Spirit Web thoughts

[Steeldancer]

Ok I'm probably going to ramble here but I feel like I'm on the verge of a breakthrough of understanding Spirit webs, so I'll just share my thoughts. 

Snapping is like a glowstick. It won't work until you break it. (Not too much, obviously, because then you get funky chemicals all over you). After it's glowing, it's more like a circuit. Burning a metal is like completing the circuit, drawing power from preservation to flow investiture through the Web. 

Intent is like a super powered Identity. When Adonalsium shattered, his identity shattered too, leaving pieces we now know as the Intents. These intents are part of a HUGE spirit web that is a Shard. A person commanding a shard is like a little spirit web in the center of the massive one, commanding it. The problem is the Shardic web will change the Vessels identity, because it is simply so much more powerful. 

Investiture extends and expands the spirit web. This is why some shards are able to see the future. They have enough investiture that they... expand their web forward, exploring the possibilities. This happens on a lesser extent when someone burns Atium. This also relates to Feruchemy; feruchemy stores the investiture from various parts of your spirit web (like, your weight) to be later tapped to make those strands thicker and stronger. Compounding would be like making those strands ridiculously thick. 

Feruchemy I think comes from a balance of passive investiture in your spirit web, between Preservation and Ruin, rather than Connection. Allomancy relies on how MUCH passive preservation investiture you have in your web. If you have more than a certain amount, you become a mistborn, able to complete a big circuit. Less than that, a misting, as you only have enough investiture to complete one "circuit." The more investiture in your spirit web, the stronger your "allomancy strands" are, and the more powerful of a mistborn/misting are you. 

Shades impose a new shape on a spirit web. 

Radiants join spirit webs with their spren, giving them the power to use surges. 

Elantrians have a strong connection to the land, which is why it is location dependent.

I hope some of the ideas are coherent and maybe interesting. Provide feedback below

 

[Steeldancer]

I swear its impossible to get a proper discussion started here. I'm interested in the idea that Intent is actually Identity. 

[Mulk]

I don't know about the others, Steel, but I'm still kinda processing it.  I think I may wind up with a quibble (or maybe it's more of an elaboration?) with your assertion on the Elantrians - the Dor itself is regionalized on Sel, and given the way spiritwebs and Investiture work in the Cosmere, I think it's probably fair to say that Investiture itself works differently in the various regions and that drives the connection to the land, not the other way around.

If I may digress for a moment, that world is a weird one in any case.  Given how long ago that Odium's visit had to have occurred, it seems a reasonable assumption to me that the Dor as we know them are not something the two created, but a byproduct of the way in which the two were Splintered - with Devotion driving the practices themselves and Dominion driving the location requirements.  Devotion and Dominion seem to be all mixed together, so that if one could heal the Splintering by Odium enough to take up either shard you'd probably have to take up both.  I'll be curious to see how/if that ever plays out.

As to your greater overall point - I think I'm leaning toward agreement for now. But, as I said, I'm still processing. 

[Steeldancer]

Just now, Mulk said:

I don't know about the others, Steel, but I'm still kinda processing it.  I think I may wind up with a quibble (or maybe it's more of an elaboration?) with your assertion on the Elantrians - the Dor itself is regionalized on Sel, and given the way spiritwebs and Investiture work in the Cosmere, I think it's probably fair to say that Investiture itself works differently in the various regions and that drives the connection to the land, not the other way around.

If I may digress for a moment, that world is a weird one in any case.  Given how long ago that Odium's visit had to have occurred, it seems a reasonable assumption to me that the Dor as we know them are not something the two created, but a byproduct of the way in which the two were Splintered - with Devotion driving the practices themselves and Dominion driving the location requirements.  Devotion and Dominion seem to be all mixed together, so that if one could heal the Splintering by Odium enough to take up either shard you'd probably have to take up both.  I'll be curious to see how/if that ever plays out.

As to your greater overall point - I think I'm leaning toward agreement for now. But, as I said, I'm still processing. 

I'm just impatient I guess lol. To be honest I haven't entirely figured out whats going on with the spirit webs of elantrians. I assume, maybe the Dor is constantly coating their spirit webs, or something like that? Idk. We don't really have enough information about them to be sure. 

[Calderis]

It's not that I don't want to discuss these things @Steeldancer, I just don't have really anything to add. Either I agree but can't explain why, like with your Feruchemy example, or the opposite, like with the foresight of the Shards. 

With the intent = Identity thing... I disagree. I feel like intent is a defining force for a Shard, whereas identity is a trait defined by the thing it is attached too. If intent = Identity, I feel like anyone storing identity completely would have no will. 

 

[Steeldancer]

Just now, Calderis said:

It's not that I don't want to discuss these things @Steeldancer, I just don't have really anything to add. Either I agree but can't explain why, like with your Feruchemy example, or the opposite, like with the foresight of the Shards. 

With the intent = Identity thing... I disagree. I feel like intent is a defining force for a Shard, whereas identity is a trait defined by the thing it is attached too. If intent = Identity, I feel like anyone storing identity completely would have no will. 

 

Maybe I didn't explain that properly. Intent once was part of the identity of Adonalsium. Which was so strong, when it shattered, it's pieces attached itself to the shards. 

But did I really construct my idea that well that nobody has anything to say? That's almost disappointing. I kind of expected more WoBs proving me wrong lol. 

[Calderis]

15 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Maybe I didn't explain that properly. Intent once was part of the identity of Adonalsium. Which was so strong, when it shattered, it's pieces attached itself to the shards. 

But did I really construct my idea that well that nobody has anything to say? That's almost disappointing. I kind of expected more WoBs proving me wrong lol. 

I don't mean this disparagingly, so please don't take it wrong. I don't know if it's that it's well constructed... It's just that these are the parts of realmatics that are mostly headcanon. 

Brandon is super tightglipped about the Spiritual Realm. It's hard to say why I agree or disagree with things concerning identity, connection, and fortune, because... It's all baseless speculation in my brain. 

I thought I understood identity pretty well until a couple days ago, and now I feel like I'm back at square one. 

I don't want to not discuss, I just don't know where to start. Does that make sense? 

Edit: it's not that it isn't well constructed either... I just feel like any disagreement on this is essentially going to be me saying "my conjecture on this topic is better than yours" 

Edited October 5, 2017 by Calderis

[Wreith]

This is sort of off the cuff:

If Adonalsium was a massive cosmic force that attained sentience, I accept that the sentience would have Identity.

But when it was shattered, I would expect the intellegence, the Identity, to go away.

Thinking of Sel, splinters there after the shattering had to reattain sentience, they don't seem to have sprung up already having Identity.

Thus I think that the 16 Shards were again relegated to mere cosmic forces, but they might be so much bigger than the Identies trying to contain them that they are forming their own Identies again like we see splinters doing. These Shard Identities begin to override the Identity of the Holder.

I don't think the Intents had Identity immediately following the shattering, but it's possible they developed Identity over time.

Splinters and the case of the new holder for Harmony are really the only opportunities we have to derive information for this.

It's also possible soulcasting could offer insight, a-la Stick's Identity

Edited October 10, 2017 by Wreith
had Honor instead of Harmony

[Steeldancer]

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I don't mean this disparagingly, so please don't take it wrong. I don't know if it's that it's well constructed... It's just that these are the parts of realmatics that are mostly headcanon. 

Brandon is super tightglipped about the Spiritual Realm. It's hard to say why I agree or disagree with things concerning identity, connection, and fortune, because... It's all baseless speculation in my brain. 

I thought I understood identity pretty well until a couple days ago, and now I feel like I'm back at square one. 

I don't want to not discuss, I just don't know where to start. Does that make sense? 

Edit: it's not that it isn't well constructed either... I just feel like any disagreement on this is essentially going to be me saying "my conjecture on this topic is better than yours" 

I'll take you up on a point here. 

Fortune, is WEIRD. I cannot put it into any sort of meaningful context in the spiritual realm. 

I would like to hear your ideas. Just because he's tightlipped about it, doesn't mean we shouldn't do conjecture about it. Since when has that stopped us before? 

Obviously, these are all theories and opinions. I have no real proof for it. I like how it sounds, it makes sense in my head. Until it's disproved, I will probably be operating with this as my head canon. 

[Calderis]

6 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Snapping is like a glowstick. It won't work until you break it. (Not too much, obviously, because then you get funky chemicals all over you). After it's glowing, it's more like a circuit. Burning a metal is like completing the circuit, drawing power from preservation to flow investiture through the Web.

I understand what you are trying to say here, and I agree. I just disagree with the terminology. I think think of it as a incomplete circuit with a slot for a fuse that's blocked. Snapping removed the block, but doesn't complete the circuit. Adding in a fuel source completes the circuit until the fuse breaks/fuel runs out. 

6 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Intent is like a super powered Identity. When Adonalsium shattered, his identity shattered too, leaving pieces we now know as the Intents. These intents are part of a HUGE spirit web that is a Shard. A person commanding a shard is like a little spirit web in the center of the massive one, commanding it. The problem is the Shardic web will change the Vessels identity, because it is simply so much more powerful. 

In my mind, intent is completely unique to the Shard. When I said I think of it as a driving force I meant it. We've been told that splintering a Shard is similar to the shattering, but I don't think they are the same thing. 

I believe that when the power was shattered, it broke apart the mind that guided Adonalsium as well. The idea that all of the Shards together would create a complete personality, in my opinion, is true. The intents are what you get when you rip a Cognitive aspect apart. 

6 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

Investiture extends and expands the spirit web. This is why some shards are able to see the future. They have enough investiture that they... expand their web forward, exploring the possibilities. This happens on a lesser extent when someone burns Atium.

I think that your partially correct here, but that there's more to it. If that were all it was, then all Shards would have this ability equally.

I think Shardic foresight is tied to the Intent itself. The most I've described it before is with Honor and Cultivation.

Honor fails at foresight, because the intent is all about looking at the past. Keeping promises made, and holding to oaths and codes of conduct. 

Cultivation, on the other hand is completely about the future. It's about deciding on a goal, removing the obstacles, and directing things towards achieving the goal. 

The rest of your post... I just don't know how to explain my thoughts. 

[+ElephantEarwax]

I like it. some stuff doesn't fit, and I can't exactly explain it.

[Metalrift]

I like most of this, so I'll comment on some of it, although my understanding of it is mostly just headcanon.

On 5 October 2017 at 10:24 PM, Steeldancer said:

Snapping is like a glowstick. It won't work until you break it. (Not too much, obviously, because then you get funky chemicals all over you). After it's glowing, it's more like a circuit. Burning a metal is like completing the circuit, drawing power from preservation to flow investiture through the Web. 

I like this analogy, because I like the theory that Investiture (or Connection) has wave-like properties and if that is the case, it would make sense to me that changes in the spirit web's connection could be compared to chemistry. As I understand it, Snapping as an allomancer establishes connections to Preservation (the ones that enable Investiture to flow to the allomancer when a metal is burnt) so new connections are being formed from the allomancer's sDNA by Snapping.

On 5 October 2017 at 10:24 PM, Steeldancer said:

Intent is like a super powered Identity. When Adonalsium shattered, his identity shattered too, leaving pieces we now know as the Intents. These intents are part of a HUGE spirit web that is a Shard. A person commanding a shard is like a little spirit web in the center of the massive one, commanding it. The problem is the Shardic web will change the Vessels identity, because it is simply so much more powerful. 

I disagree with this, because I see Intent and Identity as different things. Intent is like a character of the shards' investiture that determines what it does and how it acts, while Identity is more like a tag associated with Investiture that distinguishes individual blocks of Investiture.

On 5 October 2017 at 10:24 PM, Steeldancer said:

Investiture extends and expands the spirit web. This is why some shards are able to see the future. They have enough investiture that they... expand their web forward, exploring the possibilities. This happens on a lesser extent when someone burns Atium. This also relates to Feruchemy; feruchemy stores the investiture from various parts of your spirit web (like, your weight) to be later tapped to make those strands thicker and stronger. Compounding would be like making those strands ridiculously thick. 

All shards are able to see the future, as they exist primarily in the spiritual realm and can see into it. Anyone who sees into the spiritual realm can see through time, although their ability to predict the future varies. I agree with Calderis' view that the intent of shards determines their ability to see the future. What you say about Feruchemy seems to be accurate, although I can't judge its accuracy, as I don't know much about it. I thought that shards were more like a great quantity of investiture, with a specific intent, and don't have much in the way of a spirit web unless left alone for a long time, but can fuse with a person,filling their soirit web with power.

On 5 October 2017 at 10:24 PM, Steeldancer said:

Feruchemy I think comes from a balance of passive investiture in your spirit web, between Preservation and Ruin, rather than Connection. Allomancy relies on how MUCH passive preservation investiture you have in your web. If you have more than a certain amount, you become a mistborn, able to complete a big circuit. Less than that, a misting, as you only have enough investiture to complete one "circuit." The more investiture in your spirit web, the stronger your "allomancy strands" are, and the more powerful of a mistborn/misting are you. 

Once again, I can't really comment on Feruchemy. As for the difference between mistings and mistborn, I would say that mistborn have more Connection to Preservation but it's spread out between many allomancy circuits, while mistings only have one allomancy circuit. I don't think mistborn have only one allomancy circuit. Feruchemists would have similar circuits, but made from the investiture of Preservation and Ruin, with their intents mixed together.

19 hours ago, Calderis said:

 

I thought I understood identity pretty well until a couple days ago, and now I feel like I'm back at square one. 

What caused you to change your mind?

18 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

 

Fortune, is WEIRD. I cannot put it into any sort of meaningful context in the spiritual realm. 

I would like to hear your ideas. Just because he's tightlipped about it, doesn't mean we shouldn't do conjecture about it. Since when has that stopped us before? 

My wild guess is that Fortune affects your ability to actively shape your future, without any other action, so like everyone has a connection to what may happen in the future so by manipulating one's fortune, it is possible to increase the likelyhood of desired occurences, because they're more connected to someone. This is just wild speculation though. I'm fairly sure all possible futures are contained in the Spiritual Realm, so fortune is Spiritual.

Edited October 6, 2017 by Metalrift

[Steeldancer]

4 hours ago, Metalrift said:

I like most of this, so I'll comment on some of it, although my understanding of it is mostly just headcanon.

I like this analogy, because I like the theory that Investiture (or Connection) has wave-like properties and if that is the case, it would make sense to me that changes in the spirit web's connection could be compared to chemistry. As I understand it, Snapping as an allomancer establishes connections to Preservation (the ones that enable Investiture to flow to the allomancer when a metal is burnt) so new connections are being formed from the allomancer's sDNA by Snapping.

I disagree with this, because I see Intent and Identity as different things. Intent is like a character of the shards' investiture that determines what it does and how it acts, while Identity is more like a tag associated with Investiture that distinguishes individual blocks of Investiture.

All shards are able to see the future, as they exist primarily in the spiritual realm and can see into it. Anyone who sees into the spiritual realm can see through time, although their ability to predict the future varies. I agree with Calderis' view that the intent of shards determines their ability to see the future. What you say about Feruchemy seems to be accurate, although I can't judge its accuracy, as I don't know much about it. I thought that shards were more like a great quantity of investiture, with a specific intent, and don't have much in the way of a spirit web unless left alone for a long time, but can fuse with a person,filling their soirit web with power.

Once again, I can't really comment on Feruchemy. As for the difference between mistings and mistborn, I would say that mistborn have more Connection to Preservation but it's spread out between many allomancy circuits, while mistings only have one allomancy circuit. I don't think mistborn have only one allomancy circuit. Feruchemists would have similar circuits, but made from the investiture of Preservation and Ruin, with their intents mixed together.

What caused you to change your mind?

My wild guess is that Fortune affects your ability to actively shape your future, without any other action, so like everyone has a connection to what may happen in the future so by manipulating one's fortune, it is possible to increase the likelyhood of desired occurences, because they're more connected to someone. This is just wild speculation though. I'm fairly sure all possible futures are contained in the Spiritual Realm, so fortune is Spiritual.

The whole one mistborn circuit was a way to explain how you can't just end up with two misting powers. Looking back, I kind of agree with you. 

[Metalrift]

Having thought about it more, I now think that there is one Mistborn circuit, but it's made of many parallel circuits. This, to me, goes towards both explaining why there are no natural double misting so and why only one power can be spiked at a time.

What did you think of my idea for the nature of fortune? Personally, I'm not sure about the use of the word connection. Do you have any ideas for other words?

[Djarskublar]

On 10/5/2017 at 5:24 AM, Steeldancer said:

Ok I'm probably going to ramble here but I feel like I'm on the verge of a breakthrough of understanding Spirit webs, so I'll just share my thoughts. 

Snapping is like a glowstick. It won't work until you break it. (Not too much, obviously, because then you get funky chemicals all over you). After it's glowing, it's more like a circuit. Burning a metal is like completing the circuit, drawing power from preservation to flow investiture through the Web. 

Intent is like a super powered Identity. When Adonalsium shattered, his identity shattered too, leaving pieces we now know as the Intents. These intents are part of a HUGE spirit web that is a Shard. A person commanding a shard is like a little spirit web in the center of the massive one, commanding it. The problem is the Shardic web will change the Vessels identity, because it is simply so much more powerful. 

Investiture extends and expands the spirit web. This is why some shards are able to see the future. They have enough investiture that they... expand their web forward, exploring the possibilities. This happens on a lesser extent when someone burns Atium. This also relates to Feruchemy; feruchemy stores the investiture from various parts of your spirit web (like, your weight) to be later tapped to make those strands thicker and stronger. Compounding would be like making those strands ridiculously thick. 

Feruchemy I think comes from a balance of passive investiture in your spirit web, between Preservation and Ruin, rather than Connection. Allomancy relies on how MUCH passive preservation investiture you have in your web. If you have more than a certain amount, you become a mistborn, able to complete a big circuit. Less than that, a misting, as you only have enough investiture to complete one "circuit." The more investiture in your spirit web, the stronger your "allomancy strands" are, and the more powerful of a mistborn/misting are you. 

Shades impose a new shape on a spirit web. 

Radiants join spirit webs with their spren, giving them the power to use surges. 

Elantrians have a strong connection to the land, which is why it is location dependent.

I hope some of the ideas are coherent and maybe interesting. Provide feedback below

 

I'd say Snapping is like flipping the switch into an 'on' position, and burning is plugging in the LED to complete the circuit (after all, the metal is the filter that determines outcome, like the color of an LED). I liked you mentioning not snapping too hard because of funky chemicals. That might be an apt way to describe savantism. Might. We really don't know since I think there are some retcons being planned.

Identity is more like a serial # or a lock/key. With Feruchemy, if the metalmind doesn't have the right serial #, you can't access it. For medallions, I describe it as blank metalminds are like having a lock with one tumbler, so anyone with a key can get in, and unkeyed metalminds are basically taking away the lock entirely. Intent is more cognitive in nature. If something doesn't match the Intent of a Shard, they can't push the power through the Intent's cognitive filter to make things happen.

Selish magic is location dependent for a couple reasons. Dominion makes it cultural-geographically based, and then the fact that the Dor isn't everywhere and nowhere in the Spiritual Realm, it is in the CR makes it so the power can only reach certain areas (Sel).

Happy to help you get some discussion. I know the feel. Really well.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

Wow. I have a ton to say:

When Adonalsium was Shattered, they 16 shards already had their intents. Though I don't think it's ever been stated outright, it is an assumption behind several WoBs. Examples: Hoid was offered a specific shard, and turned it down. However, there is also a WoB saying that he would have been tempted by a different shard. I can't remember what shards though. Rayse chose Odium as a shard because it was the shard closest to his personality, and thus least likely to warp him. Etc. The point here is that when the shards were taken up by their original vessels, they already had Intents. And it isn't like the Seons and Skaze from Elantris or Spren from Roshar, since that has to do with large enough amounts of investiture forming it's own sentience. If you were to just leave a shard there, I'm fairly sure that would just mean that the Shard would create a vessel for itself.

Elantrian magic is Location-dependent because of the way that Devotion and Dominion were splintered. Odium wanted to avoid situations where they would regain sentience, (a la Stormfather) so he killed them, then compressed their investiture into the Cognitive Realm. Normally the bulk of a Shard's Investiture is in the Spiritual Realm, which is why most magic systems are location independent. With almost all of D&D's investiture in the Cognitive Realm, that power became location dependent, since location has meaning in the CR. This is mostly drawn from the description of Sel in Arcanum Unbounded. Also D&D's power, being opposites, are locked in turmoil and conflict in the CR. This is why it is so dangerous to enter Sel's CR. However, since then D&D's investiture has become a single entity, referred to as the Dor, which is in a constant state of flux and turmoil. In some ways you could almost say that the investiture is under a ton of pressure and seeks any exit it can find. This is the idea behind AonDor. If you wanted to rebuild the Shards, they would have to be a single shard. They are no longer separate. I'm also guessing that the state of flux and conflict that the Dor is in is why the Dor hasn't formed a consciousness/sentience. Also, Elantrian magic is also tied to individual people, geography and language. This makes a ton of sense when you realise that the Cognitive Realm is shaped by how people perceive things. My guess is that the lay of the land, plus the people's perception of certain things, ideas, and language have made it such that the Dor has different flavors/types based on what part of the CR it's in. The different flavors are distinct enough that the way you access their power will differ from flavor to flavor. Of you move to the other side of the world, then there isn't any Investiture of the power flavor, so you can't use the investiture. I'm also guessing that that flavor has a bit to do with the Spirit Web of the individual, which would explain other things. Regardless, Elantrian magic is largely shaped by the fact that it's in the CR.

As for Mistings and Mistborn, I'm not sure. the Bands of Mourning made someone a full Feruchemist and a full Allomancer for a limited use. Wouldn't it mean that you could build similar metal minds with only one or two metals, thus temporarily making you a misting in two different powers? Or what about Spook who through hemalurgy was able to burn both Pewter and Tin at the same time? I think that the whole "Only misting in one power" only has to do with genetically inheriting allomantic abilities. I also suspect that if you were to alloy a Lerasium bead, it would allow you to be a permanent multi-misting. Your Spirit-Web theory just doesn't it with Hemalurgic and Feruchemic acquisition of Allomantic powers.

However, there are a couple pieces of your theory that will probably merge with my headcannon. However, I tend to just think of your Spirit-Web as being almost like a realmatic equivalent of your DNA. It is a diagram of who you are, and of your past (possibly your future too). Thus changing your spirit-web would involve changing reality, as reality would adapt to fit the model that your spirit-web give it.

[Steeldancer]

On 10/6/2017 at 4:13 AM, Metalrift said:

I like most of this, so I'll comment on some of it, although my understanding of it is mostly just headcanon.

I like this analogy, because I like the theory that Investiture (or Connection) has wave-like properties and if that is the case, it would make sense to me that changes in the spirit web's connection could be compared to chemistry. As I understand it, Snapping as an allomancer establishes connections to Preservation (the ones that enable Investiture to flow to the allomancer when a metal is burnt) so new connections are being formed from the allomancer's sDNA by Snapping.

I disagree with this, because I see Intent and Identity as different things. Intent is like a character of the shards' investiture that determines what it does and how it acts, while Identity is more like a tag associated with Investiture that distinguishes individual blocks of Investiture.

All shards are able to see the future, as they exist primarily in the spiritual realm and can see into it. Anyone who sees into the spiritual realm can see through time, although their ability to predict the future varies. I agree with Calderis' view that the intent of shards determines their ability to see the future. What you say about Feruchemy seems to be accurate, although I can't judge its accuracy, as I don't know much about it. I thought that shards were more like a great quantity of investiture, with a specific intent, and don't have much in the way of a spirit web unless left alone for a long time, but can fuse with a person,filling their soirit web with power.

Once again, I can't really comment on Feruchemy. As for the difference between mistings and mistborn, I would say that mistborn have more Connection to Preservation but it's spread out between many allomancy circuits, while mistings only have one allomancy circuit. I don't think mistborn have only one allomancy circuit. Feruchemists would have similar circuits, but made from the investiture of Preservation and Ruin, with their intents mixed together.

What caused you to change your mind?

My wild guess is that Fortune affects your ability to actively shape your future, without any other action, so like everyone has a connection to what may happen in the future so by manipulating one's fortune, it is possible to increase the likelyhood of desired occurences, because they're more connected to someone. This is just wild speculation though. I'm fairly sure all possible futures are contained in the Spiritual Realm, so fortune is Spiritual.

 

On 10/6/2017 at 8:52 AM, Metalrift said:

Having thought about it more, I now think that there is one Mistborn circuit, but it's made of many parallel circuits. This, to me, goes towards both explaining why there are no natural double misting so and why only one power can be spiked at a time.

What did you think of my idea for the nature of fortune? Personally, I'm not sure about the use of the word connection. Do you have any ideas for other words?

Interesting. I'll comment on this later when I have more time. 

[Catladyman]

On 10/5/2017 at 1:33 PM, Steeldancer said:

I'll take you up on a point here. 

Fortune, is WEIRD. I cannot put it into any sort of meaningful context in the spiritual realm. . 

While I'm definitely not realmatically-proficient enough to comment on your other points, here is how I see Fortune...

If everyone has several possible futures branching out from them, Fortune allows a person to someone draw themselves towards/away from points in time where important convergences occur. For example, a Stormlight character's reappearance probably had significant consequences for a large number of Rosharans, allowing a certain Worldhopper to note than something important was going to happen at that place at a certain point in time. 

Similarly, a Feruchemist tapping fortune would gain a sense of these convergences, allowing them to manipulate events to bring them closer to these collectively important moments. Filling a Fortune metal mind, on the other hand, leaves a Feruchemist blind to the natural instinct (Spiritual) that guides them towards these events.

[Steeldancer]

On 10/6/2017 at 4:13 AM, Metalrift said:

I like most of this, so I'll comment on some of it, although my understanding of it is mostly just headcanon.

I like this analogy, because I like the theory that Investiture (or Connection) has wave-like properties and if that is the case, it would make sense to me that changes in the spirit web's connection could be compared to chemistry. As I understand it, Snapping as an allomancer establishes connections to Preservation (the ones that enable Investiture to flow to the allomancer when a metal is burnt) so new connections are being formed from the allomancer's sDNA by Snapping.

I disagree with this, because I see Intent and Identity as different things. Intent is like a character of the shards' investiture that determines what it does and how it acts, while Identity is more like a tag associated with Investiture that distinguishes individual blocks of Investiture.

All shards are able to see the future, as they exist primarily in the spiritual realm and can see into it. Anyone who sees into the spiritual realm can see through time, although their ability to predict the future varies. I agree with Calderis' view that the intent of shards determines their ability to see the future. What you say about Feruchemy seems to be accurate, although I can't judge its accuracy, as I don't know much about it. I thought that shards were more like a great quantity of investiture, with a specific intent, and don't have much in the way of a spirit web unless left alone for a long time, but can fuse with a person,filling their soirit web with power.

Once again, I can't really comment on Feruchemy. As for the difference between mistings and mistborn, I would say that mistborn have more Connection to Preservation but it's spread out between many allomancy circuits, while mistings only have one allomancy circuit. I don't think mistborn have only one allomancy circuit. Feruchemists would have similar circuits, but made from the investiture of Preservation and Ruin, with their intents mixed together.

What caused you to change your mind?

My wild guess is that Fortune affects your ability to actively shape your future, without any other action, so like everyone has a connection to what may happen in the future so by manipulating one's fortune, it is possible to increase the likelyhood of desired occurences, because they're more connected to someone. This is just wild speculation though. I'm fairly sure all possible futures are contained in the Spiritual Realm, so fortune is Spiritual.

This idea is fascinating to me, and explains fortune pretty well. Take an upvote, and you're now my head canon. 

[The One Who Connects]

On 10/7/2017 at 11:38 PM, Catladyman said:

Similarly, a Feruchemist tapping fortune would gain a sense of these convergences, allowing them to manipulate events to bring them closer to these collectively important moments. Filling a Fortune metal mind, on the other hand, leaves a Feruchemist blind to the natural instinct (Spiritual) that guides them towards these events.

I don't see how storing Fortune makes one any different from when not storing it in your example. Tapping gives a very clear benefit, but when storing? Wouldn't the Feruchemist already be blind to the SR Convergences like the rest of us?

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

I don't see how storing Fortune makes one any different from when not storing it in your example. Tapping gives a very clear benefit, but when storing? Wouldn't the Feruchemist already be blind to the SR Convergences like the rest of us?

I think he's saying it's those basic "something good/bad is about to happen" instincts we all get. 

So when tapping your more heavily aware of those, and while storing you could be in the midst of a brewing riot and not notice... Which if I understand correctly I disagree with. 

[Andy92]

When I first saw Fortune in the Mistborn series my mind gravitated towards leveling up your character's Luck in an RPG like Dark Souls. In that game you may get hit with a sword that has a 30% chance of causing you to bleed out, but if your Luck increases, it can reduce that chance of a bleed out to say, 15%. 

I always kind of assumed Fortune was similar to this in that if someone tapped Fortune in a fight, it would cause the person using it to land and dodge attacks with a higher probability. I envision it like statistical probability really. Tapping Fortune would increase the probability of success while decreasing the probability of failure, from a statistics reference. 

Even though probability is a little harder to measure than something like weight, it can still be measured. Like a coin flip from a non-biased coin would always give you a 50% probability of landing heads. That's measurable, and maybe tapping Fortune could change your likelihood of getting heads to 60%. Now, the probability of landing a punch in a fight...that's a little more difficult to determine the default probability of. It would change depending on the skill of the fighter/skill of who they're fighting. But once you had some sort of probability determined for landing a punch, tapping Fortune could raise the odds of the punch landing successfully.  

Brandon may have an entirely different idea for how Fortune works, but this general idea was what came to my mind when I first read about it. 

Edited October 9, 2017 by Andy92

[The One Who Connects]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I think he's saying it's those basic "something good/bad is about to happen" instincts we all get. 

So when tapping your more heavily aware of those, and while storing you could be in the midst of a brewing riot and not notice... Which if I understand correctly I disagree with. 

So to you, it looks like he's saying the spectrum is Hoidsense(Tapping), Average Human, Blithering Idiot(Storing). That's.. hrmm... This feels wrong to me, but I can't put into words the why of the matter.. Let's pull them back here to discuss it. Explain your disagreements if you want.

26 minutes ago, Andy92 said:

I always kind of assumed Fortune was similar to this in that if someone tapped Fortune in a fight, it would cause the person using it to land and dodge attacks with a higher probability. I envision it like statistical probability really. Tapping Fortune would increase the probability of success while decreasing the probability of failure, from a statistics reference. 

The problem with that is the number of things going on at once. That Fortune could be increasing your chance to land a blow, or increasing your chance to dodge their swing, or increasing your odds of finding a penny on the ground. How do you tell the power of fortune what to increase? Does it increase them all at once? etc...

[Andy92]

1 minute ago, The One Who Connects said:

The problem with that is the number of things going on at once. That Fortune could be increasing your chance to land a blow, or increasing your chance to dodge their swing, or increasing your odds of finding a penny on the ground. How do you tell the power of fortune what to increase? Does it increase them all at once? etc...

I know what you're saying. I still think it's possible Fortune could revolve around probabilities, but maybe it's fine tuned a bit to define what probabilities can actually be altered. In an RPG it's a little more straightforward because you can program "Luck counters X, Y, Z." It'd all depend on how Brandon defined what it could do, if that's even similar to how Fortune works at all. 

[Calderis]

12 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Let's pull them back here to discuss it. Explain your disagreements if you want.

@Andy92 I know that what Hoid does uses the equivalent of feruchemical fortune, but the way that it was described makes me feel like the sense being stored in your hypothetical is a product of connection.

You can feel the mood of a place by your connection to it, and the people in it. Hoidsense tells him where he needs to be. Not just that where he's at is going to have things happen. 

They feel distinct to me. That said, I have absolutely no clue how fortune works.