How to kill a gold compounder?

[The One Who Connects]

7 minutes ago, Overstorm said:

The heart has several bindpoints.

I know that, but given the size of normal Hemalurgic Spikes, I'd expect many of those other bind points to be a bit mangled(around the part that just got spiked). Granted, the heart is probably a bit bigger than I think it is, but it still feels... like it'd be up to luck. For all we know the spike-out points for A-Gold and F-Gold are right next to each other, which would prevent the second spike from hitting it until the first is out of the way.

You are definitely right about using bullets as spikes. Didn't even think of those

[Oversleep]

38 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I know that, but given the size of normal Hemalurgic Spikes, I'd expect many of those other bind points to be a bit mangled(around the part that just got spiked). Granted, the heart is probably a bit bigger than I think it is, but it still feels... like it'd be up to luck. For all we know the spike-out points for A-Gold and F-Gold are right next to each other, which would prevent the second spike from hitting it until the first is out of the way.

Also, your previous post feels like you think that heart is univeral bindpoint or something. It's just got several so that it frequently picks up.

[The One Who Connects]

Just now, Overstorm said:

Also, your previous post feels like you think that heart is universal bindpoint or something. It's just got several so that it frequently picks up.

If you mean my post near the bottom of page 3, that was probably me momentarily forgetting it's got several close together mixed with thinking that the Inquisitors used it as a "semi-universal" point. I'd say more of the latter, but I wouldn't put it past myself to have simply forgotten here and there.

[ForcesOfNoodles]

Would cutting through the spine with a Shardblade work? Kaladin didn't seem to think that Stormlight would be able to heal that, but then again F-Gold heals way faster. It seems to kill instantly. I also remember reading a WoB saying that the Lord Ruler couldn't survive decapitation, unless the blade was thinner than his neck, in which case his neck would heal itself as the blade went through it. Although I guess some goldminds in his head would do it, since it takes about a 15 seconds after decapitation for the severed head to die.

[Calderis]

2 hours ago, ForcesOfNoodles said:

Would cutting through the spine with a Shardblade work? Kaladin didn't seem to think that Stormlight would be able to heal that, but then again F-Gold heals way faster. It seems to kill instantly. I also remember reading a WoB saying that the Lord Ruler couldn't survive decapitation, unless the blade was thinner than his neck, in which case his neck would heal itself as the blade went through it. Although I guess some goldminds in his head would do it, since it takes about a 15 seconds after decapitation for the severed head to die.

The Lord Ruler has survived decapitation and being burnt down to a skeleton. F-gold compounding trumps Stormlight healing by far because you can draw on it far faster then the rate at which Stormlight heals. 

Spoilered for length. 

Spoiler

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=944#6

Quote

SORONIR

About Miles from Alloy of Law and his regenerative powers. If he was bisected down the middle and the halves were separated immediately before the healing process could begin, would the two halves each regrow into a whole Miles?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Good question. In all of the Cosmere's Shard-based magics, the greater portion of a bisected body regrows the lesser portion. If it were done EXACTLY halfway, the soul wold jump to one or the other randomly and that would regrow.

Amusingly, this first came up in 1999, six years before I got published. (I see someone else already mentioned the situation where I had to consider it.)

HALO6819

As little add—on Sanderson has stated that at its core, Shard-based healing is about restoring the person back to themselves. So someone who wears glasses and gets shot and healed, will still need glasses as that is how they (or their soul) sees themself. I assume this would happen in more extreme cases too, some one who had a limb amputated at birth gets healed at another time, the limb will not be restored because they see themself as an amputee, even if it is within the magic's ability to restore limbs to some one who recently lost one.

PHANTINE

So... wait a sec, the Lord Ruler got decapitated at one point...

What did he do with the severed head? Mount it on the wall?

BRANDON SANDERSON

PHANTINE

He mounted it SIDEWAYS?

PHANTINE

Actually, this is kind of a sillier followup to a silly question, but could you use Forgery to say 'actually, this half had 51% instead of 49%' and temporarily clone Miles?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Boy. That's a can of worms, right there...

 

 

[An aluminium gnat]

what if you squish him with a weight enough to kill him but with enough surface area he would not be able to heal as he couldn't heal back to his original form.

ALSO:drop him in space

[Yata]

3 hours ago, ForcesOfNoodles said:

Would cutting through the spine with a Shardblade work? Kaladin didn't seem to think that Stormlight would be able to heal that, but then again F-Gold heals way faster. It seems to kill instantly.

Healing is able to heal someone cutted in the spine by a Shardblade, we know this from the WoR's ending (before the change but still canon in the mechanics)

Actually F-Gold isn't faster simply with F-Gold you could choose the ratio you tap from the Metalminds quite freely (also if high multipliers are less efficient) while with Stormlight's Healing your Healing's rate is strictly related to the amount of Stormlight you hold in that moment and you could not be as flexible as a Bloodmaker.

Regarding the Stormlight's healing in comparison to F-Gold, the first seems to be more limited than other Cosmere's Healing as it's stated that a Head crushing blow will be enough for a game over.

SPECULATION TIME ON:

I honestly think this happen not for a Stormlight's deficit but for Nahel's bond's reasons. When you recive a fatal blow, you (spoiler alert) die this always but someone with a Healing Power could still activate it to recover from the damage and in the end auto-resurrect itself. The tricky part is with Nahel's Surgebinding because the power based on the bond and the Bonds are released at the moment of death...This mean that a fatal blow, kill the Surgebinder, release the Bond and the Surgebinder has no more the power to heal himself.

SPECULATION TIME OFF:

Now I want to propose another way to kill a Gold Compounder but this way could work only for a very expert and savant one (and I know this is quite strange).

A Compounder's soul will be over time twisted by the amount of Investiture managed and as Rashek the stable metalminds will become slowly part of the owner's Spirit-web.

Removing one of those Metalmind will cause a Spiritual Shock and probably the owner will be unable to actual use his power in a timeframe afterwork (by the way this is the exact way Rashek was defeated) and this leave an open window to kill him.

Of course this "plan" has a deadly fault, we don't know if a lifetime is enough for the change to happen, Rashek was 1000 years old and the only other similar cases in the Cosmere was probably still older than him. But I wanted to propose it.

[The One Who Connects]

14 hours ago, ForcesOfNoodles said:

I also remember reading a WoB saying that the Lord Ruler couldn't survive decapitation, unless the blade was thinner than his neck, in which case his neck would heal itself as the blade went through it.

Never seen that entry before, but we have this entry here, so it's not an issue.

Quote

[–]Logic_Nuke 9 points 2 years ago 

I heard you were still answering questions, so:

1. Could decapitation kill a Gold Compounder? With a guillotine, for example?

[–]mistborn[S] 11 points 2 years ago 

1. Most forms of extreme Cosmere healing don't care much what is done to the physical body, as the person's spiritual template is in power at the time.

---

11 hours ago, An aluminium gnat said:

drop him in space

I'm a little surprised it's taken this long for someone to bring this up. I don't think it's that simple, all things considered.

The lack of oxygen is meaningless, as Miles is on the record for healing dying brain cells from a lack of oxygen. The healing would help him survive any impacts with micro-debris, and possibly keep him intact despite the lack of pressure in space. Gold healing can keep a body intact in the face of a lot of things.

If there is a space station/mars colony , he can possibly break back in without too much trouble, provided he's got the momentum in space. Anyone on here wanna give me the odds on a Gold Compounder surviving atmospheric reentry?

11 hours ago, Yata said:

SPECULATION TIME ON:

I honestly think this happens for Nahel's bond's reasons. When you receive a fatal blow, you (spoiler alert) die but someone with a Healing Power could still activate it to recover from the damage and in the end auto-resurrect itself. The tricky part is with Nahel's Surgebinding because the power based on the bond and the Bonds are released at the moment of death...This mean that a fatal blow, kill the Surgebinder, release the Bond and the Surgebinder has no more the power to heal himself.

I really like this logic. Consider me a fan of this theory.

[kenod]

34 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

I'm a little surprised it's taken this long for someone to bring this up. I don't think it's that simple, all things considered.

The lack of oxygen is meaningless, as Miles is on the record for healing dying brain cells from a lack of oxygen. The healing would help him survive any impacts with micro-debris, and possibly keep him intact despite the lack of pressure in space. Gold healing can keep a body intact in the face of a lot of things.

If there is a space station/mars colony , he can possibly break back in without too much trouble, provided he's got the momentum in space. Anyone on here wanna give me the odds on a Gold Compounder surviving atmospheric reentry?

We already discussed this one on page 2, although the discussion mostly changed to a discussion on the plausibility of using the gravitation surge to do it.

[The One Who Connects]

3 minutes ago, kenod said:

We already discussed this one on page 2, although the discussion mostly changed to a discussion on the plausibility of using the gravitation surge to do it.

Oh right that did happen. I suppose it's only fitting that we argue "how we get into this situation" before arguing if the situation has merit. Not much i can say that wasn't already said back then, besides me thinking that it'd take several lashings to have a meaningful impact(stuck in orbit/actually launched out into space, as opposed to his going up and then falling back down)

[FiveLate]

13 hours ago, Yata said:

SPECULATION TIME ON:

I honestly think this happen not for a Stormlight's deficit but for Nahel's bond's reasons. When you recive a fatal blow, you (spoiler alert) die this always but someone with a Healing Power could still activate it to recover from the damage and in the end auto-resurrect itself. The tricky part is with Nahel's Surgebinding because the power based on the bond and the Bonds are released at the moment of death...This mean that a fatal blow, kill the Surgebinder, release the Bond and the Surgebinder has no more the power to heal himself.

I really like this explanation.  Thanks for the new head Canon Yata.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

About the aluminum bullets/swords/spears, as well as brains, here is my theory:

When you have a physical body, your Cognitive aspect is tied to your body, and limited by it, which is part of why you can't do a bunch of stuff that Cognitive Shadows can do. If you die, that bond is severed, and your Cognitive Aspect is no longer limited by your physical aspect. Which is why I think that if your brain were crushed, or otherwise in a braindead situation, but you didn't die, your mental capacities would be limited by the physical condition of the brain, while not being free (you aren't dead). Otherwise, brain diseases would be impossible, and being lightheaded or drunk wouldn't affect your mental capabilities, as your Cognitive Aspect isn't affected directly by alcohol, etc.

So were the sword/bullet/spear comes in is that you can't heal wounds around aluminum. So if you can leave some aluminum (like some bullets, or just holding a sword) in a critical part of the brain that leaves the gold compounder braindead and unable to control his limbs, then Gold-Compounding-Savanthood might keep them healing, but it wouldn't matter, as they would be completely trapped, being unable to act. Actually, it would be worse than death, as you wouldn't even move on. It would be like a coma that you'd only wake from if someone removed the aluminum, or if you'd run out of healing and died.

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

I'm going to throw in my two cents:

Pour a bucket of molten aluminum on them. The burns won't heal, and they will be trapped in a molten metal tomb until their metal minds run out.

[Yata]

30 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I'm going to throw in my two cents:

Pour a bucket of molten aluminum on them. The burns won't heal, and they will be trapped in a molten metal tomb until their metal minds run out.

What stop them from removing the Alluminium from their skin ? Because it's just an original way to the theme "stop him and make him suffer continous damage"

[Faceless Mist-Wraith]

1 hour ago, Yata said:

What stop them from removing the Alluminium from their skin ? Because it's just an original way to the theme "stop him and make him suffer continous damage"

By bucket, I mean a big amusement park sized bucket, so the amount of aluminum would likely overwhelm them. The Aluminum is effectively liquid, so they wouldn't be able to remove it until it cools, and by that point they would be unable to move. Really, if you are worried about them taking it off, you can always just switch things around and throw them into a bucket of molten aluminum.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Faceless Mist-Wraith

[Yata]

1 hour ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

By bucket, I mean a big amusement park sized bucket, so the amount of aluminum would likely overwhelm them. The Aluminum is effectively liquid, so they wouldn't be able to remove it until it cools, and by that point they would be unable to move. Really, if you are worried about them taking it off, you can always just switch things around and throw them into a bucket of molten aluminum.

My point was that also every other molten metal Will be the same as also hit him with water, then bind Jim with simple chain and put his head in a water filled bucket XD

Your solution is soo expansive and hard to put in Place XD (carry around tons of molten metal is quite hard)

[Velvet Thunder]

On 9/13/2017 at 4:44 PM, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

By bucket, I mean a big amusement park sized bucket, so the amount of aluminum would likely overwhelm them. The Aluminum is effectively liquid, so they wouldn't be able to remove it until it cools, and by that point they would be unable to move. Really, if you are worried about them taking it off, you can always just switch things around and throw them into a bucket of molten aluminum.

Sets up for a typical bad guy story:

Bad guy can't be killed, so the hero's trap them inside metal/rock/etc. No one is ever allowed to set foot on the premises.

Years and years go by, and either people slowly forget or a large world event happens and the knowledge of the place disappears.

One day some young kids are playing and stumble on this area. They accidentally damage or 'crack' the stone/metal or something of the sorts and the evil guy gets out as he is miraculously still alive, narrative similar to Illidan from Warcraft when hes been imprisoned, to terrorize the world once more. Kids grow up to find the knowledge that he is a gold compounder and defeat the evil by trapping him again, and the cycle repeats.

Edited September 22, 2017 by Velvet Thunder

[NegativeG]

On 8/26/2017 at 11:57 PM, Zmaray said:

Gold compounders can heal on both the physical and spiritual realms (maybe cognitive as well?). Aside from ripping out their metal minds, could anything kill them?

I personally think that if you beheaded them with Nightblood, it would destroy both their spirit and conscience as well as their body, meaning that the metalminds cannot be metabolised by the person in order to grow back a new head.

So if a Gold compounder can heal from spiritual and physical damage, does that mean that you could use a Hemalurgical spike and steal their Gold powers and maybe their physical attributes and then they could heal from those wounds? Could you mass produce Hemalurgical healing spikes? or is the damage caused by Hemalurgy too much to heal from?

Edited September 24, 2017 by NegativeG

[Calderis]

27 minutes ago, NegativeG said:

So if a Gold compounder can heal from spiritual and physical damage, does that mean that you could use a Hemalurgical spike and steal their Gold powers and maybe their physical attributes and then they could heal from those wounds? Could you mass produce Hemalurgical healing spikes? or is the damage caused by Hemalurgy too much to heal from?

It could be healed from, but he'd need to be actively burning a metalmind while it's happening or he wouldn't survive the process. 

Quote

Kurkistan

Could Miles heal back his Allomancy if it was spiked out of him?

Brandon Sanderson

No, he could not. He would no longer be an Allomancer. Also, he'd probably be dead.

Kurkistan

Thanks!

I'd thought maybe he could just do some super-tapping from his existing Health in his goldminds (since he'd still have his Feruchemy)...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, I see what you're asking. Using Feruchemy to heal the removed portion of soul. That's actually plausible, not so different from healing other kinds of soul-wounds. If he survived, then yes, this actually might work. (That's why I get for reading the questions so quickly.)

 

Edited September 24, 2017 by Calderis

[NegativeG]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It could be healed from, but he'd need to be actively burning a metalmind while it's happening or he wouldn't survive the process. 

 

So then technically you could create an infinite number of any Gold spike, Physical attribute spike or any other hemalurgical ability spike using a gold compounder? So if you ever caught one, you would be a very powerful person.

[Calderis]

3 minutes ago, NegativeG said:

So then technically you could create an infinite number of any Gold spike, Physical attribute spike or any other hemalurgical ability spike using a gold compounder? So if you ever caught one, you would be a very powerful person.

Yes and no. You wouldn't be able to spike out an ability gained by a spike, because that power would be bound to the spike itself. 

So you could only steal the gold abilities and human traits. Additionally, the soul can scar, so repeated theft over and over would probably have some nasty repercussions that may make this method unfeasible in the long term. 

Add in the limit of 3 spikes to a person before a Shard can directly control them...

Its strong, but not as strong as your thinking. 

[NegativeG]

2 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Yes and no. You wouldn't be able to spike out an ability gained by a spike, because that power would be bound to the spike itself. 

So you could only steal the gold abilities and human traits. Additionally, the soul can scar, so repeated theft over and over would probably have some nasty repercussions that may make this method unfeasible in the long term. 

Add in the limit of 3 spikes to a person before a Shard can directly control them...

Its strong, but not as strong as your thinking. 

I see, but still, from the point of view of someone who has the knowledge of Hemalurgy and has captured a Gold compounder, they could create multiple Healing and Physical attribute spikes for either themselves or for use on other people. This makes me wonder why the Set spent more time using Miles as an operative rather than harvesting powers from him. Also is it possible to produce a compounder from Hemalurgical spikes? Obviously you couldn't harvest from them but you could create a small army of near immortal people.

[Calderis]

Just now, NegativeG said:

I see, but still, from the point of view of someone who has the knowledge of Hemalurgy and has captured a Gold compounder, they could create multiple Healing and Physical attribute spikes for either themselves or for use on other people. This makes me wonder why the Set spent more time using Miles as an operative rather than harvesting powers from him. Also is it possible to produce a compounder from Hemalurgical spikes? Obviously you couldn't harvest from them but you could create a small army of near immortal people.

As too miles... He worked with the Set, but I don't think he was a member, and I sure as damnation wouldn't want to be the one to either broach the subject of harvesting him, or capturing him. 

As to the other, a spike for gold Allomancy, and a spike for gold Feruchemy. Go. 

[NegativeG]

1 minute ago, Calderis said:

As too miles... He worked with the Set, but I don't think he was a member, and I sure as damnation wouldn't want to be the one to either broach the subject of harvesting him, or capturing him. 

As to the other, a spike for gold Allomancy, and a spike for gold Feruchemy. Go. 

The Set had multiple opportunities to capture Miles, just about any time he was with Wax's uncle they could have trapped him and had him contained. Im pretty sure that the Set considering their interest in both Hemalurgy and breeding Allomancers would have meant the risk of captruing Miles would be worth the reward of gaining both Allomantic Gold and Feurchemical Gold powers to produce compounders or even just Bloodmakers.

Also just had a thought, can you stack Hemalurgical charge in a spike? Like if you repeatedly used the same spike on the same person, provided they're a Gold compounder, could you create a spike with a powerful charge of any given ability?

I know Feurchemy is end neutral, so you couldn't make the ability more powerful with a highly charged spike, but could you create a super strong Gold Allomancer with a multiple charged spike? and the same with Physical attribute spikes?

[The One Who Connects]

So if we take this WoB at face value...

Quote

Question

Lift stands outside Kredik Shaw, her goal is to eat the Lord Ruler's lunch, can she get a way with it?

Brandon Sanderson

I think she totally can. She's Lift, she'll just get him  while he's sleeping. 

...does that mean that TLR can sleep while using his Metalminds?