How would one go about killing a Compounding Spinner? (Aside from atium)

[DoctorWh0m]

On a somewhat related note, can you imagine if The Lord Ruler had known about Chromium? Then he would been both insanely lucky, and able to destroy Allomantic reserves, on top of everything else.

 

WoB is that he did. Why he didn't use it is the question...

I think the grammatically-challenged fellow above me was trying to say that he didn't want to reveal its existence to Ruin. 

 

[WeiryWriter]

WoB is that he did. Why he didn't use it is the question...

I think the grammatically-challenged fellow above me was trying to say that he didn't want to reveal its existence to Ruin. 

 

 

Ruin probably already knew, he had knew everything about Hemalurgy (bindpoints, what each spike can steal and such) so he would know what the metals are.  Also Feruchemy is also partially of him so he would probably know the same for that as well.

[Quazar87]

Ruin probably already knew, he had knew everything about Hemalurgy (bindpoints, what each spike can steal and such) so he would know what the metals are.  Also Feruchemy is also partially of him so he would probably know the same for that as well.

 

He knew,but couldn't use it. This was the same reason that TLR didn't identify duralumin mistings; he didn't want to give Ruin people to spike.

[Tarion]

Ruin probably already knew, he had knew everything about Hemalurgy (bindpoints, what each spike can steal and such) so he would know what the metals are.  Also Feruchemy is also partially of him so he would probably know the same for that as well.

Ruin may well have known.  But that's not the same as being able to make use of it.  If the Lord Ruler really wanted to keep it out of Ruin's hands, he'd have just hidden all knowledge of Chromium.  No mines and no refining process means that even if Ruin was able to find a source of Chromium (Hard, given the difficulty Ruin has with metals), it would be a very intensive process to actually develop a supply of it.  

Given the relatively tight time constraints Ruin was under, I doubt it had time to set up a whole new mine and refinery, of a metal it couldn't even locate.  

[Tempus]

Here's the big issue. Ruin can't talk, except to certain people, spiked in certain ways. Ruin can't easily communicate. The Lord Ruler, however, could control just about anyone he wanted to with a few words. 

 

So, Ruin would have to somehow exert his (relatively small) potential communication influence in such a way as to overcome the Lord Ruler's grasp enough to make a small mine, refinery, and distribute the knowledge of the metals. Seems pretty bleeding difficult when he could only talk to Vin, his central target who he spiked specifically to be able to communicate with, every so often. And not without deception either.

 

So basically, all of Tarion's points, but with the additional point that it seems to be bleeding hard for Shardholders to communicate at all, never mind one that is actively being thwarted.

[Observer]

Spinners can be killed a number of ways, but the easiest one is a Morton's Fork. Just back them into a situation where "LUCK DO3SN'T 4CTU4LLY M4TT3R", and screw them over. Remember that Feruchemy is 100% internal, it only controls their own luck. They can't get lucky and have YOU miss a shot or trip, but they can get lucky and duck your shot or trip under it. They can't get lucky and have you not find them. They can get lucky and accidentally obfuscate their location from you, but they can't actually make your bombs fail to detonate. Either set everything up so it's all about your actions rather than theirs, or force them to make a series of lifesaving decisions that inevitably backs them into a checkmate. Either way, they aren't the kinds of Twinborn you can fight without a ton of pre-planning.

[Nepene]

Get an attractive woman (or man) with a connection metal mind. Have her or her seduce the spinner.

 

Get the spinner very drunk  and have him or her 'get lucky'.

 

Then when they are disabled have a thug come kill the spinner. If they can't move far they can't use luck effectively.

 

Edit. Orrr i could just say that.

 

A Feruchemist tapping huge amounts of luck can blithely achieve the impos- sible despite nearly any odds. For every 10 charges you tap, you may re-roll one die after finding your Result but before the Outcome is described. You may tap to re-roll any number of dice in a single pool but must declare the number and consume the charges all at once, resulting in only one additional roll. The second Result stands, even if it’s worse than the first. 

 

 

They get one reroll. That's all. Chromium isn't that powerful. Suppose you have 2 physicality, and a pewter thug has 3 physicality and 7 pewter. If you roll an 11 you have a 0.0008% chance of beating them. If you roll a 12 you have a 0.007% chance of beating them. With chromium you get two chances to roll those odds. Still very bad odds.

 

You have two chances to get a 1/12 chance of it being possible to hurt the thug.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Nepene

[Observer]

I'm reasonably sure that the Board Game isn't very accurate for the sake of gaming balance. A Spinner seems to be able to increase the odds of a favorable result, or more likely and specifically: To influence the likelyhood that they themselves will take an action that will eventually become beneficial to them. When compounding, this basically means that they'll decided to heed the call of nature right before your bombs go off, unintentionally flip any coin just right to make it land well, randomly sidestep to not die or randomly flail to hit important spots, etc.

Normally this would be impossible without knowledge of how much fortune is changed by feruchemy. Fortunately (Hee hee) this is compounding. We can just assume that the Spinner's every move will be, of the thousands they can make, the most beneficial to their intent. Emphasis: Their intent. Find something they want, and keep yourself enough steps removed from them so as to prevent any of their many actions from ruining you plans, and then set things up so that their own goals lead them to their deaths. I imagine survival becomes a priority over all else the less and less likely outside forces make it, but ideally you'll have cut off all other beneficial routes by then.

They may land every shot they fire perfectly, but this doesn't matter against a team of coinshots. They may dodge your hits, but if you have a steel ferring or a zinc ferring with a gun, their twitchy dodges won't do them a whole lot of good. They will always happen to make the right decisions if they follow the luck, but sometimes there just isn't a winning move.

[DoctorWh0m]

 They will always happen to make the right decisions if they follow the luck, but sometimes there just isn't a winning move.

But the problem is that they would have their luck going constantly, meaning that they would be lucky enough to avoid getting into that situation. If they turned off their luck, and then you got them into an unwinnable situation, then they could be defeated/killed, but they'd never end up in that situation in the first place.

[Observer]

But the problem is that they would have their luck going constantly, meaning that they would be lucky enough to avoid getting into that situation. If they turned off their luck, and then you got them into an unwinnable situation, then they could be defeated/killed, but they'd never end up in that situation in the first place.

I assume survival isn't always a 100% top priority. If I currently want to win a coin flip, but doing so will increase my odds of dying by 5%, I'm pretty sure I'd still get the flip, because it's what I view as important at the moment, and cognitively consider lucky. Yes, I might be generally lucky in terms of things not working out for people, but I doubt my every tiny action would screw up assassins so far removed from me unless I was actively spending all of my time doing that. My solution is to let the Spinner focus their luck on other things, letting off some general luck, but never putting them in enough danger for their own cognitive will to decide that surviving is the top priority.

Okay, I'm explaining this poorly. Luck is subjective, and likely has to do with the cognitive of the Spinner. Of course they always want to survive, so their luck will nudge them towards doing things that keep everybody nearby off of them. But it's not going to magically stop assassin plans. The luck is based on what you're already doing. You were already going to flip that coin, it just changes how you yourself choose to flip it. You were already going to pick a side for their coin, but this time you happened to say it in an influential way. I don't think it physically makes you do anything very different, so your luck can only go so far in screwing up your attackers if you aren't actively wandering around and trying to wreck their plans. So long as you keep yourself far enough removed from the Spinner and don't give them a reason to suspect or even a tiny chance for them to do so, it's possible to make them choose to do things that they themselves want, but rig the endroad to harm them.

I know this is a crappy example, but say they want to win the lottery, and of course they do because they manage to arbitrarily pick the right ones. But as they go in, once again following what they want, namely to get the money, you block off the area they're in, once again keeping your men from ever being seen. No matter what actions they do on the way to the money, no matter how they trip or laugh, they're not changing your far-removed plans to surround them. It's not changing. Now say you know where they are because of cameras. Again, not much their luck can do to stop this from happening. Now you know exactly where they are, and they can't leave because you've set up a Cadmium perimeter with Coinshots and gunmen outside. You are now in a position to whoop their lucky butts.

Okay, horrible example aside, see how this could be done? I doubt your luck can extend very far into the future, and there's only so much your sneezes can do to mess up an attacker's plans if they stay far enough away from you.

[Nepene]

I'm reasonably sure that the Board Game isn't very accurate for the sake of gaming balance.

It's the best guide we have on it.

 

A Spinner seems to be able to increase the odds of a favorable result, or more likely and specifically: To influence the likelyhood that they themselves will take an action that will eventually become beneficial to them. When compounding, this basically means that they'll decided to heed the call of nature right before your bombs go off, unintentionally flip any coin just right to make it land well, randomly sidestep to not die or randomly flail to hit important spots, etc.

Their powers are more limited than this.

 

dumb luck makes up for any lack of skill. Tapping heaps of fortune elevates a character to something akin to an epic hero, able not only to trust in a bigger plan to take care of their needs, but to rely on the favor of gods as a palpable source of support.

 

 

The rpg describes luck mechanics in depth. These are their powers. Tapping feruchemy allows you to maximize your spirit.

 

Spirit defines a character’s intuition and sensitivity to the world. By trusting his or her gut, or having faith in a greater destiny, a character can sometimes find answers in unlikely places. 

 

 

They can ask the narrator what to do, get intuition.

 

Providence smiles on everyone eventually but some Heroes know just when (and how) to ask. A character may attempt a Spirit Challenge to add or modify a crucial  detail about the current situation. The Difficulty is based on the detail’s impact on the conversation or plausibility in context (the more it changes things or the less likely it is, the harder the Challenge). Each Nudge spent on a successful roll allows the character to add one new (not altered, but new) detail that’s directly caused by the first addition or change.

 

 

They can alter details in a situation, like finding a cabinet contains weapons.

 

 Negligible / Believable: Mild inclement weather starts up or the color of a lady’s dress is different than it was 2 Minor / Reasonable: A guard leaves his sword belt unbuckled or an  earthquake rocks the base of an ashmount 3 Significant / Dubious: A guard leaves his sword hanging on his chair or the character produces an item he or she never mentioned before 4 Major / Unlikely: A guard falls asleep on the job or that key the character found just happens to work in this lock 5 Radical / Far-Fetched: A noble house alarm fails just as the Crew makes its escape or a mistwraith arrives the moment before a gravely wounded  character is attacked by a superior opponent (and now everyone has to deal with the creature)

 

 

They can push beyond their limits.

 

A character may attempt a Spirit Challenge to recover one of his or her  Resiliences that’s been reduced by damage or other factors, and which is  currently 5 or lower (this option isn’t available with a Resilience of 6 or higher, as a  character in that position isn’t really defying the odds to keep going). The Difficulty is equal to the current Resilience score (minimum 1), and with success the character  

 

 

And they can reroll, without bonuses.

 

Only a character with six or more dice of Spirit may call upon this  option. So long as this requirement is met a character may spend 1 Spirit to retry any roll. The character gains no dice from Traits, Tools, Circumstances, or other modifiers, though penalties still apply as before (a last ditch effort is an act of pure willpower). The new Result replaces the original one, even if it’s worse, and the Outcome is decided accordingly. 

 

 

They also have these abilities.

 

• Intuit the correct answer from two or more conflicting ones • Keep your composure in the face of great adversity • Find a purpose against overwhelming odds • Convince someone of a larger plan for them or the world • Catch a lucky break • Commune with metaphysical powers • Understand the nature of your destiny or the universe

 

 

They don't have the ability to enhance their combat rolls, always choose the correct answer, or anything like that. With lots of chromium they would have powerful versions of each of these abilities. Tapping lots of chromium just gives them another roll.

 

If they choose to trust their gut they can be safer. They can escape from a dangerous situation early. But again, their powers are sharply limited.

 

This is likely built as such so that chromium isn't the only good power.

Edited March 26, 2014 by Nepene

[Tempus]

Seems to me like the easy way to beat a Compounding Spinner would be with feruchemical zinc - mental speed.

 

We don't know if the Mistborn game is correct in the narrative interpretation of spinning, but it certainly could be. In a nutshell, it is as follows:

 

1. ) Spinner's luck makes events that occur more favourable to the Spinner. This is as the game describes. A compounding spinner would presumably be surrounded by events at 'class 5 - radical/far-fetched', all the time.

 

That begs the question 'What decides what is a good outcome and what is a bad one?'. We know that in realmatics, intent is very important to the interpretation of many realmatic powers (healing, Returned, Commands, Aons, etc..). We also know that objects charged with realmatic sentience often have no ability to judge complex situations beyond their basic intent (Nightblood, Syl, Pattern). So, the most likely scenario is that Spinning produces a result based on what the Spinner imagines would be the most favourable outcomes. It uses the Spinner's intent to manifest.

 

So how does feruchemical Zinc trump this? Easily. You trick them. If a Spinner believes that a good outcome is bad from them, or a bad outcome good, you render their spinning not only null, but actually beneficial towards your plans. Mental speed is exactly what you need to do this - you simply outsmart the Spinner and let them kill themselves off. This could be assisted or replaced by other abilities that would help you in tricking them - feruchemical connection storage, Rioting or Soothing come to mind as ways to assist in manipulating a Spinner.

 

Some might argue 'but if a spinner is so lucky, you wouldn't be able to manipulate them at all!' Remember, Spinning can only grant luck when the intent of the Spinner has an idea what form that luck would take, probably subconciously, similar to Gold healing. So if it did not enter the Spinner's mind that he was or could be being manipulated, they would not luck out and avoid it. Even if it did, they would have to have some sort of idea as to how a lucky scenario could get them out of the situation.

 

So, outsmarting the intent of the Spinner is sufficient to counter any luck-based options they might have.

[Vizier]

If the Lord Ruler really wanted to keep it out of Ruin's hands, he'd have just hidden all knowledge of Chromium.

You, know, thinking about it, this probably explains why it took so long to find Chromium within the story.

[Observer]

My biggest problem with the MAG is that it makes Luck external. Everything about Feruchemy is about you. Even connection sounds more like you the Feruchemist themself is perceived. It makes no sense for Luck to be able to suddenly make a guard fall asleep compared to the other metals. As I've said before, I highly doubt that you could make an opponent trip from the other end of the room with a sudden burst of your own luck, without actively moving things around to do so. It's your fortune, not their misfortune. Based on what we know of how Feruchemy is internal, I don't see how a Spinner could make an opponent miss them. They can dodge perfectly, Atium-style, but they can't make the attack trip and throw the wrong direction entirely. It just doesn't fit.

[DoctorWh0m]

It could be that Chromium is changing something about you, which then affects others; a sort of set level of luckiness in your interaction with everything else, which is amped up or down.  Kinda like how brass and zinc are Internal metals, but still allow you to affect others. 

[PorridgeBrick]

Brass and Zinc are external in Allomancy, actually.

[Observer]

EDIT: Okay, I just got ninja'd kind of didn't notice the next page I'll shut up now.

 

I guess that's where my whole theory stems from I guess. I bank almost my whole thing on luck being an internal thing, if what's being stored is even actually luck at all. Still, cognitively, you should still be able to lure people to their deaths using what they believe to be favorable outcomes right up until it's too late for luck to matter.

 

Also, totally OT, but what's the MAG say about FeruNicro?

Edited March 27, 2014 by Observer

[Tempus]

Chromium is in Spiritual, though, and the spiritual realm has to do with the connections between things. That could very well have fortune as a part of it.

[Nepene]

EDIT: Okay, I just got ninja'd kind of didn't notice the next page I'll shut up now.

 

I guess that's where my whole theory stems from I guess. I bank almost my whole thing on luck being an internal thing, if what's being stored is even actually luck at all. Still, cognitively, you should still be able to lure people to their deaths using what they believe to be favorable outcomes right up until it's too late for luck to matter.

 

Also, totally OT, but what's the MAG say about FeruNicro?

 

Feruchemists use Nicrosil to store “investiture,” or their  connection to the source of metaphysical power (in Feruchemy, this means the deepest recesses of the self). Even the most learned Feruchemical scholars don’t fully understand the nature of this ability, but some believe stored investiture is the rawest form of personal potential — the primal root of a Feruchemist’s ability. In practical terms, this exceedingly rare metal grants a  character the very potent ability to transform a stored characteristic — such as weight, strength, sight, or the like — into a “generic” source of power called “ investiture.” The Feruchemist may then tap investiture to augment nearly any other tapped ability, from physical strength to mental speed and beyond. In this way investiture is the most potent enhancement available in Feruchemy, a reserve of pure, universal power that can amplify nearly any Feruchemical effort. The promise of Nicrosil becomes even more astounding if you consider it in relation to one of the incredibly powerful sources of power in the Final Empire (such as the Well of Ascension or the mists). Theoretically, a character exposed to one of these might be able to transform and store its seemingly limitless power, putting near-godlike power at his or her disposal. Fortunately, no Feruchemist in known history has been in this situation, but if ever there was something for the Lord Ruler to strive for... 

 

With chromium you store an internal attribute that you can use for external effects- you store your spirit, your connection to the metaphysical, which connects you to the beat of the story. You can likewise store your strength or speed and then have external effects.

[DoctorWh0m]

Brass and Zinc are external in Allomancy, actually.

Herpy derpy derpy derp. God, I'm an idiot.

[Observer]

Thanks a ton Nep!

 

I guess this is where we just fundamentally disagree. I could rehash points on Chromium and other metals, but I guess in the end it doesn't matter much. My favored method is still to trick them into luck-bringing their way into a corner from which no amount of luck will matter.

[The Allomantic Metalhead]

1. Acquire other Chromium Compounder.

2. Make him store a truly insane amount of luck.

3. Make him compound it all.

4. Profit.

[Quickbronze]

The short answer: Pray and hope Harmony favors you. If he doesn't, well... I hear Marsh throws good parties.

The long answer: Try to exploit an intrinsic weakness in the workings of Chromium, like these gents have proposed. However, because we don't know what these weaknesses are or even if they exist, a plan such as this isn't possible to detail right now. 

Edited November 10, 2017 by Crimson Not Blood

[CaptainRyan]

On 3/26/2014 at 5:54 AM, Nepene said:

It's [Mistborn RPG] the best guide we have on it.

I disagree with this statement. Brandon has explicitly said that the MAG is not canon and that the people who make the game are the ones who decide what the powers do. It is not a guide any more than if I wrote up a bunch of rules for how Chromium works. See this section in Arcanum: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/179-mistborn-secret-history-explanation/#e3734

Quote

#5Feb. 5, 2016 Share

Phantine

Do the other uses for those metals [nicrosil, aluminum, duralumin] currently in the RPG also work in-universe, or are they just there for RPG mechanics?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the things in the RPG books relating to the metals that you don't see in the books fall under the "We need to make a game out of this somehow, Brandon" clause. I've told them they can extrapolate if they want, but that I wouldn't consider their extrapolations cannon.

Herowannabe

So does that mean that these metals will be getting updated rules in a future RPG supplement?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a possibility. I've said before that you should consider any games you play to be in an alternate dimension anyway, where the rules work slightly differently, and your players can control the fate of what is going on. Plus, it will be years before I can get to the nature of all this in the next trilogy, so we'll see how relevant it all is in five years or so.

 

[Blacksmithki]

What would happen with his luck if you conflict their interests? Would it focus exclusively on the higher priority or split?

Also, how does the luck choose how to go about it's goals? Does it choose the most likely option or the option that they want most with their sub-priorities?

if it chooses the most likly way to achieve their highest desire, it's pretty simply to kill them, they don't want something to happen to them? Make it more simple probability that they die instead of you stopping that thing, especially if it is internal luck.

If their luck splits with conflicting priorities then it's also pretty simple, just provide conflicting goals with living and whatever else they want.

Also, in theory, it's really unlikely but possible you just shooting them will kill them, I see their luck as sort of if they have a 1/10 to live, they now have a 1/1.000000001 to live, but not 1/1.