Adonalsium's Foresight

[Steeldancer]

Given that some of the shards have the power to see the future, Adonalsium should have been able to see the future, by virtue of why would the shards have abilities Adonalsium didn't? 

Now, if he had future sight (which was probably better than any of the shards), why didn't Adonalsium see his own shattering? And prevent it? I see two possible situations here:

1. Aluminum was involved. As we know, aluminum is not visible using investiture. It's also possible that aluminum was used to kill Adonalsium. However... Aluminum isn't easy to get your hands on. At least not in a pre-industrial society. So, I'm slightly against this idea. 

2. Adonalsium knew he was going to be shattered, and allowed it to happen. This is interesting. Why would Adonalsium allow itself to be shattered? 

I also have this weird idea that Hoid was Adonalsiums champion or something, which is why he is unable to kill (if Adonalsiums intent was to create life, then why would it let its champion hurt people?) 

Another idea is that Adonalsiums name means "a mind, a soul". Given that there is also a physical realm, perhaps Adonalsium was somehow trying to achieve becoming "a body, a mind, a soul"?

[Oversleep]

3. It was unable to do anything, similarly how Harmony will have a hard time to act given his opposed Intents.

42 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Another idea is that Adonalsiums name means "a mind, a soul".

I wouldn't read into that. It was confirmed Adonalsium came from "Adonai".

[Steeldancer]

Just now, Overstorm said:

3. It was unable to do anything, similarly how Harmony will have a hard time to act given his opposed Intents.

I wouldn't read into that. It was confirmed Adonalsium came from "Adonai".

I was just trying to come up with ideas. 

Anyway, I believe that Adonalsium started off with a unified intent. Why would it start off with 16 different intents? I still like my idea that the intents are actually parts of Adonalsiums old identity, that came off when he was shattered. 

Still, it is a possibility. Although I find it very unlikely that even harmony would struggle with self defense. 

[Yata]

First of all I am aganist the "Adonalsium's Future-sight have to be better than the Shards' one" because simply we don't know...As far as we know Adonalsium's Future sight could easly be between the better Seer between the Shards and the worst one (for the simple fact that the Shards could be saw as Adonalsium's specialization).

About your points:

1- this is the most unlikely it's not meaningful if the Alluminium can't be saw with Investiture...you don't need to see the Alluminium to know it killed you (hypotetic scenario: if you burn Electrum and then a simply guy shoot you dead with an alluminium bullet....the Shadow will still show you as be hitted and dead)

2- this is an actual possibility, of course we don't know enough to know if this is a likely situation or not. For Adonalsium could be not interested into "be alive", he already  completed his purpose (I proposed something like that in another topic) or simply his Shattering and the outcome was part of some kind of masterplan.

3- (by Overstorm) again this is possible but maybe I see it a little less likely than (2). It will deeply depend on the Intent/Mandate's nature...Did the Shards actually inherited them from Andy or did the original Vessel crafted them from nothing when they broke Adonalsium ?

[King Cole]

4 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Anyway, I believe that Adonalsium started off with a unified intent. Why would it start off with 16 different intents? I still like my idea that the intents are actually parts of Adonalsiums old identity, that came off when he was shattered. 

The way I see this is that all of the shards are “aspects” of a diety. And that the shards were split into these “divine” atributes. 

[Calderis]

I'm with Yata on this one. I think Adonalsium was at kind of a middle ground on this ability, and the intents specialize the ability to either enhance it or detract from Adonalsium's baseline ability. 

As far as the shattering... I think Adonalsium saw it coming and allowed it to happen. Not sure why yet, but alternatives to that scenario make no sense to me. We've seen the power of the Shards. I see no Plausible way 16 mortals could destroy the Shards powers combined if the being controlling that power didn't allow it. Adonalsium could have ended them with as much effort as it takes us to blink. 

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

What if Adonalisum were incapacitated by something, which was why the 16 A. saw a need to shatter him and B. were able to shatter him. Maybe there is some way Adonalisum could have entered some sort of coma. Something realmatic which countered him?

[CosmereAvair]

What if Adonalisum did't comprehend his own end? Imagine being almost a god and not being able to see the end,, would almost be like us dying. We all know we are going to die at one point but we can't prevent it, because we don't know how so we ignore it. More importantly not to sure if this is true but isn't there a god above Adonalisum in the spirit realm?

[Fezzik]

The spiritual realm is where the bulk of Adonalsium's power was contained; no, there is no other God there. That being said, the God Beyond exists in the Beyond, the afterlife, that not even shards can see. The God Beyond is closer in function and perception to the Christian God than Adonalsium.

[MacThorstenson]

On 3/4/2014 at 7:42 PM, Chaos said:

There is an opposing force to Adonalsium, and at the midnight release, I asked Brandon to write in my book something about that opposing force. He wrote:

"There was a weapon created by the opposition of Adonalsium."

Well, that's terrifying. What if it is still around? Someone should ask Brandon if Odium knows of this weapon.

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/6419-regarding-adonalsiums-opposing-force-shadows-for-silence-planet-name/

This is from a bit further back, but I wonder if the opposition that caused Adonalsium's down fall may have been able to limit his foresight in some way?

[Hawkido]

On 10/7/2017 at 9:57 AM, Steeldancer said:

I was just trying to come up with ideas. 

Anyway, I believe that Adonalsium started off with a unified intent. Why would it start off with 16 different intents? I still like my idea that the intents are actually parts of Adonalsiums old identity, that came off when he was shattered. 

I believe it was confirmed by Brandon that if Adonalsium were shattered differently the shards would have been different, i.e. Justice, Integrity, Jealousy, etc..., instead of Honor, Preservation, Odium, etc...  So Adonalsium didn't just have 16 flavors (I realize you didn't state that, just using it as an example), those were just the flavors that it shattered into this time, assuming that it has repeated this process in the past, cyclical like, and if not, then it just could have happened differently.  A question for Brandon would be, if different people were present when Adonalsium was shattered, would it have shattered differently?  Perhaps the intent of the people present determined the manner in which it shattered.

Edited October 11, 2017 by Hawkido

[The One Who Connects]

5 hours ago, john203 said:

That being said, the God Beyond exists in the Beyond, the afterlife, that not even shards can see. The God Beyond is closer in function and perception to the Christian God than Adonalsium.

Do bear in mind that we don't know whether or not the God Beyond actually exists, giving it yet another parallel with the Christian God

54 minutes ago, Hawkido said:

I believe it was confirmed by Brandon that if Adonalsium were shattered differently the shards would have been different, i.e. Justice, Integrity, Jealousy, etc..., instead of Honor, Preservation, Odium, etc...  So Adonalsium didn't just have 16 flavors (I realize you didn't state that, just using it as an example), those were just the flavors that it shattered into this time, assuming that it has repeated this process in the past, cyclical like, and if not, then it just could have happened differently. A question for Brandon would be, if different people were present when Adonalsium was shattered, would it have shattered differently?  Perhaps the intent of the people present determined the manner in which it shattered.

Not specifically Justice, Jealousy, etc... but you remember right.

Quote

askthepaperclip

If Adonalsium were to shatter in a parallel universe, would it divide into the same 16 intents?

Brandon Sanderson

Um...it...Adonalsium could have been shattered in other ways.

askthepaperclip

Was there a force determining which way it shattered?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes!

I feel like the "force determining how it shattered" being the people there wouldn't work, if only for he fact that Hoid got offered one of the Shards that one of the other 16 Vessels got. If it was based on the Intents of the people present, shouldn't there have been one for him anyway(making 17 Shards)?

Edited October 11, 2017 by The One Who Connects

[Yata]

8 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Do bear in mind that we don't know whether or not the God Beyond actually exists, giving it yet another parallel with the Christian God

Not specifically Justice, Jealousy, etc... but you remember right.

I feel like the "force determining how it shattered" being the people there wouldn't work, if only for he fact that Hoid got offered one of the Shards that one of the other 16 Vessels got. If it was based on the Intents of the people present, shouldn't there have been one for him anyway(making 17 Shards)?

Maybe Hoid didn't take part to the Shattering but it was still there and for some reason one of the Vessel thought he would merit one of the Shards more than himself.

It could be one of the Vessel who don't want actually the power but only to remove Adonalsium, we don't know WHY they killed Adonalsium and what outcome they hoped

[Oversleep]

10 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

I feel like the "force determining how it shattered" being the people there wouldn't work, if only for he fact that Hoid got offered one of the Shards that one of the other 16 Vessels got. If it was based on the Intents of the people present, shouldn't there have been one for him anyway(making 17 Shards)?

It could also happen much later. Like Hoid came visiting to a Shardworld and the Vessel there offered to give him his Shard?

[The One Who Connects]

16 hours ago, Yata said:

Maybe Hoid didn't take part to the Shattering but it was still there and for some reason one of the Vessel thought he would merit one of the Shards more than himself.

Reasonable enough. Assuming they knew which was which, I'm curious why Hoid turned it down.

16 hours ago, Yata said:

It could be one of the Vessel who don't want actually the power but only to remove Adonalsium, we don't know WHY they killed Adonalsium and what outcome they hoped

That'd make at least 2 of the conspirators who didn't particularly want the spoils of war from it, which seems.. kinda low actually.

---

I've been thinking about the WoB on the subject of the Shard Hoid was offered. The fact that we "haven't seen that one yet" tells us nothing about whether they knew which Shards they were getting. However, it tells us that the person who offered it is not one of the vessels we know of, as that person likely would have taken up the Shard after Hoid declined it.

14 hours ago, Overstorm said:

It could also happen much later. Like Hoid came visiting to a Shardworld and the Vessel there offered to give him his Shard?

Oh right. Forgot they could (potentially) step down from Shardhood. My entire line of reasoning upended again

[Oversleep]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

Oh right. Forgot they could (potentially) step down from Shardhood. My entire line of reasoning upended again

Oversleep back at proposing totally mundane explanations which upend entire lines of reasoning again!

[Fezzik]

5 hours ago, Overstorm said:

Oversleep back at proposing totally mundane explanations which upend entire lines of reasoning again!

?? I thought you proposed this, overstorm.

[Oversleep]

7 hours ago, john203 said:

?? I thought you proposed this, overstorm.

I changed my name to Overstorm in celebration of the approaching Last Desolation that is in the Oathbringer.

I think I need to change it back, new Sharders don't recognize me :<

[The Invested Beard]

Well one thing's for certain. His hindsight is definitely better than his foresight.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

Do we know if all of the 16 where there at the shattering? Here is an idea i'm considering: The weapon/tool/method used to shatter Adonalsium had to do so into 16 pieces. But there weren't 16 of them originally. Maybe a smaller team between 7 and 12. Maybe Hoid was one of them. Not sure why they wanted to kill Uncle Andy, but it wasn't primarily for power. In fact, they wanted to avoid anyone grabbing more than one shard. So they shatter Adonalsium, then each take up a shard, and find other people to take up the leftover shards. Hoid just happened to not want a shard. He could either have been one of the people who helped shatter Uncle Andy, or someone who was offered a shard afterwards.

[Wreith]

13 hours ago, Lord Maelstrom said:

Do we know if all of the 16 where there at the shattering? Here is an idea i'm considering: The weapon/tool/method used to shatter Adonalsium had to do so into 16 pieces. But there weren't 16 of them originally. Maybe a smaller team between 7 and 12. Maybe Hoid was one of them. Not sure why they wanted to kill Uncle Andy, but it wasn't primarily for power. In fact, they wanted to avoid anyone grabbing more than one shard. So they shatter Adonalsium, then each take up a shard, and find other people to take up the leftover shards. Hoid just happened to not want a shard. He could either have been one of the people who helped shatter Uncle Andy, or someone who was offered a shard afterwards.

I was thinking the opposite. I wondered if maybe they didn't know how many pieces there would be. They formed a large group to perform the shattering, but with only 16 shards they had to decide who took the power.

If I'm not mistaken, questions about whether the people we think are the original shardholders are actually the original shardholders have gotten RAFO.

I was sort of wondering if there were a lot of people present and there was something of a tiny succession war among those present. Hoid was smart enough to just turn down the shard he was offered rather than risk being immediately killed and stolen from.

Obviously I have no evidence for this theory

Edited October 13, 2017 by Wreith

[Head Crabs]

I've wrestled in my mind with my current theory about adonalsium's shattering for a long time now. I'm of the opinion that his shattering was part of its own plans. That all of the life and pre-shattering magic was a kind of template laid down and once complete, moved on to giving his power to his creations to keep the progress moving forward. Perhaps this process is cyclical and has and will occur again and again in different ways every time. (That last bit is a bit weaker in my opinion) 

 

Maybe this current diversity of magic and life in the cosmere could only be possible by adonalsium shattering and that power changing and being taken up by the 16 vessels. Seeing that it was only possible this way with his future sight. 

 

As much as all this makes some sense to me, i still rail against it. It feels too simple and not at all elegant enough to be the truth that brandon had planned for us. Without secret knowledge this is the best theory i have currently. 

 

[The One Who Connects]

On 10/13/2017 at 11:03 AM, Wreith said:

If I'm not mistaken, questions about whether the people we think are the original shardholders are actually the original shardholders have gotten RAFO.

Have this:

Quote

[–]Oudeis16Bronze 2 points 7 days ago 

I'll try to find it, I believe there's a WoB that Leras's death was the first time someone other than an original Shardholder took up a Shard...

[–]SageOfTheWise 4 points 4 days ago 

Yes, Preservation was the first shard to be held by someone outside the original 16. That answer is the inscription on my signed Mistborn leatherbound.

Not directly contradictory to what you said, but it provides an interesting perspective shift on the topic.