[OB] That which was broken.

[Calderis]

I have been thinking about what was done to the Parshmen, and although I still don't have any idea about how the Bondsmiths were able to do what they did, I believe that I understand what was targeted in order to achieve it.

In the WoR interludes, Eshonai says this while discussing the upcoming test of the storm spren. 

Quote

"This could change the world, Bila," Eshonai said. "If Venli is right, and she can bond with this spren and come out with anything other than dullform... Well, at the very least we will have an entirely new form to choose. At the greatest we will we have power to control the storms and tap their energy."

From this, it seems to me that when the Parshendi test a new spren, they get two possible results. Dullform, or a new form. 

To me this says that dullform is... Not a true form. I've been describing it as the listener OS safemode. If they take in a spren that does not result in a specific form, their body reverts to dullform to prevent unwanted/dangerous changes to their physiology. 

I believe that when the Parshendi bond with a spren, the part of them that detects the rhythms integrates the Spren into their spiritweb. Dullform, does not do this. They take in the Spren, and the part of them that would normal integrate with the Spren cognitively retracts as a form of self protection. 

When the Bondsmiths of old targeted the listeners, they reached out somehow and severed the part of the spiritweb that creates the listener bond. For the last legion, who had reverted to dullform to protect themselves,  this part of their spiritweb was dormant, enabling them to retain the ability to change forms. 

This also explains why dullform and slaveform look so similar. In dullform, the portion of the spiritweb that allows the bond is dormant, and so they look similar to a form, or complete lack thereof, in which that portion has been literally removed. 

The Everstorm has now passed over and regrown the portion of spiritweb that allows the bond to occur in these listeners, and so for the first time they can hear the rhythms, but they don't know how to attune them and thus don't speak to them. They also have no spren to press them into safemode, so I think these newly freed Parshmen are what a listener looks like with no bond at all (I wonder if a Parshendi seeing them would think of them as babies grown large?). 

[The Invested Beard]

I like it. All the pieces seem to fit. I'm quite curious as to the mechanism the Everstorm utilizes to make this repair.

[redbishop]

I like it, as well, in general, but can I propose that perhaps they hacked something extra in, instead?  The Bondsmith Surges are Tension and Adhesion, so maybe they pulled on two parts of the spiritweb and the sDNA that are the normal attachment points for most spren, and stick them together instead.  Or some mechanic to splice them in some way.

Then the Everstorm comes, and undoes that alteration.  Tearing something apart or ripping something out seems more in keeping with a storm born of hatred.

[bo.montier]

So what's the difference between slave-form and dull-form? There clearly is, it was dull-forms that discovered the first form, where the slaveform couldn't imagine it or work towards it. Does dullform have increased abilities simply due to that portion of their spiritweb being intact?

Final question: What if Eshonai was not saying that those are the two options, but to signify that there was an element of pure chance to it, so you could come out with any of the known forms? My primary objection to this question would be that if the change had a, let's say 1% chance of coming out with a different form than you intended why weren't other forms regularly discovered...Ok, never mind. I think you're right on that point.

[Calderis]

1 minute ago, bo.montier said:

So what's the difference between slave-form and dull-form? There clearly is, it was dull-forms that discovered the first form, where the slaveform couldn't imagine it or work towards it. Does dullform have increased abilities simply due to that portion of their spiritweb being intact?

Dullform are still able to think coherently, though with difficulty, and sense the rhythms, we see this with both Zuln of the five and Shen/Rlain. 

Yes. I think this is due to having a complete spiritweb. 

[bo.montier]

Just now, Calderis said:

Dullform are still able to think coherently, though with difficulty, and sense the rhythms, we see this with both Zuln of the five and Shen/Rlain. 

Yes. I think this is due to having a complete spiritweb. 

Yeah, the different cognitive abilities are pretty clear, otherwise the parshendi could never have developed past a group of dullforms. 

It makes sense to me that a complete spiritweb would be required for thought. Hmmm, I wonder if that means someone with a severely damaged spirit web, i.e. someone like Kaladin, Shallan, Dalinar, other candidates for investiture have inherently flawed thought patterns, at least until they are made whole by investiture...Maybe damaged spiritweb is distinct from incomplete...

[Toaster Retribution]

So you are basically saying that a Listener automatically turns into Dullform as a safe-mode when picking up a spren that won't give them another form?

Sounds good to me.

[knightedbishop]

I like this theory. My one question: where did you get that bondsmiths are responsible for the parshmen’s loss of forms? 

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, knightedbishop said:

I like this theory. My one question: where did you get that bondsmiths are responsible for the parshmen’s loss of forms? 

WoR ch. 58 epigraph. 

Quote

So Melishi retired to his tent, and resolved to destroy the Voidbringers upon the next day, but that night did present a different stratagem, related to the unique abilities of the Bondsmiths; and being hurried, he could make no specific account of his process; it was related to the very nature of the Heralds and their divine duties, an attribute the Bondsmiths alone could address.

 

[kmosiman]

 

42 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The Everstorm has now passed over and regrown the portion of spiritweb that allows the bond to occur in these listeners, and so for the first time they can hear the rhythms, but they don't know how to attune them and thus don't speak to them. They also have no spren to press them into safemode, so I think these newly freed Parshmen are what a listener looks like with no bond at all (I wonder if a Parshendi seeing them would think of them as babies grown large?). 

I think there is some support for the unbonded form of the Listeners. When Eshonai met with her mother, she speaks of it being Eshonai's (Venli's)  sister's day of first transformation (her mother has some form of dementia). I assume that this is the transition from childhood to adulthood. If this is that case the listeners are still in their child state.

Have this group been through a Highstorm? 

If I remember correctly, the Everstorm blew the opposite direction of a normal Highstorm; so it would have crossed the ocean and looped back to Shinovar. Alethkar would have been hit with the Highstorm first and the Everstorm second; so these Listeners would have been healed by the Everstorm, but not exposed to a Highstorm to pick up a new spren. It should be very interesting to see what happens to them when they meet a Highstorm. 

[Steeldancer]

Interesting thought. I'm not sure I like the whole defensive thing, I like my idea that the spren just fail to attach, and they revert to dullform. Everything else, I like. 

[Wreith]

2 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Interesting thought. I'm not sure I like the whole defensive thing, I like my idea that the spren just fail to attach, and they revert to dullform. Everything else, I like. 

I thought it was stated somewhere in Eshonai's story that Slaveform had no bond and that distinguished it from Dullform that had an incorrect bond. I may be wrong.

 

10 minutes ago, kmosiman said:

If I remember correctly, the Everstorm blew the opposite direction of a normal Highstorm; so it would have crossed the ocean and looped back to Shinovar. Alethkar would have been hit with the Highstorm first and the Everstorm second; so these Listeners would have been healed by the Everstorm, but not exposed to a Highstorm to pick up a new spren. It should be very interesting to see what happens to them when they meet a Highstorm.

I had this thought also. It would fit well with what the stormfather tells Dalinar during the battle at the end of WoR

Quote

I am that which brings Light and Darkness

 

[Calderis]

8 minutes ago, kmosiman said:

I think there is some support for the unbonded form of the Listeners. When Eshonai met with her mother, she speaks of it being Eshonai's (Venli's)  sister's day of first transformation (her mother has some form of dementia). I assume that this is the transition from childhood to adulthood. If this is that case the listeners are still in their child state.

I vaguely remembered this, and it was the reason for my "babies grown large"  comment. I suppose babies is the wrong word as it's probably more an adolescent thing with a coming of age ceremony. 

10 minutes ago, kmosiman said:

Have this group been through a Highstorm?

No they haven't. The only listeners exposed to both so far would have been the stormform Parshendi, or any random ones east of the Shattered Plains, which I can't imagine there being many. 

[bo.montier]

12 minutes ago, kmosiman said:

 

I think there is some support for the unbonded form of the Listeners. When Eshonai met with her mother, she speaks of it being Eshonai's (Venli's)  sister's day of first transformation (her mother has some form of dementia). I assume that this is the transition from childhood to adulthood. If this is that case the listeners are still in their child state.

Have this group been through a Highstorm? 

If I remember correctly, the Everstorm blew the opposite direction of a normal Highstorm; so it would have crossed the ocean and looped back to Shinovar. Alethkar would have been hit with the Highstorm first and the Everstorm second; so these Listeners would have been healed by the Everstorm, but not exposed to a Highstorm to pick up a new spren. It should be very interesting to see what happens to them when they meet a Highstorm. 

My reading is that after the everstorm returned a variety of forms to the parshmen, which would mean they had bonded different types of spren. There were reports of glowing red eyes in some towns Kaladin had been through, yes?

I don't think the Highstorm is required for that first transformation during the everstorm, but if they want to change AGAIN they'll have to do it the old fashioned way.
Speculation in this next part:
Of course, maybe the everstorm FORCES additional changes each time it passes. I mean, imagine that it forces the change from parshman to "random other form." For most this first form seems to be relatively innocuous, like warform or work form, but for some it is stormform. The next time around it forces a new change, and then again, bringing more and more voidforms as it goes until all that is left of the parshmen is voidbringers of one flavor or another....

[Yata]

I believe the Everstorm could not turn Parshmen into Form of Power directly. So if a Parshmen is exposed to the Everstorm, he would be healed.

Now that his Spiritweb is restored, the Everstorm could turn them into Forms of Power.

The only issue is now, the Healed-Parshman could resist Better to external influence (like someone from the Last Legion) so many will not turn, except if the Healing connected them a bit more to Odium

[Calderis]

26 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

My reading is that after the everstorm returned a variety of forms to the parshmen, which would mean they had bonded different types of spren. There were reports of glowing red eyes in some towns Kaladin had been through, yes?

We have only seen one form so far, and the reports were of "red lights" that when Kaladin asked about eyes they said "maybe?" 

We have no proof that there have been multiple forms. 

[bo.montier]

Just now, Calderis said:

We have only seen one form so far, and the reports were of "red lights" that when Kaladin asked about eyes they said "maybe?" 

We have no proof that there have been multiple forms. 

Yeah, I may be reading more than what's there. Has their new form been defined? Is it Warform or workform? It certainly seems more intelligent than dullform, comparing those we've seen with Rlain while he was in dullform.

[Calderis]

14 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

Yeah, I may be reading more than what's there. Has their new form been defined? Is it Warform or workform? It certainly seems more intelligent than dullform, comparing those we've seen with Rlain while he was in dullform.

Nope. And I'm convinced for now that it is not a form at all. It is an unbonded form of whole Parshendi. 

It's speculation for now, but I want to now what Parshendi children look like. If this is what Parshendi look like before their "day of first transformation" then it's answered.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Calderis

[bo.montier]

Just now, Calderis said:

Nope. And I'm convinced for now that it is not a form at all. It is an in bonded of whole Parshendi. 

It's speculation for now, but I want to now what Parshendi children look like. If this is what Parshendi look like before their "day of first transformation" then it's answered.

I guess I figured that was what Dullform was. It just doesn't seem to have a reason to exist otherwise.

[Calderis]

5 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

I guess I figured that was what Dullform was. It just doesn't seem to have a reason to exist otherwise.

And I don't believe so. I mean the listeners have to bond with a spren to achieve a form. Unless they can bond in the womb, why would they be born with a spren? And if they do bond in the womb, they should accidentally discover new forms with new births on occasion. 

Slaveforms are born as they are because both parents lack the portion of their spiritweb to pass on to the child. Their offspring is born in the same broken state they are. The Parshendi though? I'm not so sure. 

My only real question then is, did they maintain dullform for as long as they did out of fear and a need to remain hidden? 

[bo.montier]

Just now, Calderis said:

My only real question then is, did they maintain dullform for as long as they did out of fear and a need to remain hidden? 

Could be, I seem to remember Eshonai saying that they, at one point, only knew dullform and mateform, and that eventually research led them to...I think Workform was the first one they found. The Five were first dullform then workform, I think (I don't have the physical book and kindle is hard for me to search through, which is why I'm not going and looking this up and am just going off of memory).

It would, then, go like this. They maintain dullform to avoid being killed, eventually it becomes habit. After a LONG period of time, someone wonders why there aren't more forms available and begins the laborious efforts to discover the new ones.
So the question, put another way, why would they adopt dullform at all if their un-bonded self is smarter than dullform. Why would they go through the first transformation if it only led to dullform? Is that what you're getting at? 

(by the way, mateform intrigues me. It seems like the Parshmen didn't need mateform to continue their line, why, then, does it exist?)

[Calderis]

20 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

Why would they go through the first transformation if it only led to dullform? Is that what you're getting at? 

Exactly what I was getting at. 

20 minutes ago, bo.montier said:

(by the way, mateform intrigues me. It seems like the Parshmen didn't need mateform to continue their line, why, then, does it exist?)

Listeners are primarily asexual. Many forms literally incapable of mating. 

While some forms, like dullform, are capable I think most forms are uninterested. So Mateform provides the actual drive to reproduce that the other forms lack. 

[kmosiman]

Quote

“I have spent my entire life living in a fog,” the parshman yelled at him. “Every day knowing I should say something, do something to stop this! Every night clutching my daughter, wondering why the world seems to move around us in the light—while we are trapped in shadows. They sold her mother. Sold her. Because she had birthed a healthy child, which made her good breeding stock.

I had wondered about parshmen breeding before this, but it seems to be answered here. 

I assume the parshmen were comanded to breed (or they bred on their own but infrequently) from time to time, which is why they didn't die out. A parshman that had born children would be valued above the others.

If they had more children, then they would probably be more widespread. This slow rate of reproduction would explain why they were a resource and not a burden.

Edited October 11, 2017 by kmosiman
wrong word in sentence

[Calderis]

@kmosiman I think that the listeners in general are less fertile than humans.

In one of Eshonai's interludes, she talks about how a pair will assume Mateform and sequester themselves together for a year and hope for a child. 

If you were in a state that had you amped up hormonally like a teenager and sequestered with a member of the opposite sex that you were already in a committed relationship, and the goal was to have a child... After a year I'm pretty sure you'd start to question if there were fertility issues at play. 

If this is normal for listeners, I imagine a Parshmen that bred successfully would be worth quite a bit of money. 

[ParadoxicalZen]

Didn't Syl also mention what had been tweaked with...? A modification to their Identity and Connection, perhaps their Connection to their Identity?

I also seem to recall Kaladin mention there was a lack of one of the skin tones on these Parshfolk that the Parshendi normally have, the ashy black streaks IIRC. I definitely in agreement that you may be on to something here, C! Have an upvote