Origin of magic

[StormblessDave]

I might be really dense, however I was struck by this question today. Are the magic systems, for instance on Roshar a result of the shattering of adonalsium and the settlement of the shards Honor and Cultivation on Roshar or did they exist pre-shattering? If they did not exist pre-shattering would there have been a single really powerful magic on the planet where Adonalsium resided? 

[Calderis]

This is a complicated question, and opinions vary. 

My take on it is that (and I'm going to restrict this to Roshar since you made this in the Stormlight forum) the magic system of Roshar, at it's base existed pre-shattering. 

At it's base, that consists of spren bonding with the flora and fauna, the Parshendi forms, and (if I'm correct) the evolution of the Sleepless. A bond focused system that was as much nature as it was magic, with no real magic beyond the natural occurrence of the surges in the size of greatshells and things such as that. 

Once the Shards arrived though, their investiture began to permeate the existing system, creating new spren ad bonds. Altering the nature of the Stormfather, and allowing new and more powerful expressions of the magic.

This in itself was a natural process, more born of the Shards presence than their plan, as evidenced by the unexpected arrival of surgebinding via the Spren. 

In short though, on a preexisting world, with a preexisting magic system (so pretty much any place that had life pre-shattering) I think that the Shards will expand the already existing magic systems. 

The only way to build a system from scratch would be to go to an empty world and create life (and possibly still have some interference, or to build a world and start from scratch. 

[Yata]

Like Calderis said.

We know little for the time before the Shattering, but we know there were already magic in those far times. We don't know if at that time the magic works differently or if Adonalsium was simply like a SuperShard.

We know there are places with no Shard with magic effects in there, this tell us that Shards are not required for the magic.

But Shards carries with themself tons of Investiture and if they remain in a place too long this investiture began to permeate where they are (I think you could imagine like osmosis with a Shard as an hyper concetrate amount of Investiture and the sorround with relative no Investiture). A Shard could actual Invest his Investiture in a place but with or without his will...over time the Investiture will began to Invest the planet.

At this point you will began to have a system more and more super saturated of Investiture and it will over time manifest has magic systems.

If the main theory is correct and the planet itself dictate to a degree the magic, this new formed magic systems will be on the same theme of the previous pre-shards one.

But notice the Shard does not design the magic systems, they are simply a manifestation of the Investiture on a planet....The Shard could influence them a bit if they will but the rules are mainly indipendent by their will

PS: I tried to leave this comment spoiler free for things beyond Stormlight Archive, if you want to discuss this more openly. I suggest you to open the topic in Cosmere Theories

Edited September 16, 2017 by Yata

[Ansalem]

I want to start by saying I could be completely wrong.

My understanding is that "magic" is inherent to the Cosmere in a few ways but that the Shards alter it or make it more easily accessible according to their intent.

The parts I think are inherent to the Cosmere would be the 3 Realms (Physical, Cognitive, Spiritual) and Investiture. I don't know enough to comment on how the Realms work, so I'll just not try. But for Investiture, you can think of it as being a third fundamental aspect of physics. That is to say, we have matter and energy and the Cosmere also has Investiture. It exists everywhere to some extent and the laws of thermodynamics apply to it (or at least something similar). If our universe had Investiture, we would not consider it magic, we would study it the same as we study all physics. Our kids would learn about it in physics textbooks. It's basically just super energy, really. Shards don't create it, they just alter its functionality or accessibility within their influence. Without Shards there are still worlds with magic, and there are forms of magic or magical entities that existed before Adonalsium was shattered. Roshar for example had spren, highstorms (not sure if they were Invested then though), and presumably the Rhythms before any Shards arrived.

The thing I don't know (and I don't think anyone but Brandon does) is whether Investiture existed before Adonalsium came into existence. For that matter, I don't know if Adonalsium always existed or not. My personal guess is that Adonalsium was created somehow by Investing something or someone very heavily, but it's just a guess. For all I know, Adonalsium created the Cosmere, but I choose to believe otherwise until given some reason not to.

[Yezrien]

To answer a little more simply, I think we can make a few of concrete statements.

Spren existed on Roshar before the Shattering. Some of the spren-based nature magic, like what allows greatshells to grow so big, most likely predates the Shattering.

Surgebinding probably developed after the Shattering, since (as far as we know) it started when Honor made the Honorblades.

The Old Magic is also most likely post-shattering, since it's connected with Cultivation.

There were human-used magic systems in the cosmere before the Shattering, but we know very little about them. Something like lightweaving may have existed on Yolen, which is where the original Shardholders are from, but we don't know whether Adonalsium himself resided there.

[Aleksiel]

The magic that came from Honor and Cultivation is unlikely to predate their presence on Roshar, because otherwise why have magic from them, but not from other Shards? More importantly we know for certain Honor created the Honorblades and they were powered by him, so that kind of surgebinding is directly created by him then and not something from before. Does that mean he created the surges though? Or did he simply use something already part of that specific world? 

We don't know much about the Old magic and about the rest it depends on your definition of magic. Do Parshendi bond spren because of magic for example or do we consider that natural fenomenon? What about the Sleepless, do they count as having magic? 

I believe magic in general does exist pre-Adonalsium shattering, but I also tend to think the specific magic systems we see on different Shard worlds are the result of certain Shards settling there. We've seen Hoid's magic works on Roshar and WoB has it Vasher can use stormlight, so there is some compatibility between all investiture and magic systems, however I can't say whether the magic system themselves are the way they are because the Shards created them that way or the Shards only molded something preexisting that can not be replicated elsewhere.

By that I mean could Honor have created surgebinding on every planet or would the Honorblades works as they do only on Roshar? I have no answer for that, although I'm more inclined to say yes, they would work the same anywhere he invested. However surgebinding could not have been replicated elsewhere the way the spren did it. It's interesting to note spren could have created surgebinding without Honor if they had the mind for it. They simply borrowed the idea according to what we know so far, so I'd say the supports the likelihood of having magic in the Cosmere before Adonalsium shattered.

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

-snip-

Any magic predating Honor, Cultivation, and Odium on Roshar is from Adonalsium. No other Shards have been there. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=691#13

Quote

CHAOS

How many Shards have existed on Roshar?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Three

 

Edited September 17, 2017 by Calderis

[Aleksiel]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

Any magic predating Honor, Cultivation, and Odium on Roshar is from Adonalsium. No other Shards have been there. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=691#13

 

That was kind of my point, actually, may be not articulated well enough. 

Although I don't completely agree with the 'from Adonalsium' part, that depends on your definition. Did it come directly from Adonalsium or is it just part of how the cosmere works? We don't know enough.

[Calderis]

14 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

Although I don't completely agree with the 'from Adonalsium' part, that depends on your definition. Did it come directly from Adonalsium or is it just part of how the cosmere works? We don't know enough.

Prior to the Shattering, I'm of the opinion that all investiture came from Adonalsium. 

So yes, it is just how the Cosmere works. It was built that way. 

[Toaster Retribution]

6 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

It's interesting to note spren could have created surgebinding without Honor if they had the mind for it. 

I doubt this. Most of the KR spren are probably created or at least affected by Honor and Cultivation. I doubt random spren alone would have the power to grant Surges. They were in some way given power by Shards.

[Calderis]

4 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I doubt this. Most of the KR spren are probably created or at least affected by Honor and Cultivation. I doubt random spren alone would have the power to grant Surges. They were in some way given power by Shards.

Agreed, without Honor and Cultivation, the natural bonds on Roshar are the extent of the progression of Roshar's magic. 

[Aleksiel]

47 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I doubt this. Most of the KR spren are probably created or at least affected by Honor and Cultivation. I doubt random spren alone would have the power to grant Surges. They were in some way given power by Shards.

From WoR:

Quote

“I was surprised when these orders arrived. I did not teach my Heralds this. It was the spren—wishing to imitate what I had given men—who made it possible.

I don't see a reason to believe spren couldn't have have bonded men before him, they probably just had no reason to consider such a thing. Honor certainly didn't realize it was possible, so he didn't affect them, at least not intentionally. Of course, you can interpret it another way, but Tanavast takes no credit for Nahel bonds and the surgebinding that comes from it.

[Calderis]

32 minutes ago, Aleksiel said:

From WoR:

I don't see a reason to believe spren couldn't have have bonded men before him, they probably just had no reason to consider such a thing. Honor certainly didn't realize it was possible, so he didn't affect them, at least not intentionally. Of course, you can interpret it another way, but Tanavast takes no credit for Nahel bonds and the surgebinding that comes from it.

It's because the Nahel Spren didn't exist prior to the Shards arrival. All of the Nahel Spren are some mix of honor and Cultivation. The Spren that existed before are not strong enough. 

Spoilered for length. 

Spoiler

DJARSKUBLAR

So, say you have a gold/gold Twinborn and they worldhop to Roshar and they study the magic and do the whole Khriss and Nazh thing for a while so that they know a lot about the magic, but they've also left themselves a lot of options with what they can do. So then they manage to pull up a gold shadow of them having actually become a Surgebinder and then kind of meld themselves with that shadow a bunch, could they change their Cognitive Identity enough so that they could, like, tap a lot of Gold and grow the spren and actually be a Surgebinder?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Unfortunately, no. It's a good question, but no. That won't work for a couple of reasons. One of which is simply creating Investiture is not something that can happen, right?

DJARSKUBLAR

They are a gold Twinborn, so they can tap a lot of gold...

BRANDON SANDERSON

They can tap a whole bunch, that's true, they can do that, but simply having it is not gonna create a spren because the spren is from a different god, right, a different Shard.

DJARSKUBLAR

So if they had Regrowth cast on them, would that do it?

BRANDON SANDERSON

hems and haws for a second.

DJARSKUBLAR

A really, really big Regrowth like in the middle of a Highstorm.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Hmmm, this, you are getting to the realm of plausibility at that point. I still don't think gold is the way to do it. I think you just get all that Investiture. It would become sapient by you sticking a whole bunch of Investiture, and then you can bond to that. But it's not like people gain what you would have done. Does that make sense? That's just what's going to happen, is you're gonna, you can create a, potentially create a spren that way, but you are more likely to end up with something like Nightblood. But you could potentially create a spren, but I mean you're just gonna end up...

DJARSKUBLAR

So there are more optimal ways to do that?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, go bond a spren. (evil grin of course)

DJARSKUBLAR

But you can't easily bond multiple, and if you did this you could maybe get multiple.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Nyeaaahhh... The spren still has to choose. If you want to be a Surgebinder, the choice is being made. You can't fake your way into it. Decision and Honor are too much a part of Surgebinding for you to be able to fake your way into that. Other magics you might be able to do that. Other magics that don't require, like, Surgebinding works because a piece of Honor or Cultivation or a mix has chosen you specifically. There is will from the actual Investiture involved in it in Roshar.

DJARSKUBLAR

Okay.

BRANDON SANDERSON

So it's not something you can cheat your way into, right. But cheating your way into Breath might be easier, right.

 

[The One Who Connects]

6 hours ago, Aleksiel said:

Did it come directly from Adonalsium or is it just part of how the Cosmere works?

Roshar was specifically "grown" by Adonalsium, so what do you think?

[Aleksiel]

3 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Roshar was specifically "grown" by Adonalsium, so what do you think?

Too many WoB to keep track of them all, that's what I think 

This opens the interesting possibility of seeing a magic system that was designed by Adonalsium pre-shattering. 

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, Aleksiel said:

Too many WoB to keep track of them all, that's what I think 

Just takes practice. (And remembering some vague, but clever, search terms )

1 minute ago, Aleksiel said:

This opens the interesting possibility of seeing a magic system that was designed by Adonalsium pre-shattering. 

I'd like to talk to you about First of the Sun.

Quote

Question

What differentiates a minor Shardworld like First of the Sun?

Brandon Sanderson

The amount of Investiture, and whether there is actually a Shard in presence.

Question

I'm assuming there is not one there?

Brandon Sanderson

No. What you'll find is that the worlds were all created with a level of-- a little bit of sort of ambient magic. What you'll find in worlds like that is things like, Shadows for Silence and things like this, the magic, it's not necessarily "people with magic" it's you can interact with nature...

Question

So there is inherent investiture...

Brandon Sanderson

There is inherent investiture in every world created but you are going to see-- You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.

[Aleksiel]

5 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

Just takes practice. (And remembering some vague, but clever, search terms )

I'd like to talk to you about First of the Sun.

Cool, thanks! Now that's another good reason to finally read Sixth of Dusk.

[Confused]

First of the Sun does hold Adonalsium's inherent Investiture, but the Patji Shardpool Investiture must come from a Shard that no longer resides there. Otherwise, it would not be a "Shardworld," minor or major. There are many planets Shards never visited, but each of those planets IMO still holds the inherent Investiture Adonalsium left on them. Those are planets, not Shardworlds. First of the Sun is a Minor Shardworld. Hence, its Investiture must come in part from a Shard.

I agree with most of the comments here, with unnamed exceptions. @StormblessDave, if you haven't yet read it, you might look at my post entitled "Pre-Shattering Magic." It presents my theory on the "baseline" magic of four Major Shardworlds. I discuss Roshar first and in depth.

[Calderis]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

First of the Sun does hold Adonalsium's inherent Investiture, but the Patji Shardpool Investiture must come from a Shard that no longer resides there. Otherwise, it would not be a "Shardworld," minor or major. There are many planets Shards never visited, but each of those planets IMO still holds the inherent Investiture Adonalsium left on them. Those are planets, not Shardworlds. First of the Sun is a Minor Shardworld. Hence, its Investiture must come in part from a Shard.

This is the first I've ever seen this. To my knowledge, every planet in the Cosmere is a "Shardworld" Major/Minor just indicates that a Shard is in residence. 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1094#21

Quote

QUESTION

What differentiates a minor Shardworld like First of the Sun?

BRANDON SANDERSON

The amount of Investiture, and whether there is actually a Shard in presence.

QUESTION

I'm assuming there is not one there?

BRANDON SANDERSON

There is not one there.

QUESTION

So it's like a Splintered one from something else?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No what you'll find is that the worlds were all created with a level of-- a little bit of sort of ambient magic. What you'll find in worlds like that is things like, Shadows for Silence and things like this, the magic, it's not necessarily "people with magic" it's you can interact with nature...

QUESTION

So there is inherent investiture...

BRANDON SANDERSON

There is inherent investiture in every world created but you are going to see-- You aren't going to find Mistborn on a world like that but what you might find is a way there are magic aspects to the setting. Spren could exist on a world like that but they would be like the minor spren, you wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.

 

[Confused]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

This is the first I've ever seen this. To my knowledge, every planet in the Cosmere is a "Shardworld" Major/Minor just indicates that a Shard is in residence. 

Brandon’s never said all planets are Shardworlds. The questioner in the WoB you and @The One Who Connects quote asks Brandon the difference between Major and Minor Shardworlds. The WoB doesn’t address the difference between Shardworlds and other planets.

Why would a planet created by Adonalsium, that holds only his inherent Investiture, that no Shard ever visited or Invested, be called a Shardworld? Maybe an “Adonalsium-world…” The Shards divvied up Adonalsium’s power in the Shattering, the Spiritual Realm’s “true Investiture.” But pre-existing local planetary Investiture – Adonalsium’s inherent Investiture – stayed as it was, except to the extent Shards changed it.

They did change the Investiture of Shardworlds. That’s why I think only those worlds are called “Shardworlds.” But Shards didn’t do anything on most cosmere planets. Khriss says many lack perpendicularities, despite their inherent Investiture.

I rely on the quoted WoB for the distinction between “interaction with magic” systems and “people with magic” systems and for the notion that “every world created” (except Scadrial) holds Adonalsium’s inherent Investiture. I think this is an extremely important, foundational WoB for understanding the cosmere and its magic. But the WoB doesn’t say “every world created is now a Shardworld,” and I don’t believe such a WoB exists (though maybe you guys can find one).

P.S. Hey, I just realized this is my "pi" post!

Edited September 23, 2017 by Confused
To add postscript.

[Calderis]

Yeah. Still disagree. I think the WoB is fairly clear. 

[The One Who Connects]

On 9/23/2017 at 0:26 PM, Confused said:

but the Patji Shardpool Investiture must come from a Shard that no longer resides there. Otherwise, it would not be a "Shardworld," minor or major.

Make your assumptions on what a "natural manifestation" implies. You too @Calderis, this is y'alls discussion, not mine.

Quote

Q: As you've stated that the magic of First of the Sun is natural and independent of any particular Shard, what is the nature of the pool on Patji? Is it also a natural manifestation of magic, a Perpendicularity, or simply a pool like any other?
 
A: It's a natural manifestation, but on a much smaller scale than you might find on other worlds.