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Was it wrong to bond the Stormfather?


Agewalker

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I was recently re-reading the ending of Words of Radiance, particularly the scene where Dalinar speaks his first/second ideals, thus becoming a bondsmith. However, he joined with the Stormfather, who was against this, and reacted angrily upon Dalinar's speaking the First Ideal.

While I was reading, it occurred to me that in the Wheel of Time series, forming a similar bond to create an unwilling Warder was seen by the characters as little better than rape, due to the man's inability to resist the bond.

 

Essentially, Dalinar has forced an ancient and sentient spren into a mental and magical bonding without it's consent or agreement, forcing said spren to provide him with the ability to control Stormlight, and at the same time, putting the Stormfather's very existence into danger if Dalinar abandons his vows.


In your opinion, was this an immoral action?

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The Nahel bond requires mutual consent. If there is a power forcing the bond, it is the part of the Stormfather that is Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow. 

Dalinar could not force the bond. If he could, there would be no need for surgebinders to attract a spren in the first place, they'd just speak the first oath. 

Edited by Calderis
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I think that as @Calderis pointed out the Stormfather could not simply be corralled into a bond that he did not desire. There is a clear give and take to the relationship that they are now a part of. Dalinar may get the power to surgebind, but he is limited by the will of the Stormfather in that he has no shards. He has not taken control rather he has made a connection which allows the Stormfargerto fulfill its prime imperative to bring the KR back into existence by establishing a leader to head them.

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1 minute ago, Nathrangking said:

Dalinar may get the power to surgebind, but he is limited by the will of the Stormfather in that he has no shards.

This isn't just "the Stormfather's will." there's some reason here that we don't know yet. No Bondsmith ever had shardblades. 

And I can't find the WoB where he says that. Bah. 

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In any case the relationship is similar to that of the average spren the main difference being that the Stormfather is magnitudes more powerful than the average spren. I personally think that tavanast's imperative is what sealed the deal.

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1 hour ago, Calderis said:

This isn't just "the Stormfather's will." there's some reason here that we don't know yet. No Bondsmith ever had shardblades. 

And I can't find the WoB where he says that. Bah. 

From Leipzig

Quote

Q: As it is ornamented in such a way... Could it be related to a Bondsmith?
A: Bondsmith's didn't have Blades.
Q: All of them? It's just... Maybe it was just the Stormfather...
A: No. That's a really good guess. Really good guess. I'm gonna RAFO Bondsmiths because you gonna learn a lot about them in the next book because it's the Bondsmith's book. That's a really good theory, but it's not true. But there's a reason to it, why it has all the 10 orders.

Spren and Radiants can differ on the meaning of the oaths but I think once the bonding process has started (which is the choice of the spren) they must maintain it as the oaths are said. This WoB establishes the choice, the question is whether once the bond has started, a spren can pull out or refuse the oaths. I think not. 

Quote

BRANDON SANDERSON

Nyeaaahhh... The spren still has to choose. If you want to be a Surgebinder, the choice is being made. You can't fake your way into it. Decision and Honor are too much a part of Surgebinding for you to be able to fake your way into that. Other magics you might be able to do that. Other magics that don't require, like, Surgebinding works because a piece of Honor or Cultivation or a mix has chosen you specifically. There is will from the actual Investiture involved in it in Roshar.

DJARSKUBLAR

Okay.

 

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@AgewalkerI do remember having had to think about it for a sec before I remembered that, unless something really crazy is going on with Stormfather and he can't consent, Stormfather consented because the Nahel bond requires consent. (Hope that makes sense!)

However, I do think you are thinking along the right lines with regard to bonds and consent. Given the Everstorm, a possibly not-so-nice side of fabrial science, and the very word "Voidbinding," I believe the relationship between bonds, bondage, and consent will absolutely be explored soon, probably starting in Oathbringer. 

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13 hours ago, Calderis said:

This isn't just "the Stormfather's will." there's some reason here that we don't know yet. No Bondsmith ever had shardblades. 

And I can't find the WoB where he says that. Bah. 

As seen above he has confirmed they didn't have blades. Which makes me wonder what Bondsmith Herald was like, and what his honorblade was like.. All the other orders make sense to me to an extent, linking with the herald, apart from the Bondsmith Herald. What was he and how does he link with this small order. An order of kings (i'm sure they were generally treated as kings, with always one seated upon the throne etc etc) whom all bonded 'god-spren' but where did that leave the herald as leader? The rest clicks, but this order/herald interaction puzzles me...

I look forward to book 3 which will hopefully answer many of my queries! Not long now! :D 

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3 hours ago, Velvet Thunder said:

As seen above he has confirmed they didn't have blades. Which makes me wonder what Bondsmith Herald was like, and what his honorblade was like.. All the other orders make sense to me to an extent, linking with the herald, apart from the Bondsmith Herald. What was he and how does he link with this small order. An order of kings (i'm sure they were generally treated as kings, with always one seated upon the throne etc etc) whom all bonded 'god-spren' but where did that leave the herald as leader? The rest clicks, but this order/herald interaction puzzles me...

I look forward to book 3 which will hopefully answer many of my queries! Not long now! :D 

Thats a question that has been bugging me for a while, as Bondsmiths seem to be the KR leaders, but the Bondsmith Herald was not the leader of the Heralds, rather it seemed to be the Windrunner Herald was the leader. Of course we saw so little in the prologue it could have been misunderstood. 

What I am curious to find out is how easily a Bondsmith can break their oaths and what that would do to their spren. We have already seen both Kaladin and Shallan kill their spren, but personally I found it particularly tough for Kaladin/windrunners, who did it mostly by accident; while for Shallan it was much more on purpose. 

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3 hours ago, Calderis said:

@WhiteLeeopard I don't think Shallan actually broke her Oaths. If so Pattern should have been trapped as a blade. 

I think that in repressing her memories, the bond just degraded. It's a subtle difference, but for Pattern, I think it's a very important one. 

Yes, true, sometimes I feel I forget the most obvious points ^^.

But then that goes on to enhance my original point. I know this has been discussed multiple times, but basically seems windrunners can kill their spren by accident, and others like lightweavers need to do it fully on purpose. Curious to see where the bondsmiths fall on that spectrum. 

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14 hours ago, Velvet Thunder said:

As seen above he has confirmed they didn't have blades. Which makes me wonder what Bondsmith Herald was like, and what his honorblade was like.. All the other orders make sense to me to an extent, linking with the herald, apart from the Bondsmith Herald. What was he and how does he link with this small order. An order of kings (i'm sure they were generally treated as kings, with always one seated upon the throne etc etc) whom all bonded 'god-spren' but where did that leave the herald as leader? The rest clicks, but this order/herald interaction puzzles me...

I look forward to book 3 which will hopefully answer many of my queries! Not long now! :D 

Well they didn't so much have a blade as much as a giant tube of superglue and enormous roll of duct tape.

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13 hours ago, WhiteLeeopard said:

Thats a question that has been bugging me for a while, as Bondsmiths seem to be the KR leaders, but the Bondsmith Herald was not the leader of the Heralds, rather it seemed to be the Windrunner Herald was the leader. Of course we saw so little in the prologue it could have been misunderstood. 

Perhaps it is misunderstood, but guiding and uniting is just a small aspect of leadership. Protecting, which is emphasised by the windrunners is equally important. Remember we haven't seen all the oaths yet. The first windrunner oaths correspond to Jezriens attribute of protecting, but the others could be related to leadership and that's not inconsistent with the character of Kaladin. It may be the case that bondsmiths had a valued advisor type of position consistent with Ishars attributes of pious and guiding. Remember as well, Dalinar was in the highest position of leadership we've seen from a radiant long before he became one.

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On 8/17/2017 at 5:23 PM, WhiteLeeopard said:

Yes, true, sometimes I feel I forget the most obvious points ^^.

But then that goes on to enhance my original point. I know this has been discussed multiple times, but basically seems windrunners can kill their spren by accident, and others like lightweavers need to do it fully on purpose. Curious to see where the bondsmiths fall on that spectrum. 

I don't think the Bondsmith spren can be killed, at least not through the breaking of oaths, unlike the spren of the orher orders.  The quote below heavily implies that that all 3 of the Bondsmith spren survived the Recreance (guessing this is due to how powerful their minds are):

From WOR, ch. 75, Pattern discussing the effects of the Recreance to Shallan:

'"Not just one people,” Pattern said, solemn. “Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance.”'

Now are the Bondsmith spren messed up in the head/emo/crazy as a result of the Recreance?  Probably (see: Stormfather).

Edited by phoenix2563
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6 hours ago, phoenix2563 said:

rom WOR, ch. 75, Pattern discussing the effects of the rwcreance to Shallan:

'"Not just one people,” Pattern said, solemn. “Many. Spren with minds were less plentiful then, and the majorities of several spren peoples were all bonded. There were very few survivors. The one you call Stormfather lived. Some others. The rest, thousands of us, were killed when the event happened. You call it the Recreance.”'

Now are the Bondsmith spren messed up in the head/emo/crazy as a result of the Recreance?  Probably (see: Stormfather).

I never really thought of the wording here.  Patter says "Some others".  If only the Godspren survived, and there were 3 of them I would expect him to say Two others.  This is a subtle indication we missed I think, that the Skybreakers survived.  Either that or some of the other spren were strong enough to survive, but we're really messed up.  

Edited by FiveLate
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2 hours ago, FiveLate said:

If only the voidspen survived, and there were 3 of them I would expect him to say Two others.

To be clear, the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher at least (2 of the 3 Bondsmith spren) are NOT voidspren.  My understanding is that they are concentrated investiture of Honor and Cultivation respectively (well the Stormfather may also contain a sliver of Honor and/or merged with Honor's cognitive shadow but that is another topic).  Voidspren are of Odium alone and provide the investiture that voidbinding requires (ie the magic of the Voidbringers).  The Bondsmith spren based on my understanding are more like extremely invested spren, aka god spren.

Edited by phoenix2563
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On ‎8‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 4:02 AM, WhiteLeeopard said:

Thats a question that has been bugging me for a while, as Bondsmiths seem to be the KR leaders, but the Bondsmith Herald was not the leader of the Heralds, rather it seemed to be the Windrunner Herald was the leader. Of course we saw so little in the prologue it could have been misunderstood. 

What I am curious to find out is how easily a Bondsmith can break their oaths and what that would do to their spren. We have already seen both Kaladin and Shallan kill their spren, but personally I found it particularly tough for Kaladin/windrunners, who did it mostly by accident; while for Shallan it was much more on purpose. 

I have a head canon on this:

Basically, the orders were formed as spren learned to do for men what the honorblades do for heralds. The surgebinders then sought out the patronage of the heralds that had powers correlating to their own. The heralds adopted the orders over time, some weren't as enamored by the idea of underlings as others: "And thus were the disturbances in the Revv toparchy quieted, when, upon their ceasing to prosecute their civil dissensions, Nalan’Elin betook himself to finally accept the Skybreakers who had named him their master, when initially he had spurned their advances and, in his own interests, refused to countenance that which he deemed a pursuit of vanity and annoyance; this was the last of the Heralds to admit to such patronage."

It seems to me that Nalan only took in the Skybreakers in order to enforce the law upon the Revv toparchy. Regardless, the orders petitioned the heralds, and the heralds eventually accepted them. However, this means that there was a time when the orders existed before having patrons: the spren chose what type of surgebinders to bond to (determining a general set of character traits for the members of each order) and the patrons were chosen based on their powers, not their personalities, which may or may not have been similar to the spren ideals of the given order.

The heraldic structure doesn't necessarily correlate to the hierarchy of the orders either. Jezrien was the leader of the heralds, while bondsmiths were leaders of the Radiants, and were led by Ishar. Again, that was determined by the correspondence of their surges, not personalities.

-- end head canon --

On an unrelated note, my gut feeling is that the blade with all 10 orders engraved was simply decorated as a political / idealogical statement, and isn't an honorblade or special in any other way.

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On 2017-08-17 at 3:22 AM, Extesian said:

Q: As it is ornamented in such a way... Could it be related to a Bondsmith?
A: Bondsmith's didn't have Blades.
Q: All of them? It's just... Maybe it was just the Stormfather...
A: No. That's a really good guess. Really good guess. I'm gonna RAFO Bondsmiths because you gonna learn a lot about them in the next book because it's the Bondsmith's book. That's a really good theory, but it's not true. But there's a reason to it, why it has all the 10 order

So every book focuses on an order each? I did not realize this before, that's interesting.

Either way, like other people suggests I guess the Stormfather had to consent to the bonding but perhaps not with enthusiasm. I imagine Dalinar is going to have a pretty hard time. I doubt the Stormfather is going to be ordered or "utilized" as say Pattern or Syl. Especially since he might have gone through a Recreance already personally if I understand it correctly? It will be interesting to see exactly how that dynamic is going to work out.

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26 minutes ago, Penumbra said:

So every book focuses on an order each? I did not realize this before, that's interesting.

Yep, every book has a focus based on Order. WoK cover (not the dust jacket but the actual hard cover) is Blue and the symbol on it is the Windrunner glyph. WoR is Red with the Lightweaver Glyph. This is supposed to continue through all 10 books/orders. 

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10 hours ago, Calderis said:

Yep, every book has a focus based on Order. WoK cover (not the dust jacket but the actual hard cover) is Blue and the symbol on it is the Windrunner glyph. WoR is Red with the Lightweaver Glyph. This is supposed to continue through all 10 books/orders. 

But...red isn't the Lightweaver's color, right?  Aren't they silver?

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