Jump to content

Gencon Hemalurgy WoB (Random realmatic discussion)


Calderis

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, Cowmanthethird said:

This WoB is helpful, but far from definitive since its paraphrased, and the wording isn't completely clear in the first place. Just because Sel only has one focus, that doesn't mean that a different world couldn't have more than one, seeing as Sel also only has one magic system.

Click that link. The person who quoted it to you, is the person who asked it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Click that link. The person who quoted it to you, is the person who asked it. 

Well, I suppose I have to eat my words here, at least on the point of it being paraphrased. I have been following that thread, but I didn't notice that those two posts were the same person. I think the other points are still valid though.

Edit: I just went back and checked, and I don't know what you're talking about. The post in the GenCon thread was by @Landis963, who said that he was remembering it after quite a while, and the quote in this thread was by @john203.

Edited by Cowmanthethird
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Slightly unrelated comments:

1) Does anyone think that they have insight into what consitutes a 'different system' to Brandon? We know from WoBs that Sel's magics are all considered one system but Roshar's and Scadrial's are not, which is strange to me, as Sel's systems seem to be just as varied in effects as Scadrial's.

Keep in mind Scadrial has more than just Allomancy. Sel's magic is programming reality through symbols that channel the Dor, for Scadrial's magics to be considered one system you'd have to go with something rather general like using metal to perform magic which is more broad. I know this doesn't exactly shine a light on an answer but maybe it could be food for thought.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Edit: I just went back and checked, and I don't know what you're talking about. The post in the GenCon thread was by @Landis963, who said that he was remembering it after quite a while, and the quote in this thread was by @john203.

I apologize. I'm pretty heavily distracted now by a project that I didn't expect to be involved in. I was remembering both the wrong WoB, and the wrong name.

Quote

1) Does anyone think that they have insight into what consitutes a 'different system' to Brandon? We know from WoBs that Sel's magics are all considered one system but Roshar's and Scadrial's are not, which is strange to me, as Sel's systems seem to be just as varied in effects as Scadrial's.

This... This is a tough one. Because he's said on multiple occasions (usually in reference to Roshar) that it depends on how you categorize them. 

For Roshar he's said it's either 3 or 30 depending. 

He's mentioned Scadrial and said that it could be 3, but that within each you have the individual metals, and are they each a "system?" 

So it's a valid question, and one that Brandon himself has said is debatable. 

Quote

On the topic of foci, do we have any idea why the different ones are what they are? Metal is the easy one to explain away, since Ruin and Preservation created the planet with lots of metals, but why commands for Nalthis, for example? Almost every human being across the cosmere gives commands to other people or animals, so why are the ones given on Nathis special? Just something Adonalsium did way back when?

No clue. I would be super interested to know the reason. 

Edited by Calderis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hmmmm…. This thread discusses a lot of interesting topics. Very informative and entertaining – exactly what the 17th Shard should be!

Hemalurgy’s Focus

I think there’s a difference between the Hemalurgical power and Allomantic and Feruchemical abilities. IMO, Hemalurgy is not, as @The One Who Connects puts it, a "’same metal, multiple powers’ thing.”

The only Shard power involved in Hemalurgy IMO is the power to transfer innate Investiture from one person to another. Different Hemalurgical metals Focus the Hemalurgical power to transfer different grouped abilities.

For Focus purposes, I don’t think it matters that the metals transfer related abilities in groups. Those abilities stem from the victim’s innate Investiture and not the Hemalurgical power. That innate Investiture doesn’t need to be Focused. The power to transfer that innate Investiture does.

Brandon says (somewhere) that Hemalurgy is as much art as magic. IIRC, the art inheres in the knowledge of where to place the spikes. I agree with consensus that spike-placement (in both victim and target) determines the target’s abilities based on the transferred innate Investiture. But I think the metal-Focused Hemalurgical power first must make the spike capable of capturing and transferring the innate Investiture that grants those abilities.

On a related issue, I think the Hemalurgical power is available to every Shard. This WoB states Spiritual Realm powers are not of the Shards, but are “simply tools.” Shard Mandates (intents) determine how that power is accessed and expressed.

Violent metal spikes are Ruin’s expression of Hemalurgy. It’s available anywhere because of its metal Focus. Other Shards IMO also use the Hemalurgical power, but in their own way. I think simple Breath transfers are a benign form of Hemalurgy consistent with Endowment’s life-giving Mandate. One person passes his Breath, his innate Investiture, to another. I think Voidbringing (not Voidbinding) utilizes Odium’s form of Hemalurgy (a topic for another day).

Pre- and Post-Shattering Roshar

I have some quibbles (nothing big) with @Calderis analysis of Roshar's magical history. Khriss describes Roshar’s current magic as an “expansion” of its pre-Shattering spren-based magic. There are, nevertheless, some differences in the Investitures and spren available on Roshar pre- and post-Shattering.

On 8/25/2017 at 0:44 PM, Calderis said:

The natural laws of the magic centered around bonds, especially symbiotic bonds, is grown out of the nature of Roshar itself interacting with the investiture of Adonalsium (as this is a world whose systems, ecosystem, magic focus, and native life, predates the shattering.)

The “Investiture of Adonalsium” created Roshar as it originally was. That Investiture didn’t “interact” with Roshar; it built Roshar. IMO, everything Adonalsium created is “natural” simply because he created it. I think there is a “natural form of Stormlight” (by whatever name) without Honor’s Investiture. Shards later “interacted” with the Roshar Adonalsium created, and they changed things.

On 8/25/2017 at 0:44 PM, Calderis said:

for it to have developed as it has, centering around the use of ambient investiture in the form of stormlight, Adonalsium had to break off the splinter that is the Stormfather before life existed on Roshar for evolution to take the path that it has there.

Do you mean the Stormfather always existed? If so, I disagree.

Spren are personified ideas. I think Roshar needs a sapient population capable of personification before splinters can become spren. That means spren can’t form until greatshells, Aimians and listeners reach the top of the evolutionary ladder. Their collective minds then personify the highstorms into the Rider of Storms (not the Stormfather). Roshar’s Investiture always existed, but I don’t think it formed itself into spren at the beginning. I do agree Roshar’s “natural laws” made spren development possible, even inevitable.

I also agree Stormlight (as constituted both pre- and post-Shattering) is critical to Roshar’s evolution. But spren IMO reflect evolutionary development rather than cause it. I think local lifeforms must first develop sapience for spren to appear.

On 8/25/2017 at 0:44 PM, Calderis said:

The system relies on the Stormfather to feed investiture, but he predates it. The rules that govern that system are a production of investiture interacting with the shardworld, and so by being present there, he can work within the system, but he can't be fully constrained by it as he predates it. 

The Rider of Storms predates the current system, not the Stormfather. As a splinter of Adonalsium’s Investiture, the Rider may not act like the Stormfather. Stormlight now includes Honor’s Mandated Investiture. Maybe the Rider of Storms was a Dawnshard that could bind both voidish and mortal? (Another topic.) We don’t know.

I think human migration and Honor’s Investiture in Roshar converted the Rider of Storms into the Stormfather. Humans personify the highstorms differently from the listeners. Honor has made the highstorms into his perpendicularity. As Spiritual Realm Investiture passes through the Cognitive Realm’s Stormfather into Roshar’s Physical Realm, Stormlight IMO becomes Honor-laden, changing Roshar’s ecosystem from how it was pre-Shattering.

I also think, Calderis, your analysis may undermine your bond-Focus theory. The Stormfather turns raw, “consistent” Spiritual Realm Investiture – Shard power – into Stormlight, a unique form of local Investiture. I call that operation “Focusing” power, distilling it from the general to the specific. That suggests a spren – the Stormfather – is Stormlight’s Focus.

Housekeeping and Forum Etiquette

@The One Who Connects, thanks for referring to 3 of my posts! Heady stuff! I think the only other time a poster quoted a post from a different thread, they inadvertently – and wrongly – cited me as authority against myself! (That was unusual...) Does this mean I’m one of the “’big names’ on here” now? (JK.)

Like @Cowmanthethird, I’ve felt heat from those who are “frustrated” at “being right/knowing what we're talking about” who must deal with the less enlightened. I’ve been on the other side too and come across more “overconfident” than I intended…perhaps even in this post. That can be off-putting.

I value your thoughts about this and your willingness to share them. It’s a reminder that outliers and different drummers have feelings too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Confused said:

I also think, Calderis, your analysis may undermine your bond-Focus theory. The Stormfather turns raw, “consistent” Spiritual Realm Investiture – Shard power – into Stormlight, a unique form of local Investiture. I call that operation “Focusing” power, distilling it from the general to the specific. That suggests a spren – the Stormfather – is Stormlight’s Focus.

And I disagree about the Stormfather completely. 

Yes the Stormfather as we know him now is different than he was originally. But he's the source of stormlight and predates sapient thought on Roshar. 

He has a bond. A massive inseparable bond with the origin and the storms themselves. 

He is a creation of Adonalsium, as is all of Roshar. It is a world of "artifice" as commented in book. 

I agree that most spren are ideas personified. Spren as massive as the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher though, are far to complex to be a simple idea given life. I fully believe they have roles created by Adonalsium as integral parts of the world. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A few thoughts (bit of rehash and mutual agreement with general consensus);

The earlier discussion of Trellium/Trell Investing:

I recall a WoB that said Harmony was the only Shard on Scadrial at this time so I believe he would have noticed if a Shard had managed to Invest a noticeable amount of Investiture in the planet...however, as Bleeder has been Worldhopping, she could have easily acquired some Trellium from wherever its origin is, (I would find it very hard to believe that any Shard would be incapable of condensing a small part their Investiture into small nuggets of metal to smuggle from world to world, especially if they'd manage to discover the focus to Scadrial's magic).

On the subject of Foci/Focuses, I'm of the opinion that each planet only has one. Haemalurgy is a strange magic but I my head canon has always been this;

The metal type defines what trait can be taken > The blank spike is put against requisite bind point (generally heart, as my impression I've gotten via WoBs, is that it is a universal bind point) > Intent is supplied and trait/power is taken (also very important as Brandon says, you can't accidentally spike someone. I also wonder if it would work if you had the Intent to steal all of their powers or not) > (here is where things get a bit ambiguous) Filled spike is then placed against against volunteer, whether against a bind point or otherwise, and then blammo. What I'm very uncertain about if placement of the filled spike does or does not matter in the recipient (I'm inclined to say both) given the examples in both eras. After all, Spook got blessed with Haemalurgical pewter burning, but we don't know if it was through a bind point in his arm or not. (Let's not mention the chimera-esque human creations Bleeder made). Without an acupuncture-esque Haemalurgical bind point chart of the human body, we're can't really say for sure, or without any direct confirmation from Brandon/Peter themselves.

@Oversleep back to your first post. I would argue that it isn't confirmation that spikes need to be made of metal, as the person asked that question just assumed that the spikes you would have on you/would use are made of metal (as its the only material we know that is useable so far, which makes sense to be fair). We know Brandon can be very coy and Aes Sedai like sometimes when answering questions and any direct questions on the matter have been RAFO'd as I'm sure you're aware, and to me in that WoB, he is answering the question within the parameters set by the questioner and not confirming it outright.

Edited by ParadoxicalZen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, ParadoxicalZen said:

I recall a WoB that said Harmony was the only Shard on Scadrial at this time so I believe he would have noticed if a Shard had managed to Invest a noticeable amount of Investiture in the planet...however, as Bleeder has been Worldhopping, she could have easily acquired some Trellium from wherever its origin is, (I would find it very hard to believe that any Shard would be incapable of condensing a small part their Investiture into small nuggets of metal to smuggle from world to world, especially if they'd manage to discover the focus to Scadrial's magic).

Indeed it is mostly as I think except that "Trellium" was carried to Scadrial rather than Bleeder retrive it outside of Scadrial. But it's a minor difference after all and Realmatical meaningless
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/3/2017 at 0:28 AM, Cowmanthethird said:

I agree with everything you said here, I was only dismissing Sel as evidence that there can only be one possible focus per planet, since it's Shards are splintered and mingled.

Fair enough.

On 9/3/2017 at 0:28 AM, Cowmanthethird said:

I understand how this type of thing could be frustrating, but do I think that there are a couple things that are generally accepted by the community that probably have Brandon snickering behind his hand.

Don't look too far into what I wrote there. It was meant to be a general thing for why patience runs thin at times, rather than for anything specific.

On 9/3/2017 at 0:28 AM, Cowmanthethird said:

This is probably the best explanation I've heard for this yet, but it still doesn't explain why pewter spikes are compatible with eight types of Investiture, while the others are only four each (as far as we know.) I know that you can say that it's because they're both physical quadrants, but its still twice the capacity of anything else we've seen. That still bothers me, but I might not be satisfied on that point until we get a canon answer.

Less than a quarter of the capacity actually. Atium can steal all 38 known powers(17 Allomantic, 17 Feruchemical, and 4 human attributes). Pewter stealing 8 is a paltry sum. Additionally, I thought my drawing helped illustrate the idea quite well, even if Pewter was added as an afterthought. If Pewter Spikes have a certain "gateway" shape limiting what powers can fit inside it, then it stands to reason that those powers have a similar shape to them. What those powers have in common is that they are all Feruchemical Physical Powers, so the logical assumption is that there is a base "shape" to F-Physical Powers.

The fact that there are 8 instead of 4 has nothing to do with Hemalurgy at all. Feruchemy is the magic system with 2 Physical Quadrants, so the discrepancy lies within how Feruchemy came to be. Hemalurgy picked a "gateway shape" for each metal to have, and Feruchemy happened to use one of those shapes more than the others. I'll also want a canon answer, but the question that needs answering has to do with why Feruchemy has 2 Physical Quadrants, not why Pewter can steal from both of them.

On 9/3/2017 at 0:28 AM, Cowmanthethird said:

I did read this, and I don't see how it goes against anything I think. The bit that you quoted was a very short version, admittedly. We talked about this a good bit in the next couple pages though (see talking about storing stuff from the spiritweb)

It doesn't. I only brought it up because I thought it could be relevant to the discussion. Your statement was the best segue for me to use.

On 9/3/2017 at 0:28 AM, Cowmanthethird said:

Like, if Allomancy's focus is metals, steel is one 'type' of that focus. Likewise, if Forms are the focus for The Dor, then Aon Rao is one 'type' of that focus.

If Forms was the Focus for the Dor, I'd consider Aons to be one 'type' of that Focus. If Forms are the focus for AonDor, I'd consider Aon Reo as one 'type' of that focus. There's levels to this thing that don't exactly mesh perfectly with the Scadrian example.

On 9/3/2017 at 0:28 AM, Cowmanthethird said:

Thanks for finally joining in :P. I was kinda surprised when you didn't show up earlier in this thread.

I took a break from logging on. I think I lurked around.. twice in the whole of August, found nothing of note to respond to, and left. Odds are, this entire thread popped up between those 2 visits.

On 9/3/2017 at 1:23 AM, Cowmanthethird said:

Edit again: On the topic of reusing spikes, we know that its possible because the Koloss reuse theirs all the way up to the Wax and Wayne era, possibly making them 'more human' over time, per the AoL annotations (I think, it might have been the HoA annotations, I'll look for it tomorrow if anyone wants.)

I believe this one follows the same logic of why less spikes warp you less. Reused spikes have less power in them, so you are being warped by less foreign Investiture. Less warped, more human. It's the HoA Chapter Epigraphs actually. More of Sazed's speculations.

On 9/3/2017 at 9:57 PM, Cowmanthethird said:

Not even on Nalthis, just by people from there

You can give breath to a non-Nalthian and they can Awaken, so I'd be hesitant to say that only the commands given by people from Nalthis are special. I understand the point of your question, but.. we lack specifics.

16 hours ago, Confused said:

IMO, Hemalurgy is not, as @The One Who Connects puts it, a "’same metal, multiple powers’ thing.”

The only Shard power involved in Hemalurgy IMO is the power to transfer innate Investiture from one person to another. Different Hemalurgical metals Focus the Hemalurgical power to transfer different grouped abilities.

By technicality, it kinda is since one metal may steal multiple different powers, but I see your point. Not much else to argue in your post, beyond a couple more minor technicalities. Greatshells cannot reach the top of their evolutionary before Spren came to be, due to them bonding with Spren. Possibly the same with the Parshendi.

Actually, given that we know Adonalsium specifically "grew" Roshar, and that Parshendi pre-date the Shards arrival, could we assume that Adonalsium created the Parshendi race, spren bonding and all, during the creation of Roshar? This would jumpstart the origin of the Rider of Storms to the beginning so he can direct the Highstorms, and allow Spren in general to flourish while Greatshells evolve to their monstrous size.

This last one is a little less certain, but we know humans existed on Roshar before the Shards arrived. The "Stormfather" could also exist before Honor co-opted him and the Highstorms. Probably didn't, but it's technically possible.

As for you being a "big name," sure why not? You are involved in a fair number of debates, people know your name, etc.. You've got a low post count, but you also seem to only post essays, so it qualifies.

9 hours ago, ParadoxicalZen said:

We know Brandon can be very coy and Aes Sedai like sometimes when answering questions and any direct questions on the matter have been RAFO'd as I'm sure you're aware, and to me in that WoB, he is answering the question within the parameters set by the questioner and not confirming it outright.

However, unless he is referring to "several God Metals", he essentially confirmed that some of the base 16 can steal off-world powers. We've been speculating that it would have to be Atium because of it's "steal anything" quality. So either way, we got a pretty useful revelation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Oversleep said:

Care to link a source for that? Humanity spread and origins in cosmere is something of great interest to me.

It's at the bottom of my big post from the other day, but here:

Quote

-Do humans predate the two shards' arrival on Roshar (I said two since Odium arrived later, he specifically mentioned all three)  Humans were on Roshar before Honor, Cultivation, and Odium arrived.
I meant to follow this up with an Ym's "Long Trail" history vs. Alethi "kicked out of the Tranquiline Halls" history question (were there multiple human migrations to Roshar?) but completely forgot since I hadn't written it down. :-(  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/4/2017 at 2:52 AM, Calderis said:

This... This is a tough one. Because he's said on multiple occasions (usually in reference to Roshar) that it depends on how you categorize them. 

For Roshar he's said it's either 3 or 30 depending. 

He's mentioned Scadrial and said that it could be 3, but that within each you have the individual metals, and are they each a "system?" 

So it's a valid question, and one that Brandon himself has said is debatable. 

The part of it that's strange to me is that Sel's systems are definitely one, and Roshar's and Scadrial's are definitely more than one, no matter how you classify them.Though, I suppose we can just chalk this up to the fact that Sel's Shards are mashed together in the CR, until we are told otherwise.

On 9/4/2017 at 2:52 AM, Calderis said:

No clue. I would be super interested to know the reason. 

This point is fairly important for my theory, because if the foci form as a result of the Shards power interacting with the planet (as I believe) rather than only from the planet itself, then I think it is very plausible for Dishardic worlds to have a focus for each Shard that resides there (or at least ones that were there when the magic system formed, as per our discussion about trellium earlier.)

On 9/4/2017 at 8:00 PM, Confused said:

The only Shard power involved in Hemalurgy IMO is the power to transfer innate Investiture from one person to another. Different Hemalurgical metals Focus the Hemalurgical power to transfer different grouped abilities.

For Focus purposes, I don’t think it matters that the metals transfer related abilities in groups. Those abilities stem from the victim’s innate Investiture and not the Hemalurgical power. That innate Investiture doesn’t need to be Focused. The power to transfer that innate Investiture does.

Brandon says (somewhere) that Hemalurgy is as much art as magic. IIRC, the art inheres in the knowledge of where to place the spikes. I agree with consensus that spike-placement (in both victim and target) determines the target’s abilities based on the transferred innate Investiture. But I think the metal-Focused Hemalurgical power first must make the spike capable of capturing and transferring the innate Investiture that grants those abilities.

On a related issue, I think the Hemalurgical power is available to every Shard. This WoB states Spiritual Realm powers are not of the Shards, but are “simply tools.” Shard Mandates (intents) determine how that power is accessed and expressed.

Violent metal spikes are Ruin’s expression of Hemalurgy. It’s available anywhere because of its metal Focus. Other Shards IMO also use the Hemalurgical power, but in their own way. I think simple Breath transfers are a benign form of Hemalurgy consistent with Endowment’s life-giving Mandate. One person passes his Breath, his innate Investiture, to another. I think Voidbringing (not Voidbinding) utilizes Odium’s form of Hemalurgy (a topic for another day).

The only real problem that I have with this theory is that it still doesn't address the wierdness with the groupings, because the metal focused Hemalurgic spikes would still give the ability to transfer innate Investiture of different types in the same strange groupings, independent of whether its based on the Allomantic and Feurchemical properties or not. (Probably more related comments below when I get to @The One Who Connects' posts)

On the point of other Shards using Hemalurgy, I read that WoB more like: "The god-like powers that all Shards have access to are the same, but the different magic systems express different aspects of them." Meaning that while other Shards have some ability to transfer innate Investiture, it's only called 'Hemalurgy' when it's Ruin's expression of that power. I can see how it could be interpreted either way though, and this is really an unimportant nitpick.

On 9/4/2017 at 8:00 PM, Confused said:

The “Investiture of Adonalsium” created Roshar as it originally was. That Investiture didn’t “interact” with Roshar; it built Roshar. IMO, everything Adonalsium created is “natural” simply because he created it.

Thank you! This is exactly what I was trying to get at when I said 'natural' Stormlight, and I just couldn't find the words.

On 9/4/2017 at 8:00 PM, Confused said:

Do you mean the Stormfather always existed? If so, I disagree.

Spren are personified ideas. I think Roshar needs a sapient population capable of personification before splinters can become spren. That means spren can’t form until greatshells, Aimians and listeners reach the top of the evolutionary ladder. Their collective minds then personify the highstorms into the Rider of Storms (not the Stormfather). Roshar’s Investiture always existed, but I don’t think it formed itself into spren at the beginning. I do agree Roshar’s “natural laws” made spren development possible, even inevitable.

 

On 9/4/2017 at 9:10 PM, Calderis said:

I agree that most spren are ideas personified. Spren as massive as the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher though, are far to complex to be a simple idea given life. I fully believe they have roles created by Adonalsium as integral parts of the world. 

I actually agree with both of these, with only minor alteration. I believe that the integral roles that the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher fill were created by Adonalsium, but that they were originally filled by completely non-sentient Splinters, and only later became personified into huge spren (inevitably, as @Confused said).

12 hours ago, The One Who Connects said:

Less than a quarter of the capacity actually. Atium can steal all 38 known powers(17 Allomantic, 17 Feruchemical, and 4 human attributes). Pewter stealing 8 is a paltry sum. Additionally, I thought my drawing helped illustrate the idea quite well, even if Pewter was added as an afterthought. If Pewter Spikes have a certain "gateway" shape limiting what powers can fit inside it, then it stands to reason that those powers have a similar shape to them. What those powers have in common is that they are all Feruchemical Physical Powers, so the logical assumption is that there is a base "shape" to F-Physical Powers.

The fact that there are 8 instead of 4 has nothing to do with Hemalurgy at all. Feruchemy is the magic system with 2 Physical Quadrants, so the discrepancy lies within how Feruchemy came to be. Hemalurgy picked a "gateway shape" for each metal to have, and Feruchemy happened to use one of those shapes more than the others. I'll also want a canon answer, but the question that needs answering has to do with why Feruchemy has 2 Physical Quadrants, not why Pewter can steal from both of them.

I didn't count Atium on purpose, because I'm pretty convinced that either any god metal can steal any attribute, or  Atium steals every attribute specifically because it's the god metal of Ruin. Either way, Atium is outside the 'normal' rules.

I actually really do like the chart, like I said, it's the best explaination of Hemalurgy I've seen so far. The problem, however, is that I'm not completely convinced that there actually are two 'physical' quadrants for Feruchemy. The powers in the second one are vaguely physical, but they definitely seem distinct to me. Body heat production, energy/fluid consumption, healing, and breathing are all processes that Feurchemy can speed up or slow down, where as the other ones, such as strength, seem to be more like directly drawing on a reservoir to weaken or strengthen. For example, tapping strength increases the size of your muscles, not the rate of muscular growth.

Your explaination could still be accurate, but the distinction between how the two physical quadrants work is big enough, in my opinion, to warrant thinking about.

Quote

Greatshells cannot reach the top of their evolutionary before Spren came to be, due to them bonding with Spren. Possibly the same with the Parshendi.

Actually, given that we know Adonalsium specifically "grew" Roshar, and that Parshendi pre-date the Shards arrival, could we assume that Adonalsium created the Parshendi race, spren bonding and all, during the creation of Roshar? This would jumpstart the origin of the Rider of Storms to the beginning so he can direct the Highstorms, and allow Spren in general to flourish while Greatshells evolve to their monstrous size.

This last one is a little less certain, but we know humans existed on Roshar before the Shards arrived. The "Stormfather" could also exist before Honor co-opted him and the Highstorms. Probably didn't, but it's technically possible.

All of this is pretty much exactly why I think that there was a Splinter of Adonalsium doing the Stormlight thing since the beginning, but it wasn't a sentient spren until people were around to personify it.

-------

I left out all the stuff about forum etiquette because I was already quoting so much stuff, and because I've realized that most of the problem was just me reading things too harshly. Just don't expect me to stop arguing the unpopular view as long as I see good evidence.

Afterall, my avatar is a Terris scholar :P

Edited by Cowmanthethird
Grammar
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/4/2017 at 6:10 PM, Calderis said:

Spren as massive as the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher though, are far to complex to be a simple idea given life.

I agree. We call the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher “godspren” for a reason. “God” is a complex idea. I speculate these spren originally personified pre-Shattering gods of storms and the earth (or some such deities). Their complexity is why I think such spren had to await sapient populations before they formed.

I also agree with @Cowmanthethird that, instead, a “massive” unnamed splinter originally distributed Stormlight. This splinter hadn’t yet been personified into a spren. Brandon talks about the difference between splinters and spren here. Your Roshar model can still be correct whether or not the Stormfather as godspren existed from the beginning. (That’s why my earlier post says these are quibbles and not a big deal.)

On 9/5/2017 at 9:47 AM, The One Who Connects said:

Greatshells cannot reach the top of their evolutionary before Spren came to be, due to them bonding with Spren. Possibly the same with the Parshendi.

I agree. Sentience precedes sapience. As species develop, their capacities grow. Spren that personify fire, wind, and life probably came into existence with the earliest sentient life.

Even now, however, I think greatshells and listeners bond with sentient, not sapient, spren for their changes. IOW, pre-Shattering sentient spren caused the species’ evolution to sapience. Once there, these species’ can conceive and personify “god,” creating the pre-Shattering versions of godspren.

On 9/5/2017 at 9:47 AM, The One Who Connects said:

we know humans existed on Roshar before the Shards arrived. The "Stormfather" could also exist before Honor co-opted him and the Highstorms. Probably didn't, but it's technically possible.

It's unsurprising humans found their way to Roshar pre-Shattering, but I don’t fully credit this paraphrased WoB. Memory and misinterpretation can easily translate “people” into “humans.” People – sapient species like Aimians and listeners – certainly existed on Roshar then. Regardless, humans would have lacked sufficient numbers then to much impinge on the other species’ collective mind.

I also appreciate the level of your conviction…

On 9/5/2017 at 9:47 AM, The One Who Connects said:

As for you being a "big name," sure why not? You are involved in a fair number of debates, people know your name, etc.. You've got a low post count, but you also seem to only post essays, so it qualifies.

Ha! Not my ambition, especially when hardly anyone agrees with my theories. During my tenure here, I do average almost a post per week. I guess it’s true I post essays. I like to think things through and document my views. That takes space and time. I truly believe if people read my theories carefully and with an open mind, they might find a lot that makes sense – or at least gets them thinking in different directions.

18 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

This point is fairly important for my theory, because if the foci form as a result of the Shards power interacting with the planet (as I believe) rather than only from the planet itself, then I think it is very plausible for Dishardic worlds to have a focus for each Shard that resides there (or at least ones that were there when the magic system formed, as per our discussion about trellium earlier.)

I think each planet’s inherent Investiture and original “design” limit what might serve as a Focus there. The Shards adapted existing magic to form their magic systems, choosing a Focus consistent with the planet’s inherent Investiture and design. This sounds to me like Focuses develop from an interaction between the planet and the Shard, as you propose. I do think the planetary component precludes Shards who share planets to choose their own Focuses independent of the other resident Shard(s).

I explain what I think each planet’s original magic was in my Pre-Shattering Magic post. On Sel, Adonalsium Invested the ground. On Roshar, he Invested the highstorms. On Nalthis, he Invested electromagnetic radiation. On Taldain, he Invested the oceans.

Sel’s Focus is forms because the Shards IMO added their Investitures to the Investiture Adonalsium left in the ground. Shard Investiture turned topographic features rooted in the ground into the magical language that could direct and Focus the Dor. Their splintering fragmented the initial system, but I think that just created Focus “sub-types,” as you put it.

Roshar’s Focus is spren (IMO) because Adonalsium’s “touch and design” makes Roshar Realmically-permeable. Power leaks into Roshar’s Cognitive Realm and Invests ideas before the power passes into the Physical Realm. Khriss says Shard Investiture “expanded” this spren-based system to, among other things, create Radiantspren as Surgebinding’s Focus (IMO).

Nalthis’ Focus is its visualized commands, with emphasis on the visualization. I think this grows out of Nalthis’ original “quantum physics” design that I describe in the “Pre-Shattering Magic” post. Awakeners’ visualization IMO calls to mind “Schrodinger’s cat” and the ardents’ WoK experiment that fixes the length of firespren: only when an object is observed (and Cognitively “imprinted”) can its actual state be known. To imprint behavior onto the Breath of an Awakened object, Awakeners must visualize how they want the object to behave. Brandon says commands are “like your mind reaching into the Spiritual Realm and you have to like conceive something.”

Taldain’s Focus is unknown. I speculate it’s an Autonomy splinter that attaches itself to the Sand Master. I further speculate the splinter chooses its host based on the host’s degree of self-reliance. I suspect this splinter resembles Radiantspren and Divine Breath, which also choose a host based on character. Please note this is raw speculation without much evidence.

I think Ruin and Preservation’s Investiture and design of Scadrial acts the same toward later Shard arrivals. As Brandon says, Odium (and implicitly Trell) would have to substantially Invest Scadrial to influence its magic. He notes Scadrians already have an Identity tied to current Scadrial. Brandon calls Scadrial’s magic “goofy” because Scadrial is composed solely of Ruin and Preservation.

18 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

The only real problem that I have with this theory is that it still doesn't address the wierdness with the groupings, because the metal focused Hemalurgic spikes would still give the ability to transfer innate Investiture of different types in the same strange groupings, independent of whether its based on the Allomantic and Feurchemical properties or not.

The theory doesn’t have to address “the weirdness with the groupings.” IMO, those groupings are irrelevant to the issue of Focus. IMO, Hemalurgy would observe the “one Focus per power” rule even if it could transfer all innate Investitures of every kind all at once, whether Physical, Cognitive or Spiritual. Focus is a function of the Hemalurgical power itself and how Ruin chooses to implement it, not the abilities Hemalurgy conveys to the target.

FWIW, the distinction between Shard power and other Investitures underlies all my theories and causes me the most difficulties in my Forum debates. “Power,” “true Investiture,” “the godly powers,” “the energy of Shards” – whatever name you want to call it – is IMO different from the specialized Investitures power creates on each planet.

Preservation’s power created Allomancy, which relies on the Allomantic gene’s specialized Investiture to work. Preservation’s and Ruin’s combined power created Feruchemy, which relies on the Feruchemical gene’s specialized Investiture to work.

Ruin’s power created Hemalurgy, which relies on Ruin’s expression of the Hemalurgical power to work. Innate Investiture is what Hemalurgy works on. Innate Investiture confers magical abilities, but is not power itself. It is the Focused expression of power, a specialized type of Investiture. (Redundancy is why my posts are so long…)

18 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

On the point of other Shards using Hemalurgy, I read that WoB more like: "The god-like powers that all Shards have access to are the same, but the different magic systems express different aspects of them." Meaning that while other Shards have some ability to transfer innate Investiture, it's only called 'Hemalurgy' when it's Ruin's expression of that power. I can see how it could be interpreted either way though, and this is really an unimportant nitpick.

Fair enough. “Hema” makes it Ruin’s. IMO, Shai’s Soul Forgery and Shallan’s Lightweaving use the same “soul transformation” power. I take your point.

I add only that IMO other Shards all have the same ability to transfer innate Investiture, but use different means. That where the interaction of Shard and Shardworld becomes important, defining the limits of a Shard’s expression of its power on a Shardworld. Brandon says Shards may choose not to use a power because the Shard-Shardworld constraints make it too Investiture-costly for them to want to.

18 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Thank you! This is exactly what I was trying to get at when I said 'natural' Stormlight, and I just couldn't find the words.

You’re very welcome! And an upvote to you for politeness and sheer persistence!

Edited by Confused
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/21/2017 at 6:52 PM, Calderis said:

There's the WoB in question. Thank you @supersteve524

The issue I have with the idea of Bind points as the focus for hemalurgy is that, yes bind points are a variable through which the power is manipulated, but a focus is produced by the planet through which a magic system develops. If bind points were the focus for hemalurgy they would also be included in Allomancy and Feruchemy. 

The metal is the part of the magic system that actually holds the power. The bind points are needed because the power needs to be placed in the correct place to interact with the receivers spiritweb. The actual determination for what power can be stolen is the metal though. 

Bind points must have some major affect on the power stolen though. Atium can steal any power, and so unlike other metals, the bind point must be what ultimately decides what power is stolen. Otherwise, you might try to spike a mistborn or a full feruchemist, and the hemalurgy would react unpredictably.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, gaberz24 said:

Bind points must have some major affect on the power stolen though. Atium can steal any power, and so unlike other metals, the bind point must be what ultimately decides what power is stolen. Otherwise, you might try to spike a mistborn or a full feruchemist, and the hemalurgy would react unpredictably.

No, because hemalurgy requires intent. You can't steal an attribute without meaning too. Hemalurgy can't steal something you don't want, or steal something accidentally.

It requires either a proper bindpoint, or a near universal one like the heart. Plus the right metal. Plus the intent. 

Atium just removes one factor out of three. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

No, because hemalurgy requires intent. You can't steal an attribute without meaning too. Hemalurgy can't steal something you don't want, or steal something accidentally.

It requires either a proper bindpoint, or a near universal one like the heart. Plus the right metal. Plus the intent. 

Atium just removes one factor out of three. 

Mistborn era one spoilers:

 

Spoiler

Spook spiked himself without knowing what he was doing so there was no intent behind that. Only ruins control and I'm not sure if Ruin's intent would really count because spook was the one physically impaling himself...

 

im not saying I disagree with you it's just something else to think about

Link to comment
Share on other sites

54 minutes ago, Jonathon said:

Mistborn era one spoilers:

 

  Hide contents

Spook spiked himself without knowing what he was doing so there was no intent behind that. Only ruins control and I'm not sure if Ruin's intent would really count because spook was the one physically impaling himself...

 

im not saying I disagree with you it's just something else to think about

Read the annotations on Brandon's website. Ruin provided the intent. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/5/2017 at 9:52 PM, Cowmanthethird said:

I'm not completely convinced that there actually are two 'physical' quadrants for Feruchemy.

Like the "is Hemalurgy really a Metallic Art?", you'll have to take this one up with Brandon.

Quote

Zas678

Are the usual quadrants (Physical, Mental, Temporal, Enhancement) preserved in Feruchemy and Hemalurgy?

Brandon Sanderson.

No. In Feruchemy, it is based Realmatically. There is a quadrant of Spiritual, a quadrant of Cognitive and two quadrants of Physical.

Based Realmatically. Anyone else want to take stabs at the implications of this phrase? (Or is this just Realmatics in the sense of 3 Realms, 3 Quadrant Types?)


On 9/6/2017 at 3:46 PM, Confused said:

It's unsurprising humans found their way to Roshar pre-Shattering, but I don’t fully credit this paraphrased WoB. Memory and misinterpretation can easily translate “people” into “humans.” People – sapient species like Aimians and listeners – certainly existed on Roshar then. Regardless, humans would have lacked sufficient numbers then to much impinge on the other species’ collective mind.

Keep in mind that before the Shards arrived does not necessarily equate to pre-Shattering, as Odium visiting a bit later down the line shows. In this case, it probably is pre-Shattering, but that isn't what the WoB says.

Speaking of the WoB, yes, he paraphrased the answers. However, he began his post with the words "written question." Given that the question specifies humans in it, I believe that the answer is not misinterpreted.


Edit: I found a Sel WoB that I've never seen before.

Quote
Before Sel's Shards were Splintered, were the Investitures there still form-based?

Brandon Sanderson

Umm... yes. They are all programming-based. But of course, with true programming, the form doesn't matter, it's the numbers. And in this case the form does. The actual depictions do matter.

 

Edited by The One Who Connects
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The One Who Connects said:

Like the "is Hemalurgy really a Metallic Art?", you'll have to take this one up with Brandon.

Based Realmatically. Anyone else want to take stabs at the implications of this phrase? (Or is this just Realmatics in the sense of 3 Realms, 3 Quadrant Types

Perhaps a better way to phrase it would have been that I think there are significant differences between the two physical quadrents. I'm not proposing that the second one should be called something else, just that they seem to work by a slightly different mechanism, in a Realmatic sense.

Edit: Forgot half of what I wanted to say...

I think, personally, that 'based Realmatically' just means the obvious implication that the quadrents are based on the realm that is most associated with that trait. Remember that the charts are all in world constructs, and I think that we actually know more about the Metallic Arts than most people in world :P

Edited by Cowmanthethird
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Chaos locked this topic
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...