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[OB] Oathbringer chapters 10-12


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1 hour ago, lordofsoup said:

I am very interested to see what Mr. T does.  His notes said that the blackthorn could be a great ally if he chose the path of the warlord.  Becoming High King of Uthiriru might be enough to satisfy that requirement for the time being and Dalinar believes in Nohadon's idea of forcing the people to behave.  It's not too far to force them to fight the desolation.  Really hope Mr. T becomes an ally.

The actual quote from WoR is this:

Spoiler

Chaos in Alethkar is, of course, inevitable. Watch carefully, and do not let power in the kingdom solidify. The Blackthorn could become an ally or our greatest foe, depending on whether he takes the path of the warlord or not. If he seems likely to sue for peace, assassinate him expeditiously. The risk of competition is too great.

—From the Diagram, Writings upon the Bedstand Lamp: paragraph 4 (Adrotagia’s 3rd translation from the original hieroglyphics)

This sounds more like the diagram suggests Dalinar would become an enemy if he managed to create stability, and thus become a competitor for the ultimate leader of any alliance of humanity...

It seems like becoming 'high king' puts him directly in opposition to this passage from the diagram.

I suppose you could argue that with whatever is going on in Kholinar, Alethkar is still unstable and the diagram may not be against Dalinar... But that's really not where I'd put my money

Edited by Bcknight2
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Any chance the Queen of Thaylenah could become the "female" Bondsmith? I've been assuming there would be one after learning there were three and that an order's numbers were made up of "statistically appropriate" percentages of men and women. It seems like one should show up soon, and we haven't seen many female leaders. It's a bit out of left field, though May Aladar would be even more so! Any other female candidates?

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1 minute ago, Bcknight2 said:

...with whatever is going on in Kholinar, Alethkar is still unstable and the diagram may not be against Dalinar... But that's really not where I'd put my money

The Diagram is pretty unequivocally calling for Dalinar's death at this point, isn't it? I mean, the last we saw, Taravangian emphasized it to Szeth, twice, as his Top Priority, and Graves' ulterior motive in attacking Elhokar with Moash was to keep Kaladin away from Dalinar while Szeth had a second go at him (given that Kaladin had stopped him the first time).

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5 minutes ago, Bcknight2 said:

The actual quote from WoR is this:

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Chaos in Alethkar is, of course, inevitable. Watch carefully, and do not let power in the kingdom solidify. The Blackthorn could become an ally or our greatest foe, depending on whether he takes the path of the warlord or not. If he seems likely to sue for peace, assassinate him expeditiously. The risk of competition is too great.

—From the Diagram, Writings upon the Bedstand Lamp: paragraph 4 (Adrotagia’s 3rd translation from the original hieroglyphics)

This sounds more like the diagram suggests Dalinar would become an enemy if he managed to create stability, and thus become a competitor for the ultimate leader of any alliance of humanity...

I suppose you could argue that with whatever is going on in Kholinar, Alethkar is still unstable and the diagram may not be against Dalinar... But that's really not where I'd put my money

I think it likely at this point that Taravangian will try and create a alliance with Dalinar in order to seize control and remove him through assassination. 

Taravangian wants to enact his plan. Dalinar's leadership is an impediment to that plan. Using the base that Dalinar has already started to build is a way to speed his goals along, and if he can now steal the hIghking title in the process and wrest control of the Knights in one blow.... Of course he will. 

Edit: @robardin There's a WoB that states that Graves was working on his own at cross purposes with Taravangian off of his own interpretation of the Diagram. He was meant to show that Taravangian is not in full control of the Diagram as a united group.

He was honest with Moash in believing that removing Elhokar would lead to Dalinar as king for the greater good. 

Edited by Calderis
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Quote

“You can’t have my daddy,” the boy said, words distorted by his sorrow. Painspren crawled around the floor. “You can’t. You… you…” His voice fell to a whisper. “Daddy said… we fight monsters. And with faith, we will win.…” - Oathbringer, CH 11, B. Sanderson, Tor.com

Quote

"Dalinar rammed the Shardblade into the stone and leaned back, closing his eyes again and remembering the sound of a brave boy crying." - Oathbringer, CH 11, B. Sanderson, Tor.com

As a first time father of a four-month old son, this whole scene really hit hard. As much as I love the current Dalinar, old Dalinar was so cold. I mean, I think it's obvious he is remember the boy with honor, but it's still painful to watch. After only two flashbacks, it's very obvious why Sadeas referred to Dalinar's personality in tWoK as "soft".

Dang it, Brandon! Why did you have to give my favorite character such a dark background!?! :o

Edited by Isaiah Zayth
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1 minute ago, Frostlander said:

Any chance the Queen of Thaylenah could become the "female" Bondsmith? I've been assuming there would be one after learning there were three and that an order's numbers were made up of "statistically appropriate" percentages of men and women. It seems like one should show up soon, and we haven't seen many female leaders. It's a bit out of left field, though May Aladar would be even more so! Any other female candidates?

Maybe Navani, though I don't know about that, considering how affiliated she is with Dalinar. 

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3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I think it likely at this point that Taravangian will try and create a alliance with Dalinar in order to seize control and remove him through assassination. 

Taravangian wants to enact his plan. Dalinar's leadership is an impediment to that plan. Using the base that Dalinar has already started to build is a way to speed his goals along, and if he can now steal the hIghking title in the process and wrest control of the Knights in one blow.... Of course he will. 

I'm wondering if the peace the Diagram mentions is peace as in unity among the human kingdoms or peace with the parshendi against Odium?

Edited by ScavellTane
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22 minutes ago, Nashan'Elin said:

This thread is going to be the sole reason I hit my upvote quota today

I have this irrational desire to see my reputation level match or surpass my post count.  It will never happen, I think.  But Tuesdays are starting to give me hope.

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3 minutes ago, Frostlander said:

Any chance the Queen of Thaylenah could become the "female" Bondsmith? I've been assuming there would be one after learning there were three and that an order's numbers were made up of "statistically appropriate" percentages of men and women. It seems like one should show up soon, and we haven't seen many female leaders. It's a bit out of left field, though May Aladar would be even more so! Any other female candidates?

Well, let's look at the end of the conversation (spoiler-tagged for length):

Spoiler

“And,” he said quickly for Kalami to add, “we would be happy to send our Radiants to train those you discover, then introduce them to the system and fraternity of Urithiru, to which each of them has a right by nature of their oaths.”

Kalami added this, then twisted the spanreed to indicate they were done and waiting for a reply.

“ ‘We will consider this,’ ” Kalami read as the spanreed scribbled across the page. “ ‘The crown of Thaylenah thanks you for your interest in our people, and we will consider negotiations regarding your offer of troops. We have sent some of our few remaining cutters to track down the fleeing parshmen, and will inform you of what we discover. Until we speak again, Highprince.’ ”

“Storms,” Navani said. “She reverted to queenspeak. We lost her somewhere in there.”

Perhaps Her Thaylen Majesty already is a KR, although I don't think the Bondsmith divine attributes fit, based off our brief interaction.

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1 minute ago, Stark said:

I have this irrational desire to see my reputation level match or surpass my post count.  It will never happen, I think.  But Tuesdays are starting to give me hope.

I've given up on having the really cool reputation levels 

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3 minutes ago, Nashan'Elin said:

Hey, you're pretty close. Some of us lost hope many hundred posts ago

Ya especially when you've been on the forum for nearly 7 years.

 

also to the Dalinar points, the more I think about it, the more it's safe to say that Mr. And Dalinar will be allies.  I know it goes against the grain of everything that has transpired, but as high king he no longer has authority over his home country.  I think it would be a great twist if Elhokar actually became strong enough to unify the country, which would lead Mr. T to actually trying to assassinate him.  

Edited by lordofsoup
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23 minutes ago, redbishop said:

Apparently not, as Szeth finished his list and returned for instructions.  Well, to "kill Teravangian."  Mincing words is fun.

The question is why did Mr. T leave her off the list?

 

could be somwething as simple as mr T  thinking he could get her as an ally at some point without needing assassination. Or the political structure of taylenah shattering in a way that would not be conductive to taravangian taking control.

19 minutes ago, Darvys said:

Probably not the best place for this, and this was all probably said elsewhere, but oh well, since he's involved in the chapter ...

I just don't see the need for a Mr.T as antagonist storyline at this point, sure i can understand killing Dalinar before he reached this point to leave the path open, but now ? When Dalinar is already working to unite Roshar, what would be the point of going on with the "King of everything" idea ? The deck is already stacked so unfavourably against the humans i don't think he can push his scheming too far without destroying his own chances at reaching his goal. I know we know nothing about his long term plans, but i can't think of anything right now to justify it. My guess is he'll be outwardly a strong ally to Dalinar, and his ploting will only revolve around measures Dalinar wouldn't deem ... radianty enough to agree with. If Mr;T is going to oppose someone, i think it'll be the various other secret societies flouriching on Roshar. That's why i find the theory having him become the "Cultivation" Bondsmith compelling, if his story evolves the right way. Any thoughts on this ?

I would like to see mr T as "the left hand"of dalinar.

REgarding the diagram, I think it's shoot to hell by now. It didn't mention finding urithiru or stuff. It called for stopping dalinar before he could unite the alethi, which he sort of did already. So a reasonable mr T may come to realize that the diagram failed and the best he can do is take his achievements and put them together with dalinar's.

On the other hand, I don't see the story going that way. The whole diagram setup doesn't seem like it can end with T and D allied.

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Several people have mentioned the important reveal that many (most?) of the parshmen have taken on non-voidish forms. I'll quote the two that phrased it best.

39 minutes ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Voidbringers going to kholinar. Except they aren't voidbringers, they are parshendi, hmmmm, interesting. Do you have the right to fight them if they are just slaves throwing off their shackles, no evilness involved? 

13 minutes ago, redbishop said:

I wonder if there is a limited number of voidspren to go around, or if maybe having non-voidspren as the majority will make people feel conflicted at first.  Red-eyed monsters that summon storms to destroy your house are pretty easy to exterminate without having to really hate them - even Lirin gets that.  People that are suddenly sapient and just want to get away and survive?  Way harder to kill out of hand, and a better setup for Phase 2.

From a storytelling point-of-view, Brandon hinted that this was coming. In a reddit comment a while back, he said:

Quote

Some of the most controversial (and in some cases straight up racist) pieces of storytelling done in the modern era were done by well-meaning, but at the same time oblivious, white people trying to tackle the topic.[...] So writing a series where racism and class-ism are major themes--and an entire minority population has not only been enslaved, but had their cultures stripped away and their souls partially stunted, preventing them from thinking--is a dangerous thing. It's entire possible that I'll stumble on this, and make a big offensive, embarrassing mess.

So let's just say it's something I'm watching very carefully. 

The conflict with the listeners could never have been as simple as our heroes assumed: "Suddenly our slaves have all been suborned by Odium! We humans have to kill or save them!" I for one am glad to see the complications appearing early. I was surprised when all of the parshmen, even the ones indoors, transformed with the coming of the Everstorm, and I worried that this wholesale conversion to voidforms would short-circuit the in-world ethical discussion. It appears, though, that the Everstorm didn't force a particular form on any of the listeners, it just unlocked whatever was done to them that prevented them from bonding new spren. (Does this give us any hint as to what it was? I still presume it was Melishi, as most have guessed.)

1 hour ago, Stark said:

Syl has to go under or around doors, not through them, requiring space.  Even intangible she must respect the physical constraints of matter?  Or is it the cognitive concept of a door/wall keeping things out that she must respect?

This was a surprise to me. I also wonder if it's true of all spren.

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7 minutes ago, King Cole said:

I've given up on having the really cool reputation levels 

The key seems to be posting funny or awesome comments.  Or well thought out arguements about prospective character arcs, or theories.  Or thinly veiled, poorly disguised requests for upvotes.

 

Though the last is as likely to backfire as it is to succeed...

 

Ya especially when you've been on the forum for nearly 7 years.

I probably lurked for five of those years before ever posting.  Don't even remember what finally got me to open up and start flooding the boards with whatever came to mind...

Edited by Stark
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6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@robardin There's a WoB that states that Graves was working on his own at cross purposes with Taravangian off of his own interpretation of the Diagram. He was meant to show that Taravangian is not in full control of the Diagram as a united group.

He was honest with Moash in believing that removing Elhokar would lead to Dalinar as king for the greater good. 

Yes, when recruiting Moash initially, but I always interpreted his last statement when Kaladin speaks his Third Ideal:

Quote

We focused on making certain you were separated from Dalinar, and not on what our actions might push you to become!

as stemming from what Taravangian said earlier, after sending Szeth to kill Dalinar again, by telling him Kaladin must have an Honirblade instead of being Radiant: 

Quote

 

Wake every Alethi sleeper we have; send every agent in the area. There will be stories told of one of these bridgemen. Miraculous survival. Favored of the winds. One is among them. He might not know yet exactly what he’s doing, but he has bonded a spren and sworn at least the First Ideal.”

“If we find him?” Adrotagia asked.

We keep him away from Szeth at all costs.” Taravangian handed her the Diagram. “Our lives depend upon it. Szeth is a beast who gnaws at his leg to escape his bonds. If he gets free . . .”

 

So not exactly aiming to separate Kaladin from Dalinar in terms of stripping him as a bodyguard, but to keep him away from meeting Szeth again.

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1 hour ago, robardin said:

I've wondered this too, but then I remember that Gavilar was first in line before him to receive the visions from the Stormfather, which a WoB somewhere has confirmed meant that Gavilar was on the Path of the Bondsmith like Dalinar ultimately went down. Yet as we see in the Eshonai prologue to Oathbringer, he was also a key figure in the Sons of Honor; and to your point, not obviously "broken", just "changing".

What cracks in the soul did Gavilar develop? Guilt over the violence he dealt? Something else?

My point wasn't that Dalinar was broken. Just that not having the memories might have made him a different person. After all, past Blackthorn!Dalinar was not Bondsmith material.

 

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2 minutes ago, Stark said:

Or thinly veiled, poorly disguised requests for upvotes.

 

Though the last is as likely to backfire as it is to succeed...

A week ago there was a topic literally called "give me upvotes". doing stuff like that makes you look desperate for something that doesn't really matter. I don't care that much about my reputation, I just like seeing an interesting reputation level under my name

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1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

Gold Feruchemists heal their body to match their spiritual ideal. I think it is indeed the spiritual ideal of himself that Adolin is seeing as his Physical body is brought into alignment with it.

A bit off topic, but. If gold freuchimist can heal according to their spiritual ideal, the way they see themselves, if they can change their own ideal, they can do more than heal. Maybe increase muscle mass, maybe have slight shapeshifting. Same thing with storming - if you can modify the ideal....the ability becomes more than just healing.

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45 minutes ago, Edonidd said:

It doesn't make sense for the everstorm to change them into warform.  Warform is specifically NOT of Odium,  not of the unmade/parshendi Gods, and not of the voidspren.  Its an evolution of the forms the Listeners took to break away from Odium.  Plus we've already seen Stormform is pretty much a direct upgrade from warform. 

I guess there's only so many void spren to go around. Warform is mentioned to be more obedient and willing to follow orders, plus the obvious physical benefits. Lacking sufficient void spren it's the perfect form for what Odium wants. 

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17 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yes, when recruiting Moash initially, but I always interpreted his last statement when Kaladin speaks his Third Ideal:

They thought that keeping him separated from Dalinar would keep him from becoming a Radiant. That's nothing to do with Taravangian. They were acting on their own. 

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Just now, Calderis said:

They thought that keeping him separated from Dalinar would keep him from becoming a Radiant. That's nothing to do with Taravangian. They were acting on their own. 

Huh. So Moash didn't tell Graves that Kaladin had lost his Surgebinding and "killed" Syl as a result of agreeing to their plot?

And Graves himself doesn't describe himself as a splinter; rather, that "we're allowed to pursue our own interests and goals until we're called up", and that he's bringing Moash back somewhere "to introduce him to the Diagram".

I agree that Graves was not acting on Taravangian's orders to pursue his assassination of Elhokar, and I wouldn't be surprised if his use of Moash's relationship with Kaladin to get Kal to break his Ideals (and de-Radiant himself) was one of his side goals. But I also think Taravangian does have at least loose authority over Graves' motives, if not his specific actions.

 

 

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