[OB] What is up with Mraize and Ialai?

[+eveorjoy]

I guess we will find out what is up with Mraize and Ialai tomorrow.

[The Invested Beard]

51 minutes ago, eveorjoy said:

I guess we will find out what is up with Mraize and Ialai tomorrow.

OR WILL WE???? Bum bum buuuummmmmmm!

[Toaster Retribution]

25 minutes ago, The Invested Beard said:

OR WILL WE???? Bum bum buuuummmmmmm!

And so it turns out that we get three chapters of Hoid taking polls from cremlings...

[Salkara]

20 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

And so it turns out that we get three chapters of Hoid taking polls from cremlings...

More Hoid please!

[What's a Seawolf?]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

And so it turns out that we get three chapters of Hoid taking polls from cremlings...

Also known as the greatest three chapters in Cosmere history.

[Salkara]

Back to topic (somewhat?). Do we know for certain the Ghostbloods are a group of worldhoppers, or could it just a group infiltrated by at least two worldhoppers?

By that, is it possible for Ialai to be ranked higher than Mraize as a Ghostblood but not be a worldhopper?

[kari-no-sugata]

From chapter 22:

 

Quote

“Fetch him a chair,” Ialai said to Mraize.

“Yes, Brightness,” he said, his voice thick with a rural accent that bordered on Herdazian.

Ialai then looked to Shallan. “And you. Make yourself useful. There are teas warming in the side room.”

 

Did you find this bit suspicious? Ialai gives Mraize and Shallan a reason to be alone together for a fairly frivolous reason. Mraize takes forever to return a chair but Ialai never criticises him for this. Shortly after Mraize and Shallan return Ialai ends the meeting.

Ialai didn't press Adolin that hard except to throw out some vague accusations either. Her style of speech also seems a bit off to me (rather wordy)... though this is very hard to be sure on. Also, it seems that Mraize had no connection with Sadeas before but can now casually walk around with a "chicken" on his shoulder in front of Ialai without comment. Normally you'd want two guards at least as well.

So... theory time! The Ghostbloods saw an opportunity with Sadeas dead and bumped off Ialai as well. Iyatil has replaced Ialai and any "odd" explanation can be explained with "grief". Sounds far-fetched? Well, consider this: Ialai starts out with a hunting metaphor, just the sort of thing that Iyatil and Mraize go for.

If this theory is true, I suspect Mraize and Iyatil were using Adolin as a test (to see if he picks up on anything). Shallan was a bonus.

[Toaster Retribution]

24 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

From chapter 22:

Did you find this bit suspicious? Ialai gives Mraize and Shallan a reason to be alone together for a fairly frivolous reason. Mraize takes forever to return a chair but Ialai never criticises him for this. Shortly after Mraize and Shallan return Ialai ends the meeting.

Ialai didn't press Adolin that hard except to throw out some vague accusations either. Her style of speech also seems a bit off to me (rather wordy)... though this is very hard to be sure on. Also, it seems that Mraize had no connection with Sadeas before but can now casually walk around with a "chicken" on his shoulder in front of Ialai without comment. Normally you'd want two guards at least as well.

So... theory time! The Ghostbloods saw an opportunity with Sadeas dead and bumped off Ialai as well. Iyatil has replaced Ialai and any "odd" explanation can be explained with "grief". Sounds far-fetched? Well, consider this: Ialai starts out with a hunting metaphor, just the sort of thing that Iyatil and Mraize go for.

If this theory is true, I suspect Mraize and Iyatil were using Adolin as a test (to see if he picks up on anything). Shallan was a bonus.

This is a huge crackpot, and because of that, I doubt it is true. But at the same time, there is some logic to it. Although I have a hard time seeing Iyatil removing her mask, and her face wouldn't look like Ialais either, since she isn't Alethi. But they might have used another woman?

Wonder what they will do with Amaram if this is true?

[kari-no-sugata]

5 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

This is a huge crackpot, and because of that, I doubt it is true. But at the same time, there is some logic to it. Although I have a hard time seeing Iyatil removing her mask, and her face wouldn't look like Ialais either, since she isn't Alethi. But they might have used another woman?

Wonder what they will do with Amaram if this is true?

I'm not suggesting that Iyatil looks like Ialai, but that she is using a disguise. ie she's wearing a mask still, just a different kind.

I was highly sceptical about it myself until I saw the hunter analogy. That seems like a specific "tell" to me. Either way, I found the initial thing I pointed out to be quite odd - it seems way too convenient.

As for Amaram, they'll probably use him for their own ends then sacrifice him, since Iyatil wants him dead for reasons unknown.

[Toaster Retribution]

2 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'm not suggesting that Iyatil looks like Ialai, but that she is using a disguise. ie she's wearing a mask still, just a different kind.

I was highly sceptical about it myself until I saw the hunter analogy. That seems like a specific "tell" to me. Either way, I found the initial thing I pointed out to be quite odd - it seems way too convenient.

Well, I don't really subscribe to this, but I can see it as a possibility. I think you understand that it is still kind of crackpot though :-) But its "realistic crackpot" not "unrealistic crackpot".

And I love Mraize, but I'll be sad if he kills Amaram. Please don't hate on me, but I would mourn anyone of those two more than I would mourn Kaladin. 

[maxal]

4 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

From chapter 22:

Did you find this bit suspicious? Ialai gives Mraize and Shallan a reason to be alone together for a fairly frivolous reason. Mraize takes forever to return a chair but Ialai never criticises him for this. Shortly after Mraize and Shallan return Ialai ends the meeting.

Ialai didn't press Adolin that hard except to throw out some vague accusations either. Her style of speech also seems a bit off to me (rather wordy)... though this is very hard to be sure on. Also, it seems that Mraize had no connection with Sadeas before but can now casually walk around with a "chicken" on his shoulder in front of Ialai without comment. Normally you'd want two guards at least as well.

So... theory time! The Ghostbloods saw an opportunity with Sadeas dead and bumped off Ialai as well. Iyatil has replaced Ialai and any "odd" explanation can be explained with "grief". Sounds far-fetched? Well, consider this: Ialai starts out with a hunting metaphor, just the sort of thing that Iyatil and Mraize go for.

If this theory is true, I suspect Mraize and Iyatil were using Adolin as a test (to see if he picks up on anything). Shallan was a bonus.

That's pretty crack-pot, though it would explain why Ialai was so disappointing... I was expecting a massive scary villain, failing to intimidate or manipulate Adolin. It could be losing Sadeas truly shook her and she'll recover at a later time. Still, not the cunning, dangerous woman I was expecting.

Mraize is looking our for her: it made her sound like a child needing a chaperone. I did not like it. Why does he need her anyway? And I was hoping she was manipulating him... 

[kari-no-sugata]

10 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Well, I don't really subscribe to this, but I can see it as a possibility. I think you understand that it is still kind of crackpot though :-) But its "realistic crackpot" not "unrealistic crackpot".

I wouldn't call it "crackpot". Maybe "far-fetched". Crackpot would be that Ialai had been Iyatil all this time

Would you consider this to be more crackpot or less crackpot than "Mraize has a Aviar"?

 

7 hours ago, maxal said:

That's pretty crack-pot, though it would explain why Ialai was so disappointing... I was expecting a massive scary villain, failing to intimidate or manipulate Adolin. It could be losing Sadeas truly shook her and she'll recover at a later time. Still, not the cunning, dangerous woman I was expecting.

Mraize is looking our for her: it made her sound like a child needing a chaperone. I did not like it. Why does he need her anyway? And I was hoping she was manipulating him... 

Yeah, the chapter was definitely disappointing if there's nothing else going on beyond the obvious. We essentially had two chapters devoted to this - Adolin coming to Shallan for "moral support" and then the scene itself. So there was definitely "build-up" but all we really got was Amaram is confirmed to be in Urithiru (something we knew already even if the characters didn't) but that's hardly that important, and Mraize basically confirming things we (and Shallan) already knew or suspected. Actually the previous chapter was more meaningful. If this chapter doesn't have some kind of payoff later then it's rather below standard (ie weak relative to the rest of the work).

Adolin specifically came to Shallan because Ialai scares him. But Adolin handled things fine and Ialai never comes across as scary. Yet Sadeas considers her to be super dangerous and it's clear she's used to assassination and the like. Considering what the Alethi are generally like, Ialai felt... average. Adolin mentions his mother yet Ialai makes no nasty comments about her.

 

Quote

“I’m keeping an eye on that one,” he said, nodding toward the other room. Here, his voice became refined, losing the rural edge. “We have interest in her.”

What's so important about Ialai that Mraize himself has to supervise her? If all he had to do was "keep an eye on her" that should be left to others. So why does Mraize specifically have to supervise her? Why is it something only he can do?

If Ialai had mentally collapsed and become a shadow of her former self, then that might explain her not being scary or threatening but that wouldn't explain why Mraize is there by itself. According to Mraize himself, it sounds like the Ghostbloods want to play off the Voidbringers with the normal people and weaken both sides. They are not playing for small stakes. In other words, there's no way that Mraize is merely "keeping an eye on that one".

According to Mraize, Ialai isn't with the Ghostbloods. If that's really the case (and that seems reasonable) then Ialai is toast one way or the other. Mraize is perfectly fine with assassinating Jasnah. There's no way he's too afraid to kill/whatever Ialai. So I would say that either Ialai is drugged or magically manipulated or something like that. Or has been replaced. And given that Ialai started out with a hunting metaphor and that her speech patterns feel rather different to the Ialai we've seen before, I'm going to go with the idea that she's been replaced with Iyatil for now.

In which case, I'd guess that the real Ialai has been killed and tossed off the convenient mountain or is being kept alive somewhere - possibly being tortured for information as well, or for fun since apparently Mraize likes that.

 

[Toaster Retribution]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I wouldn't call it "crackpot". Maybe "far-fetched". Crackpot would be that Ialai had been Iyatil all this time

Would you consider this to be more crackpot or less crackpot than "Mraize has a Aviar"?

I don't know... you are making a very good case for this. I am a bit more onboard the "Mraize has an aviar" theory, but each time I read your arguments for this, I find it more and more likely...

[Hyarmenatan]

Mraize is being close to Ialai, because of Amaram, who was last known person in contact / controling the man, who refers to himself as Taln. Mraize wants to know secrets of the past and Realmatics which Taln could potentially know and hand over to him. We already know Ghostbloods are interested in the topic. 

[Guest]

So my theory is pretty much debunked at this point, except if Mraize lied to Shallan, but I doubt that. So, the GBs are not behind the copy murders.

All in all, I also agree that the chapter (it's Chapter 22 for later reference) seemed a bit... lackluster. I was expecting a bit more by Ialai.

Either she really was replaced by Iyatil (interesting theory by the way @kari-no-sugata), she is really grieving and not at her full capability or she's just pretending to be (Shallan even suggests this at a point).

I'm actually leaning to option 3.

While Adolin made a good case in defending Dalinar, I think Ialai never suspected him in the first place. I still think she primarily suspects Adolin.

And then she drops this:

Quote

“History is rife with examples of soldiers assuming orders when there were none,” Ialai said. “I agree that Dalinar would never knife an old friend in dark quarters. His soldiers may not be so inhibited. You want to know who did this, Adolin Kholin? Look among your own ranks. I would wager the princedom that somewhere in the Kholin army is a man who thought to do his highprince a service.”

She hints at a killing out of loyalty toward Dalinar. She deliberately chooses the group which includes Adolin - the soldiers. And she knows, that he is probably Dalinar's most capable soldier. Her husband was a Shardbearer, he probably only would have been able to be killed by a very capable soldier. Sadly, we don't know Adolin's thoughts about it. Did he panic internally? Did he not get the hint?

So why is she not accusing Adolin directly? Well, I first theorized, that she would do that, when she had something to blackmail him with. That is a bust, so I can just assume, that she really wants to find more proof first... and exploit the situation by appointing Amaram as her investigator, which, like Shallan already pointed out, puts her up as an alternative to Dalinar.

I can't really shake the feeling, that she's being vague on purpose.

Also:

Quote

“I’m terrible at this,” Adolin said softly. “I got so annoyed in there, I almost punched her. You watch, Shallan. I’ll ruin this.”

Apparently Ialai did get to Adolin somehow. Was that her goal during the conversation? Make him do something brash. Exploit his hot-headedness? Maybe it was the hint? I think, that Shallan kind of rescued him by steering the conversation to the "other murders". Sadly, Shallan didn't say something about how Adolin reacted to the hint. Maybe she didn't look for it? God damnation it, I want an Adolin PoV of this.

Conclusively, I think, that Ialai actually was trying to achieve more than it looked like at first. It all happened between the lines and not in the open. I think, that kind of game would suit Ialai.

Edited October 18, 2017 by SLNC

[kari-no-sugata]

2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I don't know... you are making a very good case for this. I am a bit more onboard the "Mraize has an aviar" theory, but each time I read your arguments for this, I find it more and more likely...

Just to be clear, I have no problems with the aviar theory, though I guess that one will require a WoB to settle unless Mraize starts boasting about the bird's origins later on to Shallan.

Anyway, glad you're warming up to my theory though I'm sure it'll be some time until we get any confirmation (positive or negative) within the book. If I turn out to be completely wrong it won't be the first time

Separately to my specific theory, do you agree with my assessment of Ialai's chances? (ie she's either dead or doomed with Mraize there)

 

2 hours ago, Hyarmenatan said:

Mraize is being close to Ialai, because of Amaram, who was last known person in contact / controling the man, who refers to himself as Taln. Mraize wants to know secrets of the past and Realmatics which Taln could potentially know and hand over to him. We already know Ghostbloods are interested in the topic. 

I'm not sure Mraize knows who Taln really is but since Taln blocked Iyatil's attempts to assassinate Amaram I'm sure they're going to take some kind of interest. Either way, Amaram is "competition" to the Ghostbloods but I wonder who is going to get to him first? (The Ghostbloods, Shallan, Kaladin, Dalinar's side or someone else?) 

btw, it seemed a bit unnecessary to me for Ialai to mention Amaram. While reveal this bit of info in advance? (If anything it puts pressure on Amaram since he's been officially outed before he's ready... That would benefit the Ghostbloods but does that benefit Ialai in any way?)

 

57 minutes ago, SLNC said:

Apparently Ialai did get to Adolin somehow. Was that her goal during the conversation? Make him do something brash. Exploit his hot-headedness? Maybe it was the hint? I think, that Shallan kind of rescued him by steering the conversation to the "other murders". Sadly, Shallan didn't say something about how Adolin reacted to the hint. Maybe she didn't look for it? God damnation it, I want an Adolin PoV of this.

Conclusively, I think, that Ialai actually was trying to achieve more than it looked like at first. It all happened between the lines and not in the open. I think, that kind of game would suit Ialai.

Adolin killed Sadeas because he was a "real and present danger" to his family who would not give up. Adolin was angry at Ialai for verbally attacking/insulting Dalinar directly or indirectly. Perhaps his "shame" at being the one to actually kill Sadeas added to his emotions (quite likely given the previous chapter).

It seemed to me that Ialai first tried to imply that Sadeas was murdered "under orders" then backed down to suggesting it might have been by someone in Dalinar's camp taking the initiative based on something Dalinar said. I can't see anything much deeper than that. It's not like Ialai is addressing a crowd either.

[Toaster Retribution]

5 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Separately to my specific theory, do you agree with my assessment of Ialai's chances? (ie she's either dead or doomed with Mraize there)

That is also hard to tell, since we don't know exactly why Mraize is interested in her. But I do think that Mraize is far more powerful than Ialai, and that he can use her or kill her if he wishes too. So yes, if Mraize wants Ialai to be either dead or doomed, she will be. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It seemed to me that Ialai first tried to imply that Sadeas was murdered "under orders" then backed down to suggesting it might have been by someone in Dalinar's camp taking the initiative based on something Dalinar said

How do you figure that? Why "under orders"? They were just talking about a possbile motive on Dalinar's side, which is given considering the Battle of the Tower.

[kari-no-sugata]

7 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

That is also hard to tell, since we don't know exactly why Mraize is interested in her. But I do think that Mraize is far more powerful than Ialai, and that he can use her or kill her if he wishes too. So yes, if Mraize wants Ialai to be either dead or doomed, she will be. 

It seems likely that Mraize considers her to be a random unstable element, so simply "suppressing" her would give him a small advantage but probably not worth him spending too much time on. If this is the real Ialai then I suspect he's using her to some degree for now and will then discard her in a way that maximises the gains for himself - eg tries to engineer Dalinar's downfall with her death, or something.

 

6 hours ago, SLNC said:

How do you figure that? Why "under orders"? They were just talking about a possbile motive on Dalinar's side, which is given considering the Battle of the Tower.

 

This bit (with a few lines removed in between):

Quote

The implication of the conversation seemed clear to Shallan. Why have you returned to the scene of the kill, Kholin?

“Of course you are,” Ialai said. “The other highprinces are now too afraid to stand up to you.”

She's suggesting that Sadeas's murder is something that Dalinar intended/caused and that Adolin knows this - she's accusing Dalinar of ruling through murder and fear of murder. She's almost going as far as suggesting "are you here to kill me as well?"

Then compare this to the end:

Quote

“History is rife with examples of soldiers assuming orders when there were none,” Ialai said. “I agree that Dalinar would never knife an old friend in dark quarters. His soldiers may not be so inhibited. You want to know who did this, Adolin Kholin? Look among your own ranks. I would wager the princedom that somewhere in the Kholin army is a man who thought to do his highprince a service.”

“And the other murders?” Shallan said.

“I do not know the mind of this person,” Ialai said. “Maybe they have a taste for it now? In any case, I think we can agree this meeting serves no further purpose.” She stood up. “Good day, Adolin Kholin. I hope you will share what you discover with me, so that my own investigator can be better informed.”

The gap between the two seems fairly large, though subtle.

Edited October 18, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[maxal]

11 hours ago, SLNC said:

So my theory is pretty much debunked at this point, except if Mraize lied to Shallan, but I doubt that. So, the GBs are not behind the copy murders.

Well for what it is worth, I liked your theory. I have no idea where the story is going, but having the Ghostblood and Ialai being responsible for the copycat murders increased the tension for Adolin. Now it is some supernatural entity, so it tempers down my excitement some. Maybe it'll turn out great, but I wanted Adolin killing Sadeas having consequences for himself, not it triggering some ancient evil spirit.

11 hours ago, SLNC said:

All in all, I also agree that the chapter (it's Chapter 22 for later reference) seemed a bit... lackluster. I was expecting a bit more by Ialai.

Either she really was replaced by Iyatil (interesting theory by the way @kari-no-sugata), she is really grieving and not at her full capability or she's just pretending to be (Shallan even suggests this at a point).

I'm actually leaning to option 3.

While Adolin made a good case in defending Dalinar, I think Ialai never suspected him in the first place. I still think she primarily suspects Adolin.

There are quite a few of us who expected more out of Ialai, so let's keep our hopes high and believe she will rise up to her reputation within future chapters. I am not sure which option I personally support: I may sit on the fence for this one. I am tempted to say she is really grieving: it would be natural, but it makes her a less magnificent villain unless she uses her pain to get revenge. Option 1 has merit, but it seems a bit convoluted at this point in time. Option 3 is also plausible, she may have been trying to extract a given reaction out of Adolin, trying to lure him into a false sense of security. I do not believe the most cunning woman in Alethkar truly believed Dalinar is behind the murder: I think she just dropped it to see how Adolin would react. He reacted fast, with fire and intensity, he snapped rapidly, but what Shallan thinks was the best reaction perhaps wasn't... I have been thinking about it some more and it seems to me Adolin reacted... well... hastily. Ialai wasn't really dropping any accusations, not formally, so either Adolin's reaction was the right come-back and allowed him to take control of the conversation or it actually gave him away by how prompt he was to defend his father.

I do agree Ialai likely suspected Adolin from the start. It was my impression too when I read the scene. I never thought she was accusing Dalinar... Adolin was the uncaged whitespine, so I definitely think the metaphor was meant for him. Of course, Ialai doesn't know about Adolin starring at a caged whitespine and then, later on as he fought the 4 on 1 duel, thinking "this whitespine" (meaning himself) was not yet caged, but Brandon does. The metaphor wasn't phrased in a way Adolin would think it incriminates him, but Brandon choosing it could mean he wants us to draw these conclusions.

12 hours ago, SLNC said:

She hints at a killing out of loyalty toward Dalinar. She deliberately chooses the group which includes Adolin - the soldiers. And she knows, that he is probably Dalinar's most capable soldier. Her husband was a Shardbearer, he probably only would have been able to be killed by a very capable soldier. Sadly, we don't know Adolin's thoughts about it. Did he panic internally? Did he not get the hint?

So why is she not accusing Adolin directly? Well, I first theorized, that she would do that, when she had something to blackmail him with. That is a bust, so I can just assume, that she really wants to find more proof first... and exploit the situation by appointing Amaram as her investigator, which, like Shallan already pointed out, puts her up as an alternative to Dalinar.

I can't really shake the feeling, that she's being vague on purpose.

I agree she is being vague likely on purpose. The meeting was to gauge Adolin, to evaluate him, to weight in her suspicions. She can't know it is him, but if she is cunning she might have catch a clue or not. She also seemed very distressed. 

I also agree thinking a regular soldier would have the balls to attack a Shardbearer is really far-fetched. Either she thinks it is Adolin himself or Bridge 4 as they are squires though she might not know this or know what it means. It wouldn't take a personal investigator to learn the only other people being on the same level as Sadeas were the exploration teams comprised of Bridge 4 and led by Adolin...

I so want Adolin's thoughts.... 

Why no direct accusations? Because he has no proofs. Reveling her game this early would undermined her chances of snaring Adolin. She needs to get more proofs, she needs to built a case then she can accuse him or attack him or whatever, but it better be worth it 

I do think she is vague on purpose, I got the same feeling.

12 hours ago, SLNC said:

Apparently Ialai did get to Adolin somehow. Was that her goal during the conversation? Make him do something brash. Exploit his hot-headedness? Maybe it was the hint? I think, that Shallan kind of rescued him by steering the conversation to the "other murders". Sadly, Shallan didn't say something about how Adolin reacted to the hint. Maybe she didn't look for it? God damnation it, I want an Adolin PoV of this.

Conclusively, I think, that Ialai actually was trying to achieve more than it looked like at first. It all happened between the lines and not in the open. I think, that kind of game would suit Ialai.

Of course she got to him: he snapped back at her. Adolin doesn't snap nor wear his anger and his fiery cloak unless provoked. He reacted, hence she knows she hit something sensitive. If he had nothing to reproach to the Kholin princedom, then Adolin wouldn't have needed to throw in his retort. He was overly defensive, too defensive when to avoid suspicion, he should have calmly kept on playing her game and ignore her bait.

Shallan missed it because she was too concentrated on herself and Mraize.

I hope she will not disappoint.

10 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I'm not sure Mraize knows who Taln really is but since Taln blocked Iyatil's attempts to assassinate Amaram I'm sure they're going to take some kind of interest. Either way, Amaram is "competition" to the Ghostbloods but I wonder who is going to get to him first? (The Ghostbloods, Shallan, Kaladin, Dalinar's side or someone else?) 

btw, it seemed a bit unnecessary to me for Ialai to mention Amaram. While reveal this bit of info in advance? (If anything it puts pressure on Amaram since he's been officially outed before he's ready... That would benefit the Ghostbloods but does that benefit Ialai in any way?)

Why mentioning Amaram? Because she is laying down her cards. She knows about the accusation Dalinar made against him. Now she is bringing him into the equation. She might use young Adolin's guilt to exonerate Amaram.

10 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

Adolin killed Sadeas because he was a "real and present danger" to his family who would not give up. Adolin was angry at Ialai for verbally attacking/insulting Dalinar directly or indirectly. Perhaps his "shame" at being the one to actually kill Sadeas added to his emotions (quite likely given the previous chapter).

It seemed to me that Ialai first tried to imply that Sadeas was murdered "under orders" then backed down to suggesting it might have been by someone in Dalinar's camp taking the initiative based on something Dalinar said. I can't see anything much deeper than that. It's not like Ialai is addressing a crowd either.

I am currently thinking she was fishing for a reaction from Adolin: she knows he is hotheaded, brash and passionate. She tried to get him to react in order to get additional clues and it worked.

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

It seems likely that Mraize considers her to be a random unstable element, so simply "suppressing" her would give him a small advantage but probably not worth him spending too much time on. If this is the real Ialai then I suspect he's using her to some degree for now and will then discard her in a way that maximises the gains for himself - eg tries to engineer Dalinar's downfall with her death, or something.

I am thinking Mraize appreciates the trouble the Sadeas are causing within Dalinar-land. He can't control the city if Dalinar controls it, so anyone undermining Dalinar is his ally.

2 hours ago, kari-no-sugata said:

She's suggesting that Sadeas's murder is something that Dalinar intended/caused and that Adolin knows this - she's accusing Dalinar of ruling through murder and fear of murder. She's almost going as far as suggesting "are you here to kill me as well?"

When I read this passage, I thought she was accusing Adolin. I thought the "you" meant Adolin himself. She later acknowledges the murder likely was the act of a rogue soldier, she is too smart not to have come to those conclusions herself. I'm pretty sure she suspects Adolin and her entire tirade it meant for him. It was never meant for Dalinar. 

This is a mistake I believe the characters might have been making: thinking it is all about Dalinar, thinking the Sadeas's endgame was to kill Dalinar. Indications we currently have indicate it was Adolin they were trying to remove. I mean, let's look at it: Dalinar is an old man who lost all tastes for war. He will never be the Blackthorn again and if he retains influence, it is because of his past, but the more he stays away from the fight, the more he is likely to lose it. On the other hand, Adolin is the quick rising star of house Kholin. Sadeas witnessed him winning an impossible fight and saw him display cleverness he never even suspected he had: he later fears the son might grow into an opponent as formidable as his father once was. Right after, he thinks to himself he never really wanted the Blackthorn to come back, he missed his old friend, but not what he was.

I find it too easy to conclude Torol Sadeas feared Adolin more than he feared Dalinar and it was him the Sadeas wanted to remove. I mean, what's the point of removing Dalinar if he is to be replaced by young Adolin rapidly growing into a force to be reckoned with? Why changed an old down on the sliding slope man by a younger vigorous horribly skilled one?

Oh and on the smaller note, she refers to Adolin as Adolin Kholin. His full name. 

[kari-no-sugata]

9 hours ago, maxal said:

I so want Adolin's thoughts.... 

I'm sure we'll get some more before the end of Part 1.

 

Quote

Why no direct accusations? Because he has no proofs. Reveling her game this early would undermined her chances of snaring Adolin. She needs to get more proofs, she needs to built a case then she can accuse him or attack him or whatever, but it better be worth it 

I do think she is vague on purpose, I got the same feeling.

Shallan notes that Ialai is using "courtly language". Dalinar in his chapter notes that he is so used to such things that he's not used to more plain speaking (possibly hinting that Ialai isn't either).

 

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Of course she got to him: he snapped back at her. Adolin doesn't snap nor wear his anger and his fiery cloak unless provoked. He reacted, hence she knows she hit something sensitive. If he had nothing to reproach to the Kholin princedom, then Adolin wouldn't have needed to throw in his retort. He was overly defensive, too defensive when to avoid suspicion, he should have calmly kept on playing her game and ignore her bait.

Shallan missed it because she was too concentrated on herself and Mraize.

I hope she will not disappoint.

Unless Ialai has some real evidence I think her only real hope is to get Adolin to publicly admit that he threatened to kill Sadeas previously (in WoR). If she can achieve that then some of Adolin's words could be used against him - particularly when Adolin used logic to argue against the timing of Sadeas's death (if the Kholins had been behind it). I'm not sure if Ialai knows that Adolin threatened to kill Sadeas though - Sadeas's reaction was quite relaxed at the time and I doubt he felt threatened, so he might not have mentioned it to Ialai. We'll see.

By themselves I don't see anything dangerous with what Adolin said. Ialai could try to spin it but without something substantial to back it up then it would look weak and desperate.

 

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Why mentioning Amaram? Because she is laying down her cards. She knows about the accusation Dalinar made against him. Now she is bringing him into the equation. She might use young Adolin's guilt to exonerate Amaram.

But why spoil the surprise? That gives the Kholins more time to prepare.

Actually, I thought of one possible reason: from Adolin and Shallan's reaction she would know that they didn't know about Amaram. She basically says that Amaram is in hiding for now. If there's an assassination attempt on Amaram now then it would become easy to blame the Kholins due to the timing - eg, Amaram was safe for 10 days but just after she tells Adolin about it there's an assassination (attempt). If this is the real Ialai then I doubt it would be a real assassination attempt because she would want Amaram to live. But the Ghostbloods might aim to actually kill Amaram for real and use that to take down Dalinar.

 

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I am thinking Mraize appreciates the trouble the Sadeas are causing within Dalinar-land. He can't control the city if Dalinar controls it, so anyone undermining Dalinar is his ally.

That doesn't require Mraize to babysit Ialai though. He obviously has plans.

 

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When I read this passage, I thought she was accusing Adolin. I thought the "you" meant Adolin himself. She later acknowledges the murder likely was the act of a rogue soldier, she is too smart not to have come to those conclusions herself. I'm pretty sure she suspects Adolin and her entire tirade it meant for him. It was never meant for Dalinar. 

This is a mistake I believe the characters might have been making: thinking it is all about Dalinar, thinking the Sadeas's endgame was to kill Dalinar. Indications we currently have indicate it was Adolin they were trying to remove. I mean, let's look at it: Dalinar is an old man who lost all tastes for war. He will never be the Blackthorn again and if he retains influence, it is because of his past, but the more he stays away from the fight, the more he is likely to lose it. On the other hand, Adolin is the quick rising star of house Kholin. Sadeas witnessed him winning an impossible fight and saw him display cleverness he never even suspected he had: he later fears the son might grow into an opponent as formidable as his father once was. Right after, he thinks to himself he never really wanted the Blackthorn to come back, he missed his old friend, but not what he was.

I find it too easy to conclude Torol Sadeas feared Adolin more than he feared Dalinar and it was him the Sadeas wanted to remove. I mean, what's the point of removing Dalinar if he is to be replaced by young Adolin rapidly growing into a force to be reckoned with? Why changed an old down on the sliding slope man by a younger vigorous horribly skilled one?

I think this is unlikely. Sadeas was very worried about the political nature of Adolin's fight - he felt that Dalinar had outmanoeuvred him (though it was actually Shallan). Yes he was worried about Adolin too but given that Sadeas is supposedly the superior tactician it would be extremely galling to be out-thought by the "caveman" Dalinar. Also, the first attack made after that part is directly on Dalinar and Navani, not Adolin. And if Sadeas was that worried about Adolin's physical prowess he wouldn't have gone out of his way to provoke him in Urithiru (unless he has a death wish). I think Sadeas was worried about Adolin too to some degree but his primary focus was on Dalinar and if he made an attack on Adolin it would be more to undermine Dalinar.

Edited October 19, 2017 by kari-no-sugata

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

I think this is unlikely. Sadeas was very worried about the political nature of Adolin's fight - he felt that Dalinar had outmanoeuvred him (though it was actually Shallan). Yes he was worried about Adolin too but given that Sadeas is supposedly the superior tactician it would be extremely galling to be out-thought by the "caveman" Dalinar. Also, the first attack made after that part is directly on Dalinar and Navani, not Adolin.

Sadeas interest quickly shifted to Adolin. He didn't want to kill him, but to turn him into a weapon, that cuts Dalinar. For that he needed him alive, not dead. It is absurd to think, that Sadeas planned to kill Adolin. He just wanted to provoke him so much, that he does stupid things.

Like @maxal stated in a different thread: Harm Adolin and you harm Dalinar. Disarm Adolin and you disarm Dalinar. Both politicially and militarily.

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Chapter 29 (Word of Radiance)

Sadeas taped his finger against the side of his seat. "What was it you said about duelists? That they're brash? Hotheaded?"

"Yes. And?"

"Adolin is both of those things and more," Sadeas said softly, considering. "He can be goaded, pushed around, brought to anger. He has passion like his father, but he controls it less securely.".

Can I get him right up to the cliff's edge, Sadeas thought, then shove him off?

"Stop discouraging people from fighting him," Sadeas said. "Don't encourage them to fight him, either. Step back. I want to see how this develops."

"That sounds dangerous," Ialai said. "That boy is a weapon, Torol."

"True," Sadeas said, standing, "but you are rarely cut by a weapon if you are the one holding it hilt."

 

51 minutes ago, kari-no-sugata said:

And if Sadeas was that worried about Adolin's physical prowess he wouldn't have gone out of his way to provoke him in Urithiru (unless he has a death wish).

He did it because that was exactly his plan. Probably not, that Adolin kills him, but he wanted to provoke him. To push him. Fuel his hatred. (The more I think about this, I feel like I'm talking about Star Wars...) Make him do something stupid. Let him become the monster that Dalinar was at Adolin's age. And then, exploit the situation, by denouncing Dalinar, telling everyone: "Look! His son is exactly like he was."

Alas, Sadeas took a gamble and lost it...

...but also forged an opportunity for Ialai. Should she find proof.

Edited October 19, 2017 by SLNC

[maxal]

I don't have the time to reply to all, but here is another extract from WoR which I believe is relevant.

WoR, Chapter 58

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Four Shardbearers. How? Even allowing the help of that slave, it was now obvious that Adolin was at last growing into the man his father had once been. That terrified Sadeas, because the man Dalinar had once been - the Blackthorn - had been a large part of what had conquered this kingdom.

Isn't this what you wanted? Sadeas thought. To reawaken him?

No. The deeper truth was Sadeas didn't want Dalinar back. He wanted his old friend out of the way, and it had been such for months now, no matter what he wanted to tell himself.

...

He had to ensure that Dalinar was desperate and wounded - had to guarantee that the others viewed him as broken, ruined.

Then he'd end this.

 

Sadeas wanted to kill Dalinar, this is true, but not before he hurt him, not before he made him suffer, not before he discredited him, not before he won. 

[kari-no-sugata]

I think it's clear enough that Sadeas's primary target was Dalinar. Perhaps taking down Adolin first was part of that or not but it's hard to be sure. In one scene Sadeas was very nervous about Adolin but didn't seem worried about him either before or after. Anyway, we can only guess as to how Ialai would see things with Sadeas now dead.

The possibility of the Ghostbloods and Ialai teaming up is deliciously dangerous but given Mraize's comments, it seems that this isn't the case. Is it possible that Mraize is lying through his teeth to Shallan though? I'm sure he's lying (or being dishonest) to some degree but could he be lying about his opinion of Sadeas and Ialai? Maybe. Doing so would possibly cause Shallan to underestimate Ialai. But would that be better for him than being honest? It's hard to say.

I don't see Ialai being up to the task of being a big-time villain for the series unless she already is a high-ranking member of an organisation like the Ghostbloods and has the possibility to grow beyond what we've seen so far. Sadeas had essentially overstayed his welcome and I'd be surprised if Ialai survives the book - as villains they're a bit too simple and straightforwardly villainous, if that makes sense.

At the moment, it looks highly likely that Shallan will turn on the Ghostbloods in Urithiru at some point - the only thing stopping her currently is that they have her brothers. Mraize and Iyatil are only part of the Ghostbloods though and so even if Mraize and Iyatil die in this book we'll almost certainly see more of the Ghostbloods later on. It's possible that Mraize could tempt Shallan with information that would help her achieve her goals but at the moment he doesn't seem to be trying to do this - while I'm sure she'd like to know what happened to Helaran, having that information might make little practical difference (depending upon the details of course). He seems surprisingly unconcerned about how hostile Shallan is. Is he just that confident that he can turn Shallan around at a later point?

So all in all it's rather hard to predict what's going on with Mraize and Ialai. In the short term it looks like the Kholins and Shallan would have to deal with Amaram, who is secretly a Son of Honor, while Ialai takes a back seat. I wonder what approach Amaram is going to take...

[WhiteLeeopard]

On 19/10/2017 at 11:22 AM, SLNC said:

He did it because that was exactly his plan. Probably not, that Adolin kills him, but he wanted to provoke him. To push him. Fuel his hatred. (The more I think about this, I feel like I'm talking about Star Wars...) Make him do something stupid. Let him become the monster that Dalinar was at Adolin's age. And then, exploit the situation, by denouncing Dalinar, telling everyone: "Look! His son is exactly like he was."

Heh. Knowing the Alethi they would say "Blackthorn 2.0! What a wonderful day, lets follow him." Remember alethi worship strength and little else despite what they say.