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A question about Brandon.


Poroner

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Slight spoilers for mistborn era 2 ahead.

I'm gonna start by saying I'm not here to convince anyone of anything, I just want to know something. Is BS a SJW? I ask this because mostly because of mistborn Era 2. In none other of his works I've felt this way. 

I first noticed this when reading shadows of self and it all started with Melaan, who is an ancient being that has lived through the final empire and somehow after 600 years the thing she cares about is humans being sexist (even though there was literally no case of someone who is not already an awful person being sexist before) and somehow can't grasp the fact that kandras and humans are different. She also rants on about how harmony has no gender etc. It all seems so incredibly forced and only there to please a certain audience. Later on how Marasi started complaining to the constable captain how their uniforms are not appropriate which also came out of nowhere and it was not the time or place to discuss this and even Marasi herself says "we should discuss this another time" after bringing it up in the first place.
Also all the times he mentions how "progressive" something is like we can't figure it out by ourselves. 

Whenever these issues were tackled in stormlight archive for example I didn't feel this way, I don't know why it just doesn't work here. He didn't introduce this as a "sexist world" as Melaan seems to think. From what he's said men and women pretty much have equal opportunities and one would think that seeing as how the ascendant warrior was a woman. 

Before anyone calls me anything, I'm not a sexist, bigot, racist whatever you want to think. My favorite character is actually Jasnah. I just pointed all this out so some of you can at least see where I'm coming from. 

So is he? Every instance of something like this in era 2 made me roll my eyes and has greatly discouraged me from continuing reading. I would have ignored it but I'm at chapter 3 of bands of mourning and he's continuing with it and seeing as how Era 2 is some of his latest work can I expect more of this in the future? I actually want someone to convince me otherwise since I'm really enjoying the cosmere but this... yeah. 

And I guess sorry if I offended anyone...? Also sorry if I posted this in the wrong subforum or if this place is not fit for this type of discussion in general. I didn't want to post this on the reddit sub because I believe that place tends to be quite biased. 

Edited by Poroner
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I won't comment too much, other than leave two points:

1. He has caught a lot of flack for an essay about Dumbledore and homosexuality.

2. Despite Brandon being a devout Mormon, some readers have been surprised that he wasn't an atheist, due to Jasnah being a very genuine atheist character.

Brandon writes people who aren't like himself. Stormlight in particular, has some very racist people, if you stop and think about it. Even if MeLaan and Marasi are 'militant feminists' of sorts (which I think is what you're perceiving), that does not necessarily mean it is the view that Brandon personally espouses.

Edited by Pagerunner
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I knew that he is a mormon which made Jasnah all that much more awesome and you did put my mind at ease. It's good to know that he doesn't hold those views but it still feels like pandering to a certain audience and not up to par, making a kandra a "militant feminist" was probably the weirdest decision for me.

Regardless thank you for your answer. It helped, I think. 

Edited by Poroner
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14 hours ago, Poroner said:

Whenever these issues were tackled in stormlight archive for example I didn't feel this way, I don't know why it just doesn't work here. He didn't introduce this as a "sexist world" as Melaan seems to think. From what he's said men and women pretty much have equal opportunities and one would think that seeing as how the ascendant warrior was a woman.  

I like how different they feel personally. Roshar is very divided from a gender perspective with the Feminine/Masculine arts, and the women wield significant power being primarily the only literate ones. We also have a skewed perspective on Roshar since our view points are 90% high society Alethkar. Mistborn is very different and closer to a Western Earth analogue. We also (to me) seemingly have a broader selection from a socio-economic view on the world. 

In Mistborn, yes you have the Ascendant Warrior, but that doesn't mean you have gender equality. The West has Joan of Arc, it doesn't mean that women have had gender equality in western counties since the middle ages. Does it tend to be more equal in Western countries than elsewhere? Yes, and Joan of Arc may well have played a part in that development... or not (I really don't know on this one just speculating). 

I like that we see Marasi talking about female constable uniforms. I don't think it's out of no where as she thinks or mentioned it a few times prior to that, but it's an outburst and then she realizes its the inappropriate time and changes the subject. I like that we get to see the beginnings and burgeoning of more gender equality idea(l)s among our main characters. Renette wears "mens clothing" and is some strange socially outcast person (in world). That's how she wants it anyway (seemingly) but even if she didn't, she wouldn't be able to be a lady in the Era 2 society and wear what she does. MeLaan's PoV is supposed to be coming from an immortal shapeshifter for whom gender is a choice, not a physical characteristic (please don't hop on that comment to talk about real world sex vs. gender, please please). And she has seen how she's been treated when a man, but also as a woman. I think she has more place to speak to the true state of Era 2 society vis-à-vis gender equality than any of the other main characters. To me, her statements are a truer mirror to North Scadrian society, gender equality, and/or lack thereof, than any of other main character's. 

On your main point. I have no idea if Brandon is a Social Justice Warrior, though I don't know if that's a bad thing if he were. I think each book is going to be different from that perspective since each one is on a different planet with different historical/societal developments. In Mistborn we get to trace societies development from post TLR to a modern society which is neat. Some of that will include things like gender equality development across society. 

Edited by Green Hoodie Mistborn
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I think Brandon is a thoughtful person that tries hard to see and understand how other people view the world; he tries to incorporate all of these different world views in his writing (even if he privately disagrees). I don't know Brandon personally, but I would say he is not a social justice warrior.

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When I read Mistborn Era 2, I just saw those themes as coming from the inspiration of the setting/time period.  Since Scadrial is a close analog to earth, I thought it made sense that it also had some people working through gender equality issues in that time period, so it didn't really stand out as strange to me.

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3 hours ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I don't think it's out of no where as she thinks or mentioned it a few times prior to that, but it's an outburst and then she realizes its the inappropriate time and changes the subject.

I read the book recently and it did (unless there's something in alloy of law that I'm not remembering). Anyway, you bring up good points about Melaan and I find myself agreeing. I would have liked if her pov was better explained in the book however.

But yes I see now how Brandon works and it's pretty reassuring. 

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29 minutes ago, Poroner said:

I read the book recently and it did (unless there's something in alloy of law that I'm not remembering).

Now I had to go look it up! :) Here is the scene in question:

 
Quote

Marasi sighed. She’d been looking forward to maintaining her decorum tonight. Ah well. She walked over and took a set of reins.

Aradel was already in his saddle. He glanced at her, then raised a hand to his head. “Oh, of course. I didn’t think—”

Marasi swung up into the saddle, awkwardly bunching her skirt up between her legs and sitting on part of it, revealing a generous expanse of leg. “It occurs to me, sir,” Marasi noted, “that lady constable uniforms could be distinctly more utilitarian.”

“We’ll … make a note of it, Lieutenant Colms.” He glanced toward the retreating carriage. “If you wish—”

“Sir,” Marasi said, “I believe the city is on fire. Perhaps we can discuss feminine modesty on another occasion?”

Sanderson, Brandon. Shadows of Self (Mistborn) (Kindle Locations 4794-4798). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

You're right on the one hand that there are no other mentions of changing it or having the lady's uniform updated before this... but at the same time it's not really "out of nowhere" to me. She's wearing a dress/skirt as part of her uniform because that is "womanly fashion"... but then she has to mount a horse without a side saddle. Distinctly difficult thing to do without showing a bunch of leg to people, which in the Era 2 (and 1 probably) would be frowned upon for someone of her "standing" in society. So much so that her boss who hired her for her talents (and connection to Wax) is so distracted by her that he is more worried about her modesty than focusing on what they were just going to ride away after.  

As I read it, Marasi is only making a comment about practicality, not feminist progressiveness. He continues to be distracted by her riding astride in a dress so she re-focuses them on task of riding to the emergency. 

Edited by Green Hoodie Mistborn
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First off, I don't understand why people are downvoting this. It is not meant to be offensive, and is just someone expressing their opinion and asking for ours.

As to the question itself, I doubt Brandon is a SJW. Like @Ammanas said, he attempts to see things from a lot of different point of views. He has also been called a homophobe by some real SJWs.

Furthermore, in the Era 2 setting, which is supposed to be Earth-like, feminism fits in well, simce it was an important topic during that era of time in our world.

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Luckily upvotes can be used to counter downvotes when one feels they are unfair :)

Brandon definitely has some aspects stemming from his religious convictions but I think he makes a concerted effort to be balanced and represent minorities of all sorts, and as noted he even writes superb anti-religion characters. Whatever his personal views are do not matter to me in the slightest. But he paints a positive view of humanity and he is quite innovative with being progressive, including using gay characters in settings that do not normally have them. But he's quite careful not to make a token effort by including diversity purely for the sake of it, but instead works diversity into his cast in subtle but understanding ways. So I don't think any of his own personal moral beliefs, conservative or progressive, are reflected in his books, with the possible minor exception of pre-marital sex. He writes with exceptional diversity to my mind. 

I think it  was a reasonable question that seemed to come from the right place, I hope some of these explanations help. 

Or if you want it from the man himself...

Quote

Questioner: How come you don’t have any LGBT characters in your books?
Brandon: I do!  This one [Shadows of Self] actually has one.  Ranette is lesbian.  Let’s see, transgender is awkward because I have the kandra who are kind of no-gender and both, that doesn’t really count, but it’s kind of me testing the waters and seeing whether I can write someone who has fluid gender and not be offensive with it, does that make sense?  So keep an eye on what I do with the kandra through the books.  The other gay person is Drehy from Bridge 4, he’s based on my good friend Ryan who is gay, and so you will see his husband appear in the series eventually as well, but we really haven’t talked about that one yet, there really hasn’t been anything but Ranette we’ve talked about and it becomes more and more obvious as we talk about it in the books.

Quote

QUESTION

Do you have any, or will you ever write a gay character into any of your books?

BRANDON SANDERSON

There are several. Drehy, in The Stormlight Archive, the bridgeman is gay, because he's based off a good friend of mine who's gay. Ranette in the Wax & Wayne books, the woman that Wayne's in love with, she's gay, and it's hinted at in the first book. By the second book, they're like "Dude, she's gay, just leave her alone." So yes, I have written gaycharacters. I've never written a gay main viewpoint character, maybe someday I will, it's not something I've done yet.

FOOTNOTE

Note from Wetlander: "At this point I asked about Jasnah, and I'll summarize our conversation; Brandon specifically asked me not to transcribe it directly. He'd momentarily forgotten that he had actually written Jasnah viewpoints, so his 'I've never written a gay main viewpoint character' comment wasn't intended to quell the speculation about her either way. He clearly didn't intend to say that she's not gay, but he didn't want to rephrase in such a way as to say that she is, either; at this point, he really doesn't want to give a WoB about her either way. He'll deal with that if/as it becomes relevant to the story—and he refused to give any indication whether that was if or as. We are to continue our speculation if we're interested in the question."

 

Edited by Extesian
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7 hours ago, Extesian said:

But he's quite careful not to make a token effort by including diversity purely for the sake of it

This is what I'm scared of. I felt this way with shadows of self but people brought up some very good points in this thread.
You've got some constantly asking about more diversity and then he writes it in just out of fear of catching flak. I'm not saying it has happened so far, the already existing gay characters are pretty natural but the gender talk certainly feels like it especially after reading the question about LGBT characters. Now I'm fairly confident he won't but I still worry. 

This is my opinion of course and I don't want to come off wrong but it's just that I get into these kind of books to read about a high fantasy story. People and gods killing each other, political intrigue, crazy adventures etc. Reading about stuff like this (someone's sexuality, how someone perceives genders), especially when it has no bearing on the story isn't really fun. I'm not necessarily talking about Brandon's work here but in general. 

As a sidenote, it is pretty hilarious how Brandon has written about tons of stuff that go against his beliefs yet he still refuses to have a character have sex before marriage. I don't mind although it does get a bit weird at times. "Just **** already!"

 

Edited by Poroner
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33 minutes ago, Poroner said:

As a sidenote, it is pretty hilarious how Brandon has written about tons of stuff that go against his beliefs yet he still refuses to have a character have sex before marriage. I don't mind although it does get a bit weird at times. "Just **** already!"

Dalinar and Navani are implied to have done the deed by Pattern, and they arent married. Though they are still older and would be married if not for social custom.

I'm not totally sure, but I think there was also an implication that Vin and Elend 'spent the night together' before they were married, which you can read how you like.

I just assumed it was awkward for him to write about directly, because of his beliefs. That doesnt mean there aren't hints though. :P

Edit: Oh and also, mistresses seem to be fairly common on Roshar, Sabarial is definitely sleeping with Palona, for example.

Edited by Cowmanthethird
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6 hours ago, Extesian said:

Luckily upvotes can be used to counter downvotes when one feels they are unfair :)

Brandon definitely has some aspects stemming from his religious convictions but I think he makes a concerted effort to be balanced and represent minorities of all sorts, and as noted he even writes superb anti-religion characters. Whatever his personal views are do not matter to me in the slightest. But he paints a positive view of humanity and he is quite innovative with being progressive, including using gay characters in settings that do not normally have them. But he's quite careful not to make a token effort by including diversity purely for the sake of it, but instead works diversity into his cast in subtle but understanding ways. So I don't think any of his own personal moral beliefs, conservative or progressive, are reflected in his books, with the possible minor exception of pre-marital sex. He writes with exceptional diversity to my mind. 

I think it  was a reasonable question that seemed to come from the right place, I hope some of these explanations help. 

Or if you want it from the man himself...

 

This is why I love brandon. He seems like a genuinely great guy. He has his beliefs but his characters aren't defined by them. He can explore other things, and does so without it feeling forced *AHEM MARVEL COMICS AHEM*. 

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@Poroner this is probably going to come across harsher than I intend. If that happens I apologize in advance. Please take this as the discussion that I intend, and not a personal attack.

While I don't think you should have been downvoted, I can almost guarantee that those downvote stem from your use of the term "Social Justice Warrior." words create associations, and SJW is primarily attributed to sexist/racist groups and individuals who see the world changing around them, and are upset and afraid due to their perceived loss of social power. While I don't believe this meaning was intended, you OP shows you are aware of the association, as you felt the need to preemptively defend yourself and separate yourself from those groups. 

On the issue with the Mistborn books... Scadrial is unique in the Cosmere as its intended to show the technological and social evolution of a world across multiple eras in time. To see those changes, seeds have to be planted in the previous era. That's good writing. Scadrian society borrows heavily from real life western culture, and while due to Vin's influence primarily as you mentioned, the Elendel basin is for more egalitarian than we were historically, things are by no means equal. The majority of Elendel's peoples are either complacent or happy with the way things are. That's normal. Social change happens though, when individuals or small groups draw attention to an issue that's largely ignored. That's exactly what happens here, naturally as a part of Marasi's character development. And as has already been mentioned, Melaan, as a species for who physical sex is purely a choice, but who still identifies as female (and she does. There's a WoB somewhere that Kandra have genders for no physical reason. Melaan is female, TenSoon Male.) is in a uniquely perfect place to actually see the differences in how the sexes are treated. 

These issues do not in any way dominate this story. They are minor bits of character development that flesh out two characters, and other references show that the society is changing in order to foreshadow the changes that we will see in future Mistborn eras. It's not present in any of the other stories to this extent, purely because those stories aren't meant to have a societal shift after a time jump. 

So lastly, I have a question for you, that I don't really expect you to answer, and is honestly meant to provoke thought, nothing more. These minor points, which in no way dominate this story have made you uncomfortable enough that you have considered to stop reading. Why is it that these issues make you uncomfortable, but the overt and pervasive Classism/Racism/Sexism of the Stormlight Archive, which does dominate the story and the social structure in those books, doesn't? 

Edited by Calderis
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I don't know, I feel like even if I hadn't used the term there would still be downvotes, people tend to get quite touchy about these subjects.

Growing up I never saw the color of someone's skin or cared who they were attracted to but after the various identity politics or however you want to call them the last few years and how in almost every form of entertainment there's been people trying to force diversity out of nowhere (especially changing the race / gender of an existing character) it has made me question the intent behind bringing up subjects such as these.
So to answer your question, it just feels more genuine. There's a clear set up of how the world works, the issues and why people act the way they do.
I know mistborn is supposed to take after earth and western culture but it's still supposed to be a different world and while I agree with most points brought up here I still feel like he didn't do a good job conveying some of those in the book itself. Reddit does come into it too. This for example and from Brandon's answer this has come up before and suddenly there's a couple of "militant feminists" in the books. The question about LGBT characters and kandra as well. Suddenly there's talk about genders. 
Why should that kind of thing bother someone else but this should not bother me? (I don't want to discredit that reddit thread, it does have some merit to it. Discussions about Elend but also about Vin from Elends end could get a bit too much at times)

So I came here to discuss it, listen to what others have to say. Maybe I missed something, maybe I misunderstood and mostly to understand a bit more about Brandon and how he works which will ease my worries about his intent. Is he really writing this because he feels like it or is it because someone called him out on it and he's worried about that happening again? 

That's my honest answer. As I said before, I don't want to convince anyone of anything. It's just how I feel. 

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@Poroner fair enough.

Your civility and willingness to discuss makes your intentions clear. Ignore the downvotes. Some see differences in opinion as attacks in themselves. 

I personally don't think there's anything to worry about with Brandon's writing, and the things are as I portrayed them, but I can understand the worry that it's reactionary. 

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21 minutes ago, Poroner said:

@Calderis Thank you. I never even noticed the downvotes myself. :lol:

I missed the downvotes as well, but I up voted you last night when I saw @Toaster Retribution mention downvotes. That's crazy for a post like your OP. 

I'd never seen that reddit post/response from Brandon on the Era1 and gender diversity, so thank you for sharing it @Poroner. Like @Calderis, I can understand the worry of forced inclusion, but in my view point it's an unnecessary worry.

I think that Brandon likes to reflect reality, and in reality there are a myriad of perspectives, view points, orientations, etc and he's going to give them to us. Things like the Bechdel test are designed to remind people that the world consists of more than just men. The same is true of every other race/gender/*ism(*ist), they are out there in the world and should be reflected in fiction. 

I'm not sure if you're "militant feminist" comment in quotes above was supposed to be sarcastic or not? I'm going to assume it is since quotes were used but please let me know if you still feel that those characters are portrayed that way, because I just don't see that coming across the page to me when I read the scenes you reference. 

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1 hour ago, Green Hoodie Mistborn said:

I'm not sure if you're "militant feminist" comment in quotes above was supposed to be sarcastic or not? I'm going to assume it is since quotes were used but please let me know if you still feel that those characters are portrayed that way, because I just don't see that coming across the page to me when I read the scenes you reference. 

No need to worry. It was... well not exactly sarcastic but I don't feel that way anymore, unless something else surfaces while I'm reading Bands of mourning (it will have to be somewhat extreme) but for now it's all good!

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I echo many of the thoughts that have already been shared by multiple posters on this thread.

I respect Brandon's ability as a author to--with a great deal of wisdom--delve into characters who are so different from himself. 

Brandon himself is a very religious man, but he writes atheist characters with a great deal of sincerity, for example. 

More than anything, Brandon is a master of understanding what makes people tick, and of exploring their feelings, thoughts, and motivations.

I do not personally feel like Brandon's writing of particular characters implies endorsement of their views/behaviors/actions; rather, he wants each character to be true to their own self. It makes his characters compelling and causes them to come across as genuine rather than forced. That's a great skill for a fiction writer to have.

Brandon himself has written some great insights that are related to these topics on his website: http://faq.brandonsanderson.com/node/246 (Several of the sections on this page offer interesting glimpses into Brandon's perspective about all this.)

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