How to kill a gold compounder?

[+ILuvHats]

38 minutes ago, kenod said:

First of all, IIRC terminal velocity is also based on the thickness of the atmosphere, so as you get farther away from the planet the terminal velocity should increase, lowering the time for getting to low orbit. Once outside of the atmosphere, earth's escape velocity (going with earth data as Scandrial should be an earth analog) is about 11 km/s. Assuming the a basic lashing would use Roshar's gravity as a guideline, which is about 6.867 meter per second squared (Roshar's gravity is about 0.7 Scandrial's gravity), you would need to have the lashing active for about half an hour (11000/6.867=1644 s = 27 m). From what I can find with online calculators the orbital velocity of an object at low earth orbit is around 7.5 km/s, which would mean that from low earth orbit to escape velocity would require a basic lashing for about 8.5 minutes (3500/6.867=509s=8.5m). If we take your calculations, not accounting of atmospheric density lessening as you get higher, this would mean that you need to keep a basic lashing active for about 3 hours and 8.5 minutes. While this does seem a lot, I personally have the impression that this would be realistically achievable, if you use the stormlight from one or two full gemhearts and put all that into a single basic lashing.

I think my problem is that I don't have a good impression of how much stormlight would be needed to do this.  When I wrote my post, I was thinking of when Szeth lashed a bunch of King Hanavars body guards to the ceiling of the palace, and they only stayed there for about a minute or two before falling.  I wasn't sure how much stormlight it took to do this, but since Szeth had been breathing in so much storm light from the gems on the ground I'd decided that it must have been a significant amount.  So, I'd come to the conclusion that it would take a LOT of stormlight to provide enough lashings to get somebody into orbit.  But seeing your post makes me realize that this is probably more feasible than I'd initially judged.  And of course my math was wrong.  Stupid planet, having an atmosphere that doesn't stay constant.  This is what I get for trying to sound smart.

Edited September 2, 2017 by ILuvHats

[Oversleep]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

This is mostly for completionism at this point, but if you can heal through getting the brain sliced in half, I don't think shrapnel knocking you out will do the trick either. However, brain damage isn't exactly my area if expertise to talk about.

You're still missing the point:

On 1.09.2017 at 0:46 AM, Oversleep said:

Notice this is very different from beheading - he could regrow removed head, but he can't heal the wounds with aluminum in them.

The thing is that - yes, he could live through such extreme brain damage - but first he has to be able to heal it. That's why it's different. Normally when you rip out his brain, behead him, cut into two, whatever, he can heal that.

But in the case of aluminum scattered around in his brain he can't. Not until someone rips off his head so he can grow another one. So until someone figures out that they should cut off his head (which we shouldn't allow by first eliminating his minions, just like Wax did) he'll be unable to do anything. And now that he's laying there, you can even go and take away his goldminds. Or do whatever.

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, Oversleep said:

Not until someone rips off his head so he can grow another one. So until someone figures out that they should cut off his head (which we shouldn't allow by first eliminating his minions, just like Wax did) he'll be unable to do anything.

I guess this was just me assuming that one could still do it themselves. Shrapnel is a mixed bag, so I felt it was possible that motor functions could be preserved if the shrapnel spreads differently(or further, letting that area get healed after the shrapnel goes through it) I did say I wasn't an expert on brain damage. Your thoughts?

If I'm totally wrong, then I'm wrong. But if I'm right about this, then Aluminum Shrapnel isn't a guarantee either, even if it's the best option we've come up with so far.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

On 9/2/2017 at 3:29 PM, The One Who Connects said:

I guess this was just me assuming that one could still do it themselves. Shrapnel is a mixed bag, so I felt it was possible that motor functions could be preserved if the shrapnel spreads differently(or further, letting that area get healed after the shrapnel goes through it) I did say I wasn't an expert on brain damage. Your thoughts?

If I'm totally wrong, then I'm wrong. But if I'm right about this, then Aluminum Shrapnel isn't a guarantee either, even if it's the best option we've come up with so far.

How about just stabbing an aluminum sword through his head? Then you know it's cutting through the important parts of the head. And you can hold it in place until his body dies. The only possible problem: I figure that by the end Miles was a Gold Compounding Savant, which might mean higher healing rates, higher burning rates, lower burning rates, or even instinctive compounding. If the latter, then even braindead miles should be able to heal as soon as shrapnel is removed, as long as he doesn't run out of gold (which could take a LONG time if savantism increases the rate of compounding.) As for losing his memory, I'm fairly sure that realmaticaly he wouldn't, seeing as how people don't loose their memory after they die. (Think of Kelsier). While the sword is in his head, he might be braindead, but I think that once the sword came out, the gold would heal his mind, and the memories would stay.

[Jondesu]

On 9/3/2017 at 9:26 PM, Lord Maelstrom said:

How about just stabbing an aluminum sword through his head? Then you know it's cutting through the important parts of the head. And you can hold it in place until his body dies. The only possible problem: I figure that by the end Miles was a Gold Compounding Savant, which might mean higher healing rates, higher burning rates, lower burning rates, or even instinctive compounding. If the latter, then even braindead miles should be able to heal as soon as shrapnel is removed, as long as he doesn't run out of gold (which could take a LONG time if savantism increases the rate of compounding.) As for losing his memory, I'm fairly sure that realmaticaly he wouldn't, seeing as how people don't loose their memory after they die. (Think of Kelsier). While the sword is in his head, he might be braindead, but I think that once the sword came out, the gold would heal his mind, and the memories would stay.

Aluminum doesn't work well for swords.  Too malleable, and won't hold an edge very well (someone can correct me if I'm wrong).  A simple spear made of aluminum would probably be fine, though, doesn't have to be able to cut well if you can just jam it all the way through with sufficient force.

[Calderis]

22 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

Aluminum doesn't work well for swords.  Too malleable, and won't hold an edge very well (someone can correct me if I'm wrong).  A simple spear made of aluminum would probably be fine, though, doesn't have to be able to cut well if you can just jam it all the way through with sufficient force.

Most of what we call Aluminum is actually Duralumin (cans and such). Pure Aluminum is remarkably Brittle. I wouldn't trust it for a larger weapon at all. Any small flaws and it will break apart. An actual aluminum gun... A contained explosion inside a chunk of aluminum just sounds like a shrapnel bomb. 

[Jondesu]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Most of what we call Aluminum is actually Duralumin (cans and such). Pure Aluminum is remarkably Brittle. I wouldn't trust it for a larger weapon at all. Any small flaws and it will break apart. An actual aluminum gun... A contained explosion inside a chunk of aluminum just sounds like a shrapnel bomb. 

That's kinda what I was thinking.  Perhaps a wooden spear just coated in aluminum would be enough, then?

[kenod]

33 minutes ago, Jondesu said:

That's kinda what I was thinking.  Perhaps a wooden spear just coated in aluminum would be enough, then?

Maybe use the alloy from AoL? They specifically made that alloy to be usable for both bullets and guns, and it's still allomantically inert, so it would work just as well as normal aluminum.

[Brightlord M. Alhstrom]

On 9/5/2017 at 0:42 PM, kenod said:

Maybe use the alloy from AoL? They specifically made that alloy to be usable for both bullets and guns, and it's still allomantically inert, so it would work just as well as normal aluminum.

That should work for what I mean.

However, what are people's thoughts on the Gold-compounding savant thing? Do you think I'm right? Is it possible that Miles might have had instinctive compounding, which would mean that even being braindead wouldn't work?

[FiveLate]

On 9/5/2017 at 1:42 PM, kenod said:

Maybe use the alloy from AoL? They specifically made that alloy to be usable for both bullets and guns, and it's still allomantically inert, so it would work just as well as normal aluminum.

Actually it is two separate alloys. A stronger, harder, more brittle, less ductile, less tough alloy for the gun....well at least for the barrel and breach.  A softer, less brittle, more ductile alloy for the bullet.  

If a rifle barrel and bullet are the same alloy, the rifling will be destroyed very quickly after being fired a few times and accuracy would quickly decrease.

If both were the same alloy, it would have to be a smooth bore, and the only way to get high accuracy would be to use a discarding sabot bullet, and we have not seen any evidence of that for the aluminum guns.  The coinshot and lurched painkiller rounds work on a similar physical design though.

[Jude]

No, the best way is to bring him over the ocean with metal balls attached to him and drop him in the ocean.

[Bladex454]

Just joining the thread and haven't had time to look through all the answers, but I assume a Leecher could do the job. Destroy their metal reserves and it'd probably make them susceptible to death.

[Steeldancer]

I've got a fun one. Let's squish him. Like in Indiana Jones, and Star Wars, and everything else with the contracting walls. He can't heal if he has no room to heal. If his body is flat, and the walls stay together, he's done. 

[The One Who Connects]

13 hours ago, Jude said:

No, the best way is to bring him over the ocean with metal balls attached to him and drop him in the ocean.

People on earth can escape handcuffs by breaking their wrists(and their thumb as well I think) to fit through the openings. A gold compounder can easily escape any bindings of that type, as they can heal the unnaturally bent limbs and broken bones after wriggling out of their manacles. They could also just remove the hand, foot, arm, or leg that is bound up and regrow it.

You would have to completely encase said compounder in something to prevent escape, at which point the ocean is rendered irrelevant and you have to wait for them to use up their reserves(healing through the lack of food, water, or air). Depending on what material they are encased in, they might even be able to wear it down over time, the way friction wears out a pair of jeans. Either way, they are gonna live for a long while.

12 hours ago, Bladex454 said:

I assume a Leecher could do the job. Destroy their metal reserves and it'd probably make them susceptible to death.

Leechers work on a formula(that Brandon has not saw fit to provide us with yet) where burning "X" amount of Chromium will destroy "Y" amount of Investiture Reserves. A Compounder has a lot of extra Investiture within their Metalminds compared to a normal Allomancer's metal reserves. Brandon has said that "cleaning out a compounder would take time" and that they would need to keep hold of their target while it drained the Metalminds.

What this boils down to is that our Compounder can just manually kill the Leecher while he is in close proximity to them, and their is nothing the Leecher can do about it. It's the main reason why Leechers aren't an effective counter against the Lord Ruler.

16 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

I've got a fun one. Let's squish him. Like in Indiana Jones, and Star Wars, and everything else with the contracting walls. He can't heal if he has no room to heal. If his body is flat, and the walls stay together, he's done. 

In theory, this would probably work. In practice, the biggest issues with this one are getting him into that situation to begin with, and making sure he can't escape while the walls close in.

[Yata]

I don't think an Alluminium bullet is a really issue for a ready gold-compounder.

Of course the wound is unable to proper heal unless the allumin is removed and it will cost to the Compounder a extra need of Healing for the whole process but for someone with almost an unlimited store of Healing is not a problem (or we will not be here to talk about).

An Alluminium bullet in the head it's not a problem for me (well if you shoot an alluminium bullet to me, it will be a problem) as the Mind or Cognitive Aspect is not someone who lives in the Brain in Cosmere. Someone could still think and act after his own death (Rashek and Miles exposed how far damage they could handle) and therefore the brain is not a Mind's vessel.

There is nothing who prevent you from activing your own power (if applicable to the kind of power) after your death if you are stil Connected to your physical and we saw it in BoM and I don't think a brain damage (also with alluminium) could be worst.

Edited September 9, 2017 by Yata

[+Extesian]

Yata is right about this, here's the relevant WoB

Quote

KURKISTAN

What would happen if you shot a Thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?—[Note: Brandon initially misunderstands the question, as you shall see.]

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ah, that's a good question. And, um.. the wound would not be able to heal aroundthe aluminum, but once the aluminumcame out, and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

KURKISTAN

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Oh, you're talking about Thu— Oh, okay. Yeah, ummm... It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't really have a huge effect on them.

 

[Oversleep]

8 hours ago, Yata said:

therefore the brain is not a Mind's vessel.

I don't see how did you arrive at that conclusion. The brain operates the body. If you deal such damage to it, the Compounder won't be able to move. Of course he'll be probably tapping all the time but that's why we would use aluminum which prevents wounds from healing.

[Jondesu]

30 minutes ago, Overstorm said:

I don't see how did you arrive at that conclusion. The brain operates the body. If you deal such damage to it, the Compounder won't be able to move. Of course he'll be probably tapping all the time but that's why we would use aluminum which prevents wounds from healing.

I think Yata is correct, within the Cosmere.  The Cosmere operates on different rules than our universe, namely that as Yata said, people can obviously continue thinking and in control after death, for a while depending on factors.  Crushing someone's head, destroying it, etc, wouldn't be enough for this type of healing, because the Physical component isn't doing the healing, it's what's being healed by the Spiritual Realm, via the Cognitive aspect of the person.

[18th Shard]

What about duralumin level soothing? Sustained via several soothers, so that before they can heal, they have no will or capacity to even want to heal. This would then allow multiple incinerations or the like to remove metalminds.

[ForcesOfNoodles]

How about a machine gun with atium bullets? Or alternating pewter and whatever steals Allomantic Temporal abilities? Spike him twice before he can heal his Spiritweb?

Or you can just kill them in their sleep. I'm don't think you can tap a metalmind while sleeping, but that might've just been for filling them.

[Oversleep]

3 hours ago, Jondesu said:

I think Yata is correct, within the Cosmere.  The Cosmere operates on different rules than our universe, namely that as Yata said, people can obviously continue thinking and in control after death, for a while depending on factors.  Crushing someone's head, destroying it, etc, wouldn't be enough for this type of healing, because the Physical component isn't doing the healing, it's what's being healed by the Spiritual Realm, via the Cognitive aspect of the person.

But the whole thing is designed with the premise they can continue to heal even after being shot! It's just that they cannot move anymore.

[The One Who Connects]

5 hours ago, 18th Shard said:

What about duralumin level soothing? Sustained via several soothers, so that before they can heal, they have no will or capacity to even want to heal. This would then allow multiple incineration or the like to remove Metalminds.

This is... debatable. Personally, I don't think it would work, since "the urge to heal" isn't exactly an emotion. Even if you could come up with the requisite emotions, I see three ways around this.

1. You would also have to soothe many more emotions, to placate any attempts at violence against the soothers/captors. (Mostly a resource drain, not sure how common soothers are/how expensive brass is in Era 2)
2. Kelsier could resist the Lord Ruler's mega-soothing, so a particularly stubborn individual could resist the soothing for longer. (Even more resource drain, possibly making the process fail altogether(unlikely, but it's an option))
3. You'd have to have a supremely strong soothing while you actually try to kill them, as the shock of pain/blood loss might snap them out of it. Adrenaline is a heck of a chemical. (I added blood loss for someone like Miles, who doesn't feel external pain)

There is also the "if they are already healing, it would keep going" line of reasoning, but for an extended soothing session this probably won't be an issue.

3 hours ago, ForcesOfNoodles said:

How about a machine gun with Atium bullets?

Atium is irrelevant unless it is being burned Allomantically, so this is no different from a normal machine gun. Easily healed through. And unless the bullets are low enough velocity to stay in the body, aluminum bullets are pointless as well.

3 hours ago, ForcesOfNoodles said:

Or alternating pewter and whatever steals Allomantic Temporal abilities? Spike him twice before he can heal his Spiritweb?

Unless you know the proper bind points, this method will not work. Without knowing the right place to spike out the abilities, you are forced to use the heart for both. Do you think you can drive a spike into his heart, pull that spike out, and then drive a different spike into his heart before he can start healing? This doesn't even consider the possibility that his heart may be too mangled by the first spike to function as a Bind Point anymore.

Additionally, unless you can sneak up on him, he can just start healing before you spike him and make the matter irrelevant.

3 hours ago, ForcesOfNoodles said:

Or you can just kill them in their sleep. I'm don't think you can tap a Metalmind while sleeping, but that might've just been for filling them.

Either the Lord Ruler never slept, or else you can tap Metalminds while sleeping, as he was always tapping Atium. I would not be surprised to see a Gold Compounder forgoing sleep due to the paranoia, but this is probably the best chance of sneaking up on them.

[Ethan_sedai]

if you cut him in two down the middle, and he had a metalmind on each of his arms, would each half grow back into a whole? I don't think so, because then there would be two of him. if yes, I have a way to get not only one unstoppable man, but a whole army!

[Calderis]

33 minutes ago, ethan_sedai said:

if you cut him in two down the middle, and he had a metalmind on each of his arms, would each half grow back into a whole? I don't think so, because then there would be two of him. if yes, I have a way to get not only one unstoppable man, but a whole army!

There's a WoB that's already been posted in this thread that answers your question. 

Only the larger half would heal. 

[Oversleep]

2 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Unless you know the proper bind points, this method will not work. Without knowing the right place to spike out the abilities, you are forced to use the heart for both. Do you think you can drive a spike into his heart, pull that spike out, and then drive a different spike into his heart before he can start healing? This doesn't even consider the possibility that his heart may be too mangled by the first spike to function as a Bind Point anymore.

The heart has several bindpoints. Anyway, if you're using bullets as spikes then you have to rely on luck anyway. Hope you hit a correct bindpoint somewhere.