Jump to content

The Oathpact and the last Desolation


Calderis

Recommended Posts

We are told again and again that this desolation is different from the previous ones. I've had an idea of why in my head for some time and realized after a discord conversation today that I've never shared it.

On both the back cover of tWoK and in the Final vision of that book, we are told that the last desolation, mankind's victory over the Voidbringers, was a lie. Odium is winning by using mankind's complacency against itself. 

I think this extends beyond mankind as a whole, and more specifically to the Heralds. They abandoned the Oathpact, and Taln, believing that one Herald going to Damnation would be enough to hold off the Desolation. I believe that they were wrong. 

Quote

luke.spence (paraphrased)

How many parties were there to the original Oathpact?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds).

Quote

luke.spence (paraphrased)

What caused a Desolation to end? Was it just the defeat of Odium's forces? Because the Desolations start when the Heralds break under torture.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Because the Heralds can no longer be in existence. There is a certain period of time that they can be there, and after that, if they're there, they will start a new one. So the Heralds do need to leave for a Desolation to end

darkanimereal1 (paraphrased)

Oh. So they've got a time limit.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They do. Otherwise the Desolation will start again. What they discovered is not all of them have to. As long as one remains, the Desolation will not start again.

luke.spence (paraphrased)

So, by the nine leaving, did that actually break the Oathpact for them? Did it change the cycle of Desolations?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They have not completely broken the Oathpact, despite what they may think.

So if the Heralds do not return after a desolation, a new one begins. And despite what they think, the Oathpact is not broken. 

What I believe has happened is that they did cause another desolation. Odium could have attacked immediately. Instead he has opted for the long con. The Heralds are thought long removed from humanity. The Knights Radiant have disbanded and been demonized. Honor is dead. And everything had been set up for the Listeners to summon the Everstorm. 

Once Odium finally did start acting, releasing voidspren and the like, he had to release Taln to fulfill the part of the Oathpact to which he has somehow been included. The idea that one man, no matter how amazing could stand up to nearly 5000 years of torture that he is literally unable to be killed by... It's ludicrous. Taln did not hold out. Taln is a mentally broken shell of a man. Rather than being the last line of defense, Taln was actively held back from returning. Why else would he be certain he is too late? 

Wit has described Rayse as a cunning man. I think that when the Heralds didn't return, he seized the opportunity presented, and waited to stack everything in his favor. And he's succeeded. 

Edited by Calderis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Isn't this one specifically different because there was no Everstorm before? The Everstorm is a new thing. This was not how the transformation happened in the past.  As to the rest, maybe. He is known for being stubborn, and we're not exactly sure how the torture works. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's clever. I still think Taln could hold out for at least a millennium, but that's another story for another time.

My big uncertainty is Brandon saying "What they discovered is not all of them have to." Discovered gives me a vastly different signal than the Heralds just hoping that this would work.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

Isn't this one specifically different because there was no Everstorm before? The Everstorm is a new thing. This was not how the transformation happened in the past.  As to the rest, maybe. He is known for being stubborn, and we're not exactly sure how the torture works. 

One of the Listener songs promises a new storm to come. I think that the Everstorm, while something new, has had its seeds planted for a long time. 

7 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

It's clever. I still think Taln could hold out for at least a millennium, but that's another story for another time.

My big uncertainty is Brandon saying "What they discovered is not all of them have to." Discovered gives me a vastly different signal than the Heralds just hoping that this would work.

"discovered" does not mean tested. I take that to mean Ishar (as the Prelude tells us this was his idea) discovered something that made him think this would work. 

Ishar has been wrong on other things we're aware of. I see no reason to think he couldn't be wrong here. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

"discovered" does not mean tested. I take that to mean Ishar discovered something that made him think this would work. 

Ishar has been wrong on other things we're aware of. I see no reason to think he couldn't be wrong here. 

True. I still feel that if he discovered something, it had to be somewhat believable, which is a little bit different than him just being wrong. Mostly I'm just curious what he could have "discovered"

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:
15 minutes ago, thejopen27 said:

Isn't this one specifically different because there was no Everstorm before? The Everstorm is a new thing. This was not how the transformation happened in the past.  As to the rest, maybe. He is known for being stubborn, and we're not exactly sure how the torture works. 

One of the Listener songs promises a new storm to come.

Song of Secrets, Stanza 17 (and Final Stanza)

Quote

Nightform predicting what will be,
The form of shadows, mind to forsee.
As the gods did leave, the nightform whispered.
A new storm will come, someday to break.
A new storm a new world to make.
A new storm a new path to take, the nightform listens.

—17th stanza[1]
Quote

Our gods were born splinters of a soul,
Of one who seeks to take control,
Destroys all lands that he beholds, with spite.
They are his spren, his gift, his price.
But the nightforms speak of future life,
A challenged champion. A strife even he must requite.

—final stanza[5]

The highlighted lines are of note regarding things being different.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Calderis said:

One of the Listener songs promises a new storm to come. I think that the Everstorm, while something new, has had its seeds planted for a long time. 

Storm can be used metaphorically. Both Jasnah and Wit imply that the storm is new and that it wasn't how it happened before. Jasnah with info from the Spren and Withoid with his Hoidness.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, thejopen27 said:

Storm can be used metaphorically. Both Jasnah and Wit imply that the storm is new and that it wasn't how it happened before. Jasnah with info from the Spren and Withoid with his Hoidness.

I understand that. I don't think it matters. 

Besides if I'm right, everything about this desolation is different than in the past. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that's what they mean when they say it's different this time though, that's all they mean. Of course everything is different because humanity is both more and less prepared than they were in the past. They are more advanced, smarter, and bettter armed, while also lacking the Heralds, no Radiants and no memory of desolations as well as ready voidbringers embedded throughout the world. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 of the Heralds have essentially abandoned their purpose and the last one is broken to the point of insanity.  I think even when the current desolation "ends", another will shortly follow it because no Herald is capable of fulfilling their mysterious duties and bearing the torture.

Perhaps this will be the "gap" between the first 5 and last 5 books?  A very brief calm before the desolation starts all over again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My current favorite theory is:

  • 9 heralds walked away
  • Desolation ended
  • Odium destroyed Taln after maybe 2000 or 3000 years, 
  • he saw Roshar going in a downward spiral without Desolations,  
  • Odium decided to play a long con
  • he kept Taln with him to wait to attack at his leisure

Which is a mix of what you say and previous theory. I'm still 50:50 on whether Taln might have turned to Odium and is the ultimate Troyan horse.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I hadn't thought about Taln being a Trojan Horse for Odium, I really like that idea. It opens up to a lot of new ideas as to why Taln is mad. Did his mind break because of the many years in Damnation or is it something to do with Odium's control over him. Hmmmm. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Hihihi, gotcha Calderis, I was a bit lazy to search up that thread. So basically, my current theory is based off two of your theories :P. That one and the one on this thread. 

Well that works well, considering this one feeds into that one. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...

As far as the Herald being held back... the Heralds remember their time being tortured just not how long it goes on for correct? You claim a human couldn't have endured it alone.  The Heralds who know exactly what their torture included seemed to think he would be able to bear it.  The Heralds weve seen also don't seem alarmed or suspicious about the 4500 years.

You the poster are suspicious because of our own limits as humans that youve perceived in life.  As a human  4500 years for another human tortured seems overkill. I would think the other Heralds aka enhanced humans would have a better understanding of thier own thresholds. They seem to accept 4500 years of torture as possible to endure so then must I without any other info of the heralds limitations

Edited by Epicnolife
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...