Gencon Hemalurgy WoB (Random realmatic discussion)

[Calderis]

So as to not derail the event thread further, there's a new WoB that I'll be quoting in the first post here to give proper attribution. 

Feel free to discuss. I just didn't want to keep discussing Cosmere relevant info outside of the Cosmere forums. 

Edit: the conversation has wandered to be more centered around magical foci, so if you just want to see the WoB itself, the thread probably isn't going to be very meaningful. 

If you are like me and the topic of magic systems foci interests you, well, here's as good a place as any. 

Edited August 26, 2017 by Calderis

[Calderis]

On 8/19/2017 at 10:13 AM, supersteve524 said:

Just asked this at his signing:

Q:If I wanted to hemalurgically acquire a power from First of the Sun, which metal would the spike need to be?

A:This is going to be pretty complicated, but several metals would work.

Q:Would it involve connection between the person being spiked and the bird?

A:Well it would be even harder than on Roshar, where you need to somehow spike the spren and also the Radiant.  You would need to spike the bird and steal the power, but also spike the person and steal connection.
 

There's the WoB in question. Thank you @supersteve524

41 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

I suppose I could see that interpretation, but of course my mind automatically went to the one that supports the theory I'm building. 

I think if it depended on the Aviar's power, he would have said something more like "it would require different metals depending on the circumstance" rather than "several will work"

Regardless of this context, we know that Atium, 'Trellium', and steel are all capable of stealing Allomantic steel, for instance.

As Harmony himself once said...

 

The issue I have with the idea of Bind points as the focus for hemalurgy is that, yes bind points are a variable through which the power is manipulated, but a focus is produced by the planet through which a magic system develops. If bind points were the focus for hemalurgy they would also be included in Allomancy and Feruchemy. 

The metal is the part of the magic system that actually holds the power. The bind points are needed because the power needs to be placed in the correct place to interact with the receivers spiritweb. The actual determination for what power can be stolen is the metal though. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Calderis

[Fatling]

So is he implying that there are several metals that can take both the bird's power and the person's connection at the same time? As in 1 spike, multiple powers (from different species)? Also I just realized the cosmere gets kind of complicated when animals can be invested too... I had never really thought much about that. Like the name hemalurgy implies the thing would have to have blood to be spiked, but what about creatures that don't have blood, like Lifeless that are invested but have ichor alcohol, or sandlings that have some sort of gaseous blood?

[supersteve524]

I will admit that I didn't record the questions and answers, but I typed it up immediately after my book was signed.  There might be some small changes in word choice, but I'm about 99% sure these are the words he used.  He also said that First of the Sun is weird in that the apparent magic user (the person) is different from the vessel of the investiture (the Aviar).

6 minutes ago, Fatling said:

So is he implying that there are several metals that can take both the bird's power and the person's connection at the same time? As in 1 spike, multiple powers (from different species)?

I think what he's saying but not Saying is that you might need different metals to take different powers, just like in any other magic system.  You would still need several spikes, if only because they each have a different bind point.

[Oversleep]

For complecity's sake, here's the other WoB about spiking spren:

Quote

Q: Can spren be pierced by hemalurgic spikes? Will it give some effect?

Brandon: Yes. A spren can be pierced by invested metal…

Oversleep: Could it be spiked?

Brandon: Could a spike be used to give abilities to spren? That’s not going to work really well.

Oversleep: Could you steal from a spren?

Brandon: Yes you could steal the investiture of a spren. Any investiture can be used in a spike if you know what you’re doing. It’s actually not that hard to use one on a spren.

Oversleep: Because I thought you said hemalurgy needs moving blood.

Brandon: It needs, uh, yeah…there are places where spren have more physical form, more tangible form.

Q: The Cognitive Realm?

Brandon: Yeah if you go to the Cognitive Realm on Roshar the spren act differently.

Oversleep: So you could spike in the cognitive realm?

Brandon: Yeah I’ll leave a RAFO with you on that. That’s your fifth one. So there are ways to get any investiture into hemalurgy if you know what you’re doing. But yeah this is not something that would be a common use for hemalurgy. Let’s just say that.

Oversleep: We do not concern ourselves with common uses.

Brandon: Yeah I know you don’t. But yeah hemalurgy, when you’re spiking into somebody you…you’ll see when we get around to it.

source

What else? I want to point out it's finally a confirmation that spikes indeed need to be metal and we can finally bury that non-metal spikes nonsense.

I wonder why we need to spike both the bird and the human though. I mean, it's not a pernament bond like Nahel bond or anything; Aviars can be swapped and given to other people. You could theoretically steal the power of the Aviar and spike into another bird and use that as an Aviar, I think. What do you think?

Edited August 22, 2017 by Oversleep

[AbsentKeeper]

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

but a focus is produced by the planet through which a magic system develops.

I have argued this point before, and plan to do so again soon, as I'm sure I'll reread Mistborn era 1 before oathbringer gets here. The only WoB I can find on the subject is this one, and its hardly useful

Quote

CHAOS

Why are specific focuses chosen for specific Shards? Why metals for Ruin and Preservation and not Commands like Endowment?

BRANDON SANDERSON

RAFO.

And the only in world evidence we have is from Sel, which can hardly be called normal, since it has two Shards that are mingled in the CR.

Take Roshar for example, the only other system with multiple magics that are confirmed to be different systems. The common theories are that Roshars focus is either bonds, or spren. But the issue is that neither of these are shared by the three types of magic that we've seen on Roshar.

Surgebinding obviously has both spren and bonds, but fabrials are a different story. The modern ones use spren, but require no bond of any sort unless you count 'bonding' the spren to the gemstone (which I do not, because Brandon has said that bonds require intent and the spren seems to have no say,) and the ancient types, such as soulcasters, don't use spren at all, nor do they seem to require bonds, only infused gems. The Old Magic 'binds' you to a boon and curse, and its made by a spren, I guess, but both of those are a stretch in my book.

There's definitely something wrong with the way that we understand focuses right now, and like I said, I'm going to address it in a very long post concerning Hemalurgy soon.

Also, should I hide my posts in the event thread and post them in this one instead?

----------------------

Edit: Went ahead and moved this stuff over

I've always had a pet theory in the back of my head for the focus of Hemalurgy being the bind points rather than the metal, and this actually supports it rather nicely with the "several metals would work" bit.

The main idea is that our definition of a 'focus' is as follows: The variable that you change in order to vary the effect that the magic has. E.g. you swallow different metals to gain different powers in Allomancy, but they are all metals so metals are the focus.

If multiple spikes made of different metals can be used to achieve the same result, logic follows that metal is not the focus, but rather more like the modifiers in Aon Dor. That leaves the Hemalurgic bind-points as the focus, with the heart ones always used for stealing, and various other ones each providing a unique effect for spike placement.

The way I see it, it's either that or our definition of focus is incorrect.

I think I'm going to put my thoughts together in a thread next time I reread Mistborn, but I figured I'd add it here.

Edit: I typed all that out and then forgot the main point of posting it here...

What I was getting at is that, if I am right, there still is a strong case for non-metal spikes, as the focus would not be changing, it would just be undiscovered modifiers.

I agree this WoB definitely kills the idea some people had of Hemalurgy changing focuses on different worlds though.

 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[+Extesian]

I said it on the events thread, but this does not confirm that only metal can be used for hemalurgy. It confirms that IF you use metal for hemalurgy, more than one is required as you're stealing multiple powers. I firmly believe you can only use metal. But going to another planet could add a new focus. This community has railed against using WoBs as absolute authority if there's any doubt, and I don't see that reading from the wording. 

But is it another nail in the coffin of a theory I never liked? Definitely. 

[Calderis]

50 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

I wonder why we need to spike both the bird and the human though. I mean, it's not a pernament bond like Nahel bond or anything; Aviars can be swapped and given to other people. You could theoretically steal the power of the Aviar and spike into another bird and use that as an Aviar, I think. What do you think?

If you were spiking the power into another bird I think it would only take one. 

The description of "it would be complicated" combined with a spike for both the power and the connection to that power seems like its a way to bypass the need for an intermediary and just give someone the power. 

I could be reading to much into it. Who knows, maybe there's more to the Aviar, and their ability to connect to someone to bestow the power is innate to creatures on First of the Sun, and the connection spike would be needed in addition to the power bestowed by the parasites. 

Quote

And the only in world evidence we have is from Sel, which can hardly be called normal, since it has two Shards that are mingled in the CR.

@Cowmanthethird we have more than that. Metal for Scadrial, forms for Sel, commands for Nalthis. 

Those are from Brandon. I'll try to find the thread, but the one for Nalthis was directly from Brandon to Chaos. And it wasn't for Awakening, it was "for Nalthis." The focus comes from the planet. 

Quote

But going to another planet could add a new focus

@Extesian if a focus could be added in, I still have to wonder why all magic systems don't function universally for all foci

Edited August 22, 2017 by Calderis

[Oversleep]

40 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

If multiple spikes made of different metals can be used to achieve the same result

But they cannot.

Unless you're thinking of godmetals... well, they are something else entirely.

[+Extesian]

21 minutes ago, Calderis said:

 

@Extesian if a focus could be added in, I still have to wonder why all magic systems don't function universally for all foci

Eeehhhhhh I'm probably trying to play Odium's Advocate a little to hard. I'm still not entirely convinced that there is no way round this, we don't know quite enough about focii or First of the Sun to make it inconceivable that there's another explanation that will make sense in hindsight. But as it is supporting my own belief, that metal is the only way to steal anything contained in a spirit web and pass it on, I'll stop trying to find holes

[AbsentKeeper]

43 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

But they cannot.

Unless you're thinking of godmetals... well, they are something else entirely.

The WoB at the top of the thread states that "several different metals would work" for stealing powers from an Aviar, unless you're ready to say full stop that there's no way to interpret it that way.

I would argue that god metals aren't different at all. The only god metals we have seen in Hemalurgy are Atium, which is Ruin's metal, and therefore the most compatatible with Hemalurgy, and 'trellium', which we know nothing about, other than that it can do things Harmony doesn't know about.

Edit: Oh, and @Calderis

I should have been more specific, I meant that Roshar is the only other world besides Sel (which could share focus between all systems because the two Shards powers are mingled) and Scadrial (which is the one in contention) that has mutiple magic systems to examine. Nalthis, and every other world that might serve as a 'normal' example only has one magic system.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Yata]

9 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

The WoB at the top of the thread states that "several different metals would work" for stealing powers from an Aviar, unless you're ready to say full stop that there's no way to interpret it that way.

Probably because you could use the right metal to steal the actual power from the Aviar or another one to steal the Bond from the one who is actually reciving the power from the Aviar. If you add to the result the metals that could steal everything (Atium and potentially Trellium)....You have "several metals would work".

 

Returning to the actual "Hemalurgy's Focus" you may notice that not only the Metals are always required to performe Hemalurgy but much more the Metals have to be the Metallic Arts' one to be effective but for Hemalurgy's nature (low Investiture) they are less bound to the right percentage as also a bad Spike could hold enough Investiture to be functional.

Lastly you may notice how the bindpoints comes into Hemalurgy only in the first and last stage of that magic, not always. You need to pierce the right bindpoint from the donor and the reciver but regardless...The Spike remains an Hemalurgic Spike also if left years without interact with bindpoints (potentially forever)

[Toaster Retribution]

11 hours ago, Oversleep said:

You could theoretically steal the power of the Aviar and spike into another bird and use that as an Aviar, I think. What do you think?

Wouldn't this imply that all birds in the Cosmere are able to bond humans? 

Oh, and also, the aviar get their magic from parasites. Couldn't you make very, very small spikes and spike the parasites instead of the birds?

[Oversleep]

9 hours ago, Cowmanthethird said:

The WoB at the top of the thread states that "several different metals would work" for stealing powers from an Aviar, unless you're ready to say full stop that there's no way to interpret it that way.

Well, there are several metals to steal Allomantic powers. But to steal a specific one only one specific metal works. Aviars have different powers, so it's not surprising you'd need different metals for different Aviars.

Also, as far as First of the Sun is concerned, it's worth noting that while parasites are all the same, it's the species of the bird that determines it's power.

[AbsentKeeper]

26 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Well, there are several metals to steal Allomantic powers. But to steal a specific one only one specific metal works. Aviars have different powers, so it's not surprising you'd need different metals for different Aviars.

Also, as far as First of the Sun is concerned, it's worth noting that while parasites are all the same, it's the species of the bird that determines it's power.

There all all kinds of things we don't understand about Hemalurgy. You've already stated that you don't count god metals, so I won't make that argument again, but let me instead point you to a few inconsistencies.

In Hemalurgy, steel has been shown to steal Allomantic physical powers, which we have accepted as fitting the 'one focus, one power's rule, but its not one power, its four. However, what power is granted is based on what bind point the spike was placed in, after it has been charged. Its really no different than Soul Casting Fabrials requiring different gemstones to make certain essences.

Alternatively, look at Hemalurgic pewter. According to the Ars Arcanum, it is supposed to steal physical Feurchemical powers, which makes sense until you realize that the Inquisitors have been using them for Feurchemical gold, an ability in the hybrid square of the chart.

And that's without even talking about the fact that half of all Kandra Blessing are made of Allomantic stealing metals, but they steal human attributes.

I really don't wanna get into it too much though, I wont have anything left for my theory post . 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Oversleep]

5 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

In Hemalurgy, steel has been shown to steal Allomantic physical powers, which we have accepted as fitting the 'one focus, one power's rule, but its not one power, its four.

Yeah, and? You can store different senses in tin. With steel you can still steal different physical Allomantic powers.

5 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

However, what power is granted is based on what bind point the spike was placed in, after it has been charged

The power granted depends on what the spike was charged with...? I'm not sure I follow what you said.

5 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Alternatively, look at Hemalurgic pewter. According to the Ars Arcanum, it is supposed to steal physical Feurchemical powers, which makes sense until you realize that the Inquisitors have been using them for Feurchemical gold, an ability in the hybrid square of the chart.

Yeah, that's weird. Especially when you realize Feruchemy is not categorized like Allomancy is and instead it has 8 Physical powers, 4 Mental and 4 Spiritual.

6 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

half of all Kandra Blessing are made of Allomantic stealing metals, but they steal human attributes

I'm sorry, what? Kandra Blessings are made from iron (strength), tin (senses), zinc (emotional stability) and copper (mental fortitude).

None of these steal Allomantic powers.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Oversleep

[Calderis]

7 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

In Hemalurgy, steel has been shown to steal Allomantic physical powers, which we have accepted as fitting the 'one focus, one power's rule, but its not one power, its four. However, what power is granted is based on what bind point the spike was placed in, after it has been charged. Its really no different than Soul Casting Fabrials requiring different gemstones to make certain essences.

This is incorrect. The intent and metal used at the time of theft decides the power. The bind point decides nothing.

Say you use a steel spike to steal pewter Allomancy. You place it into the correct bind point to grant the power to insure proper integration into the spiritweb. 

Placing that spike into the bind point for tin Allomancy doesn't change what the spike does, it just makes the spike do nothing (positive). 

The bind points are only needed because the powers need to be placed into the proper place to be used. The determination of what a spike does is purely a function of the metal and intent. 

[AbsentKeeper]

24 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Yeah, and? You can store different senses in tin. With steel you can still steal different physical Allomantic powers.

The power granted depends on what the spike was charged with...? I'm not sure I follow what you said.

Yeah, that's weird. Especially when you realize Feruchemy is not categorized like Allomancy is and instead it has 8 Physical powers, 4 Mental and 4 Spiritual.

 

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This is incorrect. The intent and metal used at the time of theft decides the power. The bind point decides nothing.

Say you use a steel spike to steal pewter Allomancy. You place it into the correct bind point to grant the power to insure proper integration into the spiritweb. 

Placing that spike into the bind point for tin Allomancy doesn't change what the spike does, it just makes the spike do nothing (positive). 

The bind points are only needed because the powers need to be placed into the proper place to be used. The determination of what a spike does is purely a function of the metal and intent. 

I'm going to go ahead and stop here, in the short term because I have to go to class, and in the long term because (As I said earlier) this would leave me nothing for my theory post. I'll start my reread of Mistborn and every Hemalurgy WoB I can find tonight when I get home, but it is my personal opinion, supported by quite the pile of evidence, that most of what is in these two posts claim is only assumed, and quite frequently goes against what we see of Hemalurgy in practice, and our understanding of how Realmatics works in general.

Edit: I just reread this post, and I think a bit of my assuredness movement came out. Read this about three levels less harsh than it came out, please. Haha

Edited August 22, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Oversleep]

16 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This is incorrect. The intent and metal used at the time of theft decides the power. The bind point decides nothing.

Say you use a steel spike to steal pewter Allomancy. You place it into the correct bind point to grant the power to insure proper integration into the spiritweb. 

Placing that spike into the bind point for tin Allomancy doesn't change what the spike does, it just makes the spike do nothing (positive). 

The bind points are only needed because the powers need to be placed into the proper place to be used. The determination of what a spike does is purely a function of the metal and intent. 

Bindpoints count for both theft and placing. But that's about the extent of what we know about it.

2 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

I'll start my reread of Mistborn and every Hemalurgy WoB I can find tonight when I get home, but it is my personal opinion, supported by quite the pile of evidence, that most of what is in these two posts is only assumed, and quite frequently goes against what we see of Hemalurgy in practice, and our understanding of how Realmatics works in general.

Yeah, well, my pile of evidence supports what I'm saying.

But I have only read about 200 Hemalurgy WoBs, what do I know...

[AbsentKeeper]

18 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Edit: I just reread this post, and I think a bit of my assuredness movement came out. Read this about three levels less harsh than it came out, please. Haha

 

14 minutes ago, Oversleep said:

Yeah, well, my pile of evidence supports what I'm saying.

But I have only read about 200 Hemalurgy WoBs, what do I know...

I already edited to clarify that I didn't mean this as a personal attack or anything. I fully intend to present all of my evidence together, soon, and then I'll be happy for you to tear it apart.

Oh the scholarly discourse!

The main point of that, admittedly ill conceived, post was just to point out that I have a lot more argments to make, and a lot more evidence to put forward, I just wanna save them until I can put everything together.

If I'm gonna try to change our general understanding of something this Realmatically significant, you gotta let me prepare for it. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Yata]

For sake of completeness both the bindpoint and the metal are relevant into the "stealing and gifting stages" so if we consider only this fact both could be focus.

The problem is we have not that as only fact, we have a tons of other informations. For example:

- As I said before, the bindpoints are not part of Hemalurgy for the whole "Magic's Lifespan". An Hemalurgic Spike remains a Spike without relationship to bindpoint (the timeframe between the stealing and the gifting), so between Bind points and Metals...the "part" that is more costantly related to Hemalurgy is metal.

- Also if you could argue with it, for now all the magic systems native of a planet share the focus, so if you accept Allomancy and Feruchemy as Metal based, the Hemalurgy have to be Metal based too. I forgot this before but Old Magic isn't a proper magic system. Indeed it seems to be more a specific and local effect from the Nightwatchers (in the same way the Stormfather could manipulate the Highstorm) ...so It has no need to be strictly coded with whatever the Roshar's focus is.

- We know that on Scadrial, Metals are litterally gateway to Investiture at the point to blind being with higher senses, you may see this as a separate fact from the Focus. But it's a clue about the central point of Metal in Scadrial's magic.

- We know there are multiple points for the same attribute, this alone balance the "if Metal is the focus, why Steel Spikes could steal 4 powers". But this is not really a problem as Feruchemy often allow to store diffrent kind of "sub-attributes" (without a better term) in a specific kind of Metalmind.

For now I could find a clue for the Bind Points as Focus over the Metals except the absence of an explic "Metals are Hemalurgy's Focus" WoB

[Calderis]

I thought we were beyond having to define what a focus is... Bah. 

Yes hemalurgy(Ruin) relies on bind points and intent. But it's a product of the same world and Shards as both Allomancy (Preservation) and Feruchemy (Preservation and Ruin mixed). It should have the same focus as the other two because we know they all developed together at the same time, in the same place. 

The foci are produced by the worlds, not the Shards. Ruin and Preservation in my opinion created their own world specifically so that they could choose the way they manifested themselves than having to enter know an already existing system like Roshar and thus be limited to working within prior constraints. They were able to decide the focus by building the planet to make it so. 

In Allomancy a metal chooses the effect by shaping the power. 

Feruchemy, the metal acts as a storage device for the investiture itself. 

Hemalurgy is far more similar to Feruchemy in this, as is fitting, as both involve Ruin. The investiture is again stored in the metal, and unlike Feruchemy, you can never get it out again. You need to place the spike correctly in a bind point because the investiture is in the spike and you can't extract it. Bind points aren't the focus, they're a product of it. The investiture needs to contact the spiritweb in the correct place, but you can't get that investiture out of the metal, that as the focus, makes containment of the investiture for use possible. 

Edited August 22, 2017 by Calderis

[Oversleep]

31 minutes ago, Calderis said:

I thought we were beyond having to define what a focus is... Bah.

It's a battle we have to keep fighting in. A one whose end I cannot see; lest the WoB comes.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Oversleep

[AbsentKeeper]

3 hours ago, Calderis said:

I thought we were beyond having to define what a focus is... Bah. 

This is the problem I'm having, I guess.

I don't see, at all, why this should be treated as something simple and well known. I don't even necessarily believe this theory, but I don't think that we know enough about how a focus works to claim anything for certain. Even if Brandon said the exact words "Command is the focus for Nalthis" it doesn't mean all that much, because there's only one Shard, and one magic system on Nalthis. Considering the fact that we don't have any good in text explanations of focci, and the only WoBs we have are ambiguous at best, I think its definitely worth looking in to.

Who knows? We may all have been assuming the Earth is the center of the universe, because that's where most of the data points. Meanwhile Brandon and Peter are watching us spin around the sun, laughing maniacally.

Edit: It seems like most of our differences here stem from the fact that you believe the focus is solely dependent on planet, where as I think its more likely that it stems from a combination of the planet and the specific Shard's power, thus the differences on Roshar.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Cowmanthethird

[Oversleep]

7 minutes ago, Cowmanthethird said:

Edit: It seems like most of our differences here stem from the fact that you believe the focus is solely dependent on planet, where as I think its more likely that it stems from a combination of the planet and the specific Shard's power, thus the differences on Roshar.

*cough* trellium *cough*