shard of Ingenuity (which I am increasingly finding more likely), I feel like Curiosity would be summed up with it.

3 hours ago, Tazren said:

Sloth: indulgence, complacency, disdain (replaces Retribution)

Because even God should have a side that wants to do nothing more than sit and do nothing productive whatsoever. To be proud of what has been done already, to feel that it's enough. The side that convinces God to take a break. It would serve to temper the active Shards quite a lot. I'm not really sure about the name, or the exact Intent. But something along those lines? A Shard like this would also be a very good candidate for the Shard that hides out in space, because why would it bother with Investing in a planet? Chilling in space and watching the universe must be the ultimate way to just be unproductive. I also wanted something else with a very strong negative connotation.

I say that I would replace Retribution because I don't think Retribution needs a Shard of its own. It could very well be a combination of Odium, Honor and maybe Prudence. Justice would probably be only Prudence and Honor. 

I like the mandate you're getting at, but I don't like any of the names you put for it. Maybe Satisfaction? Fulfillment? This would make a nice contrast to a hypothetical Shard of Curiosity or Ingenuity. You create, and then are satisfied to finish once it's perfected. It would also, on it's own, be a good Non-Intervention archetype.

3 hours ago, Tazren said:

There are also a few that I considered but rejected, because I already think they exist in most Shards. Either of them could probably still exist, but I don't think they do. Anyway, these: 

Fortitude/Courage/Perseverence, Passion, Altruism/Benevolence

Courage feels like it could be great, but when has a Shard every shown lack of courage? They just keep on going in the face of adversity, risking their own necks for their Intents. They all feel very strongly about their Intents (they are passionate, you could say). And they've shown great capacity for Altruism, such as Preservation and Honor literally giving up their lives for mortals. I think these aspects of Adonalsium were just divided across many Shards. 

There definitely needs to be more discussion on which attributes are present in every Shard to an extent, even as a by-product of holding so much Investiture.

Which is a good segue to comment on another post:

On 12/4/2017 at 8:21 AM, Ookla the Hatter said:

Divine attributes common to all Shards

  • immanent (investment in the physical)
  • eternal/immortal
  • immutable (unchanging)
  • omni-present (within realm)
  • spiritual in essence
  • ineffable (cannot be fully understood by mortals)
  • A paragon of Intent (eventually and not completely, but mostly)
  • The Cosmere is Henotheistic after the Shattering
    • Pre-shattering Cosmology appears to have been Monotheistic, but that is uncertain.
    • If all the Shards were to be shattered, the Cosmere might become either...
      • Animistic: There are hundreds of trillions of gods (e.g. spren or aons) or more; everything probably has a god, up to and including individual blades of grass.        
      • Pantheistic: God is in everything and everything is God (e.g. the One on Roshar)
      • NOTE: Pantheism overlaps with and occasionally reverts back to monotheism (e.g. the rebirth of the cosmos after Ragnarök in Norse Mythology). This could be how Adonalsium came to be (and will come to be again) Wheel of Time style.

I think a lot of this is more of a by-product on holding Investiture, and little to do with overarching Intents.

  • Shards are eternal and immortal because of the Investiture that expands their soul and makes them unable to age.
  • Ineffable because they are simply too vast in power for an unexpanded mind to comprehend, not because of an attribute like intentional mystery or ambiguity.

I actually disagree with these two being something every Shard has to some degree:

  • Immutability: I think it's actually very possible for the Shards to change. I think we've seen evidence of this with how Bavadin interprets her Intent; with how with new Vessels, Intents can be interpreted in different ways, almost like a filter (which we see with Odium calling himself Passion, and perhaps with Dalinar interpreting Honor as Unity); and with Harmony beginning to change over time into something more like Discord. Granted the Intents never change on their own, and Investiture is indestructible. I also think the Intent of Preservation would "sum up" Immutability as an intent. Immutability was one of the "Godlike necessities" that I came across in my own research, but dismissed as it is part of Preservation.
  • Omnipresence: Harmony is a good example of this. He needs to be actively looking into something to see it, he doesn't see all. He relies on servants (kandra) to do most of his work. Ruin also showed that he could only speak to people and not hear their thoughts--opposite to Preservation. Many Shards may have a varying degree of future sight, as a by-product of being able to clearly see into the Spiritual Realm.

To be clear, I agree that there may be something to do with Shards having commonalities as far as Intents go, but I would be hesitant to explain what is a by-product of Investiture as something that is an intentional godlike trait from Adonalsium.

On 12/4/2017 at 8:21 AM, Ookla the Hatter said:

I was going to do a post very similar to this one, but I found this thread while trying to credit one of my ideas to someone else. So I'll post it here first.  

I thought Oathbringer dropped the names of two new Shards - Wisdom & Purity - but both of those references are contested (neither passage capitalizes the name when it seems like it should be if these were indeed references to new Shards). So, I spent an afternoon doing research on the attributes of God in the Abrahamic faith traditions. I even delved a little into Norse, Canaanite, and Babylonian Mythology as well as Chinese folk religion (I intentionally ignored the Greco-Roman, Hindu & Egyptian pantheons for various reasons).

Welcome to the thread! Sorry about quoting your post out of order.

Seconding @SilverTiger that Purity's Eye was already referenced in the Threnody Star Chart, which is why I included it in the OP. I think it is fitting for a godlike Intent, though I see why it's contested.

On Wisdom, I expressed above that I hope it's something more overarching, but I agree that that's what we're being hinted towards. Both with the WoB that said "Surviving was a...wise thing for it to do", and Hoid's reference in Oathbringer.

Your research was more extensive than mine. I appreciate the thought you've put into it; thank you for joining the thread.

On 12/4/2017 at 8:21 AM, Ookla the Hatter said:

Here is what I came up with (spoilered for length & new details from OB about the Shards on Roshar):

  Hide contents

  Moral Ideals   ← heavy Spiritual aspect 
   1. Honor (implied to be equivalent to Honesty and/or Faithfulness - or whatever other quality may be inferred from an unwavering commitment to the keeping of oaths - in OB)
   2. Purity ← unconfirmed
   3. Wisdom ← unconfirmed
   4. Devotion  (implied to be equivalent to Love per WoB stating that "Love" was the original name for this shard) 

 ???? - Mystery Category  ← Emotion, Personality, or some other sort of Cognitive aspect 
   5. Odium (a.k.a. Passion per OB)
   6.
   7.
   8.

  Kingship   ← no strong Realmatic aspect; these are primarily ideals related to divine authority 
   9. Autonomy
 10. Ambition ← could be something else... Ambition could easily fall under the Mystery/Cognitive category
 11. Dominion
 12.


  Creative Abilities   ← heavy Physical aspect 
 13. Cultivation (a.k.a. Transformation per OB)
 14. Ruin (a.k.a. Entropy per HoA)
 15. Endowment This may seem like a strange fit here, but I'm thinking of the endowment of creation with innate investiture
 16. Preservation ← could be something else... Preservation could easily fall under Kingship

I like your categorizing (very similar to my own).

If you don't mind me switching yours around a bit (adding in some hypothetical Shards and trying my best to follow your ):

Spoiler

Kingship   ← no strong Realmatic aspect; these are primarily ideals related to divine authority 

  • Dominion
  • Autonomy
  • Inspiration/Charisma --Could be better placed in Moral Ideals or Cognitive Action, though it fits the pattern of Leadership
  •  

 Creative Abilities   ← heavy Physical aspect

  • Preservation/Harmony
  • Ruin/Harmony
  • Ingenuity 
  • Cultivation

  Moral Ideals   ← heavy Spiritual aspect 

  • Ambition
  • Odium/Passion
  • Purity/Holiness --May fit into Kingship
  • Prudence/Wisdom --May also fit into Cognitive Action

 Cognitive Action  ←  Personality in action, or some other sort of Cognitive aspect 

  • Endowment
  • Honor/Unity
  • Devotion --Though this may better fit in with Kingship, it is still a Cognitive Active Personality

Combining the ideas of Shards having overarching similarities, and your idea of grouping into Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual Ideals, I actually think that Each Shard has a bit of each Ideal in mind within its Intent. I can see this the most blatantly with the Shard of Cultivation. In many ways we see this related to cultivated crops, or symbiosis on Roshar on the physical side of things. But to purely label it a Physical aspect is very far from what we see of Cultivation. In addition to the physical examples I've already mentioned, she also cultivates people by messing with their Spirit Web, as seen with the Nightwatcher. She is very heavily on many levels beyond the physical, which makes it clearer that we shouldn't group Shards into categories like that. It's also hard to justify that thought and separate them into quadrants.

I am interested in your thoughts on that.

 

I think I am done for now, but now that the thread is more active, and in light of Oathbringer stuff, I may do an updated list of my 16 candidates.

Edited by Khyrindor
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4 hours ago, Khyrindor said:
  • Omnipresence: Harmony is a good example of this. He needs to be actively looking into something to see it, he doesn't see all. He relies on servants (Kandra) to do most of his work. Ruin also showed that he could only speak to people and not hear their thoughts--opposite to Preservation. Many Shards may have a varying degree of future sight, as a by-product of being able to clearly see into the Spiritual Realm.
 

Let's keep in mind that we aren't looking for just Godlike abilities and attributes. We are talking about Uncle Andy's abilities and attributes. I don't think that Omnipotence, Omnipresence or Omniscience would apply to Adonalsium. If he had any of these three, I don't see how he could have been Shattered. I mean, he would have needed to want to Shatter himself to do that. So unless the 16 talked him into committing suicide (please no) then Adonalsium can't have these three godlike attributes.

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Hi. I'm not very active here, but this thread intrigued me, so i wanted to chime in. Almost all of the proposed new Shard names in my opinion lack snappyness, they have some logic behind the naming, but its just doesn't roll of the tongue like the names of the know Shards. That might be just my biased opinion. So i like to propose my on Shard names, that at least to me, sound just right and explain the logic behind them.

This is the grouping i use (explanation will follow below):

Devotion-Dominion-Odium-Ambition

Ruin-Honor-Emergence-???

Cultivation-Endowment-Preservation-Immersion

Autonomy-Isolation-Subjugation-??? 

So the first group all have been killed by Odium, my logic is that he went after those most similar to him first. Also this resonates with the allomantic metals, Devotion and Dominion with external focus (you can dominate or devote yourself to someone) and Odium (passion) and Ambition with internal focus (you can be passionate/ambitions about something).

 

Second group is fundamental forces. Ruin and Honor fall perfectly in this category. Ruin the force of entropy. Honor is anthropomorphised  fundamental forces. Preservation in my logic does not fall in this group, since there is no universal force of unchange (stasis). While Ruin and Preservation are opposing shards they are not exactly opposite. So i proposed a Shard named Emergence. Emergence is not exactly a force, but natures way of getting more and more complicated over time, dumb little parts becoming something greater over long periods. I think there is a WoB, where Brandon mentions that not all Shards have opposites, but there can be more then 2 opposing Shards. (im bad at foruming, cant find the WoB).

Third group. Just makes sense to me. They also could be assigned internal and external focus.

Fourth group. The Shard that wants to run and hide, i actually thought it was canonized to be Isolation, but since nobody mentioned it here i guess i dreamed that up myself. Shard of Subjugation sounds awesome, although it might overlap with Dominion a bit. Subjugation would be opposite to Autonomy, both would have external focus, while Isolation and Unnamed Shard would have internal focus.

I could write more to explain my logic, but first would like to hear some critique. I might be pulling this from my posterior.

Edited by metatr0n
Seems you cant use the word that starts with a and ends with double s
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