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[Secret History Spoilers] Mormonism and Scadrial


MPHRD

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8 hours ago, Extesian said:

If you left that cake alone long enough, which wouldn't take too long for a cake because people don't look at cake and think "Oh, a bunch of wheat and flour." They think "Cake." That thing will start having a combined soul of the various bits of power, and the longer you leave it, the more permanency it's gonna have as a Spiritual artifact in the cosmere.

So, yes, cake has a soul.

So if you eat the cake fast enough, without thinking about it as anything other than a bunch of wheat and flour, you could eat before the disparate parts of the soul fuse together and become the soul of the cake?  He says it does not take long, but that it takes time at all means you could change its form and identity again before it has had the time to reclassify itself internally as something else...

 

It likely would not be pleasant.  Eating cake straight out of the oven before it has time to cool or view itself as cake sounds painful and traumatic.  For the cake.  And the eater.

 

I wonder how that mid transition transition would appear in the cognitive realm?

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I think that your mouth in the Physical Realm would lose more in that exchange than the maybe-cake's Cognitive identity. But I volunteer myself to test this out, as long as someone is willing and able to observe from the Cognitive side as I eat the new cake. The things I'll do for scholarship. xD

On 1/15/2018 at 7:19 PM, AC12 said:

Not to dig up an old topic, but I just barely found this thread, and as a Mormon, let me just say I really appreciate the respectful and well educated discussion of our beliefs. The 17th Shard has officially renewed my faith in the internet!

One thing (among many) that's cool about Brandon's writing is how he draws inspiration from his own beliefs and from other things that have interesed him. And once you start noticing these things, it encourages you to look up the sources for yourself. For a personal example, I got interested in Korean history and culture after reading The Emperor's Soul where he mentioned that a lot of his inspiration for Soulstamps (and for that matter, lots of ideas for Sel generally) came from his time in the country as a missionary.

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I got to say, just read through this and thank you for the polite and respectful discussion. Religion is a touchy topic and its nice to see people being respectful of a religion that is often disrespected, especially by Christians. One thing I want to hit on that wasn't mentioned:

At the end of Hero of Ages, Sazed takes the information of all the religions of his copperminds and realizes that there is truth in every religion, and uses that knowledge to recreate the world as it was before Rashik messed it up. This is a belief that is a basic tenet of LDS faith--that after the death of Christ and his apostles there was a mass apostasy, where the pure doctrines and beliefs that Christ had taught eventually became corrupted by the plethora of social philosophies and other religions present around them. While there were many well-meaning men who tried to return the doctrine to what it was during Christ's day, LDS followers believe that the authority of God was lost and without that authority men were left to their own devices to worship. Much like we see with the arguments over the Survivorist faith in Hero of Ages and between that book and Alloy of Law.

The reason I took the time to explain this above paragraph is that one of the basic LDS tenets is that while the Priesthood (the authority I mentioned) was gone, the truth still remained. It got buried and crowded in a lot of philosophy, mysticism, and introduction of other cultures and religions, but it still existed. All religions have truth in them, but we believe that there was eventually a Restoration of truth at the hands of Joseph Smith, which is why LDS preach that we have the "fullness of truth," and why we revere him as a prophet.

This was one of the points that made the Ascension at the end of HoA so profound for me.

And as for becoming gods...well, that's something we generally classify as "deep doctrine", which is a subcategory of doctrine that is not clearly understood and has been subjected to a lot of speculation and theory, but has only cursory mentions in scripture. That said, we do believe in something called "eternal progression," which means that if you're faithful and keep your covenants, you can one day inherit "all that the father has." We generally interpret this to mean that we can potentially become gods, and that all of us on this earth are gods and goddesses in embryo, so to speak.

Finally, to reference one thing not mentioned yet:

On 8/17/2017 at 8:31 PM, MPHRD said:

one of the most well know part of Mormonism is the Golden Plates. Mormons believe that Joseph Smith, a Mormon prophet found golden plates with the Book of Mormon on them. In the book of Mormon proper, a variety of metal plates are also used to write down stories. What does this remind you of? It reminds me of the metal plates used through out the books to hide and protect writing from shards. Kwaan, Spook and other write important things in metal plates. Even in era 2, I think metal plates are used for important things like constable badges.

The "golden plates" is actually a misnomer. They were brass. But the important thing here is that in the Book of Mormon, the plates were used to have a lasting record. Metal lasts a lot longer than wood or paper, so you're right that that's not a coincidence. In the Book of Mormon, those metal plates contained both spiritual and mundane things. What you call the "Book of Mormon proper" was actually a compilation of records created by a man named Mormon, and finished by his son Moroni after he died. It's very much like the Bible in that regard.

Well done, though @MPHRD. I applaud you being so respectful and not sensationalizing some of the more radical points of our religion. As has been said, this has been, from what I see, a very respectful and thoughtful thread.

Have a cookie.

Spoiler

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Well, respectfully, @Alderant there were some pure Gold Plates, but they were what we know as the book of Ether. There were also other plates that were made up of a mixture of Gold and other metals. There were many plates in records that make up what we know as the Book of Mormon. "The various plates and records referred to in the Book of Mormon and used in making it are (1) the plates of brass; (2) the record of Lehi; (3) the large plates of Nephi 1; (4) the small plates of Nephi; (5) the plates of Mormon; and (6) the twenty-four gold plates of Ether."

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Book_of_Mormon_Plates_and_Records

Edited by Ammanas
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13 minutes ago, Ammanas said:

Well, respectfully, @Alderant there were some pure Gold Plates, but they were what we know as the book of Ether. There were also other plates that were made up of a mixture of Gold and other metals. There were many plates in records that make up what we know as the Book of Mormon. "The various plates and records referred to in the Book of Mormon and used in making it are (1) the plates of brass; (2) the record of Lehi; (3) the large plates of Nephi 1; (4) the small plates of Nephi; (5) the plates of Mormon; and (6) the twenty-four gold plates of Ether."

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Book_of_Mormon_Plates_and_Records

You are correct. Thank you for the clarification.

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6 hours ago, Alderant said:

At the end of Hero of Ages, Sazed takes the information of all the religions of his copperminds and realizes that there is truth in every religion, and uses that knowledge to recreate the world as it was before Rashik messed it up. This is a belief that is a basic tenet of LDS faith--that after the death of Christ and his apostles there was a mass apostasy, where the pure doctrines and beliefs that Christ had taught eventually became corrupted by the plethora of social philosophies and other religions present around them. While there were many well-meaning men who tried to return the doctrine to what it was during Christ's day, LDS followers believe that the authority of God was lost and without that authority men were left to their own devices to worship. Much like we see with the arguments over the Survivorist faith in Hero of Ages and between that book and Alloy of Law.

The reason I took the time to explain this above paragraph is that one of the basic LDS tenets is that while the Priesthood (the authority I mentioned) was gone, the truth still remained. It got buried and crowded in a lot of philosophy, mysticism, and introduction of other cultures and religions, but it still existed. All religions have truth in them, but we believe that there was eventually a Restoration of truth at the hands of Joseph Smith, which is why LDS preach that we have the "fullness of truth," and why we revere him as a prophet.

This was one of the points that made the Ascension at the end of HoA so profound for me.

YES!!!!! That's what I loved about HoA too!

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Something that I love about Brandon is that in his stories gods are real. In a lot of books and a ton of movies atheism (which isn't a bad thing) is being overstated. The gods are false, or don't even exist. Demons and devils do exist, horrible things exist, but there aren't any gods to bring you life, light, or hope.

Brandon is different. I remember being struck by reading Elantris, especially while watching Hrathen and the priest discuss their religions. That an author would be so open minded, so ready to get down and dirty about the nature of truth blew my mind. Religion is a huge part of the cosmere and it's history, and so are it's gods (the shards). In some places it isn't known that they exist, in others they are worshiped, but they are gods never the less. I think that acknowledging the fact that a god might exist, or even that a God might exist, is a powerful step forward in more intricate story-telling and worldbuilding. 

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1 hour ago, I am Witless said:

Something that I love about Brandon is that in his stories gods are real. In a lot of books and a ton of movies atheism (which isn't a bad thing) is being overstated. The gods are false, or don't even exist. Demons and devils do exist, horrible things exist, but there aren't any gods to bring you life, light, or hope.

Brandon is different. I remember being struck by reading Elantris, especially while watching Hrathen and the priest discuss their religions. That an author would be so open minded, so ready to get down and dirty about the nature of truth blew my mind. Religion is a huge part of the cosmere and it's history, and so are it's gods (the shards). In some places it isn't known that they exist, in others they are worshiped, but they are gods never the less. I think that acknowledging the fact that a god might exist, or even that a God might exist, is a powerful step forward in more intricate story-telling and worldbuilding. 

I think that's a hallmark difference between epic fantasy in general and most modern fantasy. Even in the Wheel of Time, where religion is practically non-existent, the presence of a god (the Creator) is so hardcoded into the logic of the world that you never doubt that he exists, even if he never involves himself in the story. Belief in a higher power or deity is a powerful motivator and aspect of humankind. I think it's often stereotyped or idealized in high fantasy (e.g., all orcs worship gruumsh, and such), but one of the reasons I love epic fantasy, Brandon's Cosmere in particular, is that religion is not just a thing or trait--it has impact, it profoundly affects the characters' lives, and often has impact on the world at large as well.

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43 minutes ago, Alderant said:

religion is not just a thing or trait--it has impact, it profoundly affects the characters' lives, and often has impact on the world at large as well.

The first cosmere books I read were the Mistborn ones and what struck me was how large a roel religion played. In the very first book, the uprising of skaa was lead by the "reappearance" of Kelsier to create the belief system of the Survivor. That whole conversation with Kelsier and Sazed about why faith was such a drive/motivation for people.

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Just now, ryshadium90 said:

The first cosmere books I read were the Mistborn ones and what struck me was how large a roel religion played. In the very first book, the uprising of skaa was lead by the "reappearance" of Kelsier to create the belief system of the Survivor. That whole conversation with Kelsier and Sazed about why faith was such a drive/motivation for people.

Mistborn was my first, too, actually...It went Mistborn (all 3), Elantris, Warbreaker, then SA (which is when I started getting into the Cosmere). The one that really got me in The Final Empire was the variety of belief systems Sazed kept talking about. I took notes! (I never take notes) I thought it was fascinating.

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