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[OB] Oathbringer chapters 16-18


Mestiv

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Well, light-yellow spren confirmed voidspren, Dalinar remembers his wife (related to becoming a KR?), Squires can capture, we feel some sympathy for the freeparsh, the queen of Iri hates Dalinar, and all our theories about the copycat go down the toilet.

Good chapters.

 

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Just now, Calderis said:

The second murderer is a chronic copycat one-off? What in damnation? 

 

No one expects the copycat murderer ! Among his weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to copying !

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3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The second murderer is a chronic copycat one-off? What in damnation? 

I was actually serious (except for the facetious name) in proposing an Unmade that specifically echoes murders committed in a blind rage. Most likely via possession.

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Some good stuff in this chapter:

Quote

This weapon, instead, was made directly from Honor’s soul, then given to the Heralds. It is also the mark of an oath, but a different type—and does not have the mind to scream on its own.

“And Shardplate?” Dalinar asked.

Related, but different, the Stormfather rumbled. You haven’t spoken the oaths required to know more.

Looks to me like Honorblades are a part of the Oathpact, between Honor and his Heralds.

Also, this is a point against the Shardplate-as-spren theory. Like Honorblades, it's looking like that Shardplate is crafted directly from Investiture, not from spren manifesting as metal.

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No, the Stormfather said. He is far greater than I, but the power of ancient Adonalsium permeates him. And controls him. Odium is a force like pressure, gravitation, or the movement of time. These things cannot break their own rules. Nor can he.

Hold up. Time's not a Surge. Why list it with two other Surges?

Quote

Your enemy is not a man like you, the Stormfather replied, voice rumbling, thoughtful. Even
 frightened. He does not age. He feels. He is angry. But this does not change, and his rage does not cool. Epochs can pass, and he will remain the same.

To fight directly might coax out forces that could hurt him, as he has been hurt before. Those scars do not heal. To pick a champion, then lose, will only cost him time. He has that in plenitude. He still will not agree easily, but it is possible he will agree. If presented with the option in the right moment, the right way. Then he will be bound.

“And we win
”

Time, the Stormfather said. Which, though dross to him, is the most valuable thing a man can have.

Those forces are definitely other Shards. I'm quite surprised by how Stormfather describes the champion approach... all it does is drag things out, it's not an actual way to defeat Odium.

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For now, this tube was empty. Dalinar knelt and lowered the sword into the hole, sliding it into a stone sheath he’d cut in the side. The upper lip of the hole shielded the protruding hilt from sight; you’d have to reach down and feel in the hole to find the Honorblade.

The Honorblade is in the toilet. Did not see that one coming.

Quote

What will you do with it? the Stormfather asked as Dalinar entered the empty corridors. It is a weapon beyond parallel. The gift of a god. With it, you would be a Windrunner unoathed. And more. More that men do not understand, and cannot. Like a Herald, nearly.

What else do the Heralds get from Honorblades?

Quote

“What?” Kadash said, clanging his blade against Dalinar’s. “Surprised someone is willing to side with evil, Dalinar? That someone would pick darkness, superstition, and heresy instead of the Almighty’s light?”

“I am not a heretic.” Dalinar slapped Kadash’s blade away—but not before the ardent scored a touch on Dalinar’s arm. The hit was hard, and though the swords were blunted, that would bruise for certain.

This throws some fuel back on the Dalinar-as-Oathbringer-author idea. Coupled with the focus on experience in the latter two epigraphs this week (Jasnah isn't a heretic because of experience, but because of reason), it's now back to a tossup in my mind.

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Evi. He could hear his wife’s name.

And he suddenly remembered her face.

So, why? This was the first time we've seen him Surgebind; maybe drawing in that much Stormlight healed damage in his mind? I thought maybe the painrial could have played a role, but he had it on over his uniform, which he took off to spar, so I don't think he was wearing it anymore. I'm a little concerned that it might be connected to what happens in the next chapter - Odium's influence restoring the Listeners' lost minds. What the Nightwatcher removed, Odium may have brought back. That would be quite disturbing, since it would show Odium's influence in Urithiru.

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The vines pulled back, blossoms closing. The girl, however, knew to squat at the side and wait, hands poised, until the flowers reopened—then she snatched one in each hand, her giggles echoing across the plain. Joyspren followed her like blue leaves as she returned, giving Kaladin a wide berth.

Listeners attract spren. I guess those were the red lights that were seen when they raided the village a few chapters back - some sort of spren they were attracting. (Angerspren, maybe?)

Quote

“The spren is guiding them,” Kaladin said under his breath. “Syl, this spren must be
”

“From him,” she whispered, wrapping her arms around herself and growing small—actively shrinking to about two-thirds her normal size. “Voidspren.”

I'm still a little wary, but I Syl has had a good chance to study this spren, so if she says it's a Voidspren, it must be a Voidspren. I wonder how it's intelligent in this realm. It doesn't seem to have bonded with any of these parshmen like the stormspren had with the Parshendi. Where is its intelligence from? And where is it leading them?

Quote

“The Everstorm,” Syl said. “Power has filled the holes in their souls, bridging the gaps. They didn’t just wake, Kaladin. They’ve been healed, Connection refounded, Identity restored. There’s more to this than we ever realized. Somehow when you conquered them, you stole their ability to change forms. You literally ripped off a piece of their souls and locked it away.” She turned sharply. “He’s coming back. I will stay nearby, in case you need a Blade.”

Realmatic words, quite meaningful, although I'm having a hard time grasping all the implications. Gavilar says they trapped a spren, but here Syl says that their souls had al been damaged. Is this a singular spren that was a part of every Listener's soul? Does that mean one of Odium's spren has taken that place, or has the healing power of the Everstorm (even Odium's Investiture can heal, it looks like) caused a jumper around the part of the soul that is normally filled by the Ancient Spren? Can these Listeners even take forms, or has that part of their soul been bypassed?

I'm also not sure what's going on with Connection and Identity here. What are they Connected to? The planet? One of the Shards? The loss and restoration of Identity is also very different from the way we've seen Identity function in Mistborn, where it is a personal key to magic. What does it have to do with their personalities? Lots of deep Realmatics, here, that I'll need to mull over for a bit.

Quote

“All’s Alley,” he said. “Keep away from there. Someone got stabbed behind one of the taverns just last night there. They found him dead.”

No one got stabbed. Is this an honest mistake? Or is this a setup of some kind?

Quote

“He did,” Betha said. “That barmaid was strangled the exact same way as Rem, body dropped in the same position. Even had the marks of his ring scraping her chin like Rem did.” Her light brown eyes had a hollow cast to them, like she was staring at the body again, as it had been found. “Exact same marks. Uncanny.”

Looks like this copycat isn't targeting Adolin in particular, but copying all kinds of murders. Why? Is it some sort of spren? Are these "bubbles of evil" of a sort, Odium's influence manifesting? Something ancient in Urithiru (Since that's where the copycat murders started to happen), like a fabrial or a spren?

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Chapter 16

Shardplate... "related, but different". Ok, I'm taking that as a very ironic statement hinting that Shardplate is from the truespren's lesser cousin spren.

I REALLY wanted Dalinar to remember his conversation in TWoK when Hoid asked him if he knew the word Adonalsium.

So even if they get Odium to pick a champion and they win, all it buys is some time and Odium loses nothing? Ouch.

Ooooo a tidereader! More Iriali history, please :D

So Kadash is suggesting the visions could be the product of the princes of the Voidbringers... fair enough, the Unmade could very well do something like that. But is Kadash then suggesting that the Stormfather is one of those princes? Because that wouldn't go down well.

There are a couple things I can think of for why Dalinar can now remember Evi. First, actively using Stormlight is new. He's held it before, but I don't think he's used a surge before (I believe the thing with Shallan was his resonance, not a surge). Second, and in my opinion more likely, he just spoke his next oath and the Honor investiture level is now high enough to interfere with Cultivation's influence over his mind:

I don't think it happened before the line, "At the same time, Dalinar felt he’d needed this. He couldn’t explain why."

But it did happen by the time he remembered Evi. The only thing that might constitute an oath? It would have to be something that could be said even in the first days of the Radiants. Ishar may have had a hand in crafting them, and he was the Bondsmith patron, so... "yes, I accept the authority of the Heralds."

That's my best guess.

Chapter 17

Children... huh. Good call!

That card game sounds like an awesome mix of Chess and Magic. I shall call it "Mess".

Harsh insight into Parshman life before the storm.

Syl is so SMART! Wow that's ingenious! Hiding in plain sight from a Voidspren :)

Chapter 18

Ok... if this whole thing becomes 'Shallan Lightweaves to better understand their enemy, but loses herself and becomes the champion, only to face off against Honor's champion and her betrothed, Adolin. Whoever wins the fight, they both lose, and Odium reigns. But wait! Odium doesn't understand love, and Adolin reaches Shallan and pulls her back into the light! Honor wins!' I quit.

Shallan has tasted lye before? :D

Oh my... wondering if she killed her brothers... I mean, I certainly don't trust Mraize, but that's a tangent, and... oh Shallan. "Can't you tell?"

Haha, she may be able to heal her safehand, but she's going to need a new glove!

I'm just throwing my lot in with the bloke that said the copy-murder thing was the influence of an Unmade. I no longer think anyone specifically watched and reproduced Adolin and Ned's actions. I'm guessing it's one of the less sapient Unmade.

Man that segment was a rush! Looking forward to reading all your thoughts!

Edited by Darkness
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Not having read the comments yet:

Dalinar's chapter was the most boring. Still going nowhere, probably will promise Adolin's plate next time. The best part of it was that at least he defined his own position with the church. And used his surgebinding for the real first time. Adhesion? I'm hoping that his sparring while having the chat with the Iri is a sign that he will realize that whatever he has to do, he is not a politician and will never be. Politicking really bores me at this point.

Kaladin. Fun, but predictable. Voidspren, feeling sorry for the parshmen, and starts taking over the group/gaining their confidence. Most interesting tidbit was the knowledge that he couldn't see the Voidspren, I had expected KR to be able to do so. 

Shallan. Best chapter of the week. Shallan making mistakes and getting drunk was adorable. Unfortunately I got the impression she is unravelling fast. I think from what we've seen of our Radiants, they are so broken that if it weren't for their spren to act as their confidantes they would be staring hollow-eyed at a wall all day. Even Kaladin who is quite balanced at the moment, and he still panicked when he thought Syl had regressed again. Although maybe this perspective is just colored by Kaladin and Shallan been our main Radiants, and they both have huge issues. 

I see the Ghostbloods are as big a power as expected among the underworld. And the double murders...Maybe there is merit to the suggestion floated somewhere that there is a spren or Unmade in Urithiru making identical follow-up murders.

Oh, and Pattern is also disturbed a bit by the personas Shallan crafts, so maybe Lightweavers did not do it the same way. 

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Dang, loved Dalinar physically sparring with a priest as they verbally sparred about Dalinars heresy. Well done Sanderson. Dalinars chapter was flawless.

 

Just tell me what makes the Heralds so awesome and what Honorblades have that make them special??? 

Also, the Nightwatchers magic ain't got nothing on surgebinding son!

(Rest In Peace Shshsh :()

 

Syl, stop being a punk.

 

Pattern, go get your man! You deserve to be happy.

 

Lastly......NOW you guys can worry about Shallan. 

19 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

What did the bondsmiths DO? How did they rip off a part of the soul... of an entire species? How is that even possible? 

Likely related to the rythms (the bond that connected them) and their bond to the Unmade.

Hell, Isher apparently had the ability to wipe out Surgebinders so yeah, Bondsmiths are Powerful.

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2 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Not having read the comments yet:

Dalinar's chapter was the most boring. Still going nowhere, probably will promise Adolin's plate next time. The best part of it was that at least he defined his own position with the church. And used his surgebinding for the real first time. Adhesion? I'm hoping that his sparring while having the chat with the Iri is a sign that he will realize that whatever he has to do, he is not a politician and will never be. Politicking really bores me at this point.

Kaladin. Fun, but predictable. Voidspren, feeling sorry for the parshmen, and starts taking over the group/gaining their confidence. Most interesting tidbit was the knowledge that he couldn't see the Voidspren, I had expected KR to be able to do so. 

Shallan. Best chapter of the week. Shallan making mistakes and getting drunk was adorable. Unfortunately I got the impression she is unravelling fast. I think from what we've seen of our Radiants, they are so broken that if it weren't for their spren to act as their confidantes they would be staring hollow-eyed at a wall all day. Even Kaladin who is quite balanced at the moment, and he still panicked when he thought Syl had regressed again. Although maybe this perspective is just colored by Kaladin and Shallan been our main Radiants, and they both have huge issues. 

I see the Ghostbloods are as big a power as expected among the underworld. And the double murders...Maybe there is merit to the suggestion floated somewhere that there is a spren or Unmade in Urithiru making identical follow-up murders.

Oh, and Pattern is also disturbed a bit by the personas Shallan crafts, so maybe Lightweavers did not do it the same way. 

Dalinars was boring? Did you TOTALLY SKIP THE WHOLE EVI THING????????

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29 minutes ago, PunSpren said:

Emphasis mine, This is new info to me! The thrill had driven the last unified Alethkar to glory........ interesting

 

And perhaps even more important is this a hint???

If that isnt The Lie.....  What is??? Emphasis mine again 

I reread what Mraize said to Shallan and if it’s not the bit about her brothers, or his talk about having “answers” for Shallan about her father joining the Ghostbloods or her brother seeking the Skybreakers, then it’s...

The statement that Jasnah had killed several Ghostbloods? (But I totally believed that)

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So, many interesting tidbits here. The most important question, however, is the following:

what the heck do hornheaters put in their drinks!?!?!?!?

In WoR, when Rock suggest the bridgemen try horneater lager, they say it melts their teeth. Alcohol alone will not do that; the only thing I can think that dissolves teeth is acid, and even coca cola, at pH 2.5, won't deal significant damage unless you drink liters of it daily. Still in WoR the barmaid said they don't have it because it melts their mugs. Now, the only thing I know corroding glass is either a very strong base, but we're talking pH > 14, or hydrofluoric acid, which is more toxic than cyanide. And now we're being told that it is also a very effective paint remover, and that more than a few small cups will kill a normal person. This resembles a mixture of organic solvents, like turpentine.

This chemist would give something to have a bottle of horneater liquor and full access to his old university lab.

 

On a side note, I liked Dalinar describing his young self as "one in a long line of idiots given the ability to kill people too easily ". It pretty much sums up the opinion I got from his flashbacks too.

1 hour ago, Steeldancer said:

Moving on, goodness Shallan is freaking me out. Horneater lager? Stabbing her hand? I'm concerned about her health. That's cannot be good for you to go and drink that stuff, even if stormlight heals her.

 

Why not? She can heal from practically anything. She's merely making use of it. Reminds me a bit of wayne and his "spoiled tomato" method of infiltration.

Incidentally, if people think you're unhinged and dangerous, they are less likely to resist you. Unless they are really motivated and willing to risk getting hurt, but that was unlikely. and with stormlight shallan wasn't in danger anyway.

37 minutes ago, Stark said:

And can we talk about the Ghostblood's for a minute?  Setting aside the naming convention of your average ten year old, how f^@ked up are these people?  That your above standard thugs are petrified of them, and it is completely acceptable that one of them would STAB A HAND TO A TABLE THROUGH THEIR OWN HAND! And that is getting off easy!  What the rust.  And Shallan has not made the connection that these super messed up psychos, who admit to trying to have her and her mentor killed have her entire living family essentially hostage under the guise of bringing them to her?  How can she not see that this will not end well.

 

She asks Pattern if she killed her family and replaced them with illusions. No, Shallan, you didn't.  But you may well have killed them by pulling the Ghostblood thread to see where it leads.

She did what she had to. More than her family is at stake, and she could not know how events would have unfolded when she started them anyway

33 minutes ago, PunSpren said:

"Set into the leather, it also had a painrial—a gemstone fabrial that would take pain from him if he pressed his hand on it. Navani had been working on various forms of pain-related fabrials for use by surgeons, and had mentioned using him as a test subject."

 

I cant say exactly why...... But this makes me nervous ......

Could be some kind of foreshadowing, dalinar out of stormlight using the painrial...

30 minutes ago, Ramza1890 said:

Has Dalinar's boon ever been specifically stated? If it was prowess on the battlefield then perhaps his aversion to taking the field over the past book has led to his being able to remember his wife? Because he isn't using the boon the bane is slowly fading.

Also, Kaladin is going to be such a cool Windrunner with a bunch of Parshendi and Bridgemen for squires.

Dalina'r boon CANNOT be battle prowess. We've seen him in flashbacks from way before he went to the nightwatcher, he had more than enough prowess unaided at the time.

27 minutes ago, Stark said:

I really hope that Navani doesn't Marie Curie herself with all her self testing...  Dalinar can't make her a squire to stormlight away any of the radiation damage she may be doing to herself in her unprotected experiments.

 

I'll grant yo, Stormlight seems less radioactive than other energy sources, but still.  Very little good comes to those who use themselves, their friends and family as guinea pigs.

 

But hey, she did make him a pretty sweet watch.  Wonder how often it needs to be infused??

On roshar they are barely starting the scientific revolution. Their scientist are amateurs, because their society lacks the necessary experience and cultural background to form professional ones. They don't know yet the dangers associated with it.

18 minutes ago, Ryder said:

It's interesting to me that Dalinar's first clear memories of Evi return after he surgebinds for the first time, although we've seen his memory improving since he first remember part of the Rift scene.  I'm wondering if his increasing bond with the Stormfather is somehow interfering with the Nightwatcher's powers.  We know that investiture interferes with/resists other investiture.  Maybe as the cracks in Dalinar's soul are filled from his nahel bond it's pushing out or rejecting whatever it is the Nightwatcher did to him.

I was thinking of a similar reason there.

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17 minutes ago, Emerald101 said:

Well, light-yellow spren confirmed voidspren, Dalinar remembers his wife (related to becoming a KR?), Squires can capture, we feel some sympathy for the freeparsh, the queen of Iri hates Dalinar, and all our theories about the copycat go down the toilet.

Good chapters.

 

Technically, we don't know it's a voidspren. That's what Kaladin and Syl believe, but I still half-believe that there is actually a Radiant among this group of people. I dunno, I'd have imagined Voidspren as less... helpful.

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There is totally an Unmade at the Tower and I'm sure it's responsible foe the copy killings.

 

How long was that Unmade who created the Thrill just laying low in Alethkar radiating low key madness?

 

I think there is likely an Unmade at the center of the Everstorm as well.

 

 

 

 

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My thoughts, without reading your posts (I will do that after posting this):

-If I understand Stormfather correctly, besting his champion won't defeat him forever, but just hold him back a while. That was new.

-Stormfather can laugh. Huh. 

-Rial was pretty cool, I liked his character. Hope we see more of him later. 

-Zahel/Vasher is back, and so are his color-themed metaphors.

-The Dalinar vs Kadash scene was really cool. Looks like the Vorin Church story will be a big one. And Brandons religious discussion is great, as always. I like Kadash too. He is a good character, despite lack of page-time.

-DALINAR REMEMBERS HIS WIFE!!!! STORMS!

-The Irali are potential antagonists. Interesting. Wonder how Adolin will take to leaving his plate (though he could just take Renarins, so it shouldn't be a biggie).

-Voidspren. I am not yet convinced that the yellow spren is of Odium. In that case, it seriously needs to get better at its job. Also, the free Parshmen are not Voidbringers as previously thought, and so their spren might not be a Voidspren. Maybe Odium sent the wrong storm or something?

-I defenitely feel for the Parshmen too. 

-Shallans identities will defenitely be a problem. If Pattern of all people tells you that your lies are messed up, then you should probably give it serious consideration. 

-Pattern, by the way. Pattern is the best. He likes Adolin, he is chill when it comes to dead Shardblades, he is accepting. Syl should learn from him.

-These murders are way creepy. I am starting to doubt the two major theories (Ialai or Ghostbloods) right now. 

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Kaladin's chapter humanized the Voidbringers, and explains what the Everstorm did. Beyond the questions brought about concerning their guiding spren, I found this one the most boring of the three this week. 

Dalinar's chapter... The looming confrontation between Dalinar and the Devotaries looks worse and worse. The diplomatic efforts of the Voidbringers are concerning, and seriously... The Nightwatcher's alterations shouldn't be fixable by Stormlight or oath progression... Otherwise Lift shouldn't be possible. What in damnation is going on with Dalinar remembering his wife now? 

Shallan... Veil is more interesting to me than Shallan herself... But also the growth of veil into her own persona is worrying... And the confusion of Shallan about what is real and what isn't... Shallan is in serious trouble, and until now Pattern didn't realize just how much. 

And Urithiru is the Overlook Hotel. That's just great. 

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Oh, boy... it sounds like Shallan is starting to go to a really dark place in this book, much like Kaladin did in WoR.  It sounds like she's developing a serious case of MPD or dissociative identity disorder.  I understand that she's trying to avoid coping with the Truth of her mother's death, but Brandon, you're going really dark really fast with this.

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4 minutes ago, kiapet said:

Technically, we don't know it's a voidspren. That's what Kaladin and Syl believe, but I still half-believe that there is actually a Radiant among this group of people. I dunno, I'd have imagined Voidspren as less... helpful.

Isn't there WoB that no Parshmen were Radiants?

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17 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

Dalinars was boring? Did you TOTALLY SKIP THE WHOLE EVI THING????????

Ok, that was the best part...but then it ended!!!

I'm worried he will now start forgetting Navani, as for some reason the idea that stormlight healed him doesn't really click. As it would imply the Nightwatcher "injures" you.

Edited by WhiteLeeopard
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3 minutes ago, kiapet said:

Technically, we don't know it's a voidspren. That's what Kaladin and Syl believe, but I still half-believe that there is actually a Radiant among this group of people. I dunno, I'd have imagined Voidspren as less... helpful.

We don't know what it's guiding them to. My guess is that Odium hasn't taken control of the freeparsh because he wants to make use of all the potential hatred they've got, and he's using spren like the one we saw to organize them into something nefarious.

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3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Dalinar's chapter... The looming confrontation between Dalinar and the Devotaries looks worse and worse. The diplomatic efforts of the Voidbringers are concerning, and seriously... The Nightwatcher's alterations shouldn't be fixable by Stormlight or oath progression... Otherwise Lift shouldn't be possible. What in damnation is going on with Dalinar remembering his wife now? 

That's a good point.  I'm still of the mind that the Everstorm filled the holes in Dalinar's mind.  The only way I can reconcile that with Lift, is Lift (as far as we know, I think) didn't have anything removed from her.  Just altered.  Dalinar most definitely seemed to have something removed by the Nightwatcher, which based on Kaladin's chapter, the Everstorm may have filled.

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