Hallandren/Idris Treaty Question

[jklburns]

I'm sorry if this has been asked/answered -- I tried searching and I might have missed something.

I'm a bit confused on the strategic thinking behind the Idrian treaty with Hallandren.  We are told that the treaty was written to postpone war between the factions, and once the marriage consummated, to unite the factions and presumably resolve authority claims (The Idrians have the real royal family, but Hallandren has the armies and power; the Idrians realize the Hallandren's will eventually attack once they get what they want, presumably the royal bloodline, but it at least gave them a 22 years delay).

Support for that:  

In Chapter One, it says "The Hallendren needed a daughter of the royal blood to reintroduce the traditional bloodline into their monarchy.  It was something the depraved and vainglorious people of the lowlands had long coveted, and only that specific clause in the treaty had saved Idris these twenty years."

Question:  Why would the Hallandren priests agree to a treaty with the Idrians to marry one of the royal daughters to the God King to presumably produce a God King heir with "royal blood," when in all likelihood they would actually substitute another Returned baby as heir as part of their regular sham? Was Dedelin wrong about the motivations of the treaty on the part of the Hallandren's? And if so, why would they agree to postpone for 22 years if they got nothing in return but the off-but not guaranteed-chance that the daughter would produce a true heir?

Assuming Dedelin is not wrong about the motivations, playing this out strategically...they'd marry the Idrian daughter to the God King, she'd get pregnant (or not, but they'd claim she was), and then substitute in the Returned child, presuming she didn't actually get pregnant.  But what happens when the new God King clearly doesn't have "royal blood" and can't unconsciously change the color of his hair?

Returned can change their appearance at will, but most of them don't even realize that.  Whereas the Royal Family have to work hard and learn how to control their color changing hair, because it happens naturally with changing emotion.  Would the idea be that the Priests would "teach" the sham God King how to change his hair color at will to allay suspicion? 

I'm just not sure I see how this was supposed to play out in order to intermingle the blood lines.  I know there is a way for Returned to conceive, but there was no guarantee (at the time the treaty was made) that it would happen in this case. And we know that they have a substitute Returned baby ready and waiting when they pressured for the treaty terms to be fulfilled.

Edited September 11, 2017 by jklburns

[ParadoxicalZen]

For the first part, only the Godking's priests know about needing a Returned child, so Dedelin would have been none the wiser. As for the other part, I'm pretty sure they either would have came up with an excuse, or teach them how to. It's probable we'll find out in the eventual sequel

[jklburns]

Thank you for the response! But I'm afraid that doesn't really fully answer my question, as I already fed you the part about the priests teaching him how.  (Even if true, I believe it's a flimsy reasoning, one not mentioned at all in the book, and kind of a cheap way around a pretty major plot point.)

I may not have been originally clear, but the gist of my question was really geared more to whether I've missed something in the reading, not whether we can jump around with unwritten suppositions.  And we still don't have an answer re: intent. What was the intent of the treaty on the party of Hallandren if not to introduce the royal bloodline? Postponement of war got them what?

But since you bit on that part re: priests teaching, that brings up more questions -- Do the priests know that Returned can change their form at will? If you teach the God-King how to change his hair, what keeps him from providing himself with a tongue? Does doing any of that go against the belief that the God-King should not be using the Breath he is supposed to keep in trust (and the reason they removed the tongue in the first place)? Or would that not be considered using Breath since it wouldn't technically use up Breath?

Ultimately, it just feels like a major flaw in the line of thinking and I'm not getting a clear "ah, that's why they did it" moment.  It basically says there was no real strategy and/or reason for them to enter into the treaty, but now that we have it (the treaty) we've got to jump through hoops to make it work. You don't just give an opposing faction 22 free years for nothing (and more work for the side that gets nothing).  

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by jklburns

[Nathrangking]

@jklburns it was all about posturing and politics there was zero expectation of a royal child all that they needed was for it to appear that there had been one. War served no one's purposes as it would have been a waste on both sides. Not to mention that the Idrians in the city would have raised hell if Idris were attacked. Lets face it as it was the priesthood in Hallendren needed to continue to cement their control over their people. How better to do that than to end tensions between themselves and the Idrians? They could also be sure that if there were a returned child to be had that they would find said child. Their resources being as substantial as they are would ensure it. Event the appearance of a royal heir would solidify their control by finally granting them legitimacy that they craved. In short control was what they were after.

[Tsidqiyah]

Three things need to be considered here:

1. The priests past and present, and their returned
2. The need/desire for a blood Heir
3. The Treaty itself

First off, there are two sets of priests: the God-Kings Priests and the other priests. For the most part these priests are more politician than religious adviser, or defenders of doctrine. Even those serving the God-King have the primary purpose of protecting the hoard of breaths from being abused. Also remember that outside of the GKPriests many of the current priesthood were not around when the treaty was signed, as priests come and go with the Returned they serve. I am sure a few are still there (a core set of professional priests), but the feeling I got was this would be a limited group. From the few interactions Siri had with the current priests they seem to be 50/50 for and against war. But it is also mentioned that the earlier generation of returned were more beneficial which would imply so were their priests. So my guess the past events were either being influenced by the Phan-Khal (VERY LIKELY) toward a future war. or just political posturing for increased power to the priests.

Second the priests don't actually need a blood heir. According to the Coppermind (Article on Vo) they indeed know how to have it happen, though i suspect only the GKPriests have the secret. (This was uncited so if anyone has the WOB/source I would love to see it). But they don't even want a mortal heir; they want a returned one. As the priests outside the God-King's palace are not likely in on the whole baby swap the treaty was formed to honestly provide an heir with the royal locks. As was stated earlier the only ones that know about this whole baby swap is the GK-Priests. So while the whole royal blood heir may be a honest intent for the other priests, The GKPriests are going to continue with the facade as it has stood for 300 years anyway. And if they knew how to sire a child you can bet they knew how a returned could change appearance at will so faking the locks wouldn't be a problem.

Lastly, looking at both of the above points we can figure the treaty was exactly what is originally appeared to be. a way to give the God-King legitimacy in the eyes of his people. The Halladrien populace seemed to be against war as much as the Idrians were afraid of it, but the Phan-Khal machinations drove them to feel it was necessary. The Halladrens had an army that would have cost no lives and required no supply chains. Replacing the soldiers would have been expensive but that is money that the open trade routes war would have provided would have made back quickly. War was an all win for them, likely even 20 years earlier. The only thing war would not provide is the desire for legitimacy that is a core facet of human nature. so I have to assume that truly was the intent the treaty.

 

TLDR: The priests are more politicians that understood human nature, and the desire to believe our actions are legitimate. The treaty was built to provide legitimacy to their "rebellion" by giving their king royal blood, but the God Kings Priests were going to continue the traditions one way or another as there is no guarantee that Siri would have a child that would return. 

 

[Weltall]

To add, it's mentioned in the annotations that the priests would have preferred an actual child of Susebron and Siri because that gets the bloodline of Vo back into Hallandren but they would have used the Returned infant that the annotations state was born should Siri not have a child quickly enough. As far as the God King's own priests are concerned, the treaty and the timing of an infant Returning vindicate their faith but the end result wasn't critical for them. They just want the Breath store passed on safely and the treaty gives them an opportunity to do so. And since it did postpone the possibility of war for at least twenty years, it was a good deal for them even if they had to go with Plan B.

https://brandonsanderson.com/annotation-warbreaker-chapter-forty-four/

[Tsidqiyah]

@Weltall how have i not read those thank you.

[jklburns]

Thank you for the responses!

I'm still not convinced there was sound strategic reason behind the treaty on the party of the Hallandrens (I don't buy that they wanted a 20 year pause, that's what the Idrians wanted -- their incentive to enter into the treaty was to keep the Hallandrens from starting war sooner rather than later; the Hallandrens had no real reason to oppose going ahead and conquering unless they got something good out of waiting).  

I'll just have to accept the thought that those priests who had control of agreeing to the treaty weren't the same priests who were keeping the secrets regarding substitute God-King Returned babies.