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Faceless Mist-Wraith

Bisecting a Kandra

15 posts in this topic

If you were to cut a Kandra with two blessings perfectly in half in such a way that the other half had the other blessing, could the other half retain sentience and become its own Kandra?

The only thing I could find that was similar to this line of thought was this WOB:

Quote

Soronir

About Miles from Alloy of Law and his regenerative powers. If he was bisected down the middle and the halves were separated immediately before the healing process could begin, would the two halves each regrow into a whole Miles?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. In all of the Cosmere's Shard-based magics, the greater portion of a bisected body regrows the lesser portion. If it were done EXACTLY halfway, the soul wold jump to one or the other randomly and that would regrow.

Amusingly, this first came up in 1999, six years before I got published. (I see someone else already mentioned the situation where I had to consider it.)

However this was with respect to Miles, who didn't have an inherent ability to heal like a kandra does. He uses f-gold, which heals a person based on their spiritual template, unlike Kandra who just stitch themselves back together. 

There is also the Cognitive aspect, in that while a person's aspect seems to be linked to their brain, a Kandra's aspect seems to be linked to their spikes. This could explain why when a Kandra is cut, the severed tissue doesn't suddenly become a mist wraith. Since the piece is away from the main body, and by extension the Cognitive aspect, it simply dies off due to lack of mind and sufficient mass. If this is true then a Kandra-half may be able to retain sentience if it were to have a pair of spikes.

Thoughts? I was thinking about this mostly since there doesn't appear to be a way for the Kandra to increase in numbers other than Harmony making more, and this method would allow them to double almost overnight.

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If you split a Kandra in Half (or a Mistwrath in Half...it's the same thing). Just one of the two part will retain his Mind and Soul, the other part is just meat (with possible a Spike into).

On another note, you have to notice that also if your method will be able to craft another Mistwrath's life....Both of them will be in intense pain and barelly lucid as they will have only a Single Blessing each (without calling in all the issue with the mismatching of identity between the Spike and the new Mistwrath as it will be a new being and not the same the Spike is attuned with)

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7 minutes ago, Yata said:

On another note, you have to notice that also if your method will be able to craft another Mistwrath's life....Both of them will be in intense pain and barelly lucid as they will have only a Single Blessing each (without calling in all the issue with the mismatching of identity between the Spike and the new Mistwrath as it will be a new being and not the same the Spike is attuned with)

Kandra only require one blessing to remain sentient, so if the original Kandra had 2 blessings and was bisected, they would still have enough to remain mentally aware. It has also been shown in BoM that the Kandra have learned how to turn off their pain receptors, so this is no longer a problem.

 

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43 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

Kandra only require one blessing to remain sentient, so if the original Kandra had 2 blessings and was bisected, they would still have enough to remain mentally aware. It has also been shown in BoM that the Kandra have learned how to turn off their pain receptors, so this is no longer a problem.

 

Indeed as you read BoM, you saw how a single Spike Kandra becomes. The turning off pain receptors seems to be false as ReLuur's state without one of his spikes.

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3 minutes ago, Yata said:

Indeed as you read BoM, you saw how a single Spike Kandra becomes. The turning off pain receptors seems to be false as ReLuur's state without one of his spikes.

ReLuur suffered because he was missing half of his Blessing. What I am suggesting is having a Kandra with an extra Blessing (like KenSoon in Era 1) be the one who is cut in half, that way they would suffer minimal, if any, mental damage since they still have their base Blessing.

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5 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

ReLuur suffered because he was missing half of his Blessing. What I am suggesting is having a Kandra with an extra Blessing (like KenSoon in Era 1) be the one who is cut in half, that way they would suffer minimal, if any, mental damage since they still have their base Blessing.

This will not work as the extra Spike is not attuned to him (I placed also that problem in my first answer here). It's the reason the Kandra can't simply use old Kandra's Spikes to make new Kandra). Those unattuned Spikes are fine as "extra Spikes" (as TenSoor shows) but they can't replace a missing "base spike" (Again as TeenSoor's attempt with ReLuur shows in BoM)

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8 minutes ago, Yata said:

This will not work as the extra Spike is not attuned to him (I placed also that problem in my first answer here). It's the reason the Kandra can't simply use old Kandra's Spikes to make new Kandra). Those unattuned Spikes are fine as "extra Spikes" (as TenSoor shows) but they can't replace a missing "base spike" (Again as TeenSoor's attempt with ReLuur shows in BoM)

I'm not sure what you mean. Let's pretend for a moment that you cut the Kandra in half, with one half being Kandra A (the original), and the other half Kandra B. Kandra B, up until the bisection was Kandra A. Kandra B's identity would likely change over time, but at the time of separation Kandra B's identity would likely be the same or otherwise near identical to Kandra A's. This would mean that the extra Blessing would become Kandra B's base Blessing, essentially making it so that Kandra B spends virtually no time as a mist wraith.

The point that you keep bringing up in this case makes no sense since it is a completely different situation. In BoM, ReLuur is missing one spike from his Blessing pair. TenSoon tried to give him one spike to help him, but this did not work. The problem you are talking about only happens when a Kandra has only one spike and tries to mix Blessings, which is not the case in the hypothetical situation I am talking about.

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@Faceless Mist-Wraith Yata is right. The blessings are individually made for a specific Kandra. Reluur couldn't just replace his spike with another of the same blessing type because it wouldn't have been made for him. 

Similarly in your hypothetical, the half with the original blessing would have the spikes attuned to it, and the other, if it were somehow still linked to the Cognitive and Spiritual aspects (which I doubt and I'll explain in a moment) those spikes would not be properly attuned to the individual Kandra. 

Additionally (and this is why I don't think the previous point would work), though Kandra are near impervious to physical harm other than chemically as with acid burns, we have nothing to say they are as impervious Cognitively and Spiritually. Their reliance on hemalurgy for sapience makes me feel the opposite. 

What you're positing would not only split the Kandra physically, but in all aspects.

I believe their consciousness would remain anchored to the half with their blessing. The alternative would be splitting the Kandra in all three realms which I don't think would allow either half to survive. 

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9 minutes ago, Calderis said:

@Faceless Mist-Wraith Yata is right. The blessings are individually made for a specific Kandra. Reluur couldn't just replace his spike with another of the same blessing type because it wouldn't have been made for him.

I was not aware they were made for individual Kandra. I assumed that they were pairs of normal spikes and that if you kept the base blessings, the extras were transferable. That's how I thought TenSoon was able to use OreSeur's base Blessing without any ill effects. Would you be able to show me were this was stated?

 

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11 minutes ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I was not aware they were made for individual Kandra. I assumed that they were pairs of normal spikes and that if you kept the base blessings, the extras were transferable. That's how I thought TenSoon was able to use OreSeur's base Blessing without any ill effects. Would you be able to show me were this was stated?

I'll see if I can find a WoB, but the majority comes from BoM I believe. The situation with ReLuur and the reasoning behind why they couldn't just give him another spike that matches the blessing type. 

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6 hours ago, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

I was not aware they were made for individual Kandra. I assumed that they were pairs of normal spikes and that if you kept the base blessings, the extras were transferable. That's how I thought TenSoon was able to use OreSeur's base Blessing without any ill effects. Would you be able to show me were this was stated?

Mainly in BoM when they explains ReLuur's situation. Notice that if there wasn't that limitation, the number of Kandra would be costant as they could re-use the old Spikes to make new Kandra born or also use other kind of Spikes (Inquisitor's Spikes or Koloss' spikes) to craft new youngling.

The fact (from TFE) of  Kandra have only paierd Blessing could misdirect but indeed a Kandra could be made easly with two different Blessings' metals (for example one Petwer and another Iron) IF the Blessings are made for him (indeed I think that more than "made for him" is something on the line "that Spike was never used by someone else")

PS: In my previous post, I cited the unattuned Spike as a problem because IF your way to craft a new being works (and I doubt) the new Mistwrath will have a new Soul not a piece of the previous one. It's actually like (in Realmatic terms) if the Kandra A simply gave birth to a child, new Soul and new Cognitive...related to a some degree to the "parent" but mostly indipendent and different

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While kandra do not have "brains" they do have specialized tissue. MeLaan at one point admits that she keeps her memories in an aluminum can in her thigh to minimize the risk of damage in a gunfight. This or some other small important bit of tissue would probably be the deciding factor

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Posted (edited)

 

On 8/26/2017 at 0:52 PM, Faceless Mist-Wraith said:

If you were to cut a Kandra with two blessings perfectly in half in such a way that the other half had the other blessing, could the other half retain sentience and become its own Kandra?

I'm late to the conversation, but I actually asked Brandon this almost this exact same question at a signing a couple years ago. Long story short, it would kill the Kandra. 

From what I remember, Brandon basically said it would be an incredibly traumatic experience for the Kandra and would kill it. He also specifically said that a Kandra could not send pieces of itself off on their own to do things. 

Let me see if I can find the transcript of the signing. Paging WOB-guru @Kurkistan in case he's around and can find the relevant quotes before I can. 

EDIT: here it is (#10 on the linked page)

Quote
HEROWANNABE

Also, what would happen to a Kandra if you bisected it down the middle with half of its blessing ending up in either half?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That would be—like ripping off any other piece of it—that would be very disturbing for the Kandra. But they could reabsorb and come back together. They would not be able to function half and half, that would eventually kill them basically. They can’t like send pieces of themselves off and do things. They can be ripped apart and heal, but if you ripped them in half, that would be killing them.

 

Granted, slightly different from your question, since you specifically asked about a Kandra with 2 blessings (4 spikes), but still, there you go. I suspect that you could not create two Kandra out of one in this way- the Kandra may have 4 spikes but it still only has one soul that those spikes are connected to. When you bisect the Kandra its soul has to end up in one half or the other. 

Edited by Herowannabe
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1 hour ago, Herowannabe said:

 

I'm late to the conversation, but I actually asked Brandon this almost this exact same question at a signing a couple years ago. Long story short, it would kill the Kandra. 

From what I remember, Brandon basically said it would be an incredibly traumatic experience for the Kandra and would kill it. He also specifically said that a Kandra could not send pieces of itself off on their own to do things. 

Let me see if I can find the transcript of the signing. Paging WOB-guru @Kurkistan in case he's around and can find the relevant quotes before I can. 

EDIT: here it is (#10 on the linked page)

 

Granted, slightly different from your question, since you specifically asked about a Kandra with 2 blessings (4 spikes), but still, there you go. I suspect that you could not create two Kandra out of one in this way- the Kandra may have 4 spikes but it still only has one soul that those spikes are connected to. When you bisect the Kandra its soul has to end up in one half or the other. 

This is interesting, thank you :)

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Quote

I'm late to the conversation, but I actually asked Brandon this almost this exact same question at a signing a couple years ago. Long story short, it would kill the Kandra. 

From what I remember, Brandon basically said it would be an incredibly traumatic experience for the Kandra and would kill it. He also specifically said that a Kandra could not send pieces of itself off on their own to do things. 

Let me see if I can find the transcript of the signing. Paging WOB-guru @Kurkistan in case he's around and can find the relevant quotes before I can. 

EDIT: here it is (#10 on the linked page)

Quote
HEROWANNABE

Also, what would happen to a Kandra if you bisected it down the middle with half of its blessing ending up in either half?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That would be—like ripping off any other piece of it—that would be very disturbing for the Kandra. But they could reabsorb and come back together. They would not be able to function half and half, that would eventually kill them basically. They can’t like send pieces of themselves off and do things. They can be ripped apart and heal, but if you ripped them in half, that would be killing them.

 

Granted, slightly different from your question, since you specifically asked about a Kandra with 2 blessings (4 spikes), but still, there you go. I suspect that you could not create two Kandra out of one in this way- the Kandra may have 4 spikes but it still only has one soul that those spikes are connected to. When you bisect the Kandra its soul has to end up in one half or the other.

Thank you! This is really helpful.

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