[OB] Dalinar's Curse/Boon

[Yata]

47 minutes ago, Connect said:

Could dalinars curse be something to do with the thrill? I dont think he used to get sick when he used it. Now he sees the way he mutilates people on the battle field. Seems like a fitting opposite too. No longer has to live with the memories of a dead wife, but has to experience battle without the mental protection of the thrill. Also he rejected the thrill just before didnt he?Maybe that has somethkng to do with evi coming back as well. 

The nauseate feel from the Thrill is something really recent while Dalinar goes to the Nightwatcher years before.

That feeling is mostly caused by his NahEl Bond that protects him from the Unmades' influence

 

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Salkara said:

Got it. Chapter 17, page 266 of the Kindle version.

Question for me is whether the healing is 100% serialized. Does it focus on healing each particles in order, or would it heal multiple parts of the same wounds simultaneously?

And regardless of "worst wounds first" it is not sequential. 

It fixes the things that make you dead first yes, but it also splits focus, as shown by the split between Shallan's drunkenness, and her hand. Neither of which were fully healed in the morning 

[Blacksmithki]

9 hours ago, Connect said:

Could dalinars curse be something to do with the thrill? I dont think he used to get sick when he used it. Now he sees the way he mutilates people on the battle field. Seems like a fitting opposite too. No longer has to live with the memories of a dead wife, but has to experience battle without the mental protection of the thrill. Also he rejected the thrill just before didnt he?Maybe that has somethkng to do with evi coming back as well. 

Based on the fact that the thrill comes from some entity, probably an unmade, and Dalinar sees it as profoundly wrong as of the pre release chapters, that wouldn't be much of a curse, honestly it's more of a boon.

[lyrei]

Dalinar asked to have his pain taken away so maybe the boon was forgetting evi but after such a long time/ navani he wouldn't feel the pain anymore so he started remembering and the curse we didn't see yet

[Asrael]

Im definitely getting the vibe from these new chapters that Dalinar's boon/curse may not be what he thought they were... Which is utterly thrilling... I love this book so much O.O

[shadowwisp]

29 minutes ago, lyrei said:

Dalinar asked to have his pain taken away so maybe the boon was forgetting evi but after such a long time/ navani he wouldn't feel the pain anymore so he started remembering and the curse we didn't see yet

I didn't come up with this theory but someone suspected that the pain Fabrial is the key.

The timing makes sense, and it was mentioned in the same paragraph as the recovered memories. Not to mention that in WoR, we nearly had an entire page dedicated to a drawing of it. 

Edited October 17, 2017 by shadowwisp

[The Invested Beard]

12 hours ago, Connect said:

Could dalinars curse be something to do with the thrill? I dont think he used to get sick when he used it. Now he sees the way he mutilates people on the battle field. Seems like a fitting opposite too. No longer has to live with the memories of a dead wife, but has to experience battle without the mental protection of the thrill. Also he rejected the thrill just before didnt he?Maybe that has somethkng to do with evi coming back as well. 

Yeah I've been thinking maybe part of what he asked was to somehow be free of the Thrill because it was responsible in some way for Evi's death.

[frozndevl]

Maybe it's not the pain component of the Fabrial, maybe it's the watch. Without going back and looking at all of the passages, it seems to me that there are more mentions of it as a watch than a bandaid (bad comparison I know). Maybe instead of the watch just being a timer, it is somehow tapping into Time and thereby breaking something the Nightwatcher d.

[Mulk]

Assuming Dalinar's boon was to forget the pain - what if marriage to Navani relieves some of the pain of losing Evi and thus suspends at least a portion of her memory from the Nightwatcher's curse as it is no longer applicable?

I say this for this reason: I've a friend who lost his long time wife a while ago, and he misses her terribly, longs to see her again.  He called me a couple of nights ago and told me there is a possible new woman in his life.  I hadn't heard him laugh like that since before his wife passed.  He's finally starting to act and behave like a man who isn't bereft of much of his life.  He's young enough he still has a couple of decades or so to live most likely and...well, the connection made sense to me.

[The Invested Beard]

1 minute ago, Mulk said:

Assuming Dalinar's boon was to forget the pain - what if marriage to Navani relieves some of the pain of losing Evi and thus suspends at least a portion of her memory from the Nightwatcher's curse as it is no longer applicable?

I say this for this reason: I've a friend who lost his long time wife a while ago, and he misses her terribly, longs to see her again.  He called me a couple of nights ago and told me there is a possible new woman in his life.  I hadn't heard him laugh like that since before his wife passed.  He's finally starting to act and behave like a man who isn't bereft of much of his life.  He's young enough he still has a couple of decades or so to live most likely and...well, the connection made sense to me.

It's possible, however I can't see hundreds of other cases never having a change in their life that counteracted what they asked the NW for. If what you propose were the cause, there would be at least a couple of others whose boon/curse got better.

[Mulk]

4 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

It's possible, however I can't see hundreds of other cases never having a change in their life that counteracted what they asked the NW for. If what you propose were the cause, there would be at least a couple of others whose boon/curse got better.

I completely agree.  But a couple of others amongst all of the other hundreds or thousands who go there...well, it's not hard at all to see how one or two might slip through.

I'm not saying it's likely. It just occurred to me as a possibility.

[ChazBolt]

I happen to think his boon was making the memories go away. Something dramatic like Dalinar breaking down and screaming "MAKE IT ALL GO AWAY!"

This would mean we still dont know the curse. 

As for why is it coming back? im in the idea camp that it has something to do with fabrials. As much as Navani knows, she really doesnt know about the powers she is messing with. 

[The One Who Connects]

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

16 hours ago, Salkara said:

18 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

Can't find the chapter, but Wayne and "spoiled tomato" in bands of mourning, it's in series not parallel.

Question for me is whether the healing is 100% serialized. Does it focus on healing each particles in order, or would it heal multiple parts of the same wounds simultaneously?

And regardless of "worst wounds first" it is not sequential. 

It fixes the things that make you dead first yes, but it also splits focus, as shown by the split between Shallan's drunkenness, and her hand. Neither of which were fully healed in the morning 

I'd like to throw in the concept of "Perception" again. Wayne has had his fair share of injuries, and probably knows full-well what injuries are "higher priority" by now. Could it be as simple as his healing heals the graver wounds first because he perceives them as needing to be healed first?

It's not that different from Kaladin preventing his brands from healing. Wayne prevents it from healing the non-serious injuries because, at the time, he's willing to live with the minor injuries.

Does this potential explanation satisfy the parties involved in this discussion?

[Calderis]

47 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'd like to throw in the concept of "Perception" again. Wayne has had his fair share of injuries, and probably knows full-well what injuries are "higher priority" by now. Could it be as simple as his healing heals the graver wounds first because he perceives them as needing to be healed first?

It's not that different from Kaladin preventing his brands from healing. Wayne prevents it from healing the non-serious injuries because, at the time, he's willing to live with the minor injuries.

Does this potential explanation satisfy the parties involved in this discussion?

Yes. And it still in my mind does nothing to legitimize Stormlight as healing Dalinar's memories. 

Especially after today's chapters. The Stormfather says that Dalinar's healing has nothing to do with the bond. Infusing with Stormlight comes from the bond. 

[Blacksmithki]

11 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yes. And it still in my mind does nothing to legitimize Stormlight as healing Dalinar's memories. 

Especially after today's chapters. The Stormfather says that Dalinar's healing has nothing to do with the bond. Infusing with Stormlight comes from the bond. 

At this point I think these chapters destroyed any theories we have, both the main ones were effects of either stormlight or his resonance, or that despite all evidence against, the wording of his curse/boon matters.

[Calderis]

25 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said:

At this point I think these chapters destroyed any theories we have, both the main ones were effects of either stormlight or his resonance, or that despite all evidence against, the wording of his curse/boon matters.

It killed the part of the fabrial theory that put the effect on Dalinar's resonance. 

It didn't kill the idea that two fabrials in the same device could produce a resonance independently. Which I like the possibility they can, but not necessarily as what healed him. 

I think either the memory loss was conditional, or the Nightwatcher intervened and removed her gifts directly, as again, Urithiru is literally right next to the valley 

[CodeMnke]

Just some thoughts I had. I still cant get into any of the current theory camps regarding the curse and boon. Admittedly the closest one I come to is the "wife" changing from Evi to Navani but there are things that just do not "fit" to me.

Lets assume for a moment that either the curse or the boon (doesn't really matter which one it was) is "forget his wife". 

1. Lets just assume for a moment that marrying Navani did make her fall under the curse/boon to be forgotten. Ok I can maybe go with that. However we have no evidence that is happening at all. Instead we see him remembering Evi. Who is STILL his dead wife. Marrying Navanni didn't suddenly make Evi's status change. 
2. By all evidence he completely forgot Evi immediately, not slowly (though there inst HARD evidence here, and he may have forgotten that he forgot slowly hummm...). Why wouldn't he immediately forget Navani completely.
3. Why would the memories be returning slowly? Why not all at once if the boon/curse was lifted off Evi?

Brandon ALWAYS has a reason for what happens in a certain way. There is a reason the memories are returning slowly rather than all at once. There is also timing to consider, admittedly the wedding feels like the big event that "changed" the current status, but I think we need to be looking at what else could have caused a shift, something that may be gradually affecting the characters rather than a all at once. 

 

[The Invested Beard]

1 minute ago, CodeMnke said:

Just some thoughts I had. I still cant get into any of the current theory camps regarding the curse and boon. Admittedly the closest one I come to is the "wife" changing from Evi to Navani but there are things that just do not "fit" to me.

Lets assume for a moment that either the curse or the boon (doesn't really matter which one it was) is "forget his wife". 

1. Lets just assume for a moment that marrying Navani did make her fall under the curse/boon to be forgotten. Ok I can maybe go with that. However we have no evidence that is happening at all. Instead we see him remembering Evi. Who is STILL his dead wife. Marrying Navanni didn't suddenly make Evi's status change. 
2. By all evidence he completely forgot Evi immediately, not slowly (though there inst HARD evidence here, and he may have forgotten that he forgot slowly hummm...). Why wouldn't he immediately forget Navani completely.
3. Why would the memories be returning slowly? Why not all at once if the boon/curse was lifted off Evi?

Brandon ALWAYS has a reason for what happens in a certain way. There is a reason the memories are returning slowly rather than all at once. There is also timing to consider, admittedly the wedding feels like the big event that "changed" the current status, but I think we need to be looking at what else could have caused a shift, something that may be gradually affecting the characters rather than a all at once. 

 

Heck it may even be related to the Unmade or whatever dark entity is causing the copycat murders. After all it didn't start happening until the copycats started.

Edited October 17, 2017 by The Invested Beard

[Darkness]

14 hours ago, CodeMnke said:

Just some thoughts I had. I still cant get into any of the current theory camps regarding the curse and boon. Admittedly the closest one I come to is the "wife" changing from Evi to Navani but there are things that just do not "fit" to me.

Lets assume for a moment that either the curse or the boon (doesn't really matter which one it was) is "forget his wife". 

1. Lets just assume for a moment that marrying Navani did make her fall under the curse/boon to be forgotten. Ok I can maybe go with that. However we have no evidence that is happening at all. Instead we see him remembering Evi. Who is STILL his dead wife. Marrying Navanni didn't suddenly make Evi's status change. 
2. By all evidence he completely forgot Evi immediately, not slowly (though there inst HARD evidence here, and he may have forgotten that he forgot slowly hummm...). Why wouldn't he immediately forget Navani completely.
3. Why would the memories be returning slowly? Why not all at once if the boon/curse was lifted off Evi?

Brandon ALWAYS has a reason for what happens in a certain way. There is a reason the memories are returning slowly rather than all at once. There is also timing to consider, admittedly the wedding feels like the big event that "changed" the current status, but I think we need to be looking at what else could have caused a shift, something that may be gradually affecting the characters rather than a all at once. 

 

I think the boon may have been more like, "remove the pain of losing Evi". That addresses the issues decently well.

1. I don't see any evidence suggesting Navani is involved, so I took out the 'my wife' wording.

2. He is slowly remembering Evi, which could be a result of 4 things I came up with off the top of my head: They all preserve the active state of the boon.

• The loss happened long enough ago that he can remember some details without pain coming back, but too much restoration at once would cause him pain.
• Marrying Navani has helped my first point, filling the hole in his heart enough that he can remember Evi without pain.
• The pain fabrial is preventing the pain associated with his memories (that would mean he would forget at least a little bit if the fabrial is removed)
• Advancing a Radiancy level has caused the honor investiture in him to interfere with the Cultivation influence ("I accept the authority of the heralds" is the most likely oath in my mind).

3. In tWoK and WoR I don't recall him describing Evi's loss as 'painful'. In fact, I seem to remember him remarking that it was odd that he felt no pain when he heard people talk about her.

[ShinyCheetah]

I think we are focusing way too much on Evi herself. Most of us assume that Dalinar wanted his pain about her death taken away, don't we? Well, this chapter he confirmed again that he didn't even really love her. We had that other Blackthorn memory where he kills a woman and a child (probably). He's also used to the brutality of war. I really wonder what exactly it was that he wanted to forget. What could he have done that would make the Blackthorn go such extremes because he just can't deal with it on his own?

And about why his memories are returning: while reading the chapter, I started wondering if maybe this is not really about Dalinar at all, but something larger. Could something have happened to the Nightwatcher? It would be really interesting to know if there's anyone with a boon/curse around who does or does not experience the same thing: slowly losing their boon/curse (maybe a Taravangian pov? ^^).

I love this ^^ Brandon Sanderson is so good at making us speculate and guess without leaving us completely in the dark without proper clues... Though I guess the answer to my first question - what exactly made Dalinar go to the Nightwatcher - will be left to the very end of the book, like the Shallan-killed-her-mother-because-she-wanted-to-kill-her reveal in WoR.

Edited October 18, 2017 by ShinyCheetah

[CodeMnke]

@ShinyCheetah

Not sure i agree that he didnt love Evi (its certainly possible). All we know is that he didnt love her at first. Not surprising since it was an arranged marriage.

 

In chapter 4 where he is talking to Navani, Dalinar says this:

“Navani, maybe I did grow to love her. I can’t remember. Not one moment of intimacy, not one fight, not a single word she ever said to me. She’s gone, leaving debris that mars my memory. I can’t remember how she died. That one gets to me, because there are parts of that day I know I should remember. Something about a city in rebellion against my brother, and my wife being taken hostage?”

That… and a long march alone, accompanied only by hatred and the Thrill. He remembered those emotions vividly. He’d brought vengeance to those who had taken his wife from him.

That at least implies he cared for her,

 

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, CodeMnke said:

That at least implies he cared for her,

Not necessarily. Considering the man he was, it could have been due to simple pride that someone dared to take something that was his. 

[ShinyCheetah]

2 hours ago, CodeMnke said:

@ShinyCheetah

Not sure i agree that he didnt love Evi (its certainly possible). All we know is that he didnt love her at first. Not surprising since it was an arranged marriage.

You're right, but still... "He didn’t remember love, but he did remember attraction." - and in the same chapter about Navani: "He could vividly remember desiring her. Thinking about her, captivated by the way she talked, the things she knew, the look of her hands as she sketched—or, storms, as she did something as simple as raising a spoon to her lips. He remembered staring at her." Since this hasn't changed much over time, i'd say he was in love with Navani all the time while maybe trying to use Evi as a distraction. Is a distraction a reason to go to the Nightwatcher?

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Not necessarily. Considering the man he was, it could have been due to simple pride that someone dared to take something that was his. 

That would fit considering how Dalinar is characterized in his flashback chapters...

[Darkness]

wasn't there a part in WoR when Navani told Dalinar that he had really seemed to love Shshshsh? I think I'm correctly remembering something like that.

[FollowYourMuse]

I do not think it relates to his love or lack of for Evi. I do not see any conflict with him continuing to love someone lost to him, Navani, and also growing to love Evi. 

If it is not the Stormlight, - I am not convinced that the storm father staring it is not because of the bond, completely eliminates that possibility. Then I think it may have more to do with the watch, but I am inclined to think it has more to do with the time piece, since we know that measurements have effect on spren. We also got the first mention of time as a force.