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[OB] Oathbringer chapters 10-12


Mestiv

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5 hours ago, JoyBlu said:

Have you read Elantris? There is that one scene that is so dark that I won't let my kids give that book away for gifts/presents.  And I'm still hesitant to let my tween daughter read it  I've deflected her from it several times but I have a rule that my kids can read any book on my bookshelf and she will read it soon and my older kids have read it, but it still gives me nightmares sometimes.

Wut? (yes I've read Elantris. It's part of my reasoning.) 

I have no idea what scene your referring to. 

Edited by Calderis
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@Calderis @Toaster Retribution

Sorry it took me so long to get back to you but I was more excited about the new chapters posted today and I had to dig to find the exact page in Elantris where Brandon writes "dark".  I don't think Brandon writes dark just for fun -- it really is critical to the plot line, but still this scene--all three sentences of it--still bothers me and he is perfectly capable of writing gruesome scenes.

Elantris Spoilers

Spoiler

The kidnapping, rape, torture, and murder of a pretty, young, innocent palace servant girl by her boss -- a man in power -- The King

 

Chapter 32 (page 324 in my HardBound version)

Sarene had sent her Seon, Ashe, to follow/spy on King Iadon (her father-in-law) She secretly followed him until she slipped and fell and was noticed by the King and his entourage.

bottom of page . . . . .

Quote

King Iadon stared back, looking as stunned as she felt.

"Merciful Domi," Sarene whispered.  The king stood facing her behind an altar, a red-streaked knife raised in his hand.  He was completely naked except for the blood smearing his chest.  The remains of an eviscerated young woman lay tied to the altar, her torso sliced open from neck to crotch.

I am female.  I tend to identify with female characters -- even the minor ones.  In fact I tend to identify myself more with the minor characters than the main characters because the minor characters are less fleshed-out and I can insert myself into those characters easily.  While I am no longer the young, pretty, innocent servant girl -- I once was that girl and still relate to her. I now have daughters that are beautiful, obedient, and hard working.  Those are the types of girls that were being sacrificed by a cult religion. What if my daughters were kidnapped? By the King????  There was so much foreshadowing in the book about the missing/runaway palace servant girls that I had already identified with that girl before I knew her fate. Kidnapped and murdered -- I probably could have handled that. The rape and torture descriptions were too much for me.  Both your profiles say that you two are male.  Perhaps this scene wasn't memorable to you because you didn't read this scene from the point of view of the victim like I did. Just a thought.

 

I promise you that when I read a scene with a beautiful woman mourning over the death of her husband, and seeing her young son stand up to the man that killed her husband and if an on-page/screen scene takes place where that son is also dead (or even thought to be dead) that I will be triggered and will react differently than someone who hasn't had my same life experiences. I am really trying to mentally prepare myself for that scene. I understand that what might be dark and disgusting to one reader, another reader will gloss over. That is what I love about this forum. Things are pointed out that I completely missed.  It gives an insight to the author and also to the readers. It is helping me to become more aware of what I'm reading and to appreciate the writing!

Elantris Chapter 32 Annotation Notes from Brandon Sanderson

Spoiler

from

https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-elantris-chapter-32/

There are so many things going on in this chapter that I don’t quite know where to start. I guess I’ll begin with the Mysteries. I drew part of this religion, including the name, from the mystery cults of ancient Greece. I added the ritual sacrifices to give them a bit of zing. You’ll get a little bit more of an explanation of the Mysteries, and why someone might decide to join one, in a later Sarene chapter.

 

To me, however, a cult is something that twists who you are, changing you into a shadow of what you used to be. I firmly believe that you can judge a religion by the effects it produces in its practitioners. Does it make them better people? If so, then there’s a good chance that the religion is worth something. Does it turn them into people who sacrifice their own servants in an effort to make evil spirits come and kill their daughters in law? If so, well. . .you might want to stay away from that one.

 

Edited by JoyBlu
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@JoyBlu

Spoiler

Forgive me if I sound insensitive but where did you see evidence of rape? That scene is undoubtedly dark and in my opinion not the only dark Elantrian scene (boy getting his throat crushed) but to my eyes I can only spot the murder, sacrifice and desecration. Not to say that those acts aren't horrible. 

 

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@Agent34

elantris chapter 32 spoiler 

Spoiler

To me the rape was obvious but after a reread I can see how it was implied

the following line 

Quote

He was completely naked except for the blood smearing his chest. 

First off when I (a woman) see a naked man -- it is usually one for one purpose and that purpose is sex.  So the fact that he was completely naked made me think that he was was having sex with the girl.  Because of the kidnapping (which is referenced several times earlier in the book when the girls had gone missing) I assume that it wasn't consensual sex. Which makes it rape. 

Then if there was any question as to why that man was naked and that being naked was just part of the sacrifice ritual the King also had blood on his chest.  How did that blood get there? He was laying on top of the bleeding girl of course. What does a man do when he rapes? While there are other ways, the most common is to force the girl laying down, face up, and then have the man lay on top of her forcing her down with his weight.  

 

That is why I read that scene as rape.

Please tell me if you think that line could mean anything else  

 

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1 minute ago, JoyBlu said:

@Agent34

elantris chapter 32 spoiler 

  Reveal hidden contents

To me the rape was obvious but after a reread I can see how it was implied

the following line 

First off when I (a woman) see a naked man -- it is usually one for one purpose and that purpose is sex.  So the fact that he was completely naked made me think that he was was having sex with the girl.  Because of the kidnapping (which is referenced several times earlier in the book when the girls had gone missing) I assume that it wasn't consensual sex. Which makes it rape. 

Then if there was any question as to why that man was naked and that being naked was just part of the sacrifice ritual the King also had blood on his chest.  How did that blood get there? He was laying on top of the bleeding girl of course. What does a man do when he rapes? While there are other ways, the most common is to force the girl laying down, face up, and then have the man lay on top of her forcing her down with his weight.  

 

That is why I read that scene as rape.

Please tell me if you think that line could mean anything else  

 

Spoiler

I suppose one could get covered in blood by cutting someone open if the blood spurts out onto the vile creature but I see what you mean. Honestly rape could be part of the ritual, it involves power and I think using carnal energies is a thing IRL.

 

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