Popular Post Erunion Posted October 5, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 (Sitting in a tree....) Serious Theory Time: Szeth is rebuilding a moral code based on Nightblood, and that will seriously affect all of his future interactions. Spoilers for Oathbringer, Edgedancer and Warbreaker. When Szeth ‘died’ and was revived by Our Friend Nale he admired Szeth’s dedication to his law, and tried to recruit him to the Skybreakers. And then he introduced him to Nightblood. Nightblood, destroyer of evil and sword of terrifying hilarity. Would you like to kill some evil today? Nightblood is a super sword created to destroy evil, and it’s pretty darn good at it - well, the destroying part anyway. Most interestingly, however, is that Nightblood has a resonance with people. If someone is good/innocent/relatively moral, they will feel profoundly nauseated by Nightblood. If someone is evil/selfish/relatively immoral they will be filled with lust to claim and use Nightblood; all but inevitably ending in their death. Where does this leave us? Well, Szeth is starting to dedicate himself to, or at least live by the precepts of, the Sword. He will go about ‘destroying evil’ - but only those who are nauseated by Nightblood. This will create extremely interesting conflicts as he uses the ‘Nightblood Litmus Test’ to determine who he should kill, and if he should kill. This will especially be interesting when he runs into our ‘voidbringers’ the freed Parsh-people. It will be even more interesting when we run into ‘possessed’ parsh-people like Eshonai. Would they qualify as evil to be destroyed? But that’s an aside. Evidence for this theory: this mostly comes from Edgedancer. It’s pretty clear that Our Friend Nale was trying to recruit Szeth, and Szeth was hanging around, but he was not buying into the Skybreaker motto, and did not drink their kool-aid as it were. He’s openly questioning the man he believes to be the Herald of Justice. Interestingly too they have a discussion about being unable/unwilling to trust their own minds. Most strikingly, when Szeth notices Lift, he doesn’t turn her over to Nale’s ‘justice’. Instead, he uses the Nightblood Litmus Test. Lift is nauseated, passing the test, after which Szeth talks to her and helps her, instead of killing her or turning her in. So, I think Szeth, not trusting the minds or manners of feeble Men or their laws, is instead trusting himself and his behaviour to the Nightblood Litmus Test. Of course, there’s a lot left open - where will he go? To whom will he apply the test? But there we are! 27 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ElephantEarwax Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 This is a really interesting. I like the Nightblood litmus test, idea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nashan’Elin Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 I agree with you 100%. Szeth is using his Nightblood Litmus Test as his moral determinant now, and that is going to cause some problems. I think Szeth knows very little about Nightblood, as evidenced by the fact he doesn’t know its name. He may believe, based on what he has seen, that the sword is some powerful being capable of determining good and evil. The problem with this, of course, is that our dear old super-powered robot spren of a talking sword has no clue what evil really is, only that it should be destroyed. I could see some serious problems developing from that, like the situations you mentioned. Whatever happens, I think this is a great theory. My Upvote to Yours, my Rep become Yours, and I’m excited to see how this will develop in Oathbringer. 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+ElephantEarwax Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, Nashan'Elin said: I agree with you 100%. Szeth is using his Nightblood Litmus Test as his moral determinant now, and that is going to cause some problems. I think Szeth knows very little about Nightblood, as evidenced by the fact he doesn’t know its name. He may believe, based on what he has seen, that the sword is some powerful being capable of determining good and evil. The problem with this, of course, is that our dear old super-powered robot spren of a talking sword has no clue what evil really is, only that it should be destroyed. I could see some serious problems developing from that, like the situations you mentioned. That could cause problems, Nightblood not knowing what evil is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erunion Posted October 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 7 minutes ago, Nashan'Elin said: My Upvote to Yours, my Rep become Yours Best upvote speech I’ve ever seen in any thread on any forum. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post aemetha Posted October 5, 2017 Popular Post Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 The resonance isn't a consciously directed judgement on the part of Nightblood though (at least as I understand it). It's not that Nightblood goes "You're evil, wield me and kill all your friends then yourself" or "You're good, get sick when you look at me". It's that people look at Nightblood and are either repulsed by his wrongness or attracted to it. The judgement made is on the part of the individual, not on the part of Nightblood. So while Nightblood doesn't know what good and evil is, people know what good and evil is, or at least know what their intentions are, and if their intentions are to cause harm selfishly they are attracted, and if their intentions are to prevent harm selflessly they are repulsed. That's not quite the same as good versus evil, but a large part of why Nightblood doesn't understand good and evil is they are subjective judgements. It's still a reasonably good indicator of whether a person intends to contribute to or detract from society. In short, if Szeth is learning to make subjective judgements about the intentions of people from their response to the sword, that's probably not a particularly bad teacher. If he was learning to make subjective judgements about people from what the sword says to him, that's a horrible teacher and will likely end in Nightblood consuming the world. 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erunion Posted October 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 @aemetha - solid expansion on the theory 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmithki Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 The problem there is what night blood's threshold for "evil" and "good" are, depending, he could choose to kill our protagonists or save voidbringers. It doesn't help that none of the shards are "good" or "evil" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darvys Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 To be fair, we still don't know what he would do to someone who'd reach for the sword, and I don't think he'll start blindly slaughtering anyone Nightblood deems unworthy. I don't quite remember Nightblood's temperament, it's been a while, but i'm sure it's not the kind of being a careful guy like Szeth would readily trust. From the little we saw of him in Edgedancer, i'd say he has yet to decide the direction he'll go, he is right to question Nale's near worship of the law, as i assume back in the day the Skybreakers enforced the laws set by the Heralds, not by some dude who managed to put his chull on a throne. I'm curious to see which way he'll go, and if being on Roshar will somehow allow Nightblood to grow thanks to the bond i assume he'll form with Szeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silarn Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 I think it's worth remembering that Brandon has said that Nightblood is growing and learning - and I don't think we know how many years have actually passed between Warbreaker and Stormlight Archive. Thus, Nightblood may have changed a bit in that time. There are a lot of unknowns - and we can't assume things are the same as in Warbreaker. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blacksmithki Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 Well the stormlight archives are set around the middle of the 10 000 year cosmere, (WoB somewhere) does anyone know when warbreaker is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, Blacksmithki said: Well the stormlight archives are set around the middle of the 10 000 year cosmere, (WoB somewhere) does anyone know when warbreaker is? After Mistborn TFE but before SA. best I can give ya. The problem with Nightblood is that his judgment is based on two factors. The perception of the person being judged, and their desires as to how they would use the sword. Most people view themselves in a way that reflects what is socially normal. So if they think of themselves as a "bad" person relatively, Nightblood is going to try and make them bloodthirsty. I'm curious what a true sociopath would do though, because morality... Doesn't really factor in to their perception. Would their ability to use the sword for power and gain be enough to tip the scale towards "evil" or would they be a truly neutral figure to Nightblood, and be neither nauseated or bloodthirsty? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erunion Posted October 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Blacksmithki said: Well the stormlight archives are set around the middle of the 10 000 year cosmere, (WoB somewhere) does anyone know when warbreaker is? Before WOK for sure. Characters from Warbreaker are in Stormlight, clearly after events that happened in Warbreaker. EDIT: Ninja’d by @Calderis Edited October 5, 2017 by Erunion Ninja’d Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy92 Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 4 hours ago, Erunion said: Best upvote speech I’ve ever seen in any thread on any forum. Your Rep to mine. Now I have all the Rep. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 3 hours ago, Darvys said: To be fair, we still don't know what he would do to someone who'd reach for the sword, and I don't think he'll start blindly slaughtering anyone Nightblood deems unworthy. I don't quite remember Nightblood's temperament, it's been a while, but i'm sure it's not the kind of being a careful guy like Szeth would readily trust. From the little we saw of him in Edgedancer, i'd say he has yet to decide the direction he'll go, he is right to question Nale's near worship of the law, as i assume back in the day the Skybreakers enforced the laws set by the Heralds, not by some dude who managed to put his chull on a throne. I'm curious to see which way he'll go, and if being on Roshar will somehow allow Nightblood to grow thanks to the bond i assume he'll form with Szeth. He wouldn't need to slaughter anyone. When somebody "fails" the Nightblood test they stick Nightblood through their own chest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erunion Posted October 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 24 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said: He wouldn't need to slaughter anyone. When somebody "fails" the Nightblood test they stick Nightblood through their own chest. Not always - that’s the way Vasher did it usually. He would throw the sword at the person and let them kill themselves with it... usually. But the test is just the blood lust vs. Nausea experienced. If Vasher/Szeth kept hold of the sword they could use it to kill (instead of letting people kill each other). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darvys Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 21 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said: He wouldn't need to slaughter anyone. When somebody "fails" the Nightblood test they stick Nightblood through their own chest. I'm aware, but allowing it to happen would pretty much amount to the same, with the weight he already carries, i have a feeling Szeth will be more merciful than that. Come to think of it, doesn't take much to be more merciful than Nightblood ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felt Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 What if Szeth and Nightblood encounter Taravingian? He thinks he's saving the world... What would Nightblood do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calderis Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 17 minutes ago, Felt said: What if Szeth and Nightblood encounter Taravingian? He thinks he's saving the world... What would Nightblood do? I'm fairly sure that his sense of guilt and remorse over his actions would put him in the evil camp according to Nightblood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nix Posted October 5, 2017 Report Share Posted October 5, 2017 54 minutes ago, Calderis said: I'm fairly sure that his sense of guilt and remorse over his actions would put him in the evil camp according to Nightblood. Hehe. Might depend on how smart he's feeling that day. Subjective based on how emotionally driven he is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The One Who Connects Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 On 10/5/2017 at 2:19 PM, Blacksmithki said: Well the stormlight archives are set around the middle of the 10 000 year cosmere, (WoB somewhere) does anyone know when warbreaker is? The Prelude for Stormlight Archives is currently 6000 years after the Shattering.[2] The Modern Story is 4,500 Rosharan years(just about 5K Earth years) after the Prelude. Modern Stormlight Archives Story is about 11,000 years after the Shattering. Quote Brandon Sanderson Current timeline, which I have NOT canonized, is around 6,000 years... I have not finished with my outline document yet. leiftinspace 'Cause I've looked at the current chronology and it's very, very spotty... Brandon Sanderson Yes it is... the real trick is... making sure that I fit in, for instance, White Sand and things with the proper amount... because I haven't released that book series yet, I have to make sure while we're doing the graphic novel, that it fits the chronology, which is why I can't quite canonize things yet. As for Warbreaker, it's between Mistborn Era 1 and Stormlight Archive. The only additional detail I can give you is that the timegap between Warbreaker and Stormlight is big enough for Brandon to consider the Warbreaker Sequel as "closer to Warbreaker than to Stormlight." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dahak Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 On 05/10/2017 at 6:12 PM, ElephantEarwax said: That could cause problems, Nightblood not knowing what evil is. Luckily for Nightblood it appears Szeth is at least a moderately read scholar and now willing to ask awkward questions so his new metal friend doesn't get as mesed up as him. Szeth seems more willing to endulge in philosophical discussion with Nightblood than Vasher was. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generalbacon74 Posted October 17, 2017 Report Share Posted October 17, 2017 (edited) so are you saying Szeth is acting as Ham now with Nightblood. All philosophical. Edited October 17, 2017 by Generalbacon74 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salkara Posted October 18, 2017 Report Share Posted October 18, 2017 15 hours ago, Generalbacon74 said: so are you saying Szeth is acting as Ham now with Nightblood. All philosophical. How great would a discussion between Ham and Szeth be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catladyman Posted October 18, 2017 Report Share Posted October 18, 2017 So Nightblood has definitely given Szeth the ability to draw in stormlight, given the strange afterimage he leaves behind. The question is, assuming Szeth can Nahel bond Nightblood, what sorts of abilities would he gain? Because Nightblood is an artificial spren, who knows if he will grant neighboring surge. We don't even know that he will grant any surges, let alone known ones. I'm ready to see Szeth become a KR outside of the orders, given that his spren bond will be so unique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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