Allomantic Cyanide

[Borio Singaldi]

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but it occurred to me that it might be possible to ingest ettmetal. Like, if you completely coated it in a specific metal that would be suitable to an Allomancer (i.e. tin for Tineyes and pewter for Thugs) and then got them to swallow and burn the metal? Then once that metal is completely burned away, then the ettmetal is all that remains in the stomach, and its natural reaction to liquids -- in this case, the stomach juices -- causes it to explode while inside the person's body, effectively killing them. This may be done discreetly by one person to another as an assassination or intentionally to oneself as a self-sacrifice. In short, ettmetal could be used like an Allomantic cyanide pill.

How likely of a possibility to y'all think that is?

[Calderis]

Pretty much only intentionally to yourself I'd assume. 

Considering most allomancers consume flaked metal shavings in an alcohol solution, convincing someone to swallow a chunk large enough to conceal a piece of ettmetal would be... Problematic. 

[Agent34]

Vin was tricked into swallowing a ball of "atium" and I think there are other instances of metal beads being used as fuel.

[Calderis]

4 hours ago, Agent34 said:

Vin was tricked into swallowing a ball of "atium" and I think there are other instances of metal beads being used as fuel.

Atium was used in beads because it's burn rate was insane. The only other time we've seen beads that I'm aware of was pewter drags. When Vin and Kel ran for mole and miles. 

Atium isn't exactly an issue anymore, and transportation is a little bit more convenient than it was in TFE. 

[Steeldancer]

I would rather find a safe way to burn ettmetal. 

[Borio Singaldi]

14 hours ago, Calderis said:

Pretty much only intentionally to yourself I'd assume. 

Considering most allomancers consume flaked metal shavings in an alcohol solution, convincing someone to swallow a chunk large enough to conceal a piece of ettmetal would be... Problematic. 

You make a very good point there. (Unless maybe the ettmetal was also a really tiny flake, but who knows?) And while it could still be done for a Thug making a pewter drag...

7 hours ago, Calderis said:

transportation is a little bit more convenient than it was in TFE.

That makes pewter dragging virtually unnecessary. Another good point. Well, if it works, I suppose there could be some super devoted members of the Set or related groups willing to sacrifice themselves by doing that. But too bad for hoping for an assassination attempt with it.

6 hours ago, Steeldancer said:

I would rather find a safe way to burn ettmetal. 

That's the thing: While I'm sure ettmetal may has an Allomantic capability and can be burned, its reaction to liquids would make it virtually impossible to find a safe way to do so. Or... what if its temperature was altered enough so that it didn't explode on contact? Meh, I suppose we'll see at some point.

[YungDankBlast]

On 9/11/2017 at 2:14 PM, Firerust said:

You make a very good point there. (Unless maybe the ettmetal was also a really tiny flake, but who knows?) And while it could still be done for a Thug making a pewter drag...

That makes pewter dragging virtually unnecessary. Another good point. Well, if it works, I suppose there could be some super devoted members of the Set or related groups willing to sacrifice themselves by doing that. But too bad for hoping for an assassination attempt with it.

Suicide bombing assassinations?  I wouldn't put it past the Set...

What I thought about is that you said that ettmetal reacts to liquids by exploding, but wouldn't coating a piece of it require you to coat it in liquid metal?  I'm not saying that it can't happen, I'm just pointing out that we only know that it explodes on contact with water, not other substances (like, say... stomach acid?).  If it doesn't explode on contact with liquid metal, it could be possible that it could be burned allomantically. (though in my opinion, I kind a doubt it... sorry).

[Metalrift]

I suspect the safest way to burn ettmetal is to burn an alloy of it that is less reactive than pure ettmetal. Changing the conditions inside the Mistborn so that ettmetal does not react would most likely lead to death. Alloys could show some of the possibilities of A-ettmetal while still being safe to use. If ettmetal burns very quickly then it may also be possible to use pure ettmetal through CayJoBla's idea, although I would recommend coating it in duralumin to be on the safe side.

An easier way to assassinate allomancers would be to spike their metals with cadmium or some other highly toxic metal.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Metalrift

[Borio Singaldi]

1 minute ago, CayJoBla said:

Suicide bombing assassinations?  I wouldn't put it past the Set...

What I thought about is that you said that ettmetal reacts to liquids by exploding, but wouldn't coating a piece of it require you to coat it in liquid metal?  I'm not saying that it can't happen, I'm just pointing out that we only know that it explodes on contact with water, not other substances (like, say... stomach acid?).  If it doesn't explode on contact with liquid metal, it could be possible that it could be burned allomantically. (though in my opinion, I kind a doubt it... sorry).

No need to apologize, you were simply offering your contrary opinion and broadening the perspective. Thank you for your thoughts on the matter; they have been noted. I'd been skirting around those topics, anyway, and they needed to be said. I'd considered that ettmetal's explosive effects would only come from water, and that stomach acid wouldn't work, but I wanted to avoid that thought for the sake of a good theory. And the metal coating needing to be liquid at one point... honestly, I never thought of that.

[Metalrift]

Ettmetal is speculated to have alkali metal reactivity, which would be like sodium or potassium in water or hydrochloric acid. If this is the case, then it will not explode on contact with molten metals, as they do not have the same reaction with alkali metals that acids such as hydrochloric acid or water do. Depending on the melting point of ettmetal it may be possible to coat it in metal and in dry conditions there is no risk of explosion in doing so. Alkali metals do not explode on contact with all liquids, only those which are reduced to a potentially explosive compound (such as water to hydrogen) in a fast, highly exothermic reaction.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Metalrift
Clarity

[Agent34]

37 minutes ago, Metalrift said:

I suspect the safest way to burn ettmetal is to burn an alloy of it that is less reactive than pure ettmetal. Changing the conditions inside the Mistborn so that ettmetal does not react would most likely lead to death. Alloys could show some of the possibilities of A-ettmetal while still being safe to use. If ettmetal burns very quickly then it may also be possible to use pure ettmetal through CayJoBla's idea, although I would recommend coating it in duralumin to be on the safe side.

An easier way to assassinate allomancers would be to spike their metals with cadmium or some other highly toxic metal.

Cadmium has allomantic value and is burnable. Lead would probably be a better choice.

[YungDankBlast]

14 minutes ago, Metalrift said:

Ettmetal is speculated to have alkali metal reactivity, which would be like sodium or potassium in water or hydrochloric acid. If this is the case, then it will not explode on contact with molten metals, as they do not have the same reaction with alkali metals that acids such as hydrochloric acid or water do. Depending on the melting point of ettmetal it may be possible to coat it in metal and in dry conditions there is no risk of explosion in doing so. Alkali metals do not explode on contact with all liquids, only those which are reduced to a potentially explosive compound (such as water to hydrogen) in a fast, highly exothermic reaction.

So there we go, Allomancer bombs are still a thing.

Thank goodness I was worried for a second...

[Metalrift]

My idea was that a Mistborn would use the metal coating intentionally in the hope of being able to burn it quickly enough that it does not explode, hence the duralumin just in case. While it may be possible to use ettmetal as an explosive in such a way, the tiny amount that would be used is unlikely to kill anyone but the person who ate it.

Ultimately, the reaction that would occur is that the ettmetal would react with stomach juices to give heat and hydrogen gas, which would then explode. Such a tiny amount of ettmetal is extremely unlikely to produce enough hydrogen to cause a large explosion, so the biggest issue is burning the stomach, which would only be fatal to the person who ate the ettmetal. It is important though to keep in mind that the realmatics of the reaction are unknown and I based my suggestions on the reactivity of caesium, which is not identical to ettmetal.

Pagerunner started a useful topic called "the chemistry of God metals" which has more useful information concerning ettmetal, which I suggest you read. It is far more useful than my posts in this thread.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Metalrift

[Alfa]

By the way, why not just coat conventional cyanide (or another poison) in a bit of steel? Less flashy, but cheaper and effective enough, don't you think?

[Quickbronze]

I am personally of the opinion that Ettmetal is the metal that can store any Feruchemical attribute(There's a WOB that says such a metal exists)

Of course, that would mean it has an allomantic purpose as well but due to stomach-exploding problems mentioned above they probably won't explode

Unless there isn't enough water in stomach acid to trigger it... I don't know the chemical composition of stomach acid, and we don't know what concentration of water is required to make ettmetal blow

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

Maybe machining the ettmetal into a much finer solution would work? Tiny grains rather than visible flakes?

Edited November 30, 2017 by Unlicensed Hemalurgist

[Alfa]

On 30.11.2017 at 2:50 AM, Unlicensed Hemalurgist said:

Maybe machining the ettmetal into a much finer solution would work? Tiny grains rather than visible flakes?

Actually, worse. Unfortunally grains would have more surface and therefore would react even stronger than flakes.

[Unlicensed Hemalurgist]

7 hours ago, Alfa said:

Actually, worse. Unfortunally grains would have more surface and therefore would react even stronger than flakes.

Curse you, Square Cube Law! *shakes fist at chalkboard* 

[MacThorstenson]

 

On 11/28/2017 at 8:24 PM, Ookla the Noble said:

I am personally of the opinion that Ettmetal is the metal that can store any Feruchemical attribute(There's a WOB that says such a metal exists)

Of course, that would mean it has an allomantic purpose as well but due to stomach-exploding problems mentioned above they probably won't explode

Unless there isn't enough water in stomach acid to trigger it... I don't know the chemical composition of stomach acid, and we don't know what concentration of water is required to make ettmetal blow

Two thoughts. The first is that we know that ettmetal's reactivity is caused by the discord between the two shards power, preservation and ruin, feruchemy is also caused by a mix between the two shards power, so I think that its likely that ettmetal is able to steal any feruchemical ability. 

My second thought is that we know that using hemalurgy changes the physiology of a body, otherwise inquisitors would be dead. My thought is, would it be possible to Hemalurgically change your body to not need water at all, thus providing a water free environment for ettmetal to be burned?

[Borio Singaldi]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Capricious said:

My second thought is that we know that using hemalurgy changes the physiology of a body, otherwise inquisitors would be dead. My thought is, would it be possible to Hemalurgically change your body to not need water at all, thus providing a water free environment for ettmetal to be burned?

Woah. Good thinking. I don't know how possible such a thing is through Hemalurgy, but please let this be a thing. That's a really good idea. 'Cause otherwise I don't see how ettmetal can be burned, and we all want to know what Allomantic ability it could provide.

[The One Who Connects]

On 12/2/2017 at 2:23 PM, Ookla the Capricious said:

My second thought is that we know that using hemalurgy changes the physiology of a body, otherwise inquisitors would be dead. My thought is, would it be possible to Hemalurgically change your body to not need water at all, thus providing a water free environment for ettmetal to be burned?

I don't think Hemalurgy can spike in/out the need(or lack thereof) for water. That said, there is a possible way for Hemalurgy to provide Ettmetal in Allomantically viable form.

Referencing that one time I called Hemalurgy safer than Allomancy:

On 1/21/2017 at 7:09 PM, The One Who Connects said:

Hemalurgy moves the brain and/or heart out of the way of the spike.. somehow. It twists them into something almost inhuman. That's a little different than having a reactive metal in your stomach, especially since Brandon said they have to manually burn them before sleeping to avoid metal poisoning. Allomancy doesn't seem to have the same survival safeguards that Hemalurgy does.

Edit: Did I really just say that?

In addition to the aforementioned moving heart/brain out of the way, Hemalurgic Spikes wounds should also heal, or else Marsh would've bled out when Vin yanked the spike out of his eye(There's also Vin's earring.) A barrier like that, away from organs and possibly even blood would be pretty water-free, but still "internal" enough to be burned.

Edit: it might still explode when spiking such and such ability out of the first person though. Which would be a problem.

[Nashan’Elin]

As long as you could get the ettmetal somewhere into your body, you could theoretically burn it, if you were good enough. The problem is, basically all of the inside of your body is wet. So that doesn’t really help. 

Do we know if you could (if you were very skilled and thinking about it the right way) burn a metal that’s in your mouth, not swallowed? So really dry out your mouth and put some ettmetal in there, maybe. 

[the winter system]

On 9/11/2017 at 1:43 AM, Ookla the Rusty said:

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but it occurred to me that it might be possible to ingest ettmetal. Like, if you completely coated it in a specific metal that would be suitable to an Allomancer (i.e. tin for Tineyes and pewter for Thugs) and then got them to swallow and burn the metal? Then once that metal is completely burned away, then the ettmetal is all that remains in the stomach, and its natural reaction to liquids -- in this case, the stomach juices -- causes it to explode while inside the person's body, effectively killing them. This may be done discreetly by one person to another as an assassination or intentionally to oneself as a self-sacrifice. In short, ettmetal could be used like an Allomantic cyanide pill.

How likely of a possibility to y'all think that is?

I think the better method would be cyanid cyanid. 

[Borio Singaldi]

4 hours ago, winter devotion said:

I think the better method would be cyanid cyanid. 

Yes, this has been mentioned already. I suppose it would be better.

...Now I'm hoping Mistborn Era 3 is gonna use that instead. Forget ettmetal suicide, let's just save that metal for city-leveling bombs!

[Carbonationspren]

Is there any canon that says that the metal inside you must be touching you to be burned? If an Allomancer swallowed, say, a copper-coated Ettmetal bead, then burned the Ettmetal before burning the copper, that seems to solve the problem. The copper would act as an insulator while the Ettmetal was used, then could be safely burned away after the Ettmetal reserves were gone.