TWD - Chapter 12 plus interlude VI - kais 09/25/17 4032 words

[kais]

I'd particularly like help on:

A) is the interlude too long and if so, suggestions on where to cut
B.) Is S's motivation for leaving alchemy behind understandable, relatable, and reasonable? Do you feel S's pain? Please be brutally honest, because this chapter has to work, or the rest of the book doesn't.

Thank you, as always!

[industrialistDragon]

You have my hackjob on the interlude on another platform. :3

 

As I go

"was taut from scabs" do not understand this. did Sorin scratch themselves bloody AND heal up overnight? Am I missing something from last chapter? I'm assuming the self-harm is worked into the other chapters more? This casual reference seems to imply it. I'd be more willing to believe Sorin reopened old scabs or scratched the arms to the point of raised weeping welts over the course of a night, unless there's something I'm missing here.

 "to kiss her, right there, on the glacier" Um, weren't they doing just that last chapter? Like, totally nomming on each other? Sure, there were plot reasons for it, but still. Smooching on the glacier has totes happened so I'm not quite getting why Sorin's all "the glacier is a strange place to be kissing"....

". They refuse to be left behind by mechanization" I'd think they'd refuse to let their families starve for  the preservation of a glorified union, but that's just me.

This lake section is reading much better now. There's more interesting conflict and the lake is better integrated here than in the previous chapter.  There are still some rough places that could do with a pass to tighten them up, but it's a big improvement.

Yeah, definitely going to need a pass for awkward sentence formation....

Overall

It works better than the previous version by a long shot, but it still needs some clean up and tightening. Also I feel like it'll fit better with the new chapters than with the old ones I'm remembering, so that might be affecting things too. 
 

[rdpulfer]

- Her motivation for leaving alchemy is all three but I feel like it needs to be built up in the previous chapters. It feels a little weird Magda is just asking this now.

- I like the tension between Sameer and Sorin.

- And I really like the whole conflict with the lake, though the timing feels a little bit too coincidental this occurs right after Sorin and Magda discuss her feelings on alchemy.

- Okay, I liked the ending and the revelation for Sorin. I agree that it needs some expanding - it lacks the impact of the rest of the chapter because Sorin is telling the reader how she feels rather than telling someone like Magda - but the rationale behind it really does work. 

[Mandamon]

This is better, but I'm still not sold on the industrialization = bad. Also, S's revelation drags a bit. Could be trimmed.

A) I'm not really sure what this interlude adds. We already know S's found the fungus.

B ) It's better, but not quite yet. I have some notes below. I think we need to have the "thesis" of this dropped earlier in the story so that it makes more sense here and we can get t to the revelation quicker.

pg 2: "Like a chemist. They’re not even a guild"
--do you go more into what a chemist does? Is this something coming from the industrialization?

pg 5: “It was more than one blanket, and all of them looked identical. Like they’d fallen from a pack of yet more identical blankets.”
--This took me a couple reads to realize the importance--that if the blankets were exactly the same, then they were manufactured. I think this could be punched up. Maybe something more important than a blanket?

pg 6: "I need to see those textiles!"
--Next, on CSI Sorpsi...

pg 6: Seems like missing potential that S refuses to interact with the lake and then Sam just tells M what she wants.

pg 7: Sam makes a good case for the factories again. Every time I read this I have a hard time summoning any sympathy for the plight of traditional guilds, especially if the trained members can just switch over to using new technology. What is it that makes the old guilds special? Ornamentation? Finer fitting?

pg 8: "If you wanted to save the guilds, you’d work with the new technology, not against it.”
--uh, yeah. This.

pg 8: falling into the lake is a bit plot-ful.

pg 10: S's epiphany about magic/alchemy still seems forced. I'm not sure what it needs. Maybe some trimming to get to the revelation quicker?

pg 11: "but they were both penalized by Iana when she took the kingdom. They’re the two unbound guilds. Their paths and histories are intertwined."
--ah, this finally makes a lot more sense.

Interlude:
pg 13: At 16, would S still play these games?

pg 15: "We can dance at night and the sailors will see our rotations as blinking."
--confused by this. Do the mushrooms rotate?

Not sure that this interlude adds a lot. We already know S discovered the elf's cup. Does seeing it add anything?

[Robinski]

Comments.

• “around my pad” – I guess this this is a sleeping pad, but out sounded a bit like groovy pad (apartment), just from the phrasing.
• “Like a chemist” – I’m kind of surprised to read this. I thought this was going to be the ‘big’ discovery near the end, that there was this other thing called chemistry and S was (one of) the first.
• “rising desiring to kiss her” – typo.
• “They’re the two unbound guilds. Their paths and histories are intertwined” – this feels like a big thing to have escaped S’s notice over the years. Maybe?
• “I tossed the morels from my basket, dumped the cups and the branch in” – I don’t buy this. You’ve spent all the time collecting morels which are going to be your dinner, and which your mother is expecting you to return with, and you just through them out? No. Surely, the branch, which was small enough to close their hand around, a twig, I thought, can you go on top. Foraging basket is fairly large, and flat? I think S needs to come back with dinner and the branch, personally.

I feel like I don’t say enough good things about your writing, and that I'm always concentrating on the blips (as I see them). I think it’s because I'm just accustomed to the natural, easy flow of narrative and dialogue, the very engaged and engaging characters and a world that always is full of interest and intrigue. And the sauce, don’t forget the sauce.

Nice work.

<R>

 

Supplementary:

(a) While I agree with @Mandamon that the interlude does add a lot (S's discovery of pigments, I thought?) - I still enjoyed it, and would not object at all in coming across it in the story. Not too long at all/

(b) Sold on S turning away from alchemy? Not in that one moment, as @rdpulfer notes, but I thought the emotional crescendo was effective. 

(c) I did feel S's pain.

12 hours ago, Mandamon said:

Next, on CSI Sorpsi

Rofl - there's a short story right there  

[kais]

On 9/26/2017 at 5:05 PM, industrialistDragon said:

ou have my hackjob on the interlude on another platform. :3

And you are a lovely person for it. Thank you.

On 9/26/2017 at 5:05 PM, industrialistDragon said:

did Sorin scratch themselves bloody AND heal up overnight?

No, that's why there are scabs. Scabs often make my skin not flex right. I assume that isn't just me?

On 9/26/2017 at 5:05 PM, industrialistDragon said:

Um, weren't they doing just that last chapter?

They didn't actually kiss. Just brushed lips and such. 

On 9/26/2017 at 5:05 PM, industrialistDragon said:

It works better than the previous version by a long shot, but it still needs some clean up and tightening.

LOL. Story of all my writing. Thank you!

 

On 9/26/2017 at 5:15 PM, rdpulfer said:

but I feel like it needs to be built up in the previous chapters

Built up how? There's plenty of hints in earlier chapters that S's view of the world isn't the same as everyone else's. Do those need to be more apparent maybe?

On 9/26/2017 at 5:15 PM, rdpulfer said:

is telling the reader how she feels rather than telling someone like Magda

I've gone back and forth on dialogue versus internal monologue with this and can't quite find the right balance. I'll keep playing around. Thank you!

 

On 9/27/2017 at 11:37 AM, Mandamon said:

but I'm still not sold on the industrialization = bad.

That's okay! I don't know that it needs to be.

On 9/27/2017 at 11:37 AM, Mandamon said:

I'm not really sure what this interlude adds. We already know S's found the fungus.

Everyone seems in agreement with this, but I may keep it just because it's cute. 

On 9/27/2017 at 11:37 AM, Mandamon said:

do you go more into what a chemist does? Is this something coming from the industrialization?

This is brought out more in earlier chapters now.

On 9/27/2017 at 11:37 AM, Mandamon said:

I think we need to have the "thesis" of this dropped earlier in the story so that it makes more sense here and we can get t to the revelation quicker.

Hmm.... trying to think on how best to achieve this. I've put in a lot more about it in this draft, and haven't subbed some of the chapters that it is in now. Looks like I need more blatant call outs to alchemy? I was trying to use S as an unreliable narrator, but maybe it's just not working. 

On 9/27/2017 at 11:37 AM, Mandamon said:

What is it that makes the old guilds special? Ornamentation? Finer fitting?

History and tradition, really. I mean, the real world effects of the Industrial Revolution included loss of a huge swath of craft knowledge that we can't recover because of guild secrets. Some processes are completely lost to time. I don't know if we need them, but I suppose for those whose lives revolved around them, it was pretty upsetting. I guess I'm relying a lot on reader empathy for traditional handwork in this piece, which is problematic.

On 9/27/2017 at 11:37 AM, Mandamon said:

falling into the lake is a bit plot-ful.

Yup. But outside of Sam pushing S into the lake, I'm unsure how to get S back into it.

On 9/27/2017 at 11:37 AM, Mandamon said:

S's epiphany about magic/alchemy still seems forced

I agree. I've been over it so many times though I just can't figure out how to fix it

On 9/27/2017 at 11:37 AM, Mandamon said:

At 16, would S still play these games?

On and off, potentially. It was the daydreaming I really wanted to get across. (also I maybe pretended to be a Power Ranger in my backyard even up through high school...)

On 9/27/2017 at 11:37 AM, Mandamon said:

Do the mushrooms rotate?

I've edited this for clarity

Thank you!

[Mandamon]

9 hours ago, kais said:

History and tradition, really. I mean, the real world effects of the Industrial Revolution included loss of a huge swath of craft knowledge that we can't recover because of guild secrets. Some processes are completely lost to time. I don't know if we need them, but I suppose for those whose lives revolved around them, it was pretty upsetting. I guess I'm relying a lot on reader empathy for traditional handwork in this piece, which is problematic.

Personally, I understand what you're saying. My father does hand woodworking on the side, and I can see the difference in his pieces and mass-produced pieces. However, that transition is what--200 or more years past in our history? Any empathy with losing handworking as the main source of crafting is far lost in our history and probably 99% of your readers are going to say "so what" about that plot line. I think for it to be effective, you have to be very specific about what is being lost and what it means for the country. Make the reader feel that loss.

[Robinski]

5 hours ago, Mandamon said:

I think for it to be effective, you have to be very specific about what is being lost and what it means for the country. Make the reader feel that loss.

It gives me great pleasure to be able to say the immortal words "I agree with Mandamon."

[kais]

On 9/27/2017 at 11:54 PM, Robinski said:

I’m kind of surprised to read this. I thought this was going to be the ‘big’ discovery near the end, that there was this other thing called chemistry and S was (one of) the first.

That was the original idea, but it didn't land quite right on initial alpha readthroughs. I've tweaked it a bit because I did want to try to draw parallels between it and the nonbinary gender, in that both exist but (at this time) aren't really 'legit'. I dunno. We'll see if it works as you get farther into the story.

On 9/27/2017 at 11:54 PM, Robinski said:

this feels like a big thing to have escaped S’s notice over the years. Maybe?

I've done more with explaining S's isolation in early chapters, so hopefully with those edits, this makes more sense

On 9/27/2017 at 11:54 PM, Robinski said:

I think S needs to come back with dinner and the branch, personally.

@industrialistDragon agreed with you, so the morels stay!

On 9/27/2017 at 11:54 PM, Robinski said:

and that I'm always concentrating on the blips

LOL! I'm not here to be praised. I need harsh criticisms, STAT! So pick away, no worries!

On 9/27/2017 at 11:54 PM, Robinski said:

Not in that one moment

There's a follow up next chapter so I'll be interested to know if that 'seals the deal'

On 9/27/2017 at 11:54 PM, Robinski said:

Rofl - there's a short story right there

Are we going to do fanfic again???

Thank you so much!!

 

15 hours ago, Mandamon said:

you have to be very specific about what is being lost and what it means for the country. Make the reader feel that loss.

I think this is super solid advice. I'm going to start a new version now and try to add that in from the start. Thank you!

[Robinski]

1 hour ago, kais said:

I'm not here to be praised. I need harsh criticisms

Lol - "I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him."